From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Apr 20 19:35:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA15635 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:35:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id TAA20053 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:34:44 -0500 Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:34:44 -0500 Message-Id: <199804210034.TAA20053@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #723 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, April 20 1998 Volume 01 : Number 723 In this digest: Re: IN> Superiors on the Edge IN> Bad things happen to people who write too many Bond trailers!!! IN> Why Kobal doesn't laugh much anymore... Re: IN> Jordi Alert IN> Habbalah (Re: Infernal Player's Guide -- First Impressions) Re: IN> Superiors on the Edge Re: IN> Superiors on the Edge Re: IN> Jordi Alert Re: IN> The Last Times Re: IN> IPG Re: IN> Jordi Alert Re: IN> IPG Re: IN> IPG Re: IN> Orphans among Angels? Re: IN> IPG Re: IN> Jordi Alert Re: IN> Re: IN- NC: Acid Re: IN> Superiors on the Edge Re: IN> Superiors on the Edge Re: IN> Jordi Alert Re: IN> Superiors on the Edge Re: IN> Superiors on the Edge Re: IN> Curious about your favorite Demon Prince? Re: IN> Curious about your favorite Demon Prince? Re: IN> Jordi Alert Re: IN> IPG ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:03:17 -0400 From: IceHeart EvenFall Subject: Re: IN> Superiors on the Edge At 11:34 AM 4/20/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Sun, 19 Apr 1998, Frank Lazar wrote: >> Too answer your second question first, ArchAngels and Princes tend to be >> a LOT more noticeable in the corporeal realm than ordinarly celestials, And to answer the first question second.. Maybe we shouldn't be thinking that the Outcast AA or the Renegade DP would have a harder time evading their respective hunters simply because they're powerful (though I like that idea of discordance in DP/AA's being louder in the symphony) Maybe Judgement and the Game would TRY HARDER. Letting Heaven know that even the Superiors can fall, well that's likely pretty bad for morale. >Hm.... Eli seems to have no problems being unfindable. I don't think an >Archangel's presence makes noise in the Sympony, though his arrival makes >a nice *boom*. Maybe Eli is hiding out with God, where his impact on the symphony is rendered rather.. insignificant in comparison? Ice. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:16:50 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: IN> Bad things happen to people who write too many Bond trailers!!! [You know who you are! ;) ] - --- --- --- --- --- "This is irregular, highly irregular." The palpable tension in the room was approaching nail-biting intensity as the dark-suited figures bent their heads over the document, dissecting each phrase at length. The speaker glanced carefully towards the top table where the icy deliberations had drawn out for long hours. His companion, a shorter man with a manically plastic smile and eyes hidden behind tinted glasses, just smiled the more widely. They stood at the far end of the long room, by a plated window which looked out onto wide grey plains. "Irregular problems call for irregular solutions, Jean my friend. Think they'll be able to sort out the fine print in time for a photo-shoot at dawn?" "Given that an average bolt of lightning carries a static potential of the order of 6 gigavolts, do you know how many direct strikes to the generator it would take to short out your entire remote broadcasting unit?" Nybbas' smile tightened up a notch. "My /friend/, I am picking up the definite vibes that you would prefer it if I were to talk to someone else." "Yes," said Jean blandly. "Precisely one." Sparks flickered across his hand as he pressed a finger to the metal window-frame, outlining the milk-white digit against the darkness outside. At the opposite corner, a woman flinched from where she was also gazing out at the night sky and glared at the two speakers, as the jolt of static lifted the leaf-green hairs on her arm. Her hand leapt from the window instinctively. "I'd thought you were supposed to be aiding in resolving the mediation," the archangel of lightning observed, having adequately acquired her attention. "Wasting time on thousand-yard stares barely seems the speediest way to do that." Lilith bit back the first comment that came to mind. Blasphemy seldom went down well, although the reaction was always guaranteed. "Patience, impatience," she chuckled throatily, walking across to the pair. Her eyes gleamed with dangerous bottle-green lowlights. "We've come a