From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon May 11 11:36:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA24044 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 11:36:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id LAA13268 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 11:31:16 -0500 Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:31:16 -0500 Message-Id: <199805111631.LAA13268@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #771 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, May 11 1998 Volume 01 : Number 771 In this digest: IN> Angels of Purity Re: IN> Requests anyone (was Stat Limits a long time ago) Re: IN> How can you bind a celestial? Re: IN> How can you bind a celestial? Re: IN> IN: Superiors, Rites and Essence Re: IN> What's the best source of info... Re: IN> IN: Superiors, Rites and Essence Re: IN> Re: IN- More Questions. Re: IN> Re: IN- Writing Canon Re: IN> IN: Superiors, Rites and Essence IN> Name for the Songbook Re: IN> Re: IN- Writing Canon Re: IN> IN: Superiors, Rites and Essence Re: IN> Asmodeus's Rite Re: IN> Angels of Purity Re: IN> Idle thoughts Re: IN> Idle thoughts Re: Tethers and Essence (was Re: IN> Stat limits) IN> What is the War about? Re: IN> What is the War about? Re: IN> What is the War about? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 04:12:11 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Angels of Purity >>>So the reason no Tsayadim has ever fallen is that they stop being Tsayadim when they go Outcast.<<< No. An angel of Purity is still an angel of Purity if he becomes an Outcast, just like any other Outcast Servitor. No Tsayadim has ever Fallen because, like Malakim, they can become Outcast but they _cannot_ Fall. The only way a Tsayadim can cease being a Tsayadim is to voluntarily abandon his Word (Malakim don't even have that option). >>>Am I right in thinking you mean that the Tsayadim only ever go Outcast voluntarily, rather than on a failed dissonance roll?<<< No, they can go Outcast involuntarily, but they cannot cease to be Angels of Purity (and Fall) involuntarily. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 05:24:24 -0400 From: Thomas Davidson Subject: Re: IN> Requests anyone (was Stat Limits a long time ago) Bartholomew Hammerly wrote: > > Well... OK. Since demons can use the same songs as angels (with certain > exceptions), how about? > > The Celestial Songbook -- posthumously translated by J.S.B. > "Southern Harmony and Musical Companion"? No... wait, there's already a book with that title... and an album by the Black Crowes (probably their best one, too). - -- Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us http://wwp.mirabilis.com/7789233/ UIN: 7789233 http://www.accessdenied.net/cgi-bin/main.cgi?userid=326&newuser=profile MUSIC: Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones, Rush, Jimi Hendrix GAMES: Champions (old and new), In Nomine, Nephilim TV: The X-Files, the Simpsons, Superman, The Tick, the Animaniacs OTHER: Religion, Philosophy, mysticism, the runes, the Tarot, writing. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 10:09:44 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> How can you bind a celestial? On Sun, May 10, 1998 at 11:00:47PM +0100, Jo Hart wrote: > Another tack is that if you can take an opponent's mind hits down to zero, > they will lose consciousness. I'm not sure what that precisely means if > they are in celestial form but probably stuns them for longer. Handy songs > for this are: > 3. Ethereal Song of Entropy. The Ethereal Song of Entropy suffers from the same problems as the Celestial Song of Entropy, and inflicts too few mind hits to be really useful against anyone with 3 EthForces. > 4. Numinous Corpus/ Tongue at a high level. > > Also, some demonic resonances might have the desired effect. It might be > possible to Habbalate an opponent with enough emptiness that they cease to > care about escaping, Emptiness will slow them down as well, giving them only half actions. It might be easier to inflict Fury, which will make sure they stay to fight. Either use will lower the target's Intelligence or Precision by your Ethereal Forces. Shame or Guilt might be good as well. I'm not sure if Emptiness will prevent someone leaving. The fact that it specifies that the victim has half its normal actions would indicate that the victim can act. I'd tend to rule that Cherubim and Habbalah are more badly affected by it than, say, Elohim, but I amn't sure about other Celestials. I'm not sure if you can do Calabite of Factions to sever the victim's relationship with itself. Almost certainly not. or to Balseraph someone into not wanting to leave, or > to geas someone into staying. If staying in the room is very obviously > going to lead to souldeath, these might be a bit tricky. > Have you read the official rules on Balseraphing in combat? They have to allow you 3 rounds or so to make your pitch undistracted, or it cannot be done. > > The only reason I can think of for not summoning your superior is that it > might give them the same idea... or your superior might be Janus in which > case you are probably on your own (and possibly better off on your own :) ) > Horrible things happen when the Superiors summoned to the scene are Janus and Baal, in my experience at least. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "If you let it get too far it would be the end of everything. You would have bicycles wanting votes and they would get seats on the County Council and make the roads far worse than they are for their own ulterior motivation." The Third Policeman, by Flann O'Brien. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 09:59:30 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> How can you bind a celestial? On Sun, May 10, 1998 at 05:33:20PM -0400, Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: > >In old magic books you can invoke a demon so in In-nomine can you also bind > >one? I need to know how to keep, in celestial form, a celestial from leaving > >a room so we can beat on it. > > > Easy way: Get one of your friends to grapple it, and then you may > beat on it in an underhanded manner. Even that only halves his movement > rate, and he can still jump to the Celestial, and he can continue to beat > on you just fine. > If you've got a Sorceror on your side who knows Focus Skill, and a quarter > of an hour, Focus/1 will let him set up a Protective Ward that will keep > the Demon in. It will also keep the Angels and Ethereals out, so you're There is some question about the effectiveness of Wards vs Angels. It's stated in the Marches that Angels are "adept at foiling the Essence constructs made with Focus". > either trapped in there with him, or can't touch him physically or > celestially. (Cel Light might be helpful.) > > > Barring that, there are very few ways on Earth, short of Artifacts and > certain attunements, to stop a Celestial Form, and far, far fewer ways to > get someone to the Celestial plane who doesn't want to go. Which, I > imagine, makes things very tough on Gamers and Judgies. > My guess is that the Celestial Song of Shields does the trick. I don't have an exact wording with me, but I believe it specifically blocks Resonances and prevents anyone from seeing in or out of the affected area. Since it blocks Perception, I'd rule that you can't leave the area in Celestial form. And that Song lasts for minutes, IIRC, giving you plenty of time to beat up on said Celestial. Along with the Song of Celestial Light, this is the Song of Shedite Killing. (As a bonus, it also delays the disturbance.) The Celestial Song of Charm should be saved for when you've stripped about a Force away with said Song of Light, and are willing to enter Celestial combat. The Celestial Song of Charm lasts only rounds, unfortunately. I note in passing that all Songs of Shields are area-effect Songs, rather than personal defences. (Dissonance Binding prevents the Celestial from spending Essence.) Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "If you let it get too far it would be the end of everything. You would have bicycles wanting votes and they would get seats on the County Council and make the roads far worse than they are for their own ulterior motivation." The Third Policeman, by Flann O'Brien. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:10:06 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> IN: Superiors, Rites and Essence On Fri, May 08, 1998 at 08:25:33PM +0200, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > This has been my understanding as well, esp. with regards to Ethereals, > who get their essence specifically from the rites and rituals their > followers perform, if I'm not mistaken. > I believe rites performed by the worshippers of Ethereals send Essence from the worshipper to the Ethereal. I think there has to be an element of zero-sumness in the whole Essence business because otherwise the Demon Princes would have infinite Servitors by this stage. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "If you let it get too far it would be the end of everything. You would have bicycles wanting votes and they would get seats on the County Council and make the roads far worse than they are for their own ulterior motivation." The Third Policeman, by Flann O'Brien. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:24:22 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> What's the best source of info... On Sat, May 09, 1998 at 01:36:44PM +0100, Roland Ward wrote: > Hi! Having recently bought the In nonime rule book and some of the > suppliments i'm looking for a FAQ for the game, plus some tasters for Well, the FAQ is on the site somewhere, and I presume that you can find it since you found this list. > I'm looking for just basic info like "How quickly will PC's be aware of > other celestials?" Unusual behaviour. Possession of information they couldn't possibly have gotten by mundane means. The rule that something supernatural happens when they spend Essence to boost a roll, which is probably the most overlooked rule in the entire game. Various resonances, if your character is a Celestial. And the usual stuff like weird