From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Apr 28 03:29:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA05229 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 03:29:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id DAA01373 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 03:24:23 -0500 Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 03:24:23 -0500 Message-Id: <199804280824.DAA01373@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #732 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, April 28 1998 Volume 01 : Number 732 In this digest: IN> Grigori Re: IN> Grigori Re: IN> Re: Princess of Nitpicking Re: IN> Origins '98 Re: IN> Re: Princess of Nitpicking (was Re: GRAMMAR (Re: Fuzzy? (was Re: Character taxonomy))) Re: IN> Re: Princess of Nitpicking Re: IN> Re: Princess of Nitpicking Re: IN> 3 questions Re: IN> Re: Princess of Nitpicking (was Re: GRAMMAR (Re: Fuzzy? (was Re: Character taxonomy))) Re: IN> IPG Re: IN> 3 questions Re: IN> Re: Princess of Nitpicking Re: IN> Grigori and Lilim IN> Double Agents Re: IN> 3 questions Re: IN> Re: Princess of Nitpicking (was Re: GRAMMAR (Re: Fuzzy? (was Re: Character taxonomy))) Re: IN> Double Agents Re: IN> 3 questions Lucifer and Tabloids (was Re: IN> 3 questions Re: IN> Princess of Nitpicking Re: Lucifer and Tabloids (was Re: IN> 3 questions Re: Lucifer and Tabloids (was Re: IN> 3 questions Re: IN> Double Agents Re: IN> 3 questions Re: IN> Double Agents Re: IN> In nomine/X-files Re: IN> The Hell/Heaven (im?)balance IN> Sarcastic Lucifer IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #730 IN> The Demon of Gun Control ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:19:30 -0400 From: Stacy Stroud Subject: IN> Grigori SurturZ wrote: >In Briggs' A-Z of Angels, the bit about Grigori says that the whole >choir agreed to mate with humans, so that no one of them would be >responsible for the act (there's a quote about it, too, probably from >Enoch). If the Grigori were a very new choir, and there were only say >twenty or thirty in the band (a *reason* they might want to breed), it >is quite possible the whole choir was outcast. Ah, yes, I've read that too. Also, if I remember correctly from other sources, the traditional number of the Grigori is two hundred. A few more than 30, but still a small choir. It would be interesting to play Grigori under this setup. If there are so few, and they were Cast Out together, probably the surviving ones all know each other, at least by reputation. Do they avoid each other? Seek each other out? Are they the Illuminati? That kind of thing. Stacy Stroud sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:43:24 -0400 From: Jesse Subject: Re: IN> Grigori > Are they the Illuminati? That kind of thing. Of course not. There is no such thing as Illuminati. It is all just an acid trip of R.A. Wilson's. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:51:59 -0400 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> Re: Princess of Nitpicking IceHeart EvenFall wrote: > wouldn't it in fact be another level entirely? nitpicking the Princess of > Nitpicking herself would (at least in my mind) count as impressive a feat > as nitpicking some of the following... > > "Beth has higher distinctions, but so far, none of her Servitors have > managed to accurately nitpick Asmodeus, Baal, Kronos, Dominic, Laurence or > Yves and reported back." > > IceHeart, Calabim of Balial > Since we are nitpicking... Shouldn't that be "report back"? Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 01:28:00 +0100 From: Rhodri James Subject: Re: IN> Origins '98 On 24 Apr, Walter Milliken wrote: > I *was* going to be at GenCon this year, running several IN games, but I > canceled out; Elizabeth and I are going to WorldCon instead. With any > luck, there'll be some IN games running there. I'll probably do a > couple, if I can set it up. And WorldCon will probably be more > generally interesting than GenCon, too. Coo. Colour me interested! As long as the games don't coincide with the filking, or with an Ops shift, or with a real "must see" on the programme, or.... One of these days I really must learn how to say "No" and make it stick. - -- Rhodri James *-* Wildebeeste herder to the masses If you don't know who I work for, you can't misattribute my words to them ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:32:44 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: Princess of Nitpicking (was Re: GRAMMAR (Re: Fuzzy? (was Re: Character taxonomy))) At 11:24 AM -0400 4/27/98, IceHeart EvenFall wrote: >At 05:48 PM 4/24/98 -0500, you wrote: > >>Interesting; it seems that Princess Beth just fouled up. The article >>critiqued by David Chart was written by Princess Beth; as such, David did >>_not_ just "manage to correctly nitpick either a Seraph or an Elohite in >>pedantic mode", the requirement for the Knight of Nitpicking Distinction. >>Rather, he "managed to nitpick a Superior and gotten away with it" >>(assuming that he's a Servitor of Nitpicking; and if he's not, he >>shouldn't be receiving _any_ Nitpicking Distinctions to begin with), which >>is the qualification required for Baron(ess) of Retroactive Editing. > >wouldn't it in fact be another level entirely? nitpicking the Princess of >Nitpicking herself would (at least in my mind) count as impressive a feat >as nitpicking some of the following... > >"Beth has higher distinctions, but so far, none of her Servitors have >managed to accurately nitpick Asmodeus, Baal, Kronos, Dominic, Laurence or >Yves and reported back." What do you think I'm going to assign to my new Knight? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:07:45 +0100 (BST) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Re: Princess of Nitpicking On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, Andrew Frades wrote: > > "Beth has higher distinctions, but so far, none of her Servitors have > > managed to accurately nitpick Asmodeus, Baal, Kronos, Dominic, Laurence or > > Yves and reported back." > Shouldn't that be "report back"? Not necessarily. Both 'managed to nitpick and reported back' or 'managed to nitpick and report back' are correct, and mean almost precisely the same. However, it should probably be 'none of her Servitors *has*...' Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 18:12:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Kris Thomson Subject: Re: IN> Re: Princess of Nitpicking On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, Andrew Frades wrote: > > wouldn't it in fact be another level entirely? nitpicking the Princess of > > Nitpicking herself would (at least in my mind) count as impressive a feat > > as nitpicking some of the following... > > > > "Beth has higher distinctions, but so far, none of her Servitors have > > managed to accurately nitpick Asmodeus, Baal, Kronos, Dominic, Laurence or > > Yves and reported back." > > > > IceHeart, Calabim of Balial > > > Since we are nitpicking... > > Shouldn't that be "report back"? Probably, I just cut and pasted off the page, didn't realize I'd misquoted (damn, sounding like a habbalite now) IceHeart, Calabim of Belial ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 18:54:46 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> 3 questions At 7:57 PM -0400 4/24/98, Richard L Thomas wrote: > 3) Almost every one I meet LOVES Malakim. What gives? Malakim are honorable, have Good Views (by definition), and these sexy black wings. They also get to have the Big Weapons, which can be cathartic and fun. But mostly it's the Good View. (What you get when you're behind one.) That, and the erotic notion of having those hands -- those hands that have killed who knows how many, and will kill who knows how many more -- cradle one and protect one and... Um. Ah, I think that comes down to, "Malakim are Sexy." - --Beth, Archangel of Archives http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Angels/Arcangel.Beth.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:10:10 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: Princess of Nitpicking (was Re: GRAMMAR (Re: Fuzzy? (was Re: Character taxonomy))) At 10:51 PM -0400 4/24/98, Pee Kitty wrote: >On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Dataweaver wrote: > >> is the qualification required for Baron(ess) of Retroactive Editing. > >Change that to "is ONE OF the qualificationS" and you're correct. > >(Hmmm...maybe I should apply for service under Nitpicking....) - --Beth, Demon Princess of Nitpicking http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Demons/Prince.Beth.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:12:13 -0400 From: John Karakash - LUCENT ASCC Subject: Re: IN> IPG Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> 1. Bright Lilim choir attunements > > They, officially, don't get any. > > Ahem. This may change in future published canon. OW! Quit it or I'll tell Mom! (Ahem, myself. Sorry about that confusion. For NOW, they don't have any offical attunements.) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:22:32 -0400 From: John Karakash - LUCENT ASCC Subject: Re: IN> 3 questions Walter Milliken wrote: > > > 1) Is Lucifer still an Archangel? Personally I think he is even though he is a demon, I don't think the Seraphim Council has the "juice" to strip him of this "rank", and being that God is no longer participating.... > > No. In fact, he's *more* powerful than an Archangel -- he can grant > Words, something that takes the whole Seraphim Council (or God) to do on > the other side. Yup. He's neither a demon prince nor an archangel. He's Lucifer. 2) Hmmmm? I didn't see any extra restrictions on their powers, I'll take a look tonight. 3) Malakim are, to be blunt about it, just plain COOL. They are the archetypical butt-kickers and name-takers. They are the vengence of God made manifest and they are more than willing to discuss the finer points of heavenly retribution upon the beings of those who deserve it. They chew up nails and spit out hand grenades (or, at least, the Malakim of Eli do this...). They take on five demons before breakfast and can go through a dozen vessels in a day, if need be. =) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:17:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Knop Subject: Re: IN> Re: Princess of Nitpicking > > > "Beth has higher distinctions, but so far, none of her Servitors have > > > managed to accurately nitpick Asmodeus, Baal, Kronos, Dominic, Laurence or > > > Yves and reported back." > > > Shouldn't that be "report back"? > > Not necessarily. Both 'managed to nitpick and reported back' or 'managed > to nitpick and report back' are correct, and mean almost precisely the > same. > > However, it should