very long way in these negotiations. Further than many," she glanced deliberately towards the now-silent figure that was the prince of factions, "would have believed possible." "Geased into silence?" Nybbas grinned again as he followed her gaze, although the expression was hollow. The woman tilted a hand, her own eyes registering almost nothing. "The main articles are agreed. The libel is singularly intolerable and dangerous. Marc is doing a sterling job on tidying up the last few minutae and sticking points. Since neither of you were helping in any major way I hardly think you have any right to complain." The barb in her smile was aimed directly at Jean. Any reply was lost in the distraction as the meeting at the main table broke up. Men and women exchanged more relaxed comments from their seats or stood up and stretched as an indication that the more serious discussions were on hold. Marc sat back in his chair at the head of the table, took off his wire-rimmed glasses and pinched the bridge of his nose, closing his eyes briefly. Even the archangel of trade's famously good humour was beginning to look frayed and weary. Behind him, Baal interlinked his vessel's fingers and cracked his knuckles with deliberate precision before resting one gloved hand on the table and leaning forwards to exchange a brief comment with the archangel of judgement, silent in whispering robes. "Ten minute break." Marc cleared his throat after making the announcement and glanced round the room at the other archangels and demon princes. They were so close now. He stood up slowly, having received no indication of acknowledgement from any of the other superiors, and joined the other three by the window. "You look like shit," Lilith said sympathetically, reaching out towards his face. "I could have a make-up team here in seconds." Nybbas shrugged, and the smile didn't slip an inch under the two withering gazes this garnered. Marc batted the green hand away and just shook his head. "You have hopes for an agreement soon," Jean said to him in a more sympathetic undertone. "This is why you cannot allow yourself to collapse. Make time later." The other archangel nodded wearily, to all of the comments. "It just comes down to agreeing what a suitable punishment would be. We know who they are, we know how to arrest them, we have agreed the charges and the rough magnitude of the crime, we have the hard evidence as provided by several superiors aligned with both the infernal and the divine, and as approved by both judgement and the game." "So what's the current state?" Nybbas asked, cradling a small electronic dictaphone between his own fingers. The artefact emitted a quiet click and whistle as the heads began to move. Marc rubbed at his eyes again and replaced his glasses, plucking a notepad from an immaculate breast pocket. "Let me see... we have a range of differing proposals. In alphabetical order they run as follows. Andrealphas is keen to inflict some punishment in person but didn't stipulate what that would be." The other three rolled their eyes in unison. "He what?" asked the woman. "But he was one of the only people to be presented in a thoroughly /good/ light." "Doubtless he simply wants to take the opportunity to satisfy his own carnal nature," the elohite observed coolly, the barest twitch of distaste across one high cheekbone. Marc shrugged in agreement. "Yes, it isn't personal in his case. Asmodeus wants them hung, drawn and set to churning out training videos for his organisation. Baal wants them for target practice, so does Michael. Beleth wants them trapped in Giger's nightmares. Blandine wants their dreams stripped. Dominic wants them locked up. Janus.. " "Oh c'mon," Nybbas interrupted the list. "He wasn't even there!" "Janus wanted it put on record that he doesn't care," Marc continued, giving the demon prince of the media a shut-up-now glare. "Jean suggested that they volunteer for testing. So did Vapula." This earned a frown from the aforementioned archangel. "Look," said Marc, "it isn't my fault you fall into the same patterns of thought." Lilith interrupted with a well-timed cough as Jean was about to reply. "He's tired, Jean darling. He didn't mean anything by that." The mercurian groaned under his breath and shook his head. "Yes, alright, sorry. Where was I.. oh. Right. Kobal said he didn't care but remembered at the last moment that he did have something else in mind, but he didn't see fit to share it. Kronos wanted them to run for parliament. Eli wants to write witty rebuttals about them I think -- or take them out for a drink. Malphas wants to get them to all write about each