supernatural occurences, or seeing Celestial forms, or being told by someone else. "How do others percieve songs?" etc. > The banal answer to this is that you perceive Songs by their effects. When people start screaming for no reason, it could be that someone has hit them with the Ethereal or Celestial Songs of Entropy. Or maybe it's a coincidence. If you're looking for the Disturbance rules, I can't give you page numbers, but the main rulebook contains them somewhere before the Resources section, and that's as clear as they get. > I'm also planning on running some mortals to start off with - that way the > group can sort of learn together. Is this wise? > I suppose it depends on your group. It might be better not to kick people in the deep end with Celestials at the start. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "If you let it get too far it would be the end of everything. You would have bicycles wanting votes and they would get seats on the County Council and make the roads far worse than they are for their own ulterior motivation." The Third Policeman, by Flann O'Brien. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 13:09:19 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> IN: Superiors, Rites and Essence On Mon, 11 May 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > On Fri, May 08, 1998 at 08:25:33PM +0200, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > > > This has been my understanding as well, esp. with regards to Ethereals, > > who get their essence specifically from the rites and rituals their > > followers perform, if I'm not mistaken. > > > I believe rites performed by the worshippers of Ethereals send Essence > from the worshipper to the Ethereal. I think there has to be an element of > zero-sumness in the whole Essence business because otherwise the Demon > Princes would have infinite Servitors by this stage. Ah, you're right there, I think. It's been a while since I read up on this. I'm not sure about the DP argument, though. If one of them started churning out dozens of demons, the other DP:s, and probably Lucifer as well, would take a very unhealthy interest in it... Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! "Jesus hade skägg" - Dom Dummaste ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 13:10:29 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- More Questions. On Mon, 11 May 1998, Leath Sheales wrote: > IMG, one fo the few things that can really get Yves upset is > mispronouncing names (especially his). This is because he originally > named everything (and now his angels help him), and to chaneg the way > you say it is to change the name. IMO, this bugs him. Hm. So Yves is prejudiced against Americans since they can't pronounce potato and tomato correctly? ;) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! "Jesus hade skägg" - Dom Dummaste ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 13:13:40 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Writing Canon On Mon, 11 May 1998, Simon Hailes wrote: > At 02:07 AM 11/05/98 -0500, you wrote: > >As for comics... ugh. Comics aren't the same as they used to be when I was > >a kid... it's one of those industries that has fallen victim to the common > >marketing ploy, (Can you say "Death of Superman" boys and girls?) and I > >seriously doubt that anyone could make a good comic of In Nomine without > >making it excessively cheesy, unless it were an independent comic company, > >like Aardvark-Vanaheim, or something. > >> Arent we being just a little jaded? I think comics are just as good as > ever, the old ones may fall by the wayside but there are always new and > better ones coming out, some that are quite original and have Quality. I agree. There are lots of really good comics out there, but they're often difficult to find. Astro City, Bone, Strangers in Paradise and Cerebus are only four examples. (Well, at least -I- like them.:) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! "Jesus hade skägg" - Dom Dummaste ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:28:15 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> IN: Superiors, Rites and Essence On Mon, May 11, 1998 at 01:09:19PM +0200, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > I believe rites performed by the worshippers of Ethereals send Essence > > from the worshipper to the Ethereal. I think there has to be an element of > > zero-sumness in the whole Essence business because otherwise the Demon > > Princes would have infinite Servitors by this stage. > > I'm not sure about the DP argument, though. If one of them started > churning out dozens of demons, the other DP:s, and probably Lucifer as > well, would take a very unhealthy interest in it... > Well, it's canon that they _try_ to churn out as many as they can without reducing themselves. Since all of them do it, it doesn't give any of them an advantage relative to each other, and gives them an advantage relative to Archangels. Since I believe Forces are made of Essence, then it means you can tap Essence from rites in order to make new Servitors who give you Essence by using rites. There has to be a limit to this other than the limit of "all the Essence there is in the Symphony" because all that limit does is mean that you're destroying Heaven's ecological niche. Granted, it may be a problem if the War is ever won, but nobody seriously believes that if such a thing would happen the DPs would rule together in peace and harmony anyway. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "If you let it get too far it would be the end of everything. You would have bicycles wanting votes and they would get seats on the County Council and make the roads far worse than they are for their own ulterior motivation." The Third Policeman, by Flann O'Brien. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 07:23:01 -0400 From: Stacy Stroud Subject: IN> Name for the Songbook Quoth Scott Weber: >*giggle* I think something with the word "Hymnal" would be cool... "The >Celestial Hymnal," or something to that effect. :) I agree. Every time I've seen David mention the Songbook, I think "Why not 'Hymnal'?" But you folks beat me to the recommendation (well, counter-recommendation in G.G.'s case). So I'll just second you. Give us a Hymnal, SJG! Stacy Stroud sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:37:32 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Writing Canon Scott Weber wrote: > As for comics... ugh. Comics aren't the same as they used to be when I was > a kid... it's one of those industries that has fallen victim to the common > marketing ploy, (Can you say "Death of Superman" boys and girls?) and I > seriously doubt that anyone could make a good comic of In Nomine without > making it excessively cheesy, unless it were an independent comic company, > like Aardvark-Vanaheim, or something. Two things: 1. Comics are starting to struggle out of the market-ploy ghetto that they spent most of the 90's in. There are some terrific comcis coming out right now (and a whole lot of total dreck). Whether or not quality can gain control before the whole industry disappears up it's own arsehole is another question - comcis are a steadily shrinking market, and things are bit grim right now... 2. Check the FICTION link on the official IN pages. It includes a comment that they plan to do novels, short stories and comics. Once SJG sorts out the legalese of getting the international rights from France, hopefully they'll be putting out all kinds of stuff. Since I plan (hope?) to be writing some of it (and will be campaigning real hard for dibs on the comics), I have strong hopes that we'll see some quality work coming one of these days. - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia They may walk hand in hand Like lovers through the market square Selecting leathergoods, pretending that they just don't care They say all the boys are monsters, all the girls are whores SQUIRREL NUT ZIPPERS, "Plenty More" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 13:35:44 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> IN: Superiors, Rites and Essence > Well, it's canon that they _try_ to churn out as many as they can without > reducing themselves. Since all of them do it, it doesn't give any of them > an advantage relative to each other, and gives them an advantage relative > to Archangels. Since I believe Forces are made of Essence, then it > means you can tap Essence from rites in order to make new Servitors who > give you Essence by using rites. I think that if you did want to use the 1:1 essence generation idea from rites, it could still work. You'd just have to say that there is considerably more to being a powerful superior than just having a huge essence pool to tap. That is part of it, and probably is most important for celestial power struggles (ie. how you maintain your principality and defend it against infernal usurpers etc), but another significant measure of power is involved with spreading your word amongst the mortals. Maybe the symphony doesn't have an infinite amount of essence in it that could be generated from rites -- instead, the limit is set by how powerful the Word is from which the rite stems. So what an ambitious superior needs to do is: a) Have lots of demons spreading the word in order to 'increase the essence yield' b) Have lots of demons on earth doing rites, to 'harvest' the essence c) Have lots of tethers to funnel the earth-generated essence back to your principality. (My interpretation, I don't think tethers generate essence, but they could be celestial 'pipelines') If you look at things this way, being a superior resembles a strategy game ; - -) If you have too many demons doing rites, then your potential essence pool will run dry and the demons will no longer be able to generate essence from your rites and will get unruly. Ideally you'd have precisely enough demons doing rites to harvest all the essence as efficiently as possible, but in practice it is difficult to really measure the quantities involved and demons can be a real pain to organise, because they often get distracted and go off to do their own thing. Another fallout from this