probably be 'none of her Servitors *has*...' I dunno... sure looks to me like y'all are brown-nosing :) - -Rob, Djinn Servitor of Gluttony in service to Lightning (Figure that one out.) === Rob Knop === rknop@crl.com ==== http://www.wco.com/~rknop === Amiga PGP information at http://www.wco.com/~rknop/amiga_pgp Visit the Dramatic Exchange at http://www.dramex.org/ ================================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:25:14 -0400 From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: Re: IN> Grigori and Lilim From: Nana Yaw Ofori > > There's one thing that's been bothering me about the Grigori >thing:Assume Grigori have free will, for tje sake of argument. And well, >some of the Grigori prove eminently corruptible. Perhaps even most of them. >But there are some who stay faithful to Heaven, some who faithfully obey >the orders of their Archangels, and those of the Seraphim Council. But >there aren't, apparently, any Grigori still in Heaven. The whole Choir has >been Outcasted, and apparently, not a single one who has been yet found >worthy to be brought back into the fold. That's easy enough to solve, if you are willing to make a very small tweak to canon: Lilim are Fallen Grigori. After all, Lilith was recruited by Satan after refusing to bow down to Adam, which is the reason for the Fall in apocryphal Christian and mainline Islamic tradition. The Grigori were able to interbreed with humanity, which is rather necessary for a bride of Adam. :) The Grigori were supposed to be teachers and helpers of mankind, and the Lilim resonance is a twisted version of that -- they help people, and then they are able to demand a horrible price for their aid. The only change that would need to be made to the game mechanics is to remove the ability to lay a geas from any Lilim who goes bright. Maybe a change of the character of the ability is in order, too: say a Lilim detects what a human desires, and a bright Grigori detects what a human truly needs. (It fits cosmologically, too. The Grigori, closest to man, are able to detect what a particular human needs. The Mercurians, one step up, are able to tell where a human fits into the brotherhood of man.) Created Lilim are infertile because Lilith doesn't want competition -- she deliberately cripples her creations. (Which, again, fits the mythology as Lilith is traditionally associated with stillbirths and infertiility.) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 21:05:39 -0500 From: ehp Subject: IN> Double Agents Hello all. I was thinking about the whole heaven vs hell set up of the game, and looking at the powers that angels et al have at their disposal, and one thing became aparent to me. If we interpret the angelic war as more a war of espionage and counter espionage (not taken to the James bond extent, I emphasise) cold war, as opposed to the open battlefeild war of the Fall, then there are a few plot hooks that seem possible. But only if one includes the following stiputation: Are Arches and DPs able to immediately tell the level of dissonance or discord... or even fallen state of people under their employ? If not, there lies the possibility of double agents. What if, for example, a dissonant angel in the service of say... Fire, were approached over time by a member of the opposition with the same word. Suppose they come to an arrangement of passing information. Finally, trading dissonance for dicord moves to the next level, and Belial himself meets with the angel. And then converts him. Would it be possible for the fallen angel to stay in his position in the heavenly host, unbeknownst to Gabby, passing on inside info, even speaking with her and have her not realize immediately what was going on? Or indeed any other arch (save perhaps dom... but wouldn't that be a coup!) This creates all kinds of possibilities, and turns the entire war into a real espionage game... with agents never entirely sure about the chain of information, with much greater paranoia, and methods of false information being passed back and forth to discover where leaks are and the like.... Admitedly we have the Seraphim, who could spot lies instantly, but there are many ways arround them (ie don't lie to them, and never tell your agents the whole story, or if possible, tell them a wrong story). And further, most arches would be much too terrified of another iquisition to let on to Dom that they have a mole in their numbers, and have the secret police do a full investigation on them... prefering to clean house for themselves... What do people think? Is this possible within canon? Evan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:04:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> 3 questions - ---Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Um. Ah, I think > that comes down to, "Malakim are Sexy." > > > --Beth, Archangel of Archives Heh...Librarians... BTW, going off topic..I am keeping a collection of ALL stories related to Dark Victory...I dunno why...It's just a good idea...I just printed the story dealing with Where is the Archangel Beth? Anyone have any more stories, let me know! Graveyard Greg _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:46:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Re: Princess of Nitpicking (was Re: GRAMMAR (Re: Fuzzy? (was Re: Character taxonomy))) On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 10:51 PM -0400 4/24/98, Pee Kitty wrote: > >On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Dataweaver wrote: > > > >> is the qualification required for Baron(ess) of Retroactive Editing. > > > >Change that to "is ONE OF the qualificationS" and you're correct. > > > >(Hmmm...maybe I should apply for service under Nitpicking....) > > here, we can put it on in just a moment...