From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Apr 2 17:07:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA02526 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 17:07:57 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id QAA26798 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:55:02 -0600 Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:55:02 -0600 Message-Id: <199804022255.QAA26798@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #705 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, April 2 1998 Volume 01 : Number 705 In this digest: Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) IN> Spicing up the Game Re: IN> Spicing up the Game Re: IN> Spicing up the Game IN> The Fall, Dinosaurs, and Eden Re: IN> Love, Hope, & Mysteries IN> The Fall, Dinosaurs, and Eden Re: IN> The Fall, Dinosaurs, and Eden Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) Re: IN> basic rule book Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) Re: IN> Spicing up the Game Re: IN> History Re: IN> The Fall, Dinosaurs, and Eden Re: IN> The Fall, Dinosaurs, and Eden Re: IN> Spicing up the Game Re: IN> The Fall, Dinosaurs, and Eden Re: IN> History Re: IN> History Re: IN> basic rule book Re: IN> History Re: IN> History Re: IN> History Re: IN> basic rule book Re: IN> Love, Hope, & Mysteries Re: IN> The Fall, Dinosaurs, and Eden Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) Re: IN> basic rule book Re: IN> The Fall, Dinosaurs, and Eden Re: IN> The Fall, Dinosaurs, and Eden Re: IN> The Fall, Dinosaurs, and Eden IN> Creativity ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 19:40:24 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) >In a message dated 98-04-01 11:53:46 EST, armand@spiretech.com writes: > ><< I just have the feeling that things would be a bit more canstrained if the > history was more defined. >> > >Not an unreasonable position. I think I see how it might be addressed. > >Now, most IN material has been written from the "third-person omniscient" >viewpoint, where the author is speaking ex cathedra, as it were. Such >writing baldly defines canon. > >But suppose the supplement was written in first-person viewpoint? > >Imagine a mortal researcher who has (somehow) become aware of the >existence of the celestial realms. [Snip - lots of good support along a logical thought line] > >Comments? > >---------- >Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, freelance writer, amateur >historian, science fiction fan, occasional scribbler of bad poetry >JFZeigler@aol.com >"Never speak for others. You can get in enough trouble speaking for yourself." I could handle a history that's written from this perspective. However, it doesn't sound very source bookish to me. It could be written as a piece of fiction. The problem would come when you made the NPC write ups. All the characters would need a history. The history is the thing that would ruin it for me. I suppose that you could avoid the whole issue by just writing the base personality and general likes/dislikes. The question then becomes: would this be a history? I think that it all remains a more cooperative thing if the history maintains its elasticity. We can all sit around and toss about ideas of why Dominic hasn't Fallen yet, and not be bogged down by rule lawyers. I'm just an idealist here I suppose. Armand ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 20:27:17 PST From: "Peter Martin" Subject: IN> Spicing up the Game Has anyone tried using stuff like music, props, etc to spice up their games? I tried adding music to one of my sessions a while back (in GURPS, not In Nomine) and my players were delighted. In particular, I've found a mix of Metallica, Christian Rock, and Celtic music works really well. Any thoughts? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 22:03:46 -0500 From: "David C. Shadle" Subject: Re: IN> Spicing up the Game > Has anyone tried using stuff like music, props, etc to spice up their > games? I tried adding music to one of my sessions a while back (in > GURPS, not In Nomine) and my players were delighted. In particular, I've > found a mix of Metallica, Christian Rock, and Celtic music works really > well. Any thoughts? We've used Celtic, Instrumental Soundtracks like Braveheart, NIN, and even some Swing. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 01:21:48 -0500 (EST) From: Dan Ozdowski Subject: Re: IN> Spicing up the Game According to David C. Shadle: > > Has anyone tried using stuff like music, props, etc to spice up their > > games? I tried adding music to one of my sessions a while back (in > > GURPS, not In Nomine) and my players were delighted. In particular, I've > > found a mix of Metallica, Christian Rock, and Celtic music works really > > well. Any thoughts? Seanmike uses the soundtrack from "The Lost Highway". Of course, it was competing with noise from the DISHWASHER! Lemme tell you, that dishwasher just makes me wanna bust some demon heads....ambiance indeed. :) Dan Ozsodwlowski Ahem - Dan Ozdowski PS - I just left that first one in there because that's the worst I've ever managed to mangle my own name. That was beyond the "delete" key... - -- "Oh great, Carmen's gonna be walking down the street and a group of Geisha girls are going