From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Apr 29 19:39:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA18877 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:39:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id TAA10194 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:37:08 -0500 Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:37:08 -0500 Message-Id: <199804300037.TAA10194@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #736 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, April 29 1998 Volume 01 : Number 736 In this digest: IN> [Talisman] Practical Advice for Practical People IN> A possibly stupid question... Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions Re: IN> A possibly stupid question... Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions Re: IN> A possibly stupid question... Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions Re: IN> A possibly stupid question... Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions Re: IN> A possibly stupid question... Re: IN> Angels & Gun Control Re: IN> A possibly stupid question... Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions IN> The big picture? (was Re: Angels & Gun Control) Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions Re: IN> Question about Motion (Celestial) Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions Re: IN> Origins '98 Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions Re: IN> Origins '98 Re: IN> The Demon of Gun Control Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions Re: IN> Limbo Re: IN> Re: IN- Limbo Re: IN> Double Agents IN> The Demon of Gun Control IN> IN Mapboard Combat Re: IN> A possibly stupid question... Re: IN> A possibly stupid question... Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions Re: IN> The Demon of Gun Control Re: IN> The Demon of Gun Control Re: IN> The Demon of Gun Control IN> Stern Warnings (Re: The Demon of Gun Control) RE: IN> The Demon of Gun Control ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:09:25 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: IN> [Talisman] Practical Advice for Practical People I admit it, I like having books in RPGs -- tomes, librams, codexes, cheap paperbacks, the whole nine yards. So here's one from the Game. Practical Advice for Practical People The Prince of the Game personally hands out copies of this volume to his favored servitors. This slim, leatherbound book is small enough to fit comfortably in a jacket pocket, and contains a series of aphorisms and brief meditations on the art of the Game hand-penned by Asmodeus himself. The icy wit and briliantly cynical observations contained within are enough to make anyone who consults this book a more effective politician (+1 to Lying, Fast-Talk, and Tactics). There are rumors that the _Practical Advice_ exists to manipulate its readers, and many demons who possess copies of this work try to do the opposite of what it suggests. More paranoid demons just shake their heads and point out that Asmodeus could have anticipated that response and used it foreclose certain avenues of action; no one can reliably outfox the Prince of the Game. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:12:06 -0700 (PDT) From: "Matt 'Badger' Rossi III" Subject: IN> A possibly stupid question... Hi, I'm Matt, and I'm new. Anyway...do Soldiers of God/Hell count as human for killing purposes? Ferinstance...if say, seven Soldiers of Hell jumped a Malakite, can the Malakite kill them without sending up an enormous flare that's sure t grab the attention of every single celstial for miles and miles? I assume that they _are_ considerd human, but an argument could be made that once you gain that extra force, you lose that protection... opinions? Matthew Rossi ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:11:02 -0400 From: Jesse Subject: Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions >I'm tempted to send the Game after you for the Leonard diCaprio casting. >That would be like casting Barney as Saminga, and we all know how bad that >would be. Hey, people really do lust after diCaprio. If you want a good diCaprio movie to see, skip Titanic, the ship sinks sorry I ruined it for you, and rent the Basketball Diaries. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:26:54 +0100 () From: "David.Evans" Subject: Re: IN> A possibly stupid question... Matthew Rossi sic scribit... > > Hi, I'm Matt, and I'm new. > Never mind. We forgive you. ;-) > Anyway...do Soldiers of God/Hell count as human for killing > purposes? Yep. Absolutely. > Ferinstance...if say, seven Soldiers of Hell jumped > a Malakite, can the Malakite kill them without sending up > an enormous flare that's sure t grab the attention of every > single celstial for miles and miles? > Not at all. Killing seven soldiers (or any seven humans) will give off 70 disturbance (10 for each human killed), plus one extra point of disturbance for every four points of damage they take inthe process of expiring, *plus* one extra disturbance for every Essence spent, plus any extra disturbance from using Songs et cetera. Given an average 3 Celestial Force demon/angel with 6 Perception, that base 70 Disturbance would be heard by that average Celestial (*quick mental calculation*) automatically up to 65*70*3 = 13650 yards away, which is over _eight_miles_away_! Here endeth the lesson... > I assume that they _are_ considerd human, but an argument could be > made that once you gain that extra force, you lose that protection... > opinions? > Nope. You gain concious control over your Essence expenditure, you become able to detect Distubances in the Symphony, but you're still human even for all of that. You're still one of God's most complex creations, and so offing you before your alotted time makes a *big* bang in the Symphony. Be seeing you... David. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:26:07 -0400 From: Jesse Subject: Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions >> In follow up to my assignment of actors to Archangels I am now auditioning >>for the Lords of Hell, this time instead of doing it myself I will approve >>recommendations from those on the list. So lets do lunch, oh yeah, we'll >>start off with the first three, Andrealphus, Asmodeus and Beleth. >> Remember, if the actor or actress is obscure, refer to which movie he/she >>starred in, and have fun :) Andre: a young Hugh Hefner, no he is not an actor but is best suited to the role Asmodeus: Bill Cosby, he's got the prefect disguse. Who would expect the spokesman for Jello would be a Demon Prince? Baal: Ronald Reagan Beleth: Paula Pundstone, hey she's my nightmare. Belial: Jack Nickleson Haagenti: Marlon Brando Kobal: Woody Allen Kronos: George Burns, hey Kronos is supposed to be the opposite number of Yves right? Well did you see Oh God, You Devil? Malphas: Stepheno from Days of Our Lives Nybbas: Ted Turner Valefor: Clint Eastwood, just watch Absolute Power Vapula: Whoever it was who played Dr. Strangelove - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:29:40 -0400 From: Jesse Subject: Re: IN> A possibly stupid question... >Hi, I'm Matt, and I'm new. > >Anyway...do Soldiers of God/Hell count as human for killing >purposes? Ferinstance...if say, seven Soldiers of Hell jumped >a Malakite, can the Malakite kill them without sending up >an enormous flare that's sure t grab the attention of every >single celstial for miles and miles? Well one issue is wheter or not the Malakite can kill all of them. But if it does, yes the Soldiers are human for all purposes. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:44:48 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions Jesse wrote: > Vapula: Whoever it was who played Dr. Strangelove Peter Sellers, best known as Inspector Clousseau in the "Pink Panther" movies. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:49:47 -0400 From: Jesse Subject: Re: IN> A possibly stupid question... >Not at all. Killing seven soldiers (or any seven humans) will give off >70 disturbance (10 for each human killed), plus one extra point of >disturbance for every four points of damage they take inthe process of >expiring, *plus* one extra disturbance for every Essence spent, plus any >extra disturbance from using Songs et cetera. Given an average 3 >Celestial Force demon/angel with 6 Perception, that base 70 Disturbance >would be heard by that average Celestial (*quick mental calculation*) >automatically up to 65*70*3 = 13650 yards away, which is over >_eight_miles_away_! Here endeth the lesson... Don't forget the disturbance from 7x6=42 forces leaving the copreal realm either. >> I assume that they _are_ considerd human, but an argument could be >> made that once you gain that extra force, you lose that protection... >> opinions? >> > >Nope. You gain concious control over your Essence expenditure, you >become able to detect Distubances in the Symphony, but you're still human >even for all of that. You're still one of God's most complex creations, >and so offing you before your alotted time makes a *big* bang in the >Symphony. Note that soilders, expect prehaps when performing songs, do not cause disturbances either. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:00:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions > Vapula: Whoever it was who played Dr. Strangelove The late, great Peter Sellers. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:04:53 -0700 (PDT) From: "Matt 'Badger' Rossi III" Subject: Re: IN> A possibly stupid question... > > Matthew Rossi sic scribit... > > > > Hi, I'm Matt, and I'm new. > > > > Never mind. We forgive you. ;-) Thank you kindly, both for the forgiveness, and the answer. > > > Anyway...do Soldiers of God/Hell count as human for killing > > purposes? > > Yep. Absolutely. Cool. Believe it or not, that's what I wanted to hear, as if they didn't this paricular Malakite could kill them pretty damn easily...but I need him to get whittled down a few pegs by them. So now, he can't just haul off and kill them with impunity (He's on a stealth mission.) Thanks again Matthew ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:19:27 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Angels & Gun Control On Wed, 29 Apr 1998, Frank Lazar wrote: > At 11:56 AM +0200 04/29/1998, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > OTOH, I find the DP:s who care about every single > >damned soul much scarier - Saminga is mostly silly, while Kronos gives off > >very bad vibes. > > Actually as described, Kronos is exactly the opposite of Yvves in his > considerations. He really only "cares" about the major movers and shakers > the "pillars" of Destiny or Fate. Yeah, but he takes an interest in the very details of those peoples' lives. I guess it's his servants that are more creepy - at least the competent ones. :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! "I kick arse for the Lord!" - Father McGruder ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:19:22 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> A possibly stupid question... Jesse wrote: > You're still one of God's most complex creations, and so offing > you before your alotted time makes a *big* bang in the > Symphony. This reminds me of something I've wondered from time to time. Are angels and disembodied souls very *simple*? The IN book says that everything is an interplay of Forces, so one assumes a Force is a more general category of which things like quarks and electrons are special varieties. But a human body, or any macroscopic physical object, has countless numbers of these particles in it. Is a single Force on a par with a single quark -- though, one assumes, at a very much higher level of energy, in the case of the Forces in a soul or celestial? Just vaporing. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 00:38:11 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions >>I'm tempted to send the Game after you for the Leonard diCaprio casting. >>That would be like casting Barney as Saminga, and we all know how bad that >>would be. > >Hey, people really do lust after diCaprio. If you want a good diCaprio >movie to see, skip Titanic, the ship sinks sorry I ruined it for you, >and rent the Basketball Diaries. > >-Jesse Of course, most of the people lusting after good ol' Leo are pre pubescent girls; maybe Andrealphus is downsizing. Nah! I'd cast Jack Nicolson, then you start tapping into the adult market. Of course, I think that the most ideal DP of Lust would be Kevin Bacon. Not because people would be lusting after him, just the fact that he's been in movies with nigh on everyone, "So, you like Michelle Pfeifer? Look, I did a film with Bob, and he and her go way back..." That's just my take, Armand Ofanim of the Further From Leo, the Better! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 00:42:08 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions >Vapula: Whoever it was who played Dr. Strangelove > >-Jesse I think that it was Peter Sellers (playing every other role in the movie!) Shame that he's dead, but that could just be his corporeal vessel. Armand ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:53:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Joe Iglesias Subject: Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions On Wed, 29 Apr 1998, Jesse wrote: > Kobal: Woody Allen No no no. Jerry Springer. Think about it. He manages to get people to come on his show *willingly* (for the sake of argument) to disgrace themselves nationwide. He transparently uses his guests and sometimes even insults them to their faces, but they all treat him like he's their best bud (Impudite resonance helps). I'd like to think Kobal would have a little more style, but he's too good a meta-fit. Joe - ------ Big Brother's watching? Learn to become Invisible. "To fall in love is to create a religion that has a fallible god."-- Jorge-Luis Borges How I waste my time: http://acs1.bu.edu:8001/~arie/rpg.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 16:53:54 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: IN> The big picture? (was Re: Angels & Gun Control) >From: Anders Gabrielsson > >On Tue, 28 Apr 1998, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > >> I will now desperately try to relate this back to my main point: the >> celestials aren't really interested by broad trends or the big picture. >> Each person's salvation (or damnation) is the reason they are on the >> ground, and this is an intensely personal thing. For each person, a gun >> (or a screwdriver, or a car, or a refrigerator..) can be a positive >> or negative influence, and the only that matters is the particular case >> the angel (or demon) is faced with. Does that make any sense? > >I think the perspective varies from celestial to celestial, just as it >does for humans. Some are more interested in the Big Picture (and for >celestials that is -the- Big Picture), while others don't feel very >connected to the big things happening, but are more interested in how to >save/damn the little old lady running the candy store on the corner. The >scary AA:s are the ones -only- looking at the Big Picture, IMO - they >don't care if one person, or a hundred, or a million, is damned, as long >as they win the War. OTOH, I find the DP:s who care about every single >damned soul much scarier - Saminga is mostly silly, while Kronos gives off >very bad vibes. While I definitely agree that the Demon Princes who pay extra-special attention to each human soul are the most frightening ones, I don't think I share your view about big-picture angels. Partly, it's the underlying cosmology of my own game that's at work. In my game God really is omnipotent and there is no chance in Hell (so to speak) that Lucifer will ever be able to march into Heaven and seat himself on the throne of God. This means that the War is absolutely and utterly about human souls, and so it doesn't really make sense to "concentrate on the overall