> Whoa! Tattoo? I'm not sure...I still haven't figured out of I'm a Balseraph who's talked emself into believing e's a Habbalite, or a Habbalite under the delusion of being a Balseraph. Either way, that sounds really ominous to one part of me and strangely attractive to the other....:) Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! And finally, a special message to \|/ ____ \|/ anyone who thinks I give a damn... ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:55:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Double Agents On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, ehp wrote: > But only if one includes the following stiputation: Are Arches and > DPs able to immediately tell the level of dissonance or discord... or even > fallen state of people under their employ? In celestial form, *definitely*. In fact, even a common celestial can see if you have discord in that form; it's very clear. I believe that only a Superior can detect dissonance (and, of course, certain special Servitors of Dominic, etc.), but that's bad enough. As for falling? Only a quick glance at one's celestial form (which cannot be disguised) will show that. Now...if you mean, in CORPOREAL form...I'm not sure. I'd imagine so, however. Dominic can detect both dissonance and discord, per canon, and Kronos can detect discord; both of those Superiors grant attunements which allow it, you see. It would be a logical step to assume that any Superior could see it; perhaps other Superiors just have to squint a little. As for falling, definitely. When you fall, your heart shatters! Your Superior (unless he's Eli) will *definitely* notice that in the space of a day at most. Canon hasn't touched on it, but I'd imagine that the Superior would 'feel' a heart shattering, and could then return to their Cathedral or Principality to determine whose heart broke, when, and why. > If not, there lies the possibility of double agents. Sorry, but that is unlikely. The fallen double agent idea, at least. Now a dissonant celestial working for the other side is QUITE possible, but still difficult. If they didn't have dissonance, it's easier...and yes, it is quite possible to turn against your Superior while still avoiding all dissonance restrictions. > What do people think? Is this possible within canon? Fallen double agents? No...the shattering of the heart will bely ANY attempt to disguise a fall. Non-fallen double agents? Sure! Hard as hell to pull off, but sure...as long as your Superior isn't a Seraph.... Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! And finally, a special message to \|/ ____ \|/ anyone who thinks I give a damn... ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:58:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> 3 questions On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, Graveyard Greg wrote: > BTW, going off topic..I am keeping a collection of ALL stories related > to Dark Victory...I dunno why...It's just a good idea...I just printed > the story dealing with Where is the Archangel Beth? Anyone have any > more stories, let me know! I'm still hoping Redneck writes up Malphas, Haagenti, and Vapula. If he were to do that (in his nonexistant free time, yes, I know), DV would truly become a full online sourcebook. I've got everything on INC loaded into my word processor in a decent format, just waiting for the gaps to be filled in so I can print it out and actually run a DV campaign...I think it'd be a lot of fun. So Redneck, I know you're busy as hell, but if you do ever get some free time and the urge to write, there's several of us here who would LOVE to see some more work on DV. I know you've gotta be enamoured of the idea of dozens of gaming groups across the world playing a game in your custom setting...c'mon, just quit yer job or something. :) Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! And finally, a special message to \|/ ____ \|/ anyone who thinks I give a damn... ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:03:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Kinney Subject: Lucifer and Tabloids (was Re: IN> 3 questions > > > 1) Is Lucifer still an Archangel? Personally I think he is even though he is a demon, I don't think the Seraphim Council has the "juice" to strip him of this "rank", and being that God is no longer participating.... > > No. In fact, he's *more* powerful than an Archangel -- he can grant > Yup. He's neither a demon prince nor an archangel. > He's Lucifer. I meant to mention this earlier, but didn't. In last week's Weekly World News, they say that the whole war against God and all wasn't even Lucifer's idea. According to them, Lilith talked him into it. Discuss.... :-) alberich@iglou.com | Mark Kinney | http://www.iglou.com/nations "I went to GenCon to find out the Big Secret of Deadlands, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt" -- Something from my diseased mind ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:19:55 -0500 (CDT) From: Dataweaver Subject: Re: IN> Princess of Nitpicking On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, Pee Kitty wrote: > On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > > here, we can put it on in just a moment...