to run up and kick the crap out of her for doing a booty shake during an ancient Japanese dance" - Singled Out ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 02:00:18 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: IN> The Fall, Dinosaurs, and Eden On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Julian Breen wrote: > So, when DOES the Fall take place exactly? Well, according to the APG, > several millenia passed peacefully immediately afterward, before the > infernals discovered the Marches, learnt how to assume mortal form, > escape Hell, and return to earth. Then along came the Grigori. In the history I worked out for my game (which predates the APG), Lucifer's Fall was the asteroid that hit the Earth and caused the extinction of the dinosaurs. Not only does it provide for wonderful metaphor, it elegantly illustrates how God uses Lucifer to further His plans. The dinosaurs -had- to die, you see, so that mammals could become dominant and eventually evolve into humanity. It was their Destiny. (Of course, Eden wasn't really a place; it was more like a state of being. Before the Apple, humanity was pure and innocent; it was in Eden. Of course, now that it's been mythologized into a garden paradise, Eden now exists in the Marches. It's still closed off, guarded by a cherub with a flaming sword, probably a ranking Servitor of Purity.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:30:47 +0200 (MET DST) From: David Skogsberg Subject: Re: IN> Love, Hope, & Mysteries On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 6:15 PM -0600 4/1/98, John L Veazey wrote: > >sorry, didn't mean to post this. > > Darn. It looked evocative, though I was trying to figure out > Choirs, Bands, and/or Superiors... O;> If you listen to it, it is even more evocative... It's hard to describe, but it's a duet(?), with a 'bright' voice for the "stay with me" bits and a 'darker' voice for the "back in your own world" parts, making the lyrics very different if you really listen to them as compared to just listen to the 'sound'. /cd, slightly incoherent due to 3 cans of Jolt and 2 cans of Mtn. Dew and a lack of sleep. - -- d97skog@dtek.chalmers.se | cd skogsberg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:47:01 +0200 (MET DST) From: David Skogsberg Subject: IN> The Fall, Dinosaurs, and Eden On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Casca wrote: [Snip] > (Of course, Eden wasn't really a place; it was more like a state of being. > Before the Apple, humanity was pure and innocent; it was in Eden. As a slight aside to this, has anyone considered (of all things) Frank Belknap Long's _The Hounds of Tindalos_ as a source of ideas for this? It's mentioned in the story how "the apple, the fall...were all metaphors for something unspekaable". It also has a very nasty entities to whack hubris-stricken sorcerers with - the Hounds of Tindalos mentioned in the title. I will try to write some more coherent stuff on the perils of too closely perusing the past (how it's protected by some of God's more... unsavory servitors, straight from the Higher Heavens, among others), using not only _the Hounds..._, but also Clark Ashton Smith's _The Plutonian Drug_ and _The Chains of Aforgomon_. > [Eden]'s still closed off, guarded by a cherub with a > flaming sword, probably a ranking Servitor of Purity.) Not named Aziraphale, by any chance? cd - -- d97skog@dtek.chalmers.se | cd skogsberg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:59:12 EST From: JFZeigler Subject: Re: IN> The Fall, Dinosaurs, and Eden In a message dated 98-04-02 02:04:43 EST, bertishg@db.erau.edu writes: << (Of course, Eden wasn't really a place; it was more like a state of being. Before the Apple, humanity was pure and innocent; it was in Eden. Of course, now that it's been mythologized into a garden paradise, Eden now exists in the Marches. It's still closed off, guarded by a cherub with a flaming sword, probably a ranking Servitor of Purity.) >> Now there's an interesting notion. I think I'll steal it for my group. . . - ---------- Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, freelance writer, amateur historian, science fiction fan, occasional scribbler of bad poetry JFZeigler@aol.com "Never speak for others. You can get in enough trouble speaking for yourself." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:59:39 EST From: SienarFLT Subject: Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) In a message dated 98-04-01 19:15:26 EST, you write: > But suppose the supplement was written in first-person viewpoint? > > Imagine a mortal researcher who has (somehow) become aware of the > existence of the celestial realms. He may have come into direct contact > with one or more celestials -- they haven't told him much, but he knows > about the War. The historical material in the supplement is written from > *his* point of view, possibly with guarded commentary from his celestial > friends. This would be an excellent idea if SJG eventually decided to publish IN fiction, novels, etc. (and I am aware of the problems they have to get through first before being able to do this). But such history, from anyone's perspective, would really NOT be useful to me IMC. Entertaining, yes, but not very useful. As other people have