From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Apr 16 05:01:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA30498 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 05:01:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id FAA32455 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 05:04:15 -0500 Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 05:04:15 -0500 Message-Id: <199804161004.FAA32455@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #717 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, April 16 1998 Volume 01 : Number 717 In this digest: Re: IN> Shedim of Death: Old questions Re: IN> Infernal Player's Guide -- First Impressions IN> Things Being Posted Re: IN> Infernal Player's Guide -- First Impressions IN> Djinn Re: IN> Infernal Player's Guide -- First Impressions Re: IN> Djinn IN> Re: IN- Shedim of Death: Old questions IN> Djinn thoughts (some aid for our fine stalking friends) Re: IN> Djinn (Very Dark!) Re: IN> Infernal Player's Guide -- First Impressions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:34:17 -0400 From: John Karakash - LUCENT ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Shedim of Death: Old questions Bruce Dykes wrote: > > Not needing to corrupt corpses is copaceptic with > > me (in fact, it was already in the FAQ). But I got the > > feeling that Shedim get their info from having the > > soul of the person right there 'under control'. Despite > > my dislike for those -2/-4 tables in APG, I think the > > second suggestion would make good canon. > > Hmm...speaking from the theoretical standpoint, would this mean that > upon death, a soul ascends or descends gradually, rather than in toto? > So upon their arrival in Heaven/Hell, they're not necessarily fully > there? > > This then begs the question, is the soulstuff tied physically to the > body somehow? I think Beth's point was that there was a residuum of the soul left... sort of an imprint of the soul that the Shedim can take advantage of for purposes of their attunement. So, no the actual soul is gone, but the decaying impression of the soul can still be used. This is all hypothetical until she and I can talk about this, though. ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:47:35 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN> Infernal Player's Guide -- First Impressions At 09:44 PM 14/04/98 -0400, you wrote: >I just picked up the IPG, and am going to post a fuller review >sometime in the next couple of days. In the meantime, though, >here's my first impressions. > >This is an excellent supplement -- the writing is good, and >the tone is a lot more consistent than has been typical in IN >products. _The Marches_ remains my favorite supplement, but >the IPG is a close number two. > >Things I liked on the first pass: John Tynes's bit on the demonic >mindset is really good, and David Edelstein's band writeups also >stood out. > >Things I didn't like: The IPG didn't really convey a sense of how >vicious, paranoid, backbiting politics in Hell can be. Asmodeus >in particular came off as a not-very-skilled player of the game, >which is very bad IMHO. > >In general, though, it looks like the IPG delivers solid value >for money. I liked it /scads/ better than the APG. > Don't have the I.P.G. but am very interested in what its like, does it have any hard stuff (ie interesting) on Lucifer, and the Lower Hells, I know i should wait and find out but the supense is killing me! Simon, Demon Prince of Pearls > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:01:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: IN> Things Being Posted I figure I should make some sort of comment - I've been playing massive catchup for the last week on the IN site, and now that all the links work and most of the old stuff is gone, the INC got an organizational overhaul which no one ever saw. Don't ask, it's better if you just don't know. As long as Beth keeps feeding me emails, I can put up 3-4 articles in the morning on the INC a day until it gets caught up (and probably one hell of alot more on Fridays). I'm also looking for good reviews and suchlike on the web, but these things take time as I bang on it. In the mean time, I did receive some email about making available a sort of "page template" for people to use for homepages. The normal stuff: background color, text color, headers, footers, icons, standard images, etc. I'm working on it - it's about 1/2 finished and sitting in a directory. Don't give up your day job, mang. :) - - Em. Loyal HTMLing Drudge and Six-Eyed Fiend! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:06:19 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Infernal Player's Guide -- First Impressions At 9:00 PM -0500 4/14/98, Dataweaver wrote: >and I was very surprised that nothing >to the effect of Gray Lilim were even hinted at. Ohterwise, though, a >very solid book. Well, if you can find me something to *cut*... We only got about 6 pages per Band, after all. (I already had to chainsaw that section a few times...) Gray Lilim will be touched on in a future Pyramid article, along with other "Gray Renegades." At 12:24 AM -0400 4/15/98, The Baron Samedi wrote: >Ironically, I found the Bright Lilim to be the scariest part of the book...;) Well, besides that one Noted Author has said something about burying Brights in anthills, what was scary about them? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:31:00 -0400 From: Richard L Thomas Subject: IN> Djinn Djinn What's the deal with Djinn? They have got to be the most worthless of all the bands. That's what I thought at first glance anyway. On reinspection, I noticed the following: "Unlike a Cherub, who gains dissonance when the object of his attunement is hurt, the Djinn could care less about what happens to a pattern to which he is attuned... but he can't bring himself to cause it harm by his own hand. The only exception is when a person to whom the Djinn is attuned asks the demon to do something. In this case, the ensuing mayhem doesn't generate dissonance in the demon." I thought that was super cool. Kind of like an evil Genie twisting his masters wishes. After watching Wishmaster (a really stupid movie) I really understood the character of a twisted Cherub. Unfortunately none of the expansion books shed more light on this twist. Has someone overlooked this? The Infernal Player Guide not only doesn't mention this at all, it seems to make the Djinn resonance even more stringent, including emotional and psychological harm. What's the point of being a Demon with a resonance that actually prevents him from being demonic? Basically, I am asking, can a Djinn can raise Hell if his attuned requests something from him? Was this overlooked in the IPG or was it somehow revoked? Additionally, Djinn of Nightmares, are charged with physically terrorizing people, stalking them and making their lives miserable.... Does this mean that the restrictions of their resonance are lifted? What's the point of entering the Nightmare of someone attuned if the Djinn can't harm him at all? These questions are leading me to believe that Djinn are useless as player characters. As NPCs they are of some value, but as demons their very resonance actually prevents them from being demonic. "Ooooo, I know where you are, what your doing, every significant thing that you've done in your life, even who's watching you, but I can't even tell you that because it might cause you psychological damage". This is a Demon? This is a Stalker of Hell? Because the IPG made no mention of the, lets call it the "As You Wish" ability, I'm inclined to believe that the authors are back peddling. Sorta like the Belseraph of Fate attunement. This attunement makes no mention of the Belseraph's innate resonance but in the FAQ it states that no other Choir can have this attunement. In a shallow afterthought the attunement is explained as "lying" to the symphony. Personally I thought it was Kronos' connection to the Symphony that allows that attunement, and any servitor of any choir of h! is could have it. In general Demons need more power, they are not equivalent to Angels. Everything that a Demon is, i.e. his resonance, can be easily opposed, no matter how powerful the Demon. A Willful target need not fear any demon not even the Adversary himself, so what if demons have powerful attunements. To top it of most demons can acquire dissonance for failing their resonance, or having it successfully resisted. Demons don't need anymore checks and balances, they are already limited on a fundamental level. P.S. I am very much interested in a "Canon" response. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:49:32 +0100 From: Rhodri James Subject: Re: IN> Infernal Player's Guide -- First Impressions On 15 Apr, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > I just picked up the IPG, and am going to post a fuller review > sometime in the next couple of days. Today I wandered into my local games shop and got the shock of my life. The IPG was up on the shelves! Over this side of the Atlantic we usually get stuff a month or more after its US release, so this was a little surprising. I found it particularly shocking because the Liber Reliquarum hasn't made it to Cambridge yet. Now all I have to do is find the time to read it... :-) - -- Rhodri James *-* Wildebeeste herder to the masses If you don't know who I work for, you can't misattribute my words to them ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:58:17 EDT From: SienarFLT Subject: Re: IN> Djinn In a message dated 98-04-15 18:41:18 EDT, you write: > As NPCs they are of some value, but as demons their very resonance actually > prevents them from being demonic. "Ooooo, I know where you are, what your > doing, every significant thing that you've done in your life, even who's > watching you, but I can't even tell you that because it might cause you > psychological damage". This is a Demon? This is a Stalker of Hell? Remember that it is not necessarily the power/resonance of a celestial that makes it demonic/angelic, it is rather the motive behind doing any particular action. A djinn, in the most generic demonic sense, attunes itself to things for essentially selfish reasons, not to protect it like its counterpart the Cherubim do. And as a matter of fact, yes, this makes them the most effective "Stalkers of Hell." Stalking someone or something doesn't imply that the demon can or should damage or hurt it, just that the demon knows where that something is, and knows of it continually, all of the time. Think of the djinn and calabim duo, or the hunter and the destroyer. The djinn has the easiest time locating something (as long as it is attuned to it) and then the calabite goes and kills it. Not all demons are meant to be combat monsters, but djinn can be very, very nasty. All of this without delving into anything the IPG has to say on this matter of course. -- Thom. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:02:07 PDT From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Shedim of Death: Old questions > I think Beth's point was that there was a residuum >of the soul left... sort of an imprint of the soul >that the Shedim can take advantage of for purposes of their >attunement. So, no the actual soul is gone, but the >decaying impression of the soul can still be used. This >is all hypothetical until she and I can talk about this, >though. ;) I figure the corporeal body is like a set of clothes for the soul. If you had someone's clothes, you could tell how tall they were, perhaps what colours they liked, what gender they were, etc. From this metaphor, by inhabiting a body, you have some access to skills, memories etc. Of course, as the body decays, you have less to go on, much like if a set of clothes decayed. SurturZ Dissonant Elohite of Stone ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:46:29 -0800 From: Armand Subject: IN> Djinn thoughts (some aid for our fine stalking friends) I've been following the Djinn discussion, and thinking over their whole resonance thing. Yeah, you're Djinn can't do anything to the person or thing that it's attuned to, but you can hurt the things that hang around it. 1) Have your Djinn attune to someone with an unpopular lifestyle (politician, IRS collector, drug dealer, etc.). Now, say someone that would stand in front of the attuned enters the picture (environmentalists, lobbyists, accountants, police officers, etc.) Your Djinn can go to town on these individuals. Oh yeah, you got yourself a Djinn combat monster. 