From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri May 8 13:23:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA10794 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 13:23:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id NAA19844 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 13:23:31 -0500 Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 13:23:31 -0500 Message-Id: <199805081823.NAA19844@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #766 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, May 8 1998 Volume 01 : Number 766 In this digest: Re: IN> Baal and Michael Re: IN> Michael's Dissonance Conditions (Re: Angels and Dicey Words) IN> Stat limits IN> Angels of Purity Re: IN> More Questions. IN> Discord IN> Children of the Grigori Re: IN> Stat limits Re: IN> Angels of Purity Re: IN> In Nomine character maximums IN> Changing Nature of Words Re: IN> Stat limits IN> Re: IN- Children of the Grigori Re: IN> Changing Nature of Words Re: IN> Baal and Michael IN> Nitpicking (was Re: IN- Angels of Purity) Re: IN> Stat limits IN> Re: IN- In Nomine character maximums Re: IN> Ofanim and Servitor of Wind Questions Re: IN> Stat limits IN> Ceilings and Superiors IN> Re: IN- Changing Nature of Words Re: IN> In Nomine character maximums Re: IN> Magic Re: IN> Re: IN- Children of the Grigori Re: IN> djinn and healing Re: SV: IN> In Nomine character maximums ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 08 May 98 11:59 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Baal and Michael >> His Word *might* have changed. Or it may have meant "war against >> chaos/entropy" -- Words *can* change meaning over time, as the Symphony >> evolves. > >Well, I don't know. The implication in the APG is that he was responsible >for maintaining chaos, not eliminating it. That's why I think he Was (and >still is) Conflict, and he just emphasizes War (an aspect of Conflict) >until the War is over. Michael may have represented "constructive chaos", then -- using chaos to produce order (since that was all associated with constucting the physical universe). Further thinking along those lines will probably get more metaphysical than is healthy for a simple engineer... so I'll stop here. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 17:10:37 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Michael's Dissonance Conditions (Re: Angels and Dicey Words) On Fri, May 08, 1998 at 10:31:28AM -0400, MarkDEddy wrote: > Except for one thing. He *already* stepped down. Voluntarily. He gave Laurence > command of the Host mainly because he's a hot warror and The War is a cold > war. > The strong impression I got was that he did it in order to spite Dominic. And Laurence didn't succeed him as commander of the Host, Uriel did. It was only when Uriel was recalled to the upper Heavens that his lieutenant, Laurence, was given command. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "If you let it get too far it would be the end of everything. You would have bicycles wanting votes and they would get seats on the County Council and make the roads far worse than they are for their own ulterior motivation." The Third Policeman, by Flann O'Brien. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 May 98 12:12 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: IN> Stat limits >> Among other things, this imposes a hard limit on experience >> expenditures. If somebody is running a weekly campaign, even a minimal 1 >> pt-per-session award makes possible an 18-Force PC within less than 2 >> years. (Of course, IN hasn't been *out* for quite 2 years yet, has it?) > >My players are going to run into this sooner or later. We'll hit 1 year >in July, running biweekly, and between contributions and sessions, they're >picking up Forces steadily. Forces *are* useful things, I'd expect that. While you can control rewards a bit more in IN than in, say, GURPS, it's still troubling, and I've been worried about this for a while. I've been pushing a bit to get some canon on this soon. A short-term fix is to get them into more celestial combat.... >What we are hoping for is expanded rules or 2nd edition rules which talks >about what happens when you pass the 18 Force limit. I would guess probably not 2nd ed., more likely in an expansion book with other expanded rules (we need more stuff on high-power characters for other reasons -- sometime soon a PC will get Word-bound, and there's not really much on this yet in the rules). There are some good candidate proposals kicking around where these rules might fit in. > I assume something >DOES happen, because upper bounds, frankly, suck. If no rules are >forthcoming, I'll make something up, and use House Rules. My current notion on this is the "Word Forces" concept. With this, Word-bound (including Superiors) max-out at 6/6/6 and 18 characteristics, but have additional Forces that provide other benefits (like lots of Essence to play with). This avoids some game-mechanics problems related to the d666 and higher stats, and will make Word-bound noisier and harder to kill. I haven't worked this through in detail, and there are still some problems with it, but I'm going to propose something along these lines for canon. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 11:31:15 -0500 (CDT) From: rogue@ez-net.com Subject: IN> Angels of Purity I think I may have stumbled upon a little discrepancy.... In The Marches, page 5, Kronos is speaking to Baal and says "If the Word of Purity had truly been abandoned, at least *one* of them should have Fallen by now. But *no* Angel of Purity ever has." In the Infernal Player's Guide, page 60, under 'Some Famous Impudites': "Vaphoron, a former Mercurian of Purity who became Outcast when he befriended etheral spirits, then Fell when Uriel was recalled, and is thus one one of a handful of former Servitors of Uriel in Hell." So, either Kronos is unaware of the existence of a 'handful' of Fallen Purity Angels (which is highly unlikely- this Kronos, not Saminga!), or we have a slight problem. By the by, feel free to put my name on the 'Stop the Nitpicking Crusade' petition. - -Brent P.S. Wait a sec... isn't this whole post kind of one big nitpick? D'oh... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 May 98 12:38 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> More Questions. >How do you pronounce Yves? I've been generally using the quasi-French pronunciation "eve". As far as I know, there are no canon pronunciations for any of the names used. (I pronounce "Jean" the English way, but it could also be pronounced using the French pronunciation, I guess. And I'm clueless about pronouncing Hebrew....) [disturbance questions cut] My general rule for disturbance is that any physical interaction, or any deliberate action by the celestial (including planting bombs, or using Songs, attunements, or resonances), will cause disturbance if it causes direct or immediate physical damage. Merely existing in the corporeal realm probably also causes disturbance, but at such a low level that it's imperceptible without some sort of way of boosting Perception. You may want to read through the FAQ (at http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/faq/) -- there's some disturbance stuff there. Also look through the old archives of this list at the FTP site - -- John Karakesh (IN netrep) answered a lot of similar questions shortly after IN came out. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 12:43:52 -0400 From: Stacy Stroud Subject: IN> Discord >The players I GM tend to take a bunch of discords to start out with. Due >to the number of discords available and the fact that they all give you >three CP per level taken means that many discords are very "cheap" >gamewise. That is, they give you a lot of points without really hindering >you. If, for instance, you have a very high or very low Perception, you >can (due to the d666 bell curve) take several levels of Celestial >Blindness without it affecting your chance of perceiving someone in >celestial form. All in all, the rules for starting discords need very >heavy GM supervision (or self-moderation on the part of the player), >otherwise, they rapidly turn into easy freebie points. > >/Jens I'm sure the Powers that Be will jump on this as well, but.... Discords are not GURPS disadvantages. They're not something you regularly take to get more points. Angels will be shunned socially and questioned by their Superior for having even a little Discord (because Discord implies dissonant behavior). Demons can get away with more, but may still call their competence into question, since demons frequently gain dissonance by failing resonance rolls. Remember that the Discord your players take had to COME from somewhere -- usually, as noted above, from failure or dissonant behavior. It's not something that celestials just "have," unless they're Calabim. Make sure your players explain in their character backgrounds where that Discord came from. It can't be a pleasant story. And even though Discords are not GURPS disads, you can still use the well-known GURPS maxim to deal with meaningless levels of Celestial Blindness and the like: if it doesn't cause a problem, it's not worth any points. The point bonus for such things is compensation for the player's willingness to give the character a weakness. If the Discord has no real effect on the character, then don't give any points for it. Stacy Stroud sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 11:50:02 -0500 From: "Scott Weber" Subject: IN> Children of the Grigori Okay, I finally bought the game yesterday, read through it, and then came to the website and ultimately here... how ironic that the one part of the game that I find the most interesting is the one part I can't seem to get any important information on, as far as mechanics goes, etc. Children of the Grigori. How do I set up a character who is a child of the Grigori, mechanics-wise? Is he set up like a mundane, or a celestial, or is he something in-between that has not yet been discussed? It seems to me that this type of character would be the most interesting to play... is there any source I can look up, or could somebody post the rules, if there are any? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 12:54:34 -0400 From: Robb Kidd Subject: Re: IN> Stat limits Walter Milliken wrote: > >What we are hoping for is expanded rules or 2nd edition rules which talks > >about what happens when you pass the 18 Force limit. > > I would guess probably not 2nd ed., more likely in an expansion book > with other expanded rules ... Expansion books have been nicer to me than revamp new editions. When games publishers set out to compile expansion rules, they (of course) take into account the existing game mechanics that players have been using and probably like. Expensions tend to offer a selection of rules that are more flexible and easier to "mix & match" which existing core and house rules. New editions tend to give me growing pains and cramps adjusting to new logic. "What do you mean I'm 'supposed to add my armor to my dodge roll'? How does armor make me move quicker? [listens to polite reason] I don't care if it's fewer dice to roll, it doesn't make sense!" > My current notion on this is the "Word Forces" concept. [...] [They would] > have additional Forces that provide other benefits (like lots of Essence to > play with). Oo. If you bound the Word Forces to the celestial's progress in promoting his Word, the player could have a quantifiable way to know in what directions the GM is thinking. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 18:03:24 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Angels of Purity On Fri, May 08, 1998 at 11:31:15AM -0500, rogue@ez-net.com wrote: > In The Marches, page 5, Kronos is speaking to Baal and says "If the Word of > Purity had truly been abandoned, at least *one* of them should have Fallen > by now. But *no* Angel of Purity ever has." > > In the Infernal Player's Guide, page 60, under 'Some Famous Impudites': > "Vaphoron, a former Mercurian of Purity who became Outcast when he > befriended etheral spirits, then Fell when Uriel was recalled, and is thus > one one of a handful of former Servitors of Uriel in Hell." > One way to explain this is that by attuning to a Word other than Purity, they lose their connection to Purity. It makes metaphysical sense, and means you don't have to make up Purity attunements for every Servitor of the Sword older than a certain age. (Mr Gant has made up Purity attunements, in case you're interested.) > By the by, feel free to put my name on the 'Stop the Nitpicking Crusade' > petition. > On reflection, I apologise for the posts about Seraphim resonating the moral truth. But not the others, until someone can demonstrate to my satisfaction that I hurt a serious thread by useless nitpicking. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "If you let it get too far it would be the end of everything. You would have bicycles wanting votes and they would get seats on the County Council and make the roads far worse than they are for their own ulterior motivation." The Third Policeman, by Flann O'Brien. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 May 98 13:03 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine character maximums >We don't have a bell curve, we have a linear scale with a cap, and a >limited amount of places to really encourage growth. I mean, sure, you >can dump it into skills, but WHY? when you can raise a stat and all your >skills go up. Same with Songs. We need more Songs, I think -- at least my experience with GURPS mages is that they're always wanting new spells (there are something like 800 now), so if spell-learning is relatively easy in the game world, the mage characters will spend lots of their points on spells. I think something similar would happen with IN character and Songs. Songs have a high "coolness factor", but often limited applicability, so players like them and they still don't tend to kill the game. Similar things can be done with attunements, but there are a limited number of those for a given PC to aspire to, and so they are less likely to see something that they want. One fix to the problem is not to allow characters to raise characteristics (and Forces) directly with experience points -- require the Superior to grant that, giving the GM more control. The IN rewards system is already fairly loose, favoring Superior-granted awards; it's not much of a leap to limit experience points to improving existing skills, Songs and Roles (plus maybe acquiring Servants and learning new skills the mundane way). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 18:29:09 +0100 (British Summer Time) From: James Palmer Subject: IN> Changing Nature of Words Something's been disturbing me about the recent discussion of the changing nature of Words - e.g the Demon of Spam expanding to cover junk e-mail. Doesn't this imply that the Word is in English? It seems a little odd that the very essence of a celestial can be altered by petty mortal language change. I would have thought that the Word would be given in the Angelic (or Demonic) tongue, and therefore would somehow encapsulate the very essence of the Word being given. The Demon of Spam would actually be the Demon of and would stay that way however mortals used the word "spam." Or is he "the Demon of "? And in that case, what about celestials with more powerful words that are given different names in different languages? What happens when the meaning changes in one language, but not another? And as a sideline; the Demon of Conversation has gone from serving Malphas to serving Andre, whereas the Demon of Intercourse has done the exact opposite ... James. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I don't mean to sound cold or cruel or vicious, but I am, so that's the way it comes out. Professional help is being sought." - Bill Hicks ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 13:18:58 -0400 (EDT) From: "York H. Dobyns" Subject: Re: IN> Stat limits Walter Milliken writes: [...] >A short-term fix is to get them into more celestial combat.... Ouch, ouch, ouch...one problem is that there is no guarantee that celestial combat will remove Forces from the problem area. I once wrote up a starting character, designed as a Davidic melee bruiser, with 6 Corporeal forces (1 Ethereal, 2 Celestial) -- I can just see a Celestial combat with this chump, with a couple of wrong die rolls, dumping a 6-Cor 0-Eth 0-Cel Remnant on the game world. *Just* what every game needs, an inhumanly strong and utterly tireless mindless idiot whose only remaining skill is Fighting. (Then again, I think I've seen Champions characters like that.) >I would guess probably not 2nd ed., more likely in an expansion book >with other expanded rules (we need more stuff on high-power characters >for other reasons -- sometime soon a PC will get Word-bound, and there's >not really much on this yet in the rules). There are some good >candidate proposals kicking around where these rules might fit in. I thought the examples of Word-bound celestials made it pretty obvious: the player and GM, after choosing a Word, need to get together and design a special Attunement or two, that the Word-bound has intrinsically and can grant to others, and a small number of appropriate Rites, ditto. Granted, throwing everything up to "GM and Player mutually restrained inventiveness" isn't exactly a "rule", but it seems reasonable for a game as mechanics-light as IN. Incidentally, regarding Rites: I saw something go by recently to the effect that unstated but more or less canon view of Rites was that they were a way of getting a small bit of your Superior's attention so that your boss could give you some Essence. From reading the various discussions of Essence supplies and generation, particularly in _The Marches_ and _Heaven and Hell_, I had gotten rather the impression that it was the reverse: a Rite is a way of furthering the Word you're attuned to, and it coaxes the Symphony to supply some Essence for you *and* the Superior from whose Word it derives. This would explain why Superiors tend to hand out special Rites as their commonest reward, and when rewarding someone else's Servitor are more likely to give a Rite than anything else. It would also go a long way toward explaining the huge Essence supplies that Superiors can throw around. >My current notion on this is the "Word Forces" concept. With this, >Word-bound (including Superiors) max-out at 6/6/6 and 18 >characteristics, but have additional Forces that provide other benefits >(like lots of Essence to play with). This avoids some game-mechanics >problems related to the d666 and higher stats, and will make Word-bound >noisier and harder to kill. The notion of Word-Forces is intriguing, and I would *love* to see it detailed in a future supplement provided it didn't involve too much retconning of published Word-bound characters. However, I don't like the idea of binding Superiors to the 6-Force 12-Characteristic maxima. So what if they get autosuccesses? Maybe some of the things Superiors do aren't intrinsically profound mysteries at all, but just impossibly difficult for beings limited to the ordinary characteristic range. Suppose, for example, that sticking Forces together to create a new celestial isn't an ineffable Superior skill but is simply an effort that requires a Will roll at -15 with a minimum check digit of 10 + # of Forces, given that said Forces are ready to hand from some appropriate source. Having base rolls over 12 is not system-breaking as long as there are really difficult tasks that require either large penalties or high check digit thresholds. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 10:30:42 PDT From: "Bartholomew Hammerly" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Children of the Grigori I expect that we will see information in a later cycle. Watchword "patience". It's hard for me, too. I think a Grigori character would be even more interesting to play than Grigori Kinder. Any comment on this Emily, Beth, or Walter? >From: "Scott Weber" >Okay, I finally bought the game yesterday, read through it, and then came >to the website and ultimately here... how ironic that the one part of the >game that I find the most interesting is the one part I can't seem to get >any important information on, as far as mechanics goes, etc. Children of >the Grigori. How do I set up a character who is a child of the Grigori, >mechanics-wise? Bart Hammerly H 526.0607 W 684.2826 3093 "Time is the fire in which we burn." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 13:32:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Highway Star Subject: Re: IN> Changing Nature of Words According to James Palmer: > Doesn't this imply that the Word is in English? It seems a little odd A word like SPAM is inherently English, as its usage. In all probability, the Demon that took it as a Word took it in the English form. Other angels/demons? They took the celestial/foreign language concept of the word, and it's just in English now for convenience... All MHO, of course, YMMV. SeanMike - -- __^\ | SeanMike Whipkey | Smile! The Illuminati are __/ * | | Professional Student| watching. / \ | GWAR Cyberslave | I don't see you, so don't - --------- | Hail Eris! FNORD | pretend you're there. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 13:34:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Baal and Michael > Michael may have represented "constructive chaos", then -- using chaos > to produce order (since that was all associated with constucting the > physical universe). Further thinking along those lines will probably > get more metaphysical than is healthy for a simple engineer... so I'll > stop here. What about a complex engineer? Or a fractal engineer? What if you find yourself existing in several logarithmic dimensions of space and time at once? What if you are the engineer who exists in the closed universe defined by a solution to General Relativity? The mind boggles! Boggles, I say! - - Em. :::> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 10:38:20 PDT From: "Bartholomew Hammerly" Subject: IN> Nitpicking (was Re: IN- Angels of Purity) I'll keep this response short. I believe nitpicking has three purposes. 1. To point out new "truths". You look at a rule in a new way, to give you insight on how to play the game. 2. To point out mistakes. This gives the publisher a change to correct original mistakes, and create a less flawed canon. 3. To bitch and moan. I think this is what most people complain about. If you don't have a fix, don't complain. Otherwise, ask for clarification. Sorry. I realize I haven't really added anything of consequence. > By the by, feel free to put my name on the 'Stop the Nitpicking Crusade' >> petition. Bart Hammerly "Time is the fire in which we burn." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 13:39:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Stat limits > >What we are hoping for is expanded rules or 2nd edition rules which talks > >about what happens when you pass the 18 Force limit. > > I would guess probably not 2nd ed., more likely in an expansion book > with other expanded rules (we need more stuff on high-power characters > for other reasons -- sometime soon a PC will get Word-bound, and there's > not really much on this yet in the rules). There are some good > candidate proposals kicking around where these rules might fit in. I ain't gonna elaborate on the need for a 2nd Edition In Nomine, and how all the rules are not only scattered throughout the sourcebook, but through nine additional books as well, where it is only getting worse. And how, if you don't know what you're doing, it can take up to three hours to make one character with the main rules. You can just close your eyes and imagine the rant. :) - - Em. :::> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 10:48:53 PDT From: "Bartholomew Hammerly" Subject: IN> Re: IN- In Nomine character maximums Plus, never forget that your superior can hose you good if he/she/it wants to. If you're a GM worried about creating super-characters, give your players a complex adventure with morally problematic issues that make them eat a little dissonance to get the job done. Let the superior strip 'em of a couple of forces. They still have their skills, after all. So, encourage your players to buy relics (or take a few game years off to make 'em) and blow them up. Much fun (heh heh). >From: Walter Milliken >One fix to the problem is not to allow characters to raise >characteristics (and Forces) directly with experience points -- require >the Superior to grant that, giving the GM more control. > >The IN rewards system is already fairly loose, favoring Superior-granted >awards; it's not much of a leap to limit experience points to improving >existing skills, Songs and Roles (plus maybe acquiring Servants and >learning new skills the mundane way). Bart Hammerly "Time is the fire in which we burn." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 13:50:32 -0400 From: John Karakash - LUCENT ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Ofanim and Servitor of Wind Questions Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > At 5:41 PM -0400 5/1/98, Charybdis GreyDragon wrote: > > >1) Will an Ofanim gain Dissonance and eventually Fall if he is constrained > >against his will? I mean, can a resourceful Demon just chain up an Ofanim > >and wait for the inevitable? Or does an Ofanim only gain Dissonance if he > >is free to act and does not? > > The latter, but it is *very uncomfortable* for an Ofanite to be > confined! *VERY*. And terrifying. What she said! > >2) The same exact question, but regarding the Servitors of the Wind. > > Here, I think that if they *are* confined, held in one place for > over 3 days, they do get problems. Yes. Their archangel might be kind with removing dissonance/discord if they were otherwise doing their job properly. > >3) Can any Servitor of the Wind (not just Ofanim) take Claustrophobia for > >2 pts/lvl instead of 1 for the same reasons that an Ofanim could? > > No -- they have to change *locale* in 3 days, not constantly be moving- > moving-moving the way Ofanim do. Also yes. No errata today! ;) > >4) Does an Ofanim serving Janus get double Dissonance for inaction since > >it is Dissonant for both his Choir and Archangel? Or does he just get > >lucky and only have one set of restrictions to follow? > > Ofanim must act, Windies must keep moving. It's not *quite* the same. > An Ofanite can gain dissonance in a second -- they see a child about to > be hit by a car and just stand there. Windies just have to move on for > at least a day (my ruling) after they've been in the area for 3 days. > > No, I don't know if it's one point of dissonance per day over 3, or > per 3 day intervals. Ask the GM. My personal take is if they _voluntarily_ stay in place for multiple 3-day blocks, they take dissonance every 3 days. If they are held in a place, they only get hit once. That's somewhat inconsistent, but, hey, what campaign isn't? > >5) Does Janus actually *have* Tethers? > > Yes. Yes. > >6) Does traveling a set circuit... ie Houston for 3 days, then El Paso for > >3 days, then Dallas for 3 days and then back to Houston count as moving on > >for purposes of avoiding Dissonance? Yes. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 18:51:07 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Stat limits On Fri, May 08, 1998 at 01:18:58PM -0400, York H. Dobyns wrote: > Walter Milliken writes: > [...] > >A short-term fix is to get them into more celestial combat.... > Sometimes that's not easily done. Non-combat characters of mine simply aren't going to go Celestial unless they want to go to Heaven/Hell, or are entirely sure that they're not facing Celestials. With combat characters, it's somewhat different, of course, but they're less likely to lose. (I've been in one Celestial combat so far, and the Malakite I was engaging was already _losing_ against a Shedite.) There aren't many ways of forcing someone to go Celestial. > Ouch, ouch, ouch...one problem is that there is no guarantee that > celestial combat will remove Forces from the problem area. I once wrote > up a starting character, designed as a Davidic melee bruiser, with 6 > Corporeal forces (1 Ethereal, 2 Celestial) -- I can just see a Celestial > combat with this chump, with a couple of wrong die rolls, dumping a > 6-Cor 0-Eth 0-Cel Remnant on the game world. *Just* what every game > needs, an inhumanly strong and utterly tireless mindless idiot whose > only remaining skill is Fighting. (Then again, I think I've seen Champions > characters like that.) > One could argue that with 1 Ethereal Force, he was already that way. The thing that's missing is an elaboration of the process of what happens to a Celestial whose Word wanes, and general guidelines for measuring Word strength on the cosmic scale. > The notion of Word-Forces is intriguing, and I would *love* to see > it detailed in a future supplement provided it didn't involve too much > retconning of published Word-bound characters. Ditto. However, I don't like the > idea of binding Superiors to the 6-Force 12-Characteristic maxima. So what > if they get autosuccesses? Maybe some of the things Superiors do aren't > intrinsically profound mysteries at all, but just impossibly difficult > for beings limited to the ordinary characteristic range. I prefer intrinsically profound mysteries myself, and there are certain bits in the Liber Reliquarum that support that position, like what happens when Laurence picks up a sword. (It becomes the sword of automatic killing with one blow, except against Celestials of similar or higher power level.) Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "If you let it get too far it would be the end of everything. You would have bicycles wanting votes and they would get seats on the County Council and make the roads far worse than they are for their own ulterior motivation." The Third Policeman, by Flann O'Brien. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 May 98 13:51 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: IN> Ceilings and Superiors [Casca:] >On Wed, 6 May 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> The In Nomine Line Editor (that's me) says: No characteristics >> above 12. No Forces over 6. No skill-levels over 6. Anything >> else, please check errata and then tell me about it if it's >> not there, so I can put it there. > >Then how do you account for the power gap between powerful-but-still-in- >PC-range Masters/Barons and AAs/DPs? What makes Ambassadors/Dukes/etc so >special? The highest-level Distinctions carry mostly command power over large numbers of Servitors, I believe. Same sort of thing that makes President Clinton powerful.... I suspect they also tend to have moderately powerful Words. Archangels and Demon Princes have many additional powers, but it's not clear if they really need significantly higher stats, except for a virtually infinite (from a PC viewpoint) supply of hit points and Essence. >Or are you saying there -is- no difference? In which case, I must ask the >question "What is the quantifiable difference between being an AA/DP and >merely a powerful Wordbound?" Ability to create Servitors. Ability to grant attunements. Ability for multiple presence in different locations. Ability to graft Forces. Ability to create vessels outside of Limbo. Ability to fairly trivially make artifacts. Probably deeper perceptions of the Symphony, especially related to how Forces are put together, and how they are related to themes in the Symphony (i.e., Words). At some point, there will probably be more canon on Superior abilities (though almost certainly not quantifying them in more than the loosest way). Ditto for Word-bound. > There -must- be one, or next you'll be >telling me that AAs/DPs are bound by the same silly strictures. For basic stats, they may be. > And if >THAT happens, I'll dismiss everyone on staff at SJG as flipping loonies. That is Truth, Seraph. But they're *fun* loonies.... (As a side note, very few of the In Nomine editors and writers are SJGames staff -- most of them are freelancers.) >We need a middle class to differentiate between the upper (Superiors) and >lower (PCs). That's the Word-bound, in my opinion. We don't really have rules for them as PCs yet -- just the vaguest outlines. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 10:58:32 PDT From: "Bartholomew Hammerly" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Changing Nature of Words A SPAM by any other name, would still smell? I agree, though, that spam is one of those words that has universally entered the language. Shop for it in Japan, it's there. On the face of the can "SPAM" in big letters. I don't believe they buy it much in Germany, though. Too many memories of air-dropped supplies in Post WWII, I guess. I believe "spam" (as in e-mail) is also universally used. Be interesting to see how it's pronounced in Celestial. Something akin to some sort of puking noise. Somehow I doubt there's an Angel of Spam. Maybe an Angel of Spam Death? >From: Highway Star >A word like SPAM is inherently English, as its usage. > >In all probability, the Demon that took it as a Word took it in >the English form. > >Other angels/demons? They took the celestial/foreign language >concept of the word, and it's just in English now for >convenience... > >All MHO, of course, YMMV. Bart Hammerly "Time is the fire in which we burn." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 May 98 13:57 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine character maximums > Experience points are really only neccessary if you're accepting the whole >'delayed gratification' thing that a lot (OK, almost all) RPGs focus on. If you >enjoy the character you create, why the urge to make them different? There are a number of answers to that, including "character growth" and the fact that many games limit starting characters to the lower power levels of a genre, as In Nomine does. Traveller went the route you suggest, and I've heard any number of people complain about it as one of the more annoying flaws in the original system. TFOS takes the viewpoint that's it's sort of dumb, but rather Pavlovian to award experience points, and suggests using M&Ms instead. In other words, it's not a new idea, but seems to be wanted/expected by players. It's probably due to some deep flaw in human psychology that leads to things like video games and MBAs.