commented already, I really don't want to see how many major, or minor earthly events have been influenced either angelically or diabolically. And the vignettes and little tidbits of celestial history that are fed to us through the Cycle books are just factual and vague enough to let GM's take what they want and run with it. Let me clarify that I am a GM who does NOT have a lot of time to go writing his own adventures and history. I DO manage to do it in "bits" though for each session, so that my own stories grow in an organic sort of way, whatever that means :-) but I do manage to work through my own interpretations of history (often turning canon on its ear more and more these days). So that those of you who complain about not having time and want this-and-such published and prepared ahead of time and spoonfed to you, I sympathize, I really do. But it would take me longer to delve through these history sourcebooks and absorb what I'm reading, than it would take me to prepare the plot line for my next session. All IMHO of course. -- Thom D. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:06:44 EST From: SienarFLT Subject: Re: IN> basic rule book In a message dated 98-04-01 21:23:09 EST, you write: > Isn't this the "buy more stuff" fix rather than fixing and reprinting > what is out now? That really disgusts me. Well, there is always the FAQ and errata online for you to look at. Frankly though I am more likely to buy a gamebook that has the corrections included with more new stuff rather than a 2nd ed that has all the errata sorted out. > As a college student I am on a very limited budget and spend as little > as possible on unessential items. As a result I really wish that the > editors at SJG would get their acts together and do a book right on the > first time rather than proposing a fix or errata in a new book. > While SJG has great concepts in gaming I fear that the quality of the > company suffers a great deal because of poor editing. One need only > look at the In Nomine main book, the APG, or the original printing of > INWO to verify this. Um, maybe I'm totally off when I say this, but I have never bought a game product which has NOT had a 2nd or subsequent edition printed sometime after. This is not something which plagues SJG alone. Having had only a little experience in printing and publishing, these things just happen, no matter how many editors pour through the material. -- Thom D. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:15:30 EST From: SienarFLT Subject: Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) In a message dated 98-04-01 22:41:12 EST, you write: > We can all sit around and toss about ideas of > why Dominic hasn't Fallen yet, By the Pit! You mean I haven't been consorting with him all this time down here in Shal-Mari. Darn those Balseraphs of Kobal! -- Thom D. (reply to SienarFLT@aol.com) Impudite of Peanut Butter in service to Haagenti, or ... Mercurian of Lost Endings in service to Yves ... I just haven't made up my mind yet! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:18:41 EST From: SienarFLT Subject: Re: IN> Spicing up the Game In a message dated 98-04-01 23:34:36 EST, you write: > Has anyone tried using stuff like music, props, etc to spice up their > games? I tried adding music to one of my sessions a while back (in > GURPS, not In Nomine) and my players were delighted. In particular, I've > found a mix of Metallica, Christian Rock, and Celtic music works really > well. Any thoughts? As a matter of fact one of my players has programmed into his huge multi-CD turntable of doom, a specific In Nomine selection of music which includes among other things Sting's "St. Augustine in Hell." -- Thom. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 09:26:57 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> History JFZeigler wrote: > Problem with this approach is that it's been done already. Depending > on your assumptions, you may end up with Bishop Ussher's old figure > of 4004 BCE for the Creation. Which doesn't fit the canon very well > no matter how you slice it. > > I know this will sound strange coming from someone who's been asking > for closer ties between IN canon and historical sources. . .but I > suspect a lot of Genesis has to be treated as myth, even in a game > that assumes angels and demons are real. Not necessarily. A lot of work has been done by folk trying to find a reconciliation between Genesis and science, and this can be adopted by an IN GM. For instance, you can re-interpret the genealogies that otherwise put the origin of humanity somewhere around 4000 BC. In Biblical language, any ancestor on the male line, or even any male ancestor, can be one's "father" in an extended sense, so that, when Genesis says that X became father to Y, this can mean that X started the line of descent that led to Y. Likewise, the six "days" of creation do not have to be taken as consecutive 24-hour periods (especially since the sun doesn't show up until the fourth "day" and Genesis 2 speaks of the whole creation process as one "day"). Even the Flood becomes more managable if you assume that, when it happened, humanity occupied a relatively small part of the Earth's surface, and the Flood covered only the occupied part. Candidates include the Mediterranean basin, the Black Sea basin, and the Persian Gulf basin (my favorite), all of which have been dry at various periods in the recent geological past. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:04:10 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> The Fall, Dinosaurs, and Eden On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, David Skogsberg wrote: > > [Eden]'s still closed off, guarded by a cherub with a > > flaming sword, probably a ranking Servitor of Purity.) > > Not named Aziraphale, by any chance? I hadn't decided upon a name. Any particular reason why you thought of this one? It sounds familiar.... - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 10:27:52 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The Fall, Dinosaurs, and Eden Casca wrote: > > David Skogsberg wrote: > > > > [Eden]'s still closed off, guarded by a cherub with a > > > flaming sword, probably a ranking Servitor of Purity.) > > > > Not named Aziraphale, by any chance? > > I hadn't decided upon a name. Any particular reason why you thought of > this one? It sounds familiar.... Aziraphale was the main angelic character in "Good Omens" by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman, recommended in the IN bibliography. He is described as the angel stationed at the gate of Eden with the flaming sword. Being a softie, he gives the sword to Adam as they leave the garden, since the poor sod has nothing to defend against animals or make a fire with, including a clue. "And the Lord said unto the angel, Where is the flaming sword that I gave unto thee. And the angel answered, saying, I had it here a minute ago, can't think what's become of it, be forgetting my own head next. And the Lord did not ask him again." - -- from a translation that Aziraphale helped proofread. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:51:52 -0500 (EST) From: Highway Star Subject: Re: IN> Spicing up the Game According to Dan Ozdowski: > Seanmike uses the soundtrack from "The Lost Highway". I thought it was *so* appropriate for Feast of Blades. > Of course, it was competing with noise from the DISHWASHER! > Lemme tell you, that dishwasher just makes me wanna bust some > demon heads....ambiance indeed. We can arrange that, tongue boy. Dan here is the guy who loves whacking people with mind hits until they're unconscious and insane.:) Of course, though, I think that a running dishwasher would be good background for any servants of Vapula running around... SeanMike - -- __^\ | SeanMike Whipkey |"I let my mind wander __/ *--|--Perth| Professional Student|and it never came back." / \ | GWAR Cyberslave | - Calvin, - --------- | Too Much Free Time?!| "Calvin&Hobbes" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 11:11:56 -0500 From: Jesse Subject: Re: IN> The Fall, Dinosaurs, and Eden Casca wrote: >(Of course, Eden wasn't really a place; it was more like a state of being. >Before the Apple, humanity was pure and innocent; it was in Eden. Of >course, now that it's been mythologized into a garden paradise, Eden now >exists in the Marches. It's still closed off, guarded by a cherub with a >flaming sword, probably a ranking Servitor of Purity.) A: Why do you think it was an apple? B: It is actually guarded by cherubim with a flamming sword, seems Heaven had a shortage of weapons. C: Why Purity? Why not Dreams or Destiny? - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:19:57 EST From: MarkDEddy Subject: Re: IN> History In a message dated 4/1/98 6:25:17 PM, jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk writes: >Have any of the folk on this list got more information on lifespans in >years of some of these guys? Noah, Enoch, and Adam for example? (It >might thus be possible to place a time on events such as the Flood.) This is all off the top of my head, so I could be off by a century either way. That said: Adam c. 950 years Seth c. 900 years Methuselah c. 1200 years Enoch "called to heaven" @ c. 800 years Noah c. 666 years These are just examples. Prior to the Flood, humans (according to Genesis) lived between 800 and 1200 years. After the Flood, there was a rapid degeneration to a 70-100 year lifespan. Mark(but this is just what the Bible says) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 11:27:08 -0500 From: Jesse Subject: Re: IN> History >Even the Flood becomes more managable if you assume that, when >it happened, humanity occupied a relatively small part of the >Earth's surface, and the Flood covered only the occupied part. >Candidates include the Mediterranean basin, the Black Sea basin, >and the Persian Gulf basin (my favorite), all of which have been >dry at various periods in the recent geological past. But civilization did not grow just in the Mediterranean. In fact there were 5 "primary" civilizations, the Nile River Valley, the Tigris River Valley, the Indus River Valley, along the Yellow River in China, in what is now Mexico and Latin America and in what is now Peru. It is believed that these civilizations rose independent of each other at about the same time. So if the flood struck at the dawn of civilization it would have to cover all those places. On the other hand this is fantasy role playing so maybe there was a corrupt, large empire at the time of the flood and that the flood destroyed all the remains of it for man, but the celestials still remember. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 11:52 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> basic rule book [Note that although I sometimes write for SJGames, I'm not an employee, and don't speak for them.] >>There is some stuff in the APG and forthcoming IPG (at the printers) >>which may help -- flip through the back of the APG and check, maybe? > >Isn't this the "buy more stuff" fix rather than fixing and reprinting >what is out now? That really disgusts me. Unfortunately, the economics of the gaming industry is such that there's simply no way they can afford to do this until the initial print run is sold out. >As a college student I am on a very limited budget and spend as little >as possible on unessential items. As a result I really wish that the >editors at SJG would get their acts together and do a book right on the > first time rather than proposing a fix or errata in a new book. This is certainly preferable. However, SJGames does a fairly decent job, in my opinion, relative to most of the rest of the industry. At least they publish FAQs and errata.... There's actually very little errata fixed in the subsequent IN books (I can only think of 1 or 2 items); there *are* a few clarifications of things that caused a lot of questions. This is mostly a consequence of having to fit everything into a limited space. You can't cover everything in detail. And sometimes you just don't think of something as unclear, and the playtesters don't notice it either. >While SJG has great concepts in gaming I fear that the quality of the >company suffers a great deal because of poor editing. One need only >look at the In Nomine main book, the APG, or the original printing of >INWO to verify this. Some of this is editing (the IN main book organization is clearly an editorial issue, as are various typos, such as the ones Em noted in the APG). Most of the rest of the things you're complaining about are more playtest/game balance issues. And there's also the fact that editors aren't perfect, and some are better than others. You should also realize that game editor isn't exactly a high-paying job -- it's not going to attract highly-experienced people unless they happen to *love* gaming. That said, I'll also note that SJGame's editing isn't any worse than a number of book publishers I've seen. I happen to know that Steve himself is rather a perfectionist, and tends to grit his teeth every time someone finds bugs in a published book. However, even he can't catch everything, and there are times when the realities of economics impact the production process. One could wish it weren't so, but it is. For In Nomine, there was also some "teething" trouble, as the rather novel production process had some bugs worked out -- this is the first product line that SJGames has had that has routinely been written by multiple authors. As you might expect, this has resulted in increased editorial work, until everyone working on IN projects converged on a relatively common view of how things work in the IN universe. I think things will be smoother from here on. (Also, I have faith in my wife's editorial abilities -- she's the Line Editor....) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 12:08 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> History >I know this will sound strange coming from someone who's been asking >for closer ties between IN canon and historical sources. . .but I suspect >a lot of Genesis has to be treated as myth, even in a game that assumes >angels and demons are real. I think the IN canon is pretty clear that the modern scientific view of the universe (age in the 10-20 billion year range) is the working model. There's also some canon stuff that disconnects Eden from the creation of humanity. Other than that, though, it's possible that most of Genesis can be fit in (from my vague recollection of it). Note also that it's clearly IN canon that the Christian Bible isn't *literally* true, though it contains more Truth than some religions. There's also the issue that, in canon, the Ethereals claim that God is just one of them. If true (and canon is explicitly silent on the matter), the histories in the APG and IPG may not be true. Remember that they're written from the viewpoint of what the celestials know. Only a few angels were supposedly around at the creation, and it's also said that their memories aren't particularly clear. It's always possible that God tampered with their memories, and *lied* to his angels.