From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue May 5 09:18:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA20972 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 09:18:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id JAA00684 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 09:07:51 -0500 Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 09:07:51 -0500 Message-Id: <199805051407.JAA00684@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #753 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, May 5 1998 Volume 01 : Number 753 In this digest: IN> IN: Resonance/Wheel of Time parallell IN> Off topic - horror writers, with desperate try of rescue Re: IN>Demon Prince Audition Re: IN> Shedim and dead hosts Re: IN> Upsetting Dominic Re: IN> New Discords Re: IN> Yves Re: IN> Identifying ensouled beings Re: IN> Song of Fruition Re: IN> Jordi's big move Re: IN> Abortion in IN Re: IN> Angels and Dicey Words Re: IN> Poker Re: IN> num.corp. question Re: IN> Celestials of Abortion (was The Demon of Gun Control) Re: IN>abortion (formerly:The Demon of Gun Control) Re: IN> Angels and Dicey Words IN> Off topic - pancakes Re: IN> Shedim and dead hosts Re: IN> Shedim and dead hosts Re: IN> Yves Re: IN> Double Agents IN> Creationer Faith Re: IN>Demon Prince Audition Re: IN>Demon Prince Audition IN> Baal and Michael Re: IN> Upsetting Dominic ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 11:30:39 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: IN> IN: Resonance/Wheel of Time parallell Just got this weird flash when reading the Seraph/Balseraph thread... The difference between Angelic and Demonic resonances is oddly similar to the difference between femal and male magic in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series - men seize the Source, fight to control it, thrust their magic upon the world, while women open themselves to it, surrender to the beauty of it. (Yeah, I know what kind of imagery this creates in your filthy minds. I'm subbing for Andre today.:) Same thing with demons/angels - - demons try to force their personal symphony on the True Symphony, while angels surrender to it, let it lead them. I'll go back to my databases now. :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! "I kick arse for the Lord!" - Father McGruder ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 11:40:42 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: IN> Off topic - horror writers, with desperate try of rescue On Tue, 5 May 1998, Ron Carnegie wrote: > It is not really that strange. The character Sherlock Holmes had no > faith in the unproven at all. Whenever something in the stories appears to > be mystical, it always ends up being explained by normal means, and yet > Conan Doyle also wrote some fantasies and was a supporter of the Cottington > Fairy girls. This is something that bothers me with Koontz' books - all the ones I've read have had a "natural" explanation, though it can be something as improbable as a huge, maneating, shape-shifting amoeba. It's kind of a let-down. (Well, except for "Watchers", which is really good.:) *trying to find a way to get back on topic* Has anyone tried integrating any other "mythoses", either in the Marches or in the "natural" world? Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! "I kick arse for the Lord!" - Father McGruder ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 11:44:50 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN>Demon Prince Audition On Tue, 5 May 1998, Titus 3 11 wrote: > Casca beat me to it, but Dennis Leary for Kobal...no competition. Hmmm... I don't think Dennis Leary is jaded enough - for a younger, more active Kobal he'd be great, but for the modern one I don't think he's really appropriate. Anders Gabrielsson, Angel of [SNIP]ping anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! "I kick arse for the Lord!" - Father McGruder ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 10:13:08 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and dead hosts On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 11:02:43PM -0400, Pee Kitty wrote: > > > > >(p57) > > >For either outcome, the check digit determines how many hours he must > > >wait before using /any/ supernatural aspect of his resonance again! > > > > So basically...if they get dissonance by a host dying, any normal Shedite > will end up kicked out of the Corporeal Plane and looking at his heart, in > trauma, after 10xCF minutes? > I noticed that, and decided that Shedim and Kyriotates were a special case, like the Vengeance bit for Cherubim. I tend to assume that where a specific case contradicts the general rules, that an exception has just been found. So the Shedite could use his resonance to possess, but not to corrupt, during that period. And the Cherub gets to use resonance to track the killer, but not to check up on any other charges. (I've heard the "it's not a resonance roll, it's a Perception roll" line and it didn't impress me. It's like saying that you're shooting someone rather than executing them.) Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. (bits of threads seem to be going missing for me) - -- "In the period of dictatorship, surrounded on all sides by enemies, we sometimes manifested unnecessary leniency and unnecessary softheartedness." N.V. Krylenko. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 11:08:20 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Upsetting Dominic On Fri, May 01, 1998 at 06:32:24PM -0500, Titus 3 11 wrote: > The sequence goes - > "did you succed?" > "Yes." > "How do I know you're not lieing?" > "I do not lie." > "I don't know that.(this is where true paranoia pays off - you probably > LEGITAMTLY don't. Resonance schmsemance, dissonacne shcmsoance - I don't > trust you)." Of course, if a Seraph says something 6 times in Celestial form, then either they're telling the truth, or you see them getting Discord/Falling. If, in the face of that evidence, you persist in disbelieving them, then you're obviously Discordantly Paranoid, as opposed to legitimately paranoid. And the question is why you want to annoy Servitors of Judgement. It won't achieve anything other than to get a report written up saying that you have an attitude problem and should be carefully monitored. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In the period of dictatorship, surrounded on all sides by enemies, we sometimes manifested unnecessary leniency and unnecessary softheartedness." N.V. Krylenko. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 12:50:36 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> New Discords On Fri, May 01, 1998 at 05:33:27PM -0400, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > Here's a pair of Discords -- one for Seraphim and one for Balseraphim, > though some non-*seraphim can still use them. They're modeled after some > semi-traditional folklore about angels and demons (which means I saw > them once someplace). > > I don't like the names, but I wasn't feeling creative enough to come up > with evocative ones. Better ones would be appreciated. > > Truthspeaker > > No seraph may lie, but a seraph with this discord cannot even evade > questions. There's something terribly like this in the APG, and it can affect Balseraphs too, for whom it's dissonant. It has levels, though, and can be resisted with a Will roll, so it doesn't usually bother me that much. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In the period of dictatorship, surrounded on all sides by enemies, we sometimes manifested unnecessary leniency and unnecessary softheartedness." N.V. Krylenko. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 12:00:23 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Yves On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 09:37:13PM -0400, Emily K. Dresner wrote: > No, not quite. Killing them would cut short the destinies of _others_. > Hitler was horrible, but through WWII many men attained great heights of > bravery and leadership, especially in battles like Stalingrad. Pol Pot is > burning in hell, but through him journalists have brought the real side of > that sort of oppression and horror to the eyes of the entire world. > Remember, no one lives in a vacuum, and those with the worst fates may > inspire many others to their greatest destiny _fighting against them_. > And there is the other side as well. Stalin was horrible, and under him others became horrors as well. A system was created where those in power could commit any abuses they wanted in the knowledge that not only would they not be criticised, but they would be promoted for it. A system where the chief of a convoy guard could say with no sense of irony "The sentence for nothing at all is ten years." and where people could grow up knowing that "every honest man goes to prison". And the spiritual degradation was not confined to the bluecaps, but also to those prisoners who aimed only to survive no matter what the price, and pushed others into the dirt and stole from them and informed from them in order to save their skins. I'm sorry I don't have The Gulag Archipelago with me because there's a quote in it from an unnamed camp veteran which I think epitomises the IN Hell. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In the period of dictatorship, surrounded on all sides by enemies, we sometimes manifested unnecessary leniency and unnecessary softheartedness." N.V. Krylenko. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 12:21:28 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Identifying ensouled beings On Fri, May 01, 1998 at 02:59:11PM -0400, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > > As for contact, an angel could take celestial form and then it can get > close enough to attune without being blocked by barriers of flesh. > I thought only Djinn could do that. That was my interpretation of the mention in the IPG under Sophisticated Uses of Resonance, because otherwise it doesn't give the Djinn anything other people don't have. > So the minimum character point cost to find out if someone has a human > soul are: > > 0 for Shedim (who can just try to do a possession). > 1 for Cherubim and Djinn (for 1 level in the Song of Dreams) > 2 for everyone else (for 1 level in the Songs of Attraction and Dreams) > > This is low enough that the answer should probably be common knowledge > among celestials. > And as I've repeatedly pointed out, it's (next to) impossible to prove a negative. I never disputed that if the foetus has a soul, its existence could be determined. In any event, trying to sing Songs when you have level 1 in them is usually an object of futility, and I can count the number of my characters who have the Corporeal Song of Dreams and the Celestial Song of Attraction on one finger. And he simply wouldn't _care_ whether a foetus had a soul because it's far more fun to break the minds of those with more developed intelligence, and it's unlikely that the knock-on effects of upsetting the foetus are important enough to justify the time and Essence expenditure involved. > Though this raises an interesting question...can Shedim possess the > undead in canon? > They're humans, ne? Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In the period of dictatorship, surrounded on all sides by enemies, we sometimes manifested unnecessary leniency and unnecessary softheartedness." N.V. Krylenko. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 12:09:06 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Song of Fruition On Sat, May 02, 1998 at 01:08:22PM -0500, David C. Shadle wrote: > > > If two recipients from either side mate on earth, what would their > offspring > > be like? > > It would be an angel of the same type as the parent that contributed the > most amount of forces, or in the case of a Lilim, the Angelic equivelent of > the other parent. (I can't believe it happened twice.) The Song of Fruition is not the same as Celestial reproduction. The Song of Fruition results in a human with the potential to develop six Forces growing in the mother's womb in the normal manner, the difference being that a Celestial is one of the parents. It's conceivable that two Celestials who know the Song of Fruition could do it, in which case I'd still expect the child to be a human, because, after all, they're still having sex with their Vessels. Presumably, the child inherits certain personality traits from the parent Celestials, so the child of a Seraph and a Habbalite is probably someone you'd want to avoid. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In the period of dictatorship, surrounded on all sides by enemies, we sometimes manifested unnecessary leniency and unnecessary softheartedness." N.V. Krylenko. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 11:28:37 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Jordi's big move On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 01:53:41AM -0400, Jesse wrote: > > Where the players come in: > > It falls on the player angels to assist, largely unknowingly, Jordi in his > endeavors. Between jobs the angels are introduced to a renegade djinn > while the Malakim are away. The demon has a proposition to make, he > accidentally attuned himself to the wrong person and has had a hard time > clearing himself of the attunement. The Djinn, named Bogart, needs the > angels to kill the person for him. In exchange the demon will give the > angels a small, although important relic. > Dissonant. A Djinn can't ask someone else to get rid of an object of their attunement, though they can make hints, like "I'm really sick of being attuned to X, and if you do me a favour, I'll give you this relic." "What sort of favour?" "I can't say." > > Once the angels have agreed to help the Djinn (did I mention this was an > important relic?) And of course maybe the angels say no and try to kill the Djinn and take the relic off his corpse, or steal the relic from the Djinn. It's what Mithredath would do. (ObOffTopic: When a Seraph of the Wind says "That sounds reasonable.", you know they haven't agreed to do whatever it is you've asked them.) Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In the period of dictatorship, surrounded on all sides by enemies, we sometimes manifested unnecessary leniency and unnecessary softheartedness." N.V. Krylenko. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 11:40:05 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Abortion in IN On Sat, May 02, 1998 at 11:49:17AM -0400, Andrew Frades wrote: > All Angels are pro-choice regarless of when the soul enters the body of the > fetus. Free Will is the major tenent of Angelic behavior. Acceptance of your > actions is the second. > The problem with that argument is that the direct object of abortion has no choice in the matter at all. Abortion can be regarded as the ultimate deprivation of Freedom. The other problem with this argument is that many of us are just taking their own personal stances of abortion and mapping them onto the IN universe. I include myself in this category. As to angelic interference, I'm personally of the opinion that much of it is proactive, though probably a greater proportion of it is reactive than infernal interference. I can certainly imagine Janus interfering on a large scale in order to promote change, and one of my pet theories is that he did so during the various European wars that followed the Reformation, intervening against the Habsburgs, and especially the Spanish Habsburgs. > Very few Angels have any real issues with the actual abortion in my opinion, > the problem comes with the repercussions, including the sometime depression or > the possible sterilization of the recipient. > And also the dead baby. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In the period of dictatorship, surrounded on all sides by enemies, we sometimes manifested unnecessary leniency and unnecessary softheartedness." N.V. Krylenko. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 11:15:31 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Dicey Words On Fri, May 01, 1998 at 06:28:15PM -0400, MarkDEddy wrote: > In a message dated 5/1/98 7:50:40 AM, stephenj@linc.ox.ac.uk writes: > (Talking about Michael): > >He's a tactical genius, but that isn't his main strength. He is the patron > >of soldiers, not generals. (Dunno if that's Catholic canon, but it would > >sure help my argument if it was.) > > Soldiers specifically, yes. Also Policemen and the Irish. Is this some sort of comment on Irish belligerence? And if it isn't, it's rather bizarre, because I have been under the impression that St Patrick was the patron saint of Ireland, for his labours in subjecting the Celtic Church to the supremacy of Rome. Anyone who can say, > "Don't call me sir, I work for a living," is under Michael. > So he's the patron Archangel of everyone, is he? Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In the period of dictatorship, surrounded on all sides by enemies, we sometimes manifested unnecessary leniency and unnecessary softheartedness." N.V. Krylenko. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 18:56:08 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Poker On Fri, May 01, 1998 at 11:44:20AM -0400, Jesse wrote: > >POKER. > > Interesting, Thank you. it is writen like a screeplay, any reason for that? > Because the original one (Lust Fiction, which is on the INC) was, or, less specifically, because it's intended to be in the style of Tarantino. Future updates will appear in a strange order known only to myself, to make it even more like Tarantino stuff. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In the period of dictatorship, surrounded on all sides by enemies, we sometimes manifested unnecessary leniency and unnecessary softheartedness." N.V. Krylenko. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 19:29:52 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> num.corp. question On Fri, May 01, 1998 at 02:18:01PM +0200, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > Many of the NC Songs are pretty useless - not only compared to Acid. If > you take any two of them, chances are one of them will be "better". I've Two of them give extra attacks, and if you have good social skills, Fangs is nice for instant kills. The benefits of Wings are obvious. Which leaves the question of what Horns are for, other than to fake Unicorn sightings. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In the period of dictatorship, surrounded on all sides by enemies, we sometimes manifested unnecessary leniency and unnecessary softheartedness." N.V. Krylenko. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 19:35:44 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Celestials of Abortion (was The Demon of Gun Control) On Fri, May 01, 1998 at 02:06:31PM +0200, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: and I think most > > Habbalah find the idea of pregnancy revolting. > > Yes, all that caring for someone else more than for yourself... Habbalah > must be really into breaking up families. :) > Habbalah can care for other people, unless they serve Lust of course, but generally it tends to be someone worthy of respect, which in most Habbalite opinions will not include babies. Also, pregnancy makes women look more unattractive to most minds, and Habbalah don't like that either. So people are making the incomprehensible decision to inflict misery and suffering on themselves for someone who is undeserving and almost certainly will never thank them for it. It's stupidity, and stupidity needs to be punished. (Note the deliberate use of the word most.) Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In the period of dictatorship, surrounded on all sides by enemies, we sometimes manifested unnecessary leniency and unnecessary softheartedness." N.V. Krylenko. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 19:27:43 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN>abortion (formerly:The Demon of Gun Control) On Fri, May 01, 1998 at 06:07:32PM +0100, Steve Jessop wrote: > > > I tend to hit Seraphim who resonate 'That's the W(r)ong Thing to Do. > > > God wouldn't like it.' Dominic included. > > > > > How could they possibly do that, unless it's the Balseraph resonance > > you're speaking of? > > I meant grab a prophet, get him to give you the whole spiel, and dump a > load of essence into your Seraph resonance roll. We've had this discussion > on the list before, and the general consensus was that the 'Ping! You get > the Truth!' result for CD six does you no good whatsoever in such a > situation. I was perfectly aware of that when I made the post. I was nitpicking, and IIRC it wasn't all of what I posted either. What you should have said was "I tend to hit Seraphim who _try to_ resonate...etc.". The Balseraph resonance, on the other hand, is good for telling you what's the right or wrong thing to do. I add that the Seraph is question shall be hit over the head > with a copy of the nearest IN supplement for being so smug. > Assuming they've pumped Essence into their roll, the loss of Essence for no gain and the fact that they made no gain for their trouble should be enough to cure smugness. Of course, I certainly won't stop you expressing your anger. It's your right to be angry at them, after all. > Repeat offenders and Superiors, who should know better, are hit with the > hardback rules. But how do you track down the Superior? Ah, a new plot seed. Which segues nicely back into our regular program of > humorous IN... > I still want to see the writeup of the Demon of Big F***ing Guns. Given the censorship, I can only assume it's a Servitor of the Media. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In the period of dictatorship, surrounded on all sides by enemies, we sometimes manifested unnecessary leniency and unnecessary softheartedness." N.V. Krylenko. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 19:14:42 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Dicey Words On Fri, May 01, 1998 at 11:46:37AM -0500, Titus 3 11 wrote: > Steve - > Well - written and well - thought. I thought of it as Laurence being any > of the "Great Generals" you see on A and E; What the hell is A and E? And I'd tend to think of Laurence as being more like people like Haig and Von Rundstedt, competent enough, but too fixed in method to achieve as much as possible. Micheal as being the main > character of All Quiet on the Western Front ( or the French guy he killed > in a Trench). <> And I would think that he Micheal (if he > were the main character from AQWF) would see Laurence as a competent but > too-green commander, War, of course, doesn't have just one meaning. The "flower battles" of the Aztecs, carried out solely in order to gain captives for sacrifice, were also War. and Yves as <> Hitler. If you > "get" the limited comparison I'm making I don't actually. But if I were to compare any of the Archangels to Hitler, in the somewhat narrow field of military tactics, I'd go for Janus. Consider the fact that he promoted the ideas of blitzkrieg and parachute warfare, and by supporting the Manstein plan in defiance of conventional strategy, succeeded in beating a qualitatively and quantitatively superior enemy which had the advantage of defence. Which brings me to the more general point that if I wanted to have any Superior in charge of my country's armies, it'd be Janus. Almost all of those who are currently regarded as great generals won their greatest victories through unconventional tactics, speed, and surprise. (I find Janus to be one of the more scary Archangels, partly because I envisage him as being utterly ruthless and prepared to promote change by any means necessary.) - - I know (Hope?) Yves doesn't go > about attempting to genocide Hope is definitely the word you're looking for. >(verbing weirds the language). An impressive display of that point. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In the period of dictatorship, surrounded on all sides by enemies, we sometimes manifested unnecessary leniency and unnecessary softheartedness." N.V. Krylenko. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 12:37:46 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: IN> Off topic - pancakes On Mon, 4 May 1998, MarkDEddy wrote: > In a message dated 5/4/98 3:16:21 AM, anders@strindberg.ling.uu.se writes: > >On Sat, 2 May 1998, MarkDEddy wrote: > > > >> Loganberries are the active ingredient of Swedish Pancakes. > >> (Think blackberries or raspberries, only slightly different...) > > > >Hm. This must be some kind of Swedish Pancakes that don't come from > >Sweden, or at least aren't very popular here. :) > > Swedish Pancakes a la U.S.A.: > Crepes, Loganberry compote, whipped cream. Add syrup as desired. (This may > simply be the Washington State version...) OK. I don't think we have loganberries here, and syrup isn't very popular on pancakes, but otherwise it sounds great. :) Anders Gabrielsson, Angel of [SNIP]ping anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! "I kick arse for the Lord!" - Father McGruder ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 04:08:31 -0700 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and dead hosts More evilness on this topic. I must confess to help from a certain Elohite of Judgement on this particular bit... Turning off Resonance with Dissonance: It's not just for dead Shedim anymore! Remember, dissonance can come from Superior restrictions... Cruel Shedite trick: Find a Kyriotate with all their forces in one place. Say possessing just a human or just a rat for some reason. Hurt the host. Then STEAL it. Ejected Kyriotate. DISSONANT Kyriotate for leaving the host hurt..and possessed by a Shedite. That's definitely worse than it started. And, dissonant, it can't repossess or find a new host... When all supernatural effects of the resonance leave, is a Shedite or Kyriotate ejected from their current host(s)? I certainly hope not...otherwise, except for the 6 Celestial Forces Celestial with a 1 check digit, any gaining of dissonance sends them back to the Celestial plane somewhere. Even the sometimes difficult to deal with Superior restrictions. So that probably doesn't work. But if it DID? Cruel anti-Kyriotate trick. Find one possessing several hosts. Hurt them all. Kill one. One note of dissonance...and ejection from the other eight hosts. That's another eight points of dissonance...instant Shedite that can't resonate and has no heart. Better find a demon to follow to Hell real quick or you'll start taking soul hits! I realize my tone is these posts makes me sound pretty...annoying. Honest, though, I don't do this to the people running games locally. Nor am I trying to make fun of the rules. I just think that the statements about Kyriotates/Shedim and Dissonance do not work together as written. They don't say "If the Shedite has 6 Celestial Forces AND rolls a 1 check digit, they have 1 nanosecond in which to try one possession roll."...which is the truth of it. I guess I do sound like I'm down on the game. Completely false, I assure you. Having grown up with AD&D, the In Nomine rules seem really consistant and balanced even where typos might exist. *smile* Is the Wrod of Copy Editing open? Sean ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 12:36:32 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and dead hosts On Tue, May 05, 1998 at 04:08:31AM -0700, Sean McCarthy wrote: > More evilness on this topic. I must confess to help from a certain > Elohite of Judgement on this particular bit... > > Turning off Resonance with Dissonance: > > It's not just for dead Shedim anymore! > > Remember, dissonance can come from Superior restrictions... > My favourite one is for Habbalah of the Game. Pick out another Habbalite. Impose Emptiness on them with your resonance (Celestial Charm is useful here). Arrest/execute them for dissonance. (Emptiness is a dissonant state for Habbalah.) Use Dissonance Binding, if possible. And there you have it: a case cooked up from nothing. All you have to do then is to invent a plausible story and get the other Habbalite to sign it (and do you really think they'll resist long while they're in the clutches of the Game?). Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In the period of dictatorship, surrounded on all sides by enemies, we sometimes manifested unnecessary leniency and unnecessary softheartedness." N.V. Krylenko. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 08:19:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Yves > And there is the other side as well. Stalin was horrible, and under him > others became horrors as well. A system was created where those in power > could commit any abuses they wanted in the knowledge that not only would > they not be criticised, but they would be promoted for it. A system where > the chief of a convoy guard could say with no sense of irony "The sentence > for nothing at all is ten years." and where people could grow up knowing > that "every honest man goes to prison". And the spiritual degradation was > not confined to the bluecaps, but also to those prisoners who aimed only > to survive no matter what the price, and pushed others into the dirt and > stole from them and informed from them in order to save their skins. I'm > sorry I don't have The Gulag Archipelago with me because there's a quote > in it from an unnamed camp veteran which I think epitomises the IN Hell. There is no doubt that it can go both ways, and I never said it didn't. Fate and Destiny walk a very skinny line, and it comes down to that one mechanic in Omaha that swings the balance one way or another. At the same time, I agree that cold war Russia is a great model for Hades in Hell. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 06:40:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> Double Agents - ---Pee Kitty wrote: > > On Fri, 1 May 1998, Graveyard Greg wrote: > > > > Of course, Gabriel always seemed to embody intuition and random > > insight; > > > she might not have been able to tell that about the essence...she > > might > > > have just KNOWN it. She's weird like that...brilliant and crazy. > > > > Just like you, Rev. Kitty? ;) > > Yeah, but I'm no archangel. :) > Nah, yer an archkitty! Graveyard Greg ("You see, I've got this trumpet that was given to me by some lady named Gabriel...wonder how it sounds..Let's find out...") _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 09:50:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: IN> Creationer Faith There was a vague IN based argument last night, in good nature, and it got me thinking about the servitors of Creation and the nature of their Faith. [I've been thinking about this for some time, not just last night.] The question comes in as thus: are the servitors of Creation serving the physical and mental act of Creating, or are they serving the Whole of Creation? The former is a less interesting question, as angels just simply encourage humans to make things, granted they are works of art, but still are things. The nature of their Faith is simple and straight forward, there is God, and we serve Him. Standard angelic belief. This seems to be what was intended for a Creationer, since this is what the resonances emphasize. The latter, to serve all of Creation, is a little more interesting. Instead of just saying, "We're going to create and this is good" , one is serving all of Creation and everything in it. This means putting aside one's personal morality to accept the universe as it is. The question came up, "Which is better, the creation of a flower or the creation of a disease?" After some thought, the answer was simply "Yes", or better put "Neither". What if the disease kills a baby? Well, was the disease created naturally? If so, then it was all part of Creation, and this includes Destruction, up to and including the death of a baby. It struck me as a very strange outlook for an Angel, one of which might be seen as "crazy" or "schizophrenic" or "unacceptable" by a large part of Heaven. Which makes the 'pursued by the Inquisition' portion of the background of the game make sense. They have personal sets of morals, and a knowledge of Good and Evil. It is simply, they have trouble pointing to certain acts which are considered 'evil' in some circles and call it wrong. What is morality anyway, but an In Symphony creation by Mankind to define the boundaries of society? What is moral in one place is not necessarily in another, and considered 'taboo' or 'evil'. [Polygamy is a good example.] In a way, a Creationer following this outlook would be an angel who is following the Superior who is closest to Humanity, and at the very same time, the farthest removed from it. On the one hand, a new piece of music, the opening of a rose, a rainbow after a hard rain, these are all parts of creation. At the same time, so is your good human friend dying of cancer of the liver, a baby with a heart condition, the hunting and killing of a gazelle by lions on the savanaah. It's all part of creation, it has all been within the Symphony, and within the universe, and creation encompasses destruction. All things which are born, die. It also occured to me that there is nothing a Creationer despises more then a servant of Vapula. It is one thing for the entire machinery of Creation to go through its cycle of life, death, and rebirth. It's entirely different for a Vapulan to introduce a psychosis-inducing manufactured drug into the ground water of a major metropolitan area. But Creationers would work very well with Flowers, as nature also understands that what is born must die, even if they have a more mild, and less completely anarchistic outlook. They would also work well with Windies (the Winds of Change), Animals (the understanding of Everything Else in Creation) and Destiny (all that is must be brought to its greatest height). So anyway, I yanked out my copy of the Tao Te Ching, and read through it the other night. Taoism seems to fit very well with the Creationer mindset - which is also completely alien from the Faith of say, the Laurentines or the Dominicans. Unfortunately, Laurentines and Dominicans have a bad habit of carrying large pointy objects and shoving