2) Supposing you want to be a bit more diabolical, attune to an item. For example, the Crystal Skull that someone always seems to be having problems with. This can be anything from the mundane (pistols, shoes, cars, etc.) to the extremely unusual (hand of Glory, Mandrake root, the anti-christ, the messiah, etc.). Again, the Djinn will be unable to harm the object in question. However, these leaves anyone who touches the item as fair game. This may or not be cannon, but it's an idea, Armand Ofanim of making the bad guys more functional to be knocked down all the harder. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:58:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Djinn (Very Dark!) Okay, here's how I see the Djinn. Please note that it is as non-canon as it can get. Warning: This post is very dark. I plumbed some very nasty depths of my mind to write this, and it disturbs me when I realize that this came from my head. It will offend some people. This is good, since we're talking about demons, who by their very nature aren't supposed to be nice people. You Have Been Warned. The Djinn Mindset Djinn have the worst self-esteem of any Band. Why? Because they used to be Cherubim. Think about what this means: pre-Fall, they were the epitome of devotion, loyalty, and selfless love. Whenever a Cherub attunes itself to something, it is in effect swearing undying devotion to that object. The purpose of a Cherub is to love beyond all sense of self. Now, imagine what happens when one such as this Falls. The desire-- no, - -need- to love something with that same level of devotion is still there, but it's been twisted into something selfish. Selfish love is all about wanting someone else to love you so you can feel good. So: You're a Djinn. You need to be loved. You desperately want someone to love you. Of course, you can't just tell someone that you love him/her, because if he/she doesn't love you back, then that would mean you've been rejected. You hate rejection. Besides, if you've gotta tell someone you love them before they'll tell you they love you, then what's the point? They should love you for what you are -first-. Otherwise it looks like coaching. They could just be saying it to be polite. You never know unless they tell you first. The problem is, people aren't coming up to you and telling you they love you. Jerks. Everyone else is happy and in love, why can't you be? "Because people don't love you," says that nasty voice in the back of your head. "Because you're unlovable. Because no one will ever love you. Never. For all Eternity." People don't love you? Fine. You'll show them. You'll prove to them that you don't need love. Nope, you're strong. You can go for all Eternity without love. You're a big, tough demon, you don't need affection...and you fool yourself into believing it. That is, until you see people who are happily in love. They have something you don't. Something you can never have, -will- never have. Boy, does it piss you off. It gets you so mad, you could wring the neck of each lovebird in your hands, and with their dying breath, they'd - -finally- stop thinking about each other and pay some attention to -you-.... Waaaait a moment. They won't love you, but you can think up all sorts of ways of getting attention. And attention is really what you want, isn't it? People will be thinking of you constantly. It's love without that messy emotional involvement crap. So you start following the woman, and you do it in such a way that she knows you're following her. All of a sudden, you're the focal point of her attention! It feels gooood. You want more. Soon you start doing things to get her pay more attention to you. Little things, like rifling through her underwear drawer. Every time she gets dressed, she'll think of you. When she pays too much attention to that damnable cat of hers, you take it away from her. You give it back, though. In pieces. That'll teach her to pay attention to something other than you. It's about attention. It's about control. It's about owning somone, body and soul. Breaking her spirit so that you can do anything you want to her, so that she's yours, all -yours-, dammit, and no one else's. Then, after a while, it gets....boring. There's no fear in her eyes anymore. No terror, no indignation, just bland acceptance of the next atrocity you decide to inflict on her. She'll do whatever you want, be whatever you want, let you do whatever you want....and it'll be completely emotionless. That isn't how it's supposed to be, dammit! The emotions are what makes it -fun-. Fear, loathing, hatred....they're what turn you on. That and the sense of power you get when you force her to do something she doesn't want to do. When she doesn't care...well, that's when she doesn't matter any more. You gave her one last thorough going-over for old times sake, then tossed her into the tree chipper -- alive. Her screams were the nicest going-away present she could have given you. But that's in the past now, and you're ready to find someone new....maybe a redhead today.... - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 05:51:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Doubting Eric Subject: Re: IN> Infernal Player's Guide -- First Impressions On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 12:24 AM -0400 4/15/98, The Baron Samedi wrote: > >Ironically, I found the Bright Lilim to be the scariest part of the book...;) > Well, besides that one Noted Author has said something about > burying Brights in anthills, what was scary about them? Hordes of softly glowing Bright Lilim following Laurence around with puppy-dog eyes, asking if they can 'touch it'. This will keep me awake for MONTHS ('it' being the sword. Get your Inner Shedite away from me.) Eric, Elohite of Orc ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #717 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.