other. Laurence wants them to polish his cathedral floor with tissues -- something about hard work being good for the soul. I wanted a full restitution for the damage to my character and reputation. Nybbas wanted them for his 'Running Woman Death Match' quiz show. Haagenti wanted them for lunch. Jordi wants them torn apart by wild dog packs. Novalis wanted it put on record that she isn't vindictive at all but after the banana episode she wants.." He consulted the pad and squinted at his scribbled notes. "She wants to have them planting trees until their wretched backs are broken from the effort. Yves wants them for his collection. David wants them to test out his new assault course. Gabriel wanted to forge them into some new front-line smiting team." "The Smite Girls? Oh yes..." Nybbas kept his voice pitched low enough that only one of the others could catch the comment, but she gave him a hard paddington glare. "Belial said he was quite happy with his portrayal but would incinerate them anyway. Valefor .. hasn't shown yet. And Saminga wanted to kill them." Marc finished and flipped the pad closed. "Predictable," said the others in unison. Jean considered Lilith with quiet eyes. "And yourself?" he asked finally, adding "You were waiting for one of us to ask so please enlighten us." "I have a proposal," she smiled. It was an unpleasant smile. "All of you want them. Quite a lot in fact. They /will/ want not to be taken quite a lot also after someone has explained the consequences of their libellous 'Bond Trailers'. When the break is up, I was going to suggest to my colleague here that we propose setting year-long geases on each of them. One year in service to each superior as due payment for the crimes, but it would require an agreement by all here present that they will be in a fit state to be handed over at the year's end." Nybbas grinned. His expression didn't alter an inch. "I like it. It has style, flair, we can send a camera crew round to see how they are getting on. Lilith baby, you are just /made/ for TV! Its a surefire hit." "It has advantages and drawbacks," Jean agreed. "Quite possibly an optimal course." Marc caught Lilith's eye. "Well," he said, "If you can get Saminga to agree to the no-death clause then you just might have yourself a deal." She met his gaze with a more honest smile. "Darling," she said. "I was going to propose that they go to Saminga /last/" - ---------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G. K. Chesterton jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:27:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Dykes Subject: IN> Why Kobal doesn't laugh much anymore... Kobal's BFG (Big effing Gag, tm) is one of those things that should be unique to every campaign. But this one is just too neat... Kobal and Eli are collaborating to create a heavenly tether in a chamber hidden behind a file cabinet in Kobal's office. You can rationalise either point of view you like, Eli wants to see what kind of strategic or tactical advantage could be gained, or maybe he thinks any sort of Divine presence in Hell would be a Bad Thing. Kobal may just want to show up the arrogance and smug superiority of his fellow DPs, esp. Asmodeus. No matter what, this doesn't look good for either of them, and it would make Asmodeus and Dominic look even worse, if anybody knew what they were up to. In the meantime, they keep asking themslves, is this a good idea, how far will he go before sells me out, can this even work, and so forth, all while keeping their backs guarded against Judgement and the Game. Just a thought...comments? == bruce bdykes@intac.com _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:29:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Jordi Alert > One of my characters is an ophanim of Jordi, Main vessel is a wise cracking > cockatiel who gets rather anoyed if you call him a parrot. > > incidently if anyone can thing of any decent jokes to do with parrots > that an npc of kobal can use to insult this servitor it would be most > apreciated At first all I could think of was the word Swirly, but that always comes to mind when I first think about Pranks. Parrots molt. I think it would be fun to, while the parrot was elsewhere, steal some of the molted feathers have a good time. Subliminal messages! Feathers in the microwave! Feathers turning up in cassaroles! Feathers turning up in pockets with someone's keys! All I can think of is the prank some kids did that I read somewhere. They grabbed some guys pet parrot and nuked it. And then left it in the microwave, steaming. They may have even wrapped it in saran wrap