War" without paying attention to individual humans. But this is clearly something that varies from GM to GM -- YMMV, IMC, and all those abbreviations. The other reason is more general, though. It's that salvation and human comfort are not the same thing, and an angel's attention is not what you want if you want to keep your worldview intact. An example might be useful to illustrate this point. In my own game, probably the scariest (from a human POV) angel in the area is Jamin, an Elohite of the Wind. He's scary because he's out to show humans the absolute and utter love God has for them. What this means is that he will find someone who is comfortable, well-off and doesn't pay much attention to the hereafter. Then he will pull an Ecclesiastes on them -- he will demonstrate the passing and ephemeral nature of things of this world by taking them away. They will lose every thing of this world that they value, from their skills to their jobs to their health to their friends to their very self-respect -- they will lose it *all*. And then he is there to tell them God will still have them, even in their impoverished state, even though they come to Him only because they have lost everything else. That is something few, if any, angels would have a problem with; after all, divine love /is/ better than earthly comfort. Most would prefer if their were less drastic means of getting the human's attention, but Jamin would know if there were. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:53:18 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions At 00:42 29/04/98 -0800, you wrote: >>Vapula: Whoever it was who played Dr. Strangelove >> >>-Jesse > >I think that it was Peter Sellers (playing every other role in the movie!) >Shame that he's dead, but that could just be his corporeal vessel. > We can rebuild him. We have the technology. jo - ---------- Chivalry is the art of lying magnificently. -- Ben Hecht jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:10:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Question about Motion (Celestial) On Wed, 29 Apr 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > I would like to know: > > A) What is the ruling on teleporting objects? You can teleport up to 30 pounds, plus CFx10 pounds per extra Essence spent. The object has to be within range of the song; the maximum range it can be teleported depends on the level of your song and the check digit (no book with me, thus no references). > B) What is the ruling on picking the destination of teleportation? I wasn't aware there was a dispute about it; it seems to me that the rules make it relatively clear that you can choose the destination you teleport to. Wouldn't be very useful otherwise. > C) Can you teleport something into someone? IANANR, but no, I don't believe you can. That's WAY too deadly. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! And finally, a special message to \|/ ____ \|/ anyone who thinks I give a damn... ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:19:35 -0400 From: Jesse Subject: Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions >> Kobal: Woody Allen > >No no no. Jerry Springer. Think about it. He manages to get people to >come on his show *willingly* (for the sake of argument) to disgrace >themselves nationwide. He transparently uses his guests and sometimes >even insults them to their faces, but they all treat him like he's their >best bud (Impudite resonance helps). > >I'd like to think Kobal would have a little more style, but he's too good >a meta-fit. Ah, but Springer's show is good and catheric for the nation. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 00:03:12 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Origins '98 On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Walter Milliken wrote: > >> jason, wishing sj would show at origins... > > I suspect the story with Origins is similar to the one with GenCon -- > Andon (WotC) runs both. See http://www.sjgames.com/ill/ill-feb98.html > and look down near the bottom for the Feb 4th entry. > > The short answer seems to be that the big gaming conventions don't > really help promote sales enough for the amount they cost now. But note > that SJGames (and SJ himself) is going to a number of *SF* conventions. Including Incon in Indianapolis the same week-end as Origans. > I *was* going to be at GenCon this year, running several IN games, but I > canceled out; Elizabeth and I are going to WorldCon instead. With any > luck, there'll be some IN games running there. I'll probably do a > couple, if I can set it up. And WorldCon will probably be more > generally interesting than GenCon, too. Too bad, your not coming to Milkyway. The Snow leopards just had another batch of cubs as did the tigres. Is anyone planning on coming to Gen-Con? Shadowcat All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 02:40:44 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions Jo Hart wrote: > > At 00:42 29/04/98 -0800, you wrote: > >>Vapula: Whoever it was who played Dr. Strangelove > >> > >>-Jesse > > > >I think that it was Peter Sellers (playing every other role in the movie!) > >Shame that he's dead, but that could just be his corporeal vessel. > > > > We can rebuild him. We have the technology. > > jo I think that there is a Lilim out there with an awfully