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:15:51 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> History > But civilization did not grow just in the Mediterranean. In fact there > were 5 "primary" civilizations, the Nile River Valley, the Tigris River > Valley, the Indus River Valley, along the Yellow River in China, in what > is now Mexico and Latin America and in what is now Peru. It is believed > that these civilizations rose independent of each other at about the same > time. So if the flood struck at the dawn of civilization it would have > to cover all those places. On the other hand this is fantasy role > playing so maybe there was a corrupt, large empire at the time of the > flood and that the flood destroyed all the remains of it for man, but > the celestials still remember. Ia! Ia! Shub-Niggoroth! Cthulhu F'thegn! Ia! Ia! Will one day dread Cthulhu arise again from R'lyeh! No, no, I've never played CoC. Really. Never heard of it before now. But, *snap fingers*, this reminds me of something I was talking about yesterday after Vampire to two of my Malkavians-in-crime. There is a class I took in 1994 called "CULT ARCHEOLOGY", taught by Dr. Dick "Crop Circle" Ford. Dr. Kharmelkov had told me to take it (my Egyptology professor) and told me it was 'hilarious'. It turned out to be an easy A, but it wasn't about digging up cults and analyzing them, it was about this exact thing, rogue archeology that is more new agey pop culture then science. So we covered such illustrious subjects as Bigfoot, the lost continent of Atlantis (and Mu and Lemuria), crop circles, aliens being behind the Nazca lines, and yes, this topic - Concurrent Cultural Evolution. It is true, these 5 civilizations did spring up completely independant of one another, and there is no archeological evidence that supports that they were all "Linked", "Created by Aliens" or anything else. (Don't get me started on Pyramids. :) ) Anywho, this is mostly offtopic for In Nomine, but it's great stuff to know if you're building a universe built on CoC's Elder Gods and Pre-Human Civilizations, or on the Weishaupt Bavarian Illuminati. I can probably find the numbers and such of the books i had to read (equally hilarious) for the classes on Amazon.Com if anyone is interested. And the class is Antro 285 (I believe, high 200's), taught only Winter Term for those of you at the University of Michigan. Beware the Corn Lecture! - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:25:47 EST From: JFZeigler Subject: Re: IN> History In a message dated 98-04-02 11:51:15 EST, jrooney@moose.uvm.edu writes: << But civilization did not grow just in the Mediterranean. In fact there were 5 "primary" civilizations, the Nile River Valley, the Tigris River Valley, the Indus River Valley, along the Yellow River in China, in what is now Mexico and Latin America and in what is now Peru. It is believed that these civilizations rose independent of each other at about the same time. >> Small nitpick -- these five didn't appear at anything close to the same time, as far as we know. Sumeria seems to have started up about 3500 BCE, with pre-dynastic Egypt a few hundred years later. We don't know as much about Harappan (Indus Valley) civilization, but the source I have within reach of the computer implies it appeared about 2500 BCE. Shang Dynasty China appeared about 1800 BCE (although myth places the beginnings of Chinese history a lot further back). The biggie is the American civilizations. Both the Mayan and the Nazca civilizations appear to have begun about the time of Christ, or a little before. Much, much later than the Fertile Crescent cultures. The Olmecs were earlier, but they weren't really city-dwellers. I've come across this misconception many places (including the APG) and I'm not sure where it started. - ---------- Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, freelance writer, amateur historian, science fiction fan, occasional scribbler of bad poetry JFZeigler@aol.com "Never speak for others. You can get in enough trouble speaking for yourself." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:28:47 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> basic rule book > >As a college student I am on a very limited budget and spend as little > >as possible on unessential items. As a result I really wish that the > >editors at SJG would get their acts together and do a book right on the > > first time rather than proposing a fix or errata in a new book. > > This is certainly preferable. However, SJGames does a fairly decent > job, in my opinion, relative to most of the rest of the industry. At > least they publish FAQs and errata.... I'll elaborate a little bit - For a 1st Edition sourcebook, the IN Main Book, for all it's organization problems, is pretty damn good. Yeah, okay, it doesn't look that way, so I'll whip out a few of my favorite games as examples: * Paranoia is in 5th edition, although most people use 2nd edition rules. Has anyone ever SEEN Paranoia 1st edition? Be afraid. Use the newer stuff. * Shadowrun from FASA 1st edition came on it 86-87 as a boxed set. I think the only human who has ever seen this thing. The text was so bad they wrote obscenties about penis length in the margins of the artwork. Really. Honestly. * Call of Cthulhu from Chaosium has been played, at least the last 5 years, in 5th Edition. 