first. (Mmmmm.... saran wrap.) - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:24:42 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Habbalah (Re: Infernal Player's Guide -- First Impressions) At 9:18 PM -0500 4/19/98, Dataweaver wrote: >On Sun, 19 Apr 1998, Graveyard Greg wrote: >IPG mentions that either Imps or Gremlins (I think imps) can become >Habbalites; either there's a substantial number of imps who believe >themselves to be doing God's work, or they gain the delusion upon >becoming Habbalites. They understand that they have been *redeemed*, lifted out of the morass of demonicness and shown the TRUE WAY! They have been touched by God's Grace! And if they don't understand this (or at least profess to do so), their Choirmates kill them. Habbalah police themselves. (Or so I'd figure, personally.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:22:02 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Superiors on the Edge On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, Graveyard Greg wrote: > > > > > > ---Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > > > On Sun, 19 Apr 1998, Dataweaver wrote: > > > > > On Sun, 19 Apr 1998, Frank Lazar wrote: > > > I don't remember the exact details, but what about that Shedite who > found > > a way to possess multiple vessels in the Middle Ages? The one all > the AA:s > > and DP:s (except Valefor, of course:) fought together? Was he a > renegade, > > or did he just become too powerful? > > > > Anders Gabrielsson > > No, Legion just became WAY too powerful...Saminga helped him with a > ritual, which thankfully Saminga has forgotten! OK, I wasn't sure. Hmmm, now that I think of it... The Return of Legion would make a very nice campaign, I think... *very evil grin* Picture this... The characters (angels and/or demons) have been investigating a series of murders, performed by different people, but in a disturbingly similar manner. Naturally they suspect a Shedite, but some of the murders have been performed in different places at the same time. A Kyrotate? Mostly people affiliated with Heaven have been killed, so that's not probable. Then, through skillfull detective work/creative use of Songs/pure luck they manage to corner one of the killers, who fights with inhuman strength and ferocity. Just before the vessel dies it says, in a voice like the blend of hundreds of different voices... "I AM LEGION. WE ARE MANY." It would scare the Hell out of me... ;) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! "I kick arse for the Lord!" - Father McGruder ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:22:54 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Superiors on the Edge On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, Elizabeth Bartley wrote: > On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > [Eli] > > > Remeber that the first thing God did was to create. Think about it. :) > > Isn't his name one of those for God? One of the other players in a game I > was in suggested that Eli was God and the reason that human beings were so > important to Heaven is that God is a Mercurian. I'd buy it. :) That would explain why he's absent from Heaven so much too... more important things to do. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! "I kick arse for the Lord!" - Father McGruder ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 20:17:56 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Jordi Alert At 14:29 20/04/98 -0400, you wrote: > > >Parrots molt. I think it would be fun to, while the parrot was elsewhere, >steal some of the molted feathers have a good time. Subliminal >messages! Feathers in the microwave! Feathers turning up in cassaroles! >Feathers turning up in pockets with someone's keys! > *giggle* I'm afraid I only know -1 good parrot jokes so here it is. Q: What's orange and sounds like a parrot? A: A carrot. (ie. if you can't afford parrot feathers, just leave carrots lying around instead until Someone gets It. The run!) jo - ---------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G. K. Chesterton jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:25:42 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> The Last Times On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Simon Hailes wrote: > > > Just a thought, like the idea about desperate demons on the > > run from Terminator-esque Angels in a shattered Post-Apocalyptic > > world thing. > > A staging detail: Yes, it's a Post-Apocalyptic world, but a literal > one, not a mundane day-after-the-bomb-went-off setting. That > means that it is busily turning into a utopia. The Messianic > Kingdom has come. (This works equally well for Christianity, > Judaism, and Islam. They are all expecting the messiah.) > > It might also make sense, in such a setting, that angels, saints, > and Soldiers of God could move and act openly. ("Look, mommy, > a seraph!" "Wave to the nice angel, dear.") It might also be fun if it wasn't all that utopic... I can well imagine some angels setting up a rather repressive society for the humans, and some turning to the demons for help to become free once again. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! "I kick arse for the Lord!" - Father McGruder ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:30:12 -0400 From: John Karakash - LUCENT ASCC Subject: Re: IN> IPG Dataweaver wrote: > > Lessee... Things That Were Left Out Of IPG (Due to lack of space, I > assume): > > 1. Bright Lilim choir attunements They, officially, don't get any. Beth has her own ideas on this and they are pretty amusing. A 'choir of Lilim' wasn't planned for when making the Symphony. Other, newer, bands of demons will probably have the same problem if any members go bright. > 2. Gray Lilim (and other Gray Bands; I'm definitely looking forward to > these...) They, and other 'Grays' might get an article one day. Perhaps linked into an adventure? > 3. The fertility Song. Yeah, I noticed this as well. Buy the APG! ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:39:48 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Jordi Alert At 8:46 AM -0700 4/20/98, Robert Knop wrote: >> incidently if anyone can thing of any decent jokes to do with parrots >> that an npc of kobal can use to insult this servitor it would be most >> apreciated > >Have you already used the words "Tastes like chicken"? Anything with Polly in it. "Polly wanna stick of dynamite?" - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:00:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> IPG > They, officially, don't get any. Beth has her own ideas > on this and they are pretty amusing. A 'choir of Lilim' wasn't > planned for when making the Symphony. Other, newer, bands of > demons will probably have the same problem if any members go > bright. I'll stop my editting of documents for a moment to make a comment. Lilim were not created with the Symphony. They weren't even created with Man. Lilim are a byproduct of a failed portion of the Eden Experiment. Had Lilith done what she was supposed to, then Lilim would never have existed. They are the unFallen, never cast out of the Garden of Eden, because they never had the chance to be expulsed. What the Lilim actually are is open to debate. If you believe that Adam Kadman and Lilith were created as Golem from the dust of the ground, and infused with the spirit of God, then it is possible that what a Lilim _is_, is a different variation on the Golem, as Lilith reproduces them in her own image from Forces instead of the dust of the ground. Another version is that they are pure humans, the divine version of mankind infused with the blood brought to life by God and never subject to the pains of Original Sin. Either way, they are cast out of the Symphony as a whole, and they get to look in, wondering what it would have been like if their Mother had put her pride aside. (My Lilim, Daimon, is firmly convinced that Lilim are created purely to suffer for Lilith's sins. He rationalizes this in new and interesting ways that make less and less sense.) Odd things points about Lilim are their lack of divine choir, and that their resonance is Perception based. It's hard to say if they are purely demons but... and I ask this question... if the resonance to bind with geasa is necessarily suppressed (I've seen this in some suggestions) by Archangels upon going 'Bright', is it possible that they don't belong in Heaven either? My theory is that the ultimate point of Freedom for Lilim is to be free of Hell entirely, geas-wise, go to Earth, and disappear forever into the sea of humanity so they can also be truly Human - but before Flood human. Living enormous spans of time, like Cain and Abel. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:20:21 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IPG At 3:30 PM -0400 4/20/98, John Karakash - LUCENT ASCC wrote: >Dataweaver wrote: >> >> Lessee... Things That Were Left Out Of IPG (Due to lack of space, I >> assume): >> >> 1. Bright Lilim choir attunements > They, officially, don't get any. Ahem. This may change in future published canon. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:46:14 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Orphans among Angels? At 9:54 PM -0700 4/17/98, Sean McCarthy wrote: >>From: Elizabeth McCoy >>>2) What if your AA Fell, rather than died? (Cherub of Light) >> >>Are you and the Seraphim Council going to *chance* keeping >>boons from one who later Fell? For the reverse, if, say, >>Baal has a change of heart, do you think the Game is going to >>let you run around with something from a *traitor*? > >Well, after you fought through the first battle of the War on their >side(since presumably nobody was running around pulling attunments >from loyal troops during the Rebellion) you probably displayed your >loyalty. Yes, but the holder of the Word you're serving Fell. What if the taint can backwash? >Correct me if I'm wrong(Please!) but there aren't any >present-published examples of Superiors who Fell except those who >sided with Lucifer originally and no examples of a Superior Redeeming. >Right? Currently, I believe that is the case, off the top of my head. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 98 16:50 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> IPG [Em:] >Lilim were not created with the Symphony. They weren't even created with >Man. Lilim are a byproduct of a failed portion of the Eden Experiment. This isn't clear -- my own understanding is that *everything* is part of the Symphony, though it may be bucking the whole, and hearing only its own part (i.e., demons). There's also the question of what Eden was for, in IN canon. The given explanation makes little sense as a scientific experiment. ("Bad scientific method, no toroid.") And the whole mess, like the Fall, begs the question of God's possible foreknowlege. >What the Lilim actually are is open to debate. If you believe that Adam >Kadman and Lilith were created as Golem from the dust of the ground, and >infused with the spirit of God, then it is possible that what a Lilim >_is_, is a different variation on the Golem, as Lilith reproduces them in >her own image from Forces instead of the dust of the ground. Another >version is that they are pure humans, the divine version of mankind >infused with the blood brought to life by God and never subject to the >pains of Original Sin. In canon, Lilim are definitely *not* humans -- celestials and humans are quite distinct, and they're specifically described as celestials. My own take on it is that they're akin to the Children of the Grigori. Just as Lilith was a type of human most akin to the celestial, the Grigori are the Choir of angel most akin to the human, to the point where they could interbreed, creating (at least some of the time) celestials as a result (the Children of the Grigori). Lilith is ultimately a human (presumably a rather changed one, being a Demon Princess in name and power, if not fact), who can reproduce in the celestial manner -- the flip side of the Grigori, who are angels who could reproduce in the human manner. So the notion that strikes my fancy is that Lilim are really very like the Children of the Grigori, but from the other side (*not* the Fallen version -- that's the Nephallim). This makes them near-human celestials, but not true humans. In my own game, I'm thinking giving them certain attributes that are otherwise only available to humans. In particular, they may not actually need to be Redeemed to enter Heaven, though since there have only been a few dozen Bright Lilim in history, no one may actually know this -- they are normally sent through the redemption process like "other demons." Like "normal" humans, whether they're part of Heaven or Hell is more of a choice than their nature (though their apparent nature *does* change for Brights). However, their celestial nature makes this choice more difficult for Lilim than for humans -- they are somewhat more nature-constrained than humans, and changing their nature is hard. None of this is canon, BTW, except the human/celestial distinction, and it probably won't ever become canon. >My theory is that the ultimate point of Freedom for Lilim is to be free of >Hell entirely, geas-wise, go to Earth, and disappear forever into the sea >of humanity so they can also be truly Human - but before Flood human. Interesting notion. I've been running on a slightly divergent track -- I see their goal (and Lilith's) being to simply stay apart from both sides, but not necessarily become human. If there were a neutral celestial realm, that's where they'd head by preference. Or live among humans, for whom they have a great affinity. This would put them in as partial kin to the Grigori again, since that's what they did (or are doing...?). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:12:08 +0100 (BST) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Jordi Alert On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, The blue eyes, the leather, some guys just like leather wrote: > ophanim of Jordi ... parrot ... kobal ... insult. Shop owner: " He's not dissonant. He's just resting. Marvellous angels, the Ophanim. Beautiful plumage." Dominic: " Plumage don't enter into it, my good man. This Ofanim has fallen. He is an ex-Ophanim. He has passed away. Devoid of grace, he roasts in Hell. If you hadn't nailed him to the perch, he'd be blowing up the daisies. He has sounded his final harmony and joined the choir infernal. This Ophanim is DEAD!" Jordi (for 'tis he): " I never wanted to be a Kyriotate, you know. I wanted to be ... a Malakite! Striding through the forests of the north. The giant sequoia! The larch! The fir! The mighty scot's pine! With my best girl by my side, I'd sing...sing...SING! [breaks into song] " I'm a Malakite and I'm OK, I sleep all night and I work all day." Celestial Chorus: " He's a Malakite and he's OK, He sleeps all night and he works all day." You all know the rest... Oh no. That reminds me: " A pointed stick? Fresh fruit not good enough for you, eh? Well don't blame me if you're walking down an alleyway on a dark night and a Malakite of Eli comes at you with a bunch of loganberries!" I'd best stop, before someone hits me. Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:14:33 +0100 (BST) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- NC: Acid On Wed, 25 Mar 1998, Jo Hart wrote: > The killing joke. With a translation into the demonic celestial tongue, so that Friends of War can tell it in corporeal form without understanding it themselves. Oh yes. Steve. Impudite of Too Much Monty Python. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:21:40 +0100 (BST) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Superiors on the Edge On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, Heretic103 wrote: > In my cronicles [Eli] is the second most powerful AA (next to > Yves), the holiest Angel in existance. Sounds right. The noun 'creation' has (at least) two meanings. Is Eli the Archangel of the Act Of Bringing Things Into Being, or is he Archangel of the Sum Total Of Everything Created By God? Or, of course, both. Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:34:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Superiors on the Edge > Sounds right. The noun 'creation' has (at least) two meanings. > > Is Eli the Archangel of the Act Of Bringing Things Into Being, or is he > Archangel of the Sum Total Of Everything Created By God? > > Or, of course, both. > All this, and he smells good, too! How DOES he do it? Ah, mysteries of the universe. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:48:51 +0000 (GMT) From: "The blue eyes, the leather, some guys just like leather" Subject: Re: IN> Jordi Alert I never thought of that. Wonder what He'll do when He gets asked the question, are you a norwiegan blue? Starsurfer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:19:11 -0400 From: Brandon Quina Subject: Re: IN> Superiors on the Edge > All this, and he smells good, too! How DOES he do it? > > Ah, mysteries of the universe. > >- Em Not only that, but what is he doing on Nybbas's TV screen?? In my game atleast, I let the mystery stand. The players (both of 'em) dont know where exactly Eli stands. One of the view points ive decided are Dominics, who thinks he's in danger of falling and thus a danger to hell and god. The other viewpoint is that he's doing more real concrete good down there on the Corporeal plane than probally any other archangel except perhaps blandine. Brandon, wondering how Em knows that Eli smells good. - -- (lore@tmgbbs.com) \|/// Zzzzzzzzzzzz Brandon Lance Quina (- -) ICQ Number: 6809944 ---ooO(_)Ooo--- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:26:55 -0400 From: Brandon Quina Subject: Re: IN> Superiors on the Edge Hmm. I meant to respond to this the first time around, ohhh well. > > No, Legion just became WAY too powerful...Saminga helped him with a > > ritual, which thankfully Saminga has forgotten! The idea was legions, but saminga was instrumental in doing it-- afterall, saminga is good with things that involve souls/forces/etc. However. Saminga might be stupid, but he's not a complete moron, expecially when it comes to power. What if he *didnt* forget that ritual that he used to make create Legion again. He has just been hiding it-- as I doubt Lucifer would want another Legion incident on his hands. Its bad for morale, the demons having to side with their oppressors. > Hmmm, now that I think of it... The Return of