large geas tied to one DP. Armand ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:50:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Ben-Prime Subject: Re: IN> Origins '98 On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Shadowcat wrote: > > The short answer seems to be that the big gaming conventions don't > > really help promote sales enough for the amount they cost now. But note > > that SJGames (and SJ himself) is going to a number of *SF* conventions. > > Including Incon in Indianapolis the same week-end as Origans. For that matter, is anyone going to make an appearance at Dragon*Con in Atlanta, on Labor Day Weekend? Ben - ----- emrys@netrox.net ---------------- http://www.netrox.net/~emrys/ ------ "When I am working on a problem, I never think about beauty. I think only how to solve the problem. But when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong." -- R. Buckminster Fuller - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- WhHi6G2>3 LCJRo hBrc+++g b69/83 B3^E1# a27+ sM1N10~ K8p k3BdSAbCehIOpRrTtxX QbEKLMRTtO v64s opLSO X6#7 w7T r6IsLM E+++ p9f7v4&g4s8 D36C(c*P*!# Hco+usFL7 - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:15:33 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> The Demon of Gun Control On Wed, 29 Apr 1998, Jesse wrote: > It hardly seems logical to me that any angel would support the existance > of guns. Of course I am a pacifist, a condition viewed almost like > mental illness here in America. Well, a substantial number of angels are strongly *not* pacifistic: think of David, Gabriel, Laurence, and Michael. I think Gabriel especially would be in favor of widespread gun ownership and carry (let the cruel be instantly punished at the hands of their victims, oh *yes*....). I imagine Dominic would have very strong opinions that gun control laws in the U.S. should be passed only by Constitutional Amendment, and the equivalent in any countries with written Constitutions. That having been said, there's a very substantial U.S. based study done by Lott and Mustard which showed that must-issue concealed carry permits *reduce* violent crime by a small but statistically significant (five to ten percent) margin. Comparisons by country mostly show that gun ownership is washed out by cultural factors. (The U.S. has a lot of gun ownership and a high violence rate compared to Western Europe; Switzerland, Canada, and Israel also have a lot of gun ownership and a violence rate in line with the rest of the industrialized world. Mexico and Jamaica forbid gun ownership more strictly than the U.S. does, and have more violence than we do. In fact, rising crime rates in Mexico City - with thugs that have no problems acquiring guns - have prompted protests in support of gun ownership ("If the police can't defend us, at least let have guns to defend ourselves.")) Some of the angels who don't like violence might believe in gun ownership as deterrence. Remember that even Novalis's dissonance condition is *unnecessary violence*, not all violence. It used to be a matter of Christian doctrine that you were *obliged* to defend yourself if attacked: not doing so was suicidal and a sin because suicide was a sin. Since Laurence and Dominic are firmly Christian, fairly old-fashioned about it, and not "turn the other cheek"(1) people, they probably believe this themselves. This doesn't necessarily mean that they'd be in favor of legal gun ownership, but it suggests they'd want people to own guns where it *is* legal. (1) Slapping someone on the cheek was a classic Roman insult, the way an old-fashioned woman in this country might slap a man. Exortations to turn the other cheek if slapped do not necessarily mean to not resist if threatened. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:58:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions - ---Simon Hailes wrote: > > In follow up to my assignment of actors to Archangels I am now auditioning > for the Lords of Hell, this time instead of doing it myself I will approve > recommendations from those on the list. So lets do lunch, oh yeah, we'll > start off with the first three, Andrealphus, Asmodeus and Beleth. > Remember, if the actor or actress is obscure, refer to which movie he/she > starred in, and have fun :) > Simon > > Beleth: Angelica Huston--did a great Morticia in Addams Familiy Andrealphus: Nikki Cox from Unhappily Ever After Asmodeus: Patrick Stewart? These are just suggestions, and since I wasn't here for Archangel auditions, I'd just like to say Lucy Lawless would make a great Gabriel... Graveyard Greg _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:57:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> Limbo - ---Dataweaver wrote: > > On Tue, 28 Apr 1998, Graveyard Greg wrote: > > > IS there any info on Limbo in the supplement Heaven and Hell? Can > > someone give me the gist of it, if any info exists? > > > > I have an idea percolating in my head, and I need information! > > Limbo is a non-place; celestials who wind up there find themselves > suffering from total sense deprivation until they gain enough Essence to > escape; this is because there is literally nothing to sense. You are > totally isolated from anything and everything. > Hmmmmmmmm....