them into the bodies of things which are unacceptable to the Heavenly Order, which tend to be Creationers. Ah, next thing you know, I'll be whipping out the I Ching, and looking at the lines of the hexagram to discern the Moment. [I can, in fact, see my PCs and NPCs do this.] It's messing with my head. The completely anarchistic mindset is a difficult one to wrap a consciousness around. "Religion is a deep subject. Think of all the incompatible faiths and sects. How can you choose one to pour your soul into, without first understanding them all? How can you understand even one thoroughly, without first pouring your soul into it? I think you have to be a deep person to understand religion. About six feet deep." - the Daily Whale - - Em Current Quote: "I redeemed, not gave up my keen sense of fashion." - Daimon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 08:51:06 -0500 (CDT) From: Titus 3 11 Subject: Re: IN>Demon Prince Audition anyone who thinks that ivanova, after four years of running Babylon 5 (the capitan was always an accesory), could not, while sleeping, run "the War," deserves a smiting. Her skills as a Demon Prince would be exceptional... Your smiting has been noted. Enosh On Tue, 5 May 1998, Casca wrote: > On Tue, 5 May 1998, Titus 3 11 wrote: > > > Baal - Claudia Christen ( i think (?)) - the person who played Ivonova on > > B5 > > What?! You dare profane the name of Ivanova by comparing her to a Demon > Prince? I smite thee, blasphemer!! *smite smite smite* > > -- Casca, Seraph of Archives, working for Gabriel these days > (bertishg@db.erau.edu) > > "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of > His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: > with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their > feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the > doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." > -- Isaiah 6:2,4 > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 08:53:08 -0500 (CDT) From: Titus 3 11 Subject: Re: IN>Demon Prince Audition Not jaded enough????? Have you heard Lock and Load? Listen to track 20 on the cd...it will convince you even if no cure for cancer doesn't. Enosh On Tue, 5 May 1998, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > On Tue, 5 May 1998, Titus 3 11 wrote: > > > Casca beat me to it, but Dennis Leary for Kobal...no competition. > > Hmmm... I don't think Dennis Leary is jaded enough - for a younger, more > active Kobal he'd be great, but for the modern one I don't think he's > really appropriate. > > Anders Gabrielsson, Angel of [SNIP]ping > anders@stp.ling.uu.se > The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! > "I kick arse for the Lord!" - Father McGruder > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 09:52:30 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: IN> Baal and Michael In the APG, Baal is described as being one of the first 7 Archangels and as having worked closely with Michael. The sentence says: "Michael and Baal stirred everything up". What was Baal's Word as an Archangel? Obviously, he wasn't the Archangel of the War at the time, so what did he resonate? As a side note, I think Michael's true Word must be Conflict-the conflict that promotes change, growth, and improvement. It's the only reason I can think of that he would be one of the Archangels who "stirred everything up". When the War in Heaven began, God ordered him to emphasize the War aspect of the Word of Conflict. Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 08:54:47 -0500 (CDT) From: Titus 3 11 Subject: Re: IN> Upsetting Dominic On Mon, 4 May 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > On Fri, May 01, 1998 at 06:32:24PM -0500, Titus 3 11 wrote: > > The sequence goes - > > "did you succed?" > > "Yes." > > "How do I know you're not lieing?" > > "I do not lie." > > "I don't know that.(this is where true paranoia pays off - you probably > > LEGITAMTLY don't. Resonance schmsemance, dissonacne shcmsoance - I don't > > trust you)." > > Of course, if a Seraph says something 6 times in Celestial form, then > either they're telling the truth, or you see them getting Discord/Falling. > If, in the face of that evidence, you persist in disbelieving them, then > you're obviously Discordantly Paranoid, as opposed to legitimately > paranoid. > > And the question is why you want to annoy Servitors of Judgement. It won't > achieve anything other than to get a report written up saying that you > have an attitude problem and should be carefully monitored. Hey man, it works for Eli Enosh > > Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. > -- > "In the period of dictatorship, surrounded on all sides by enemies, we > sometimes manifested unnecessary leniency and unnecessary softheartedness." > N.V. Krylenko. > ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #753 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.