> > > Whoa! Tattoo? I'm not sure...I still haven't figured out > of I'm a Balseraph who's talked emself into believing e's a Habbalite, > or a Habbalite under the delusion of being a Balseraph. Either way, that > sounds really ominous to one part of me and strangely attractive to the > other....:) Mmm... except that Habbalah know exactly what they are: Habbalah - the only true angels in existence. Speaking of Habbalah, I confess that I still have a very poor grasp on them; why would an angel willingly serve demon princes? It seems to me that Habbalites would be loath to serve anyone other than Nybbas or the handful of other Habbalite archangels... More to the point, how do they justify working within the hierarchy of Hell at all? - ---- Jonathan Lang ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver --------- Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing, FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer. submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:25:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Knop Subject: Re: Lucifer and Tabloids (was Re: IN> 3 questions > In last week's Weekly World News, they say that the whole war against God > and all wasn't even Lucifer's idea. > > According to them, Lilith talked him into it. > > Discuss.... :-) One HELL of a Geas. I wonder what she did for him? - -Rob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:42:38 -0400 From: Jesse Subject: Re: Lucifer and Tabloids (was Re: IN> 3 questions At 08:25 PM 4/27/98 -0700, you wrote: >> In last week's Weekly World News, they say that the whole war against God >> and all wasn't even Lucifer's idea. >> >> According to them, Lilith talked him into it. >> >> Discuss.... :-) > >One HELL of a Geas. I wonder what she did for him? Breed demons. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:03:01 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Double Agents >> If not, there lies the possibility of double agents. > >Sorry, but that is unlikely. The fallen double agent idea, at least. Now a >dissonant celestial working for the other side is QUITE possible, but >still difficult. If they didn't have dissonance, it's easier...and yes, it >is quite possible to turn against your Superior while still avoiding all >dissonance restrictions. > >> What do people think? Is this possible within canon? > >Fallen double agents? No...the shattering of the heart will bely ANY >attempt to disguise a fall. Non-fallen double agents? Sure! Hard as hell >to pull off, but sure...as long as your Superior isn't a Seraph.... > > >Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Then again, we have all those strings of whether Janus and Valefor are the same person. How about Kronos and Yves? While it would be harder for a "younger" celestial to pull it off, I think that it does bear some merit. Besides, it at least sounds like a fun alternate. Armand ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 06:50:23 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> 3 questions At 18:54 27/04/98 -0400, you wrote: >At 7:57 PM -0400 4/24/98, Richard L Thomas wrote: >> 3) Almost every one I meet LOVES Malakim. What gives? > >Malakim are honorable, have Good Views (by definition), and these >sexy black wings. They also get to have the Big Weapons, which can >be cathartic and fun. > I'm going to go and hide somewhere safe after I have sent this but I think it is partly because they are very easy to play ;-) Like paladins in AD&D, you never have to worry too much about what your character is going to do in any given situation. "Is there a demon there?" "OK, I want to try to kill it." "It's too powerful, you will be toast." "Err.. OK -- so I get planning to come back with friends or bigger guns and try to kill it ASAP." I love them to bits, but I think part of the appeal is that they aren't too demanding. Excellent NPCs for that very same reason :-) I offer in evidence, a snippet from last weekend's game. GM: Tom (the Malakite NPC) says he has a plan... PLAYER: Let me guess. He wants to storm off and kidnap the demon and torture it until it tells us everything, then kill it. GM: Err yes. That's exactly what he wants to do. jo - ---------- Chivalry is the art of lying magnificently. -- Ben Hecht jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 06:58:19 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Double Agents At 22:55 27/04/98 -0400, you wrote: >On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, ehp wrote: >. > >> If not, there lies the possibility of double agents. > >Sorry, but that is unlikely. The fallen double agent idea, at least. Now a >dissonant celestial working for the other side is QUITE possible, but >still difficult. If they didn't have dissonance, it's easier...and yes, it >is quite possible to turn against your Superior while still avoiding all >dissonance restrictions. > You could do it if you fiddled the background to make it much more likely that some of the superiors will tend to employ outcasts & renegades. You can never be entirely sure who one of those is working for, or