*idea forming in head* Graveyard Greg _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 16:05:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Limbo - ---David Streeter wrote: > > [H&H SPOILERS] > > > > >IS there any info on Limbo in the supplement Heaven and Hell? > > Yes, there is. > > > Can someone give me the gist of it, if any info exists? > > It's where heartless celestials go when they are slain corporeally. You > can do nothing except gain essence in limbo. There is no maximum to the > amount you can store, but you only gain essence at a rate of 1/week. The > only thing you can spend this on is a new corporeal vessel, which costs > LOTS of essence. You have to make a will roll every so often to make > sure you don't go mad with sensory deprivation. You can't make vessels > in this way anywhere except limbo. > > SurturZ > > > Mad with sensory deprivation...? Gain lots of essence...I think I've got an idea...Boy, am I going to get yelled at for this one for being non-canon... Graveyard Greg _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 16:12:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> Double Agents - ---Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > I thought Gabriel noticed that the Essence used in summoning her was > generated by a non-Fire Rite. Gabriel did notice that about the Essence...Big Archangel is watching you! Graveyard Greg _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:10:48 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> The Demon of Gun Control >>>It hardly seems logical to me that any angel would support the existance of guns. Of course I am a pacifist, a condition viewed almost like mental illness here in America.<<< And by Malakim. ;) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:10:52 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> IN Mapboard Combat >>>(David Edelstein - Sorry, you owe a favour or two to some of my Lilim. That will teach you to have a Latte at Washington DC airport :-)<<< Well, was it a _good_ Latte at least? - -David (who hasn't actually been to Dulles, but I probably would take a Geas if I could find really GOOD coffee in Korea...) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:34:10 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> A possibly stupid question... At 11:12 AM -0700 4/29/98, Matt 'Badger' Rossi III wrote: >Hi, I'm Matt, and I'm new. Howdy. >Anyway...do Soldiers of God/Hell count as human for killing >purposes? Yes. >Ferinstance...if say, seven Soldiers of Hell jumped >a Malakite, can the Malakite kill them without sending up >an enormous flare that's sure t grab the attention of every >single celstial for miles and miles? No. >I assume that they _are_ considerd human, but an argument could be >made that once you gain that extra force, you lose that protection... >opinions? Human is human. You can't even toast a Saint without disturbance. This is why they're obnoxious. At 2:49 PM -0400 4/29/98, Jesse wrote: >>Not at all. Killing seven soldiers (or any seven humans) will give off >>70 disturbance (10 for each human killed), plus one extra point of >>disturbance for every four points of damage they take inthe process of >>expiring, *plus* one extra disturbance for every Essence spent, plus any >>extra disturbance from using Songs et cetera. Given an average 3 >>Celestial Force demon/angel with 6 Perception, that base 70 Disturbance >>would be heard by that average Celestial (*quick mental calculation*) >>automatically up to 65*70*3 = 13650 yards away, which is over >>_eight_miles_away_! Here endeth the lesson... > >Don't forget the disturbance from 7x6=42 forces leaving the copreal realm >either. No, that only counts for celestials assuming celestial form and going byebye. It does not count for humans (or vessels!) dying and the soul/celestial going to its final reward/Heart/Limbo. Oh, yes, and possessed hosts make disturbance if they do celestial things (use Essence, hit something for damage, kill a human), *and* if they're hit. (Kyrios, Shedim, & Song of Possession.) >>Nope. You gain concious control over your Essence expenditure, you >>become able to detect Distubances in the Symphony, but you're still human >>even for all of that. You're still one of God's most complex creations, >>and so offing you before your alotted time makes a *big* bang in the >>Symphony. > >Note that soilders, expect prehaps when performing songs, do not >cause disturbances either. Exactly. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 16:24:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> A possibly stupid question... - ---Matt 'Badger' Rossi III wrote: > > Hi, I'm Matt, and I'm new. So was I, but these guys beat the crap outta me until I got the scars nicely settled in... > > Anyway...do Soldiers of God/Hell count as human for killing > purposes? Ferinstance...if say, seven Soldiers of Hell jumped > a Malakite, can the Malakite kill them without sending up > an enormous flare that's sure t grab the attention of every > single celstial for miles and miles? > > I assume that they _are_ considerd human, but an argument could be > made that once you gain that extra force, you lose that protection... > opinions? > > Matthew Rossi > > Good question, Matt! I'll say they are human, because of the simple fact that I didn't read anywhere that they _don't_ lose the protection when they get that extra force. Graveyard Greg _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:08:14 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions At 10:47 PM 28/04/98 -0800, you wrote: >>In a message dated 4/28/98 8:23:52 PM, hailes@senet.com.au writes: >> >>> In follow up to my assignment of actors to Archangels I am now auditioning >>>for the Lords of Hell, this time instead of doing it myself I will approve >>>recommendations from those on the list. So lets do lunch, oh yeah, we'll >>>start off with the first three, Andrealphus, Asmodeus and Beleth. >>> Remember, if the actor or actress is obscure, refer to which movie he/she >>>starred in, and have fun :) >>> Simon >>Leonardo diCaprio (Andrephalus) >>Al Pachino (Asmodeus) >>Sigourney Weaver (Beleth) >>Kenneth Brannaugh (Baal) >>John Malkovich (Belial) >> So I added a couple, so send the Game after me... >> Mark > >I'm tempted to send the Game after you for the Leonard diCaprio casting. >That would be like casting Barney as Saminga, and we all know how bad that >would be. > >Armand >Ofanim of Get Me Away From the Titanic Furvor! NOW! > >Yay, another believer amongst the Heathen Simon > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 00:32:36 +0100 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> The Demon of Gun Control David Edelstein writes: >>>>It was a response to my "Demon of the Second Amendment". As requested. >Either that or the biggest coincidence I've encountered for a while.<<< > > >The former. My "rebuttal" wasn't so much because I disagreed with your >politics (though I do ), but because I disagreed with the way you framed >them in In Nomine terms. Very few things are so black and white, either in >the real world or in the In Nomine world, that you can state as a fact that >one position or another is the Heavenly or Infernal one. Thus, I found >labeling the 2nd Amendment as a diabolical contrivance to engineer >bloodshed to be simplistic. > >I could do the same with any topic -- even, say abortion. I can easily >imagine both demons and angels who are on the pro-life and the pro-choice >side. > >- -David > I cannot agree. Not *any* topic. For my tastes, that's liberalising Heaven a little too much. In the example of abortion, any angel advocating the pro-choice approach should be well on his way to Falling, IMHO. Although IN is played in various shades, there are some things that are seen by Heaven as simply being 'wrong', and abortion has to be one of them. Its murder after all. The ability of one human to knowingly and willingly extinguish the life of another, and, even more, a complete innocent at that (unless you believe in Original Sin). I can't think of any Superior either that would condone the pro-choice approach in his servitors. Any angel going around openly supporting it would (IMC) attract the immediate attention of Judgement, Armisael (The Angel of the Womb), Christopher (and his Malakim), and quite possibly; Eli. And Maybe more. And none of them would be in Good Moods. Don't wish to sound like I'm raving, but I sincerely feel that there have to be some areas in the game strongly seen *as* Black and White. Otherwise, Heaven isn't really Heaven anymore. Admittance becomes desirable over that to Hell simply because you don't get tortured when you go there. (Incidentally; Abortion, for those unaware. was originally attributed to Kasdeja, or Kasdaye, originally a Watcher, who quite possibly has now thrown his lot in with Hell (Saminga - in service to Kronos?). - -- Julian jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 00:51:14 +0100 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> The Demon of Gun Control Jesse replied: >>Who said there wasn't an Angel as well? The demon used the Amendment to >>provoke masses of bloodshed, the angel uses it to keep government aggression >>in check. > >It hardly seems logical to me that any angel would support the existance >of guns. Interesting. So how do you view Words such as Swords, and War? - -- Julian jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 01:13:36 +0100 From: Rhodri James Subject: Re: IN> The Demon of Gun Control On 30 Apr, Julian Breen wrote: > Don't wish to sound like I'm raving, but I sincerely feel that there > have to be some areas in the game strongly seen *as* Black and White. > Otherwise, Heaven isn't really Heaven anymore. Admittance becomes > desirable over that to Hell simply because you don't get tortured when > you go there. I'm not going to start on this one. Really I'm not. I will merely observe that since both sides of this argument can (and do regularly) put forward examples where their position is not just appropriate but Right, abortion cannot possibly be a clear cut moral matter. You need to qualify it much harder than that in order get your Black and White distinction. Heaven is still heaven, no change there. Angels still care for others. It's just that sometimes they will care by doing one thing, and sometimes another. - -- Rhodri James *-* Wildebeeste herder to the masses If you don't know who I work for, you can't misattribute my words to them ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:39:28 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Stern Warnings (Re: The Demon of Gun Control) At 12:32 AM +0100 4/30/98, Julian Breen wrote: > Although IN is played in various shades, there are some things >that are seen by Heaven as simply being 'wrong', and abortion has to be >one of them. This is a Canon Area of Doubt And Uncertainty. And since it *is* so very personal a topic, please be *blessed* careful how you treat it in any discussions. (IOW, if this turns into a pro-choice/pro-life flamefest, anyone participating will get stern email, and anyone who goes out of bounds, over the top, etc., will get kicked off the list. Do I make myself clear?) Furthermore, this topic *has* already arisen in the backlogs (and did not turn into a flamefest, thanks to careful, thoughtful posters who did not try to impose their own views -- either way -- on others in inflamatory ways); checking those might be useful. - --Beth, Demon Princess of the list. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:23:59 -0700 From: "Steven Feldon (Exchange)" Subject: RE: IN> The Demon of Gun Control Abortion: "Its murder after all." It's not hardly that simple, and I'm sure that the firestorm that I expect we may see will make that clear. You have to be extremely careful when you assume that your opinions, your moral judgements, are facts. Semantically, you're wrong every time you do that, and morally, you're so high on the abstraction ladder than it's impossible to even talk to you without backing down and defining your terms. Whether or not I agree with you, which I'm not going to disclose, because it _doesn't_matter_. I really and fully see an Angel of Abortion. Even in a world where abortion _was_ explicitly murder, by the word of God. Because it's a moment when people hurt, and _someone_ in Heaven will want to take care of that. Even if abortion is wrong, even if the people are making a mistake when they do it, they're _in_pain_ when they have to make this choice, and it's not like the Heaven in _my_ game to abandon someone when they're vulnerable. . . This is a moment their life could truly be turned around into God's service. On the other hand, some believe that abortion, at least in the first trimester, is about as serious as having a mole removed ("You murdered that mole!" isn't often heard, even at dermatology clinics.) In that case, an Angel of Abortion can be a servitor of, oh, Novalis, pruning the human tree to make space for the good growth, or a servitor of Yves, helping those whose Destiny it is to not be born, to not change the path of those who are headed for later greatness. Or even a Servitor of Christopher, encouraging people to not have children they're going to treat badly. After all, maybe life isn't sacred below a certain quality. Who knows? God isn't telling, and I strongly suspect that SJG will (sensibly) decline to comment on Heaven's official stance on abortion. My thoughts only. If you must flame me without further In Nomine content, please direct it to me only. steve -----Original Message----- From: Julian Breen [mailto:jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 1998 4:33 PM To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: Re: IN> The Demon of Gun Control David Edelstein writes: >>>>It was a response to my "Demon of the Second Amendment". As requested. >Either that or the biggest coincidence I've encountered for a while.<<< > > >The former. My "rebuttal" wasn't so much because I disagreed with your >politics (though I do ), but because I disagreed with the way you framed >them in In Nomine terms. Very few things are so black and white, either in >the real world or in the In Nomine world, that you can state as a fact that >one position or another is the Heavenly or Infernal one. Thus, I found >labeling the 2nd Amendment as a diabolical contrivance to engineer >bloodshed to be simplistic. > >I could do the same with any topic -- even, say abortion. I can easily >imagine both demons and angels who are on the pro-life and the pro-choice >side. > >- -David > I cannot agree. Not *any* topic. For my tastes, that's liberalising Heaven a little too much. In the example of abortion, any angel advocating the pro-choice approach should be well on his way to Falling, IMHO. Although IN is played in various shades, there are some things that are seen by Heaven as simply being 'wrong', and abortion has to be one of them. Its murder after all. The ability of one human to knowingly and willingly extinguish the life of another, and, even more, a complete innocent at that (unless you believe in Original Sin). I can't think of any Superior either that would condone the pro-choice approach in his servitors. Any angel going around openly supporting it would (IMC) attract the immediate attention of Judgement, Armisael (The Angel of the Womb), Christopher (and his Malakim), and quite possibly; Eli. And Maybe more. And none of them would be in Good Moods. Don't wish to sound like I'm raving, but I sincerely feel that there have to be some areas in the game strongly seen *as* Black and White. Otherwise, Heaven isn't really Heaven anymore. Admittance becomes desirable over that to Hell simply because you don't get tortured when you go there. (Incidentally; Abortion, for those unaware. was originally attributed to Kasdeja, or Kasdaye, originally a Watcher, who quite possibly has now thrown his lot in with Hell (Saminga - in service to Kronos?). -- Julian jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #736 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.