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 14:01:08 -0400 From: John Karakash - LUCENT ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Magic Drake wrote: > > Hey there > > I have been thinking about the nature of magic in In Nomine as of late, > and have decided that the way it is now, sorcerers are far weaker then > what they should be able to, as they can only use Corporeal versions of > Songs, as well as having their 3 specialized skills. > > Well inorder to make an attempt at correcting this problem and giving > sorcerers a much greater potential, I have decided to let sorcerers be > able to learn Ethereal and Celestial versions of Songs, but in order to > do so, would require a great amoung of study and practice. What this > translates to is a Sorcerer can learn any Ethereal Songs, but the song > would cost double in character points and in Essence cost. The same goes > with Celestial songs, but at triple the cost. > > Now as for Soldiers, I was thinking that they can do the same thing as > Sorcerers, for learning the Eth and Cel Songs, but only once they have > reached 3 Eth or Cel Forces, reflecting their greater understanding of > the Symphony. I did much the same thing with a 'secret society' idea I had. A group of outcasts/Grigori set up an organization to teach humans how to protect themselves (along with other, more secret, goals). - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 12:58:11 -0500 From: "Scott Weber" Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Children of the Grigori Well, actually... do we really need any more information than is already present? If, for instance, a Child of the Grigori were considered a celestial, I'd pretty much know how to set him up, in most respects. If he were mortal, however... well, then it's not so easy. I'm just looking for a quick fix, really, some simple rules on how the Children of the Grigori should be set up... preferably if those rules came from an "official" source. - ---------- > From: Bartholomew Hammerly > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: IN> Re: IN- Children of the Grigori > Date: Friday, May 08, 1998 12:30 PM > > I expect that we will see information in a later cycle. Watchword > "patience". It's hard for me, too. I think a Grigori character would > be even more interesting to play than Grigori Kinder. Any comment on > this Emily, Beth, or Walter? > > >How do I set up a character who is a child of the Grigori, > >mechanics-wise? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 14:07:41 -0400 From: John Karakash - LUCENT ASCC Subject: Re: IN> djinn and healing Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >My question therefore is, would the corp song of healing work on > >an inanimate object? > > I believe that the answer for this is yes. Definitely yes. Lemme tell you about the Auto Mechanic/Faith Healer character I came up with... ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 May 98 14:06 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: SV: IN> In Nomine character maximums [Jens:] >The players I GM tend to take a bunch of discords to start out >with. This only works for demons and Outcasts (and the latter shouldn't have *too* many or they're much too likely to get noticed by Judgment. > Due to the number of discords available and the fact that they all >give you three CP per level taken means that many discords are very >"cheap" gamewise. That is, they give you a lot of points without really >hindering you. If they're not hindering, then that generally means the GM isn't doing his job. > If, for instance, you have a very high or very low >Perception, you can (due to the d666 bell curve) take several levels of >Celestial Blindness without it affecting your chance of perceiving >someone in celestial form. Well, low Perception is usually enough of a penalty in and of itself. And high Perception usually robs Will, which is also a major problem in most of the games I've seen. If a PC did this *just* to offset Celestial Blindness' effects, I don't think I'd care much, I can make their life Hell in other ways.... > All in all, the rules for starting discords >need very heavy GM supervision (or self-moderation on the part of the >player), otherwise, they rapidly turn into easy freebie points. Yes, they need some maturity on the part of the player and/or the GM, but In Nomine isn't more than rather casually game-balanced, anyway -- it pretty much assumes non-munchkin players. There are plenty of other ways for munchkins to be annoying in the game. - ---Walter ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #766 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.