who else is blackmailing them. I suspect that actually blackmail or entrapment would be the best ways to try to get a previously loyal servitor to turn double for you, especially if you went through some intermediaries so that hapless angel actually thinks it is helping out some deserving outcast, redemption candidate or angel who just happens to be in service to an opposing archangel. I remember a passage in one of the Smiley boks where the Russian spymaster describes how he recruited someone from British Intelligence by pretending his agent was actually working for an allied intelligence service. I'm sure they could do stuff that didn't involve dissonance. Sometimes all it would take would be passing on appropriate information. Seraphim & Mercurians might be a bit of a problem though. I rather like the James Bond/ Cold War feel. jo - ---------- Chivalry is the art of lying magnificently. -- Ben Hecht jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:40:35 -0500 From: "David C. Shadle" Subject: Re: IN> In nomine/X-files - ---------- > From: Kim Foster > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> In nomine/X-files > Date: Monday, April 27, 1998 2:30 PM > > At 08:46 AM 4/27/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Did anyone see the episode of the X-files this sunday? Nope I was busy watching Merlin > BTW:Does anyone on the list watch the show Millennium? I've found it very > inspirino for low powered Soilder type games of In Nomine. > I know violence doesn't solve all problems... Yes I do watch millenium, and its helped me in my Campaign ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 04:20:34 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN> The Hell/Heaven (im?)balance At 07:43 PM 24/04/98 -0400, you wrote: > > >Now, see, I differ with you in that I like things like this. > >It's true to the mythology/theology on which the game is (mostly) based. >Except for Zoroastrianism (which is, admittedly, the original source of the >whole angel/demon business), the religions that hold to the idea of the War >between Heaven and Hell see it as a decidedly unequal struggle. I think it >was fellow list-member Earl Wajenberg who first proposed the following >analogy, so I hope he doesn't mind too much if I swipe it. Lucifer is not >a king battling a rival king over neutral territory, but an upstart >crimelord who has taken over part of the king's kingdom. > >Of course, you don't have to play In Nomine in line with the actual beliefs >on which it is based. But I'm rather glad that canon IN stays at least >that true to the traditional source material. I was rather afraid the game >would be extremely dualistic in tone (w/ Heaven and Hell as two equal and >opposed forces). I was pleasantly surprised to find that angels and Heaven >are generally treated as the norm, and demons/Hell as an inferior deviation >from that norm. > >Note, though, that even in that case, the demons are neither clearly wrong >nor clearly fated to lose. They are rebels against the status quo, and >underdogs, but many worthy movements among humans have found themselves in >that position throughout history. (Not that I consider the Infernal cause >a worthy movement, but they're not bad *just* because they're >non-conformists.) > >Well, those are my thoughts on the matter. Later. > > >S >of course if following Judaism, Christianity and Islam, mainly the latter religions, Heaven is more powerful and the likely victor, but then they could hardly state that Heaven was losing, or worse yet, doomed to failure, that wouldn't sell very well, however, I like the idea of angels and demons removed from religion and mythology, and above it, with man's views warped by his own misunderstanding, and most of all, I like a War of equals, Underdogs are fun, but the clash of two great powers, like the U.S. and Russia, with the outcome uncertain, well, that is way more exciting, its like the two best football teams in the NFL playing at Superbowl, all or nothing, epic combat guaranteed. Simon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:48:56 +0100 From: "CA Smith" Subject: IN> Sarcastic Lucifer >> >> >If Lucifer won, then it would truly be a 'Dark Victory'! >> >Graveyard Greg >> >> >> How can the victory of someone with the word of light and a name >that means >> light bringer be /possibly/ termed as a 'Dark Victory' >> >> >> >> Chris >> >> Demon! >;-) >> >Check out the In Nomine Collection at the Steve Jackson Games >Websites...go to Fiction, and look for 'Dark Victory', then you will >see what I mean. > >But be afraid...VERY afraid! > >(mwah ha ha ha hahahahaha!!!!!) > >Graveyard Greg Sorry greg I was being Sarcastic, I've seen the site and think it's cool! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:53:58 +0100 From: "CA Smith" Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #730 > >On the Choir/Band attunements: why do Superiors (apparently) prefer to hand >out the more expensive Servitor attunements, rather than the Choir/Band >ones? Unless, of course, the game expense reflects nothing important about >the game-world, which is odd in itself. > >David Chart >Balseraph Knight of Nitpicking >Seraph Servitor of Destiny > The Band/Chior attunements are usually more specificly linked to the, surprise surprise, Band/Chior's ressonance/way of thinking etc but the servitor attunements are more widespread in their use to different Bands/Chiors. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 04:11:52 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> The Demon of Gun Control "How did you feel about coming back to school today?" The raven-haired woman's voice was soft and sympathetic, strangely in contrast to the detached look in her eyes, and the aloof, regal manner in which she sat facing the young girl in her office. To outward appearances, she was an attentive and compassionate listener, yet a careful (or angelic) observer would detect no more emotional involvement with her subject than with the pen tucked behind her ear. The middle school had called in a grief counselor after the tragedy, and she had insisted on seeing every student individually. Even the students who'd been absent the day of the shooting, she said, would be adversely affected by the psychological trauma, and it was vitally important that each person have an opportunity to come to terms with their grief. The girl she was talking to had been sitting stiffly in her seat, wearing a brave mask, but suddenly, as if someone had pulled a string, she doubled over and buried her face in her hands. Sobs racked her body, and she shuddered uncontrollably for several long minutes before she could even choke out a reply. Throughout this display, the counselor merely stared at her. The girl's head was bowed, her long blonde hair draped across her face, and no one else was in the room, so no one could see the older woman's slight, cold smile. "I...I was standing.... right....right next to her...." the girl gasped. The counselor nodded, her expression cool and serene as the girl looked up with red-rimmed eyes. "Jane's head just....exploded, while she was turning to say something to me..." The girl's voice caught again, then she moaned "OH GOD! Her blood ... and her brains .... all over me! I don't know why it was her and not me! She was my best friend! It should have been me!!!" She collapsed again, wailing inconsolably and rocking back and forth hugging herself, untouched and uncomforted by the strangely dispassionate counselor. *Yes, it should have,* thought the demon. *You're the one I was aiming at.* - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Karniah is an example of how Elohite cold-bloodedness can lead even a Word-bound angel to Fall. From his perspective, he's doing the same thing now that he did when he was the Angel of Gun Control, a Servitor of Judgment. While he may be working toward the same results, his methods have altered drastically. Gun control, like most laws pertaining to human society, isn't a hot topic among celestials - most of them see such laws only in terms of how much or how little inconvenience they generate. To angels and demons alike, guns are like all human tools, as good or as evil as the human wielding them. Dominic has never issued a mandate to his Servitors concerning the use of firearms. He does, however, desire an orderly and safe society. Some orderly and safe societies have been very well-armed; the United States in the late 20th century is suffering from the growing disparity between law-abiding citizens who find it increasingly difficult to own a firearm, and the lawless ones who find it easy to acquire them. The situation as it stands is unstable, but the solution is unclear. A return to law and order, say some of Dominic's Servitors, would return firearms to their proper status as weapons of hunting and self-defense for the law-abiding majority, while others insist that law and order has deteriorated too much in the U.S., and only a thorough crackdown that removes guns from circulation entirely has a hope of bringing back some safety and sanity. Dominic appointed an Elohite to study the matter. In due time, Kiriel offered his considered and objective opinion that a wholesale attempt to disarm the U.S. population would be both impractical, and detrimental to a society which held individual rights to be paramount. On the other hand, there were reasonable and practical measures that might reduce the number of weapons in circulation, and keep them out of the hands of those who shouldn't have them. Not with 100% effectiveness, but within what Kiriel called "an acceptable range given America's balancing of individual liberty against individual safety." Kiriel's careful, moderate opinion eventually led to his promotion to the Angel of Gun Control. He never sought to have guns totally outlawed, but he sought middle ground in the debate. This is perhaps what led him to trip, as modern American politics does not allow much of a middle ground in any such emotionally-charged issue. Mortal gun control advocates (and angels of Flowers) refused to settle for what they called half-hearted measures, when the real goal should be to outlaw guns entirely. Diehard gun rights advocates (including angels of War) drew a line in the sand at the slightest attempt to limit unrestricted access to heavy firepower. And Kiriel started to get frustrated. It was a long, slow process that led the Elohite to one day decide that drastic measures were needed in order to open some peoples' eyes. He staged what he considered to be an effective demonstration of the need for tightened legislation, in a state where the NRA was balking every attempt at reforms. His demonstration left six people dead and