6th Edition which _continues_ to perfect a system that has won more awards then it has sourcebooks (well, maybe not, but quite a few) and will be coming out this summer. * AD&D has been in 2nd Edition since I was in High School, and probably before. Does anyone remember Monks? I dug Monks, but no donut for me. * GURPS basic set is also in 2nd Edition, getting rid of some of the sillier parts of the system, and sort of pulling some odds and ends in to one spot. What it comes down to is this - it was the first time the book was written. It had problems. Every brand new system has problems, and some more then others. For a first swipe at things, it wasn't bad, and there were some massive mistakes. When 2nd Edition comes out, the game will most likely be much better then it was before. > For In Nomine, there was also some "teething" trouble, as the rather > novel production process had some bugs worked out -- this is the first > product line that SJGames has had that has routinely been written by > multiple authors. As you might expect, this has resulted in increased > editorial work, until everyone working on IN projects converged on a > relatively common view of how things work in the IN universe. I think > things will be smoother from here on. (Also, I have faith in my wife's > editorial abilities -- she's the Line Editor....) *grin* We all have faith in Beth. :) - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:34:30 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Love, Hope, & Mysteries >On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> At 6:15 PM -0600 4/1/98, John L Veazey wrote: >> >sorry, didn't mean to post this. >> >> Darn. It looked evocative, though I was trying to figure out >> Choirs, Bands, and/or Superiors... O;> > >If you listen to it, it is even more evocative... It's hard to describe, >but it's a duet(?), with a 'bright' voice for the "stay with me" bits and >a 'darker' voice for the "back in your own world" parts, making the lyrics >very different if you really listen to them as compared to just listen to >the 'sound'. Better yet, go to the video store and rent the video. Some of the imagery that thye use is worth it as well. Kind of interesting how the "evil" one descends from a staircase. Armand ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:36:43 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> The Fall, Dinosaurs, and Eden >> [Eden]'s still closed off, guarded by a cherub with a >> flaming sword, probably a ranking Servitor of Purity.) > >Not named Aziraphale, by any chance? Couldn't be Aziraphale, he gave his sword to that poor couple. I don't know how happy his superior would have been to requisition him a new one. Armand ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:41:57 EST From: JFZeigler Subject: Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) In a message dated 98-04-02 08:17:44 EST, SienarFLT@aol.com writes: << So that those of you who complain about not having time and want this-and-such published and prepared ahead of time and spoonfed to you, I sympathize, I really do. >> Aside from being a little disparaging, I don't think the above is very realistic. There is *no way* to somehow attach the bulk of human history to IN canon and put it all in one sourcebook. Believe me -- when I wrote GURPS GREECE it was painful in the extreme, deciding what to keep when so much had to be thrown out. We ended up with something that any serious historian would turn his nose up at (and many have). This despite it having an unusually large amount of historical material for any RPG line. All I'm suggesting is that SJG address some of the big gaps that bother some people about IN canon. I think that can be done in an entertaining way, which provides historically-minded GMs with inspiration without putting them in a straitjacket. The result would be useful to some of us. It would be too much to hope that it would be useful to everyone -- no gaming supplement is. - ---------- Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, freelance writer, amateur historian, science fiction fan, occasional scribbler of bad poetry JFZeigler@aol.com "Never speak for others. You can get in enough trouble speaking for yourself." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 14:30 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> basic rule book >* Paranoia is in 5th edition, although most people use 2nd edition rules. >Has anyone ever SEEN Paranoia 1st edition? Be afraid. Use the newer >stuff. Yep. Hey, I *liked* all the skill tree stuff.... (OK, I'm an incorrigible rules-mechanic....) >* GURPS basic set is also in 2nd Edition, Actually 3rd Edition (revised), though the 2nd edition was basically just a reprint. The revised 3rd edition just added some generally-useful stuff from other rulebooks in the back in place of an adventure. > getting rid of some of the >sillier parts of the system, and sort of pulling some odds and ends in to >one spot. The main change was a total revamp of the ranged combat rules, which didn't really work for firearms and higher-tech weapons. A few other minor things got tweaked, and the basic magic and psi rules were added from the appropriate sourcebooks in an attempt to make the core rules more "universal". These days, though, you really need GURPS 3rd edition, plus the two Compendiums, which collect nearly *everything* of use, with the exception of some very genre-specific rules and such. That puts the GURPS "core" rules at something like 450 pages these days. Fortunately, they're not expanding much any more.... >> (Also, I have faith in my wife's >> editorial abilities -- she's the Line Editor....) > >*grin* We all have faith in Beth. :) And she gets Essence from it, too.