Legion would make a very > nice campaign, I think... *very evil grin* Yeah. I dont think id run it anytime soon, as im kinda running a demonic game at the moment. :) Still, im sure they would have their own views on this occurance. Would this be the 'original' legion, or just another Shedim who pulled off the same trick?? I dont think legion would have gotten as good at it as he manged to, if lucifer hadnt made him a DP. > The characters (angels and/or demons) have been investigating a series > of murders, performed by different people, but in a disturbingly > similar manner. Naturally they suspect a Shedite, but some of the > murders have been performed in different places at the same time. A > Kyrotate? Mostly people affiliated with Heaven have been killed, so > that's not probable. Then, through skillfull detective work/creative > use of Songs/pure luck they manage to corner one of the killers, who > fights with inhuman strength and ferocity. Just before the vessel dies > it says, in a voice like the blend of hundreds of different voices... > "I AM LEGION. WE ARE MANY." ::shiver:: > It would scare the Hell out of me... ;) Me as well. :) but im a whimp ;) - -- (lore@tmgbbs.com) \|/// Zzzzzzzzzzzz Brandon Lance Quina (- -) ICQ Number: 6809944 ---ooO(_)Ooo--- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:31:40 EDT From: MarkDEddy Subject: Re: IN> Curious about your favorite Demon Prince? In a message dated 4/17/98 1:16:57 PM, traveler@io.com writes: >> For Kronos, check out Greek mythology. He was a predecessor of Zeus. >> What he's doing as a Demon Prince? I dunno... > >Umm... that was Cronos, not Kronos (also not to be confused with Chronos, >which is something else entirely...) Hate to break it to you, but there is no letter 'C' in Greek. Kpouos/Kronos would be most correct. (sorry if that gibberished). Chronos (Xpouos/Cronos) is, unless I'm mistaken, a derivative. Mark (two years of Koine lessons...) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 00:19:46 +0100 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Curious about your favorite Demon Prince? >"Baal," "Beelzebub," "Moloch," and (I think) "Asmodeus" are also >god-names that have been given to demons, or based on god-named, >this time from the paganisms that competed directly with the >Israelites. > >Earl > The first three names yes, the fourth? Probably not. Beelzebub is apparently a corruption ;), of the Hebrew Baal zevuv - the 'Lord of the Flies', which in turn is a perversion of Baal zebul, or 'Prince Baal', one of Baal's *many* titles. Moloch (lit."King"), like Baal, was also a Canaanite fertility deity. Ashma Daeva (Persian) becomes Ashmedai (Hebrew) becomes Asmodeus (Latin). As the daevas were originally evil spirits created by Ahriman, the Persian prototype for Satan, 'Asmodeus' was doubtfully ever a god- name. - -- Julian ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 20:22:05 -0400 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Jordi Alert At 10:12 PM +0100 04/20/1998, Steve Jessop wrote: >Oh no. That reminds me: > >" A pointed stick? Fresh fruit not good enough for you, eh? Well don't > blame me if you're walking down an alleyway on a dark night and a > Malakite of Eli comes at you with a bunch of loganberries!" > >I'd best stop, before someone hits me. > >Steve. Too late! FWAP!! - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 20:20:10 -0400 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> IPG At 04:50 PM -0400 04/20/1998, Walter Milliken wrote: >celestials as a result (the Children of the Grigori). > >Lilith is ultimately a human (presumably a rather changed one, being a >Demon Princess in name and power, if not fact), who can reproduce in the >celestial manner -- the flip side of the Grigori, who are angels who >could reproduce in the human manner. So the notion that strikes my >fancy is that Lilim are really very like the Children of the Grigori, >but from the other side (*not* the Fallen version -- that's the >Nephallim). This makes them near-human celestials, but not true >humans. > >In my own game, I'm thinking giving them certain attributes that are >otherwise only available to humans. In particular, they may not >actually need to be Redeemed to enter Heaven, Actually, even your average demon can enter Heaven by following on the coattails of an ascending Angel whether it is redeemed or not. It's seldom a good idea for them to try it however. The original Demon Prince of Secrets used to enter Trojan horse-style, by hiding inside a relic. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #723 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.