a small town in shock. To Kiriel's dismay, however, the response was not a careful bill that would prevent a similar tragedy from being repeated without infringing on the 2nd Amendment; instead, the politicians reacted with hysteria, and simply banned every model of firearm that happened to resemble the weapon used to commit the crime in question. It was a silly law that accomplished nothing and was ultimately struck down by the Supreme Court. Gun control advocates continued to scream that it didn't go far enough, while gun owners bleated that it was infringing on their rights. Nothing was solved. Kiriel picked another state, and tried again. A few more demonstrations later, Kiriel realized that only tragedies of greater proportion would wake up the ignorant fools that balked his attempts to save them from their idiocy. Humanity could only learn from bloodshed; mere reason was insufficient, because the selfish gun nuts and the hysterical gun control advocates alike were all just so much irrational cattle, reacting in kneejerk Pavlovian fashion to every media event. Asmodeus welcomed Karniah into his ranks, and had no trouble persuading Lucifer of the savage irony in granting the new Habbalite the same Word he had held before. - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Karniah The Demon of Gun Control Habbalite Knight of the Game Corporeal Forces - 3 (Strength 5, Agility 7) Ethereal Forces - 5 (Intelligence 8, Precision 12) Celestial Forces - 5 (Will 10, Perception 10) Vessels: Human/2 (Adult male), Human/2 (Adult female), both vessels have Charisma +1 Roles: Gun Control Lobbyist/4, Status 4 (Ebenezer Locke), Grief Counselor/3, Status 3 (Constance Ash) Skills: Driving/2, Emote/4, Fast-Talk/4, Knowledge (Firearms/4, Gun Control Laws/6, Psychology/3), Ranged Weapon (Pistol/2, Rifle/3), Savoir-Faire/4 Songs: Attraction (Corporeal/4, Ethereal/3, Celestial/3), Charm (Celestial/2), Form (Ethereal/4, Celestial/3), Possession/5, Shields (Corporeal/3) Attunements: Habbalite of the Game, Humanity, Knight of Judgment, Demon of Gun Control Special Attunement: As the Demon of Gun Control, Karniah is automatically successful at using his resonance, Songs or any social skills against anyone who is carrying or holding a firearm (roll anyway, for the check digit and Interventions -- and the subject still gets a resistance roll where applicable). Special Rites: Karniah receives a point of Essence for each person in which he succeeds in instilling an irrational fear and loathing of firearms (as opposed to instilling a healthy amount of caution). He can perform this Rite multiple times per day, or multiple times at once.... He also receives a point of Essence for engineering any incident which provokes a national debate on gun control. - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Karniah is now a staunch supporter of gun control, any gun control. He doesn't really care what laws are passed or whether they actually have an effect on gun violence, but if he can push the public into supporting more restrictions on gun ownership, he has successfully exerted his will upon humanity, and more importantly, made it more difficult for humans to defend themselves -- mortals shouldn't be carrying around weapons with which they might be able to take out their betters... Although he maintains one high-profile Role as a gun control lobbyist (who specializes in histrionic appeals to emotion), Karniah recently took on a new role, that of a "grief counselor." Previously, he would simply use his Habbalite resonance to push somebody unstable into gunning down a bunch of people, after making sure his victim had gotten his hands on a really big, ugly gun. Occasionally he possessed someone and went on a shooting spree himself, when he wanted to kill someone in particular (or at the behest of Asmodeus, since blowing away an angel or a Renegade in a highly public manner is a good way to kill two birds with one Song). Now, however, he's increasingly targeting schools and other gathering places for children, and then moving in afterwards to maximize the post-traumatic stress as Constance Ash. Asmodeus likes Karniah's work because he's encouraging irrational and arbitrary legislation, exactly the kind that makes a mockery of the legal system, and frustrates angels of Judgment no end. Gun control laws also tend to inconvenience angels more than demons, since angels have marginally more respect for human laws... or at least are more likely to maintain Roles that can't be seen committing felonies. Most demons favor gun control - - a disarmed populace is easier prey. It's not as if Baal's Servitors will ever have trouble arming their Soldiers... Not all of Hell's Princes appreciate Karniah's work. Saminga, with his usual poor grasp of subtlety, likes the bloodbaths but doesn't understand why Karniah is trying to restrict gun ownership. Guns don't kill, people do, but people with guns kill better - Saminga thinks it would be much better if everyone had guns. And Vapula also would like fewer restrictions....a society that allowed private ownership of everything up to and including nuclear weapons would give him a magnificent testing ground. Most of Hell, however, is happy to jump on the gun control bandwagon. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #732 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.