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 14:54:06 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> The Fall, Dinosaurs, and Eden On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Jesse wrote: > A: Why do you think it was an apple? It's a metaphor, actually. The Metaphor Of The Apple. > B: It is actually guarded by cherubim with a flamming sword, seems Heaven > had a shortage of weapons. If there's a joke being made here, I don't get it. > C: Why Purity? Why not Dreams or Destiny? Because I said so? ;) It seemed like a Purity kind of thing to do. Kill the unbelievers, purge the Marches, enforce the Eden Edict. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 15:20:43 -0500 From: Jesse Subject: Re: IN> The Fall, Dinosaurs, and Eden >> B: It is actually guarded by cherubim with a flamming sword, seems Heaven >> had a shortage of weapons. > >If there's a joke being made here, I don't get it. Nope. The Bible says that there were stationed mutiple Cherubim, but only refeers to one flaming sword. >> C: Why Purity? Why not Dreams or Destiny? > >Because I said so? ;) It seemed like a Purity kind of thing to do. Kill the >unbelievers, purge the Marches, enforce the Eden Edict. Whatever. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 15:39:12 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The Fall, Dinosaurs, and Eden Jesse wrote: > The Bible says that there were stationed mutiple Cherubim, but only > refers to one flaming sword. A Bible-study book I had as kid had a nifty illustration showing two winged figures with sheilds, spears, and breastplates, flanking a firey sword that hovered in the air, spinning. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:41:58 -0600 From: "Yeager, Alex" Subject: IN> Creativity From: Julian Breen > I don't necessarily want to have to invent the history > for my game from scratch though. Does that make me > a poor GM? No imagination? I don't think so. Nor do I. I believe the point that has been driven home many times on this list is "different strokes for different folks". My only observation is that the more detailed a world-view or history gets, the more difficult it gets to keep track of over time, both from a game and a personal perspective. Detail is necessary; I, like many others, prefer to generate that detail personally, if for no other reason than it's easier to be consistent to one's own little universe if you whirled it together with your own recipe. Besides, if IN gets too detailed, Beth might have to expand her Tuesday duties into Wednesdays - do YOU want to be held responsible? > As a passing observation concerning creativity; If I was that > creative (if any of us were :)) we wouldn't be playing IN anyway. > We'd have written our *own* game systems! ...but THIS is why I unlurked. The precise reason I have been so enthusiastic about IN is because it MAKES me that creative! I have had the opportunity to play and examine literally hundreds of games over the years; of those, I have a very small subset which makes my neurons fire off like AK-47s on speed (TFOS, Paranoia, Toon, IN and my own special flavor of AD&D. Don't ask.) It's because my mind, for whatever reason, wraps around the underlying concepts of these games and ENCOURAGES my creativity, that makes me appreciate what these games inspire in me. Create my own game? Been there, done that - I've been running a fully functional version of Kung-Fu CB Mamas on Wheels... since 1992. (This reference serves three purposes - my undying love for SJG, my inside reference for other lifers, and a tweak to anyone else who might have looked at that character sheet and said, "No WAY that can be a real game...") I don't consider the creation of a game the ultimate expression of creativity - although I greatly admire the time and effort put into the creation of IN or any other game. I would observe that this list is rife with honest-to-gosh creativity daily - even to the creative acquisition of research sources and influences. Personally, I am incredibly busy, both with my job and with my MIB efforts (and Friends of Lulu in my own private way, and my wife's camp directorship, etc.) - so my response is to generate between four and six con scenarios a year. It's what I can handle right now, and I'm comfortable that my limited output at the moment is offset by the fact that I'm very good - some might even say entertaining - in their execution. I have admiration for the creative talents of those who have ongoing campaigns - I've had them in the past as well, and creativity is absolutely mandatory for the successful execution thereof. None of us "created" IN - but many of the seeds, campaign notes, and writeups posted here are as creatively inspired as any other canon source you can point to. I'm sure you didn't mean it as bluntly as it sounded, but I did want to put in my two cents worth to compliment the "everyday" creativity so wonderfully exhibited on this list. (Except that Pee Kitty character - why he wastes time with In Nomine INWO I'll never know... ;) ) Now, it's back to lurking and working on summer cons... [walks off smiling, murmuring something about "Natural Causes"] Alex Yeager YeagerAW@Maritz.com MIB 0230/FoL/INWO Local 23 (able and willing to discuss any of the off-topic above privately) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #705 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.