is that superiors may direct their underlings to perform their rites in specific ways, depending on how the essence flow is going. eg. Andre might forbid his demons from having sex with each other temporarily if he thinks his word needs more of a push and instead tell them that they must involve a mortal in order to use that rite. (They might disobey, of course. The rite will probably still work) Angels are supposed to be keen to promote their superior's words even without the benefits of getting essence so should be less of a problem, but even then some may be directed to concentrate more on the rites to the exclusion of other activities if the archangel is planning something which needs heavy essence resources. I think that'd work, conceptually :) jo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 09:17:38 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Asmodeus's Rite Nana-Yaw Ofori: >Yeah, I know it's technically not a Rite, I just like to think of it that >way. Makes, to me, a bit more sense than just "You get 2 Essence every >sunset." It's a reward for Not Losing the Game yet. Ah. In my own game, demons have no connection to the Symphony and no natural way of getting Essence. This is one of the reasons they are interested in corrupting humans -- every soul in the Pit is another point of Essence for the lords of the Pit. (Infernal words are another way of stealing Essence from the universe; in fact IMC they are the original way.) Since Asmodeus, as Prince of the Game, is in charge of distributing Essence to the legions of Hell, he makes sure that his demons get first shot at it. This is why they get 2 Essence a day rather than one. He can't actually short anyone without the other Princes ganging up on him and killing him. This is why even renegades usually continue to draw Essence: the other Princes think that preventing Asmodeus from being able to declare someone renegade and cutting off his Essence is worth giving renegades an edge. This doesn't mean he doesn't do it; it's just not worth the risk unless the reward is big enough. Someone he had Djinn-obsessed on, something who had angered him in a deep and personal way, and other sorts of things PCs tend to stumble into... :) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 09:35:11 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Angels of Purity On Sun, 10 May 1998, Steve Jessop wrote: > So the reason no Tsayadim has ever fallen is that they stop being Tsayadim > when they go Outcast. In this definition of terms, surely no servitor of > *any* AA has ever fallen (except on a 666 dissonance roll? I can't > remember whether that is Outcast or Fallen). > > Am I right in thinking you mean that the Tsayadim only ever go Outcast > voluntarily, rather than on a failed dissonance roll? As I understand it, yes. They work like the Malakim. As long as they serve Purity, they just rack up the dissonance and discord until another Tsayadim notices. Then they kill him. Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 18:42:32 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Idle thoughts >I mean, really - if He created Lucifer, why wouldn't He have the ability to >destroy him as well, just as easily? Perhaps this is an agnostic or DADAist >view of things, but I've sometimes thought maybe life itself is merely a >form of entertainment for God - we struggle through life trying to make >sense of the senseless, and why? What does He get out of it? Entertainment >seems like the only likely answer, sometimes. This, again, is of course >just the personal thoughts of someone with way too much time on his >hands... Whether or not that's truly the case, it'd make a pretty cool game >scenario, though, wouldn't it? None of the Archangels, except *maybe* Yves, >would even know... and if Yves did know, he'd never tell anybody... it'd >make for the explanation of why God doesn't just appear to kill off Lucifer >and the demons. I've never liked the idea that we were just a TV set for the higher powers. There is a reason for everything. Even if we are just God's TV set, then he has a reason for it. To step away from my analogy, we have clarified the following: 1) God created everything. 2) God is omniscient (all knowing) 3) God knowingly created "evil" and entities to promote it. 4) God created humans that were able to choose good or evil. Taking the above into consideration, the idea that we are "just" entertainment for God becomes a little questionable. I more get the feeling that this is truly an experiment. I really cannot tell you to what end. Can one paramecium on a slide tell the next paramecium what is going on? The entertainment angle would be the same as a video store with thirty tapes. At first, it would be interesting, but after a while all thirty of those tapes wil grow old. Real old. Nothing to move on to. Perhaps this is an argument for free will as well, but thinking that God acts for thrills doesn't fit. I'm sure that there are a few exceptions (As Beth said, "It [the platypus] is just wrong.") Again, these, IMHO, are the exceptions not the rule, Armand ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 09:56:57 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Idle thoughts This thread is now dancing through some of the classic steps in the ancient Problem of Evil Tango. Here's some more: Going back to the start of the thread, Elizabeth Bartley said: "What if... God *cannot* force a free-willed being to choose redemption"? This is a lot like one of the mainstays of the Free Will Defense (part of the general Problem of Evil). Unless they are Calvinist, and possibly even then, most Christian theologians acknowledge that the rules of logical consistency apply to God and that it is not consistent to say that a choice is both free and forced. For virtue to be real, it must be freely chosen. So, if God wants a world in which there is real moral goodness, He *has* to create a world in which there are creatures with free will who can thus choose *not* to be good, too. In this sense, God creates both good and evil. So, on the view of the Free Will Defense, the conflict of Good vs. Evil is not just divine entertainment, but the only possible way for creaturely good to exist. Elizabeth also said: > It seems to me that this makes would make it logical for God to > want the Heavenly Forces active on Earth to put up a valiant, > inspiring effort, and then to _lose_. Congratulations. You have reconstructed something very similar to the escatology called "post-tribulation dispensationalism," in which the faithful have to endure all the horrors of Armageddon before God strikes back. I am not a dispensationalist, myself, but if I were, that is the flavor I would be. (The other two main flavors are "pre-trib" and "mid-trib." Details upon request.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 10:19:41 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: Tethers and Essence (was Re: IN> Stat limits) At 1:58 AM -0400 5/9/98, Sean McCarthy wrote: >In Night Music, it's said of the Treaty Oak: > > "It's hardly a Tether anymore - it generates only a trickle of power >for Laurence and no longer aids travel to the Celestial realm." > > >Now, with that in mind, could that power be Essence? I think it would >be. I also think that a constant flow of Essence would make noise. >Tethers are said to be generally noisy, which isn't really explained >in canon. Are they noisy because people are popping in and out of the >Celestial realm? Is the noise from people assuming celestial form? >None of that can be so constant, I would think. If you are on Earth, >you're expected to be staying there for a while. Plus, that really >isn't a good masking. If there was a constant flow of Essence that >tended to wash out other noise from inside the Tether, that would help >explain it. Of course, silly person that I am, I assume there will be >a Book of Tethers to explain all of this and give us more detailed >examples. > > Another option I've seen used to good effect is that Tethers simply >aren't loud. In fact, some property of being a Tether masks any noise >that does occur there. That can work as well, but I prefer the idea >of Tethers being big, powerful and in the face of the enemy. If the >other side erects a Tether in your back yard, it should be hard to put >it out of your mind. > >Various ramblings and ideas. > >Sean Actually, I've been going with both. Just some odd thoughts I'd been having about Tethers... A Tether links two planes, from a Primary Plane, to a Secondary Plane. By far most commmon are Celestial to Corporeal tethers, the typical in Nomine Tether, spanning from Heaven or Hell to an Earthly location. Ethereal to Corporeal tethers arre the next most common, most often departing from the Glade to Earth, though the Far Maches still contain a great meany of them. Celestial to Ethereal Tethers are much much rarer, the only well-known examples being Blandine's an Beleth's Towers, Corporeal to Ethereal Tethers are strange phenomena, allowing mundane humans to accidentally cross over into the Ethereal Realm. They're usually spontaneous and transient, and responsible for a number of mysteriosu disappearances of people and vehicles. Corporeal-Celestial Tethers work in the same manner, but are far, far rarer. No examples of Ethereal-Celestial Tethers are known to exist. A touch of terminology... Taproot: The Core of the Tether. The Taproot is what anchors the Tether to the corporeal realm. There is a lot of resistance and it is here that attacks on the Tether have to be directed to stand a chance of destroying it. Standing on the Taproot,any symphonically-aware individual can, with a perception roll, look into the canop of the Tether, and get an isea of who the Tether serves, if it hadn't been painfully obvious before. The taproot also usually contains a large Essence Cache that the Seneschal may use in the Tether's defense. Most Tethers have other roots, which are linked to places in the vicinity that are lesser manifestations of the Word the seneschal serves. These help anchor down the Tether, and, if there are enough, may allow a Tether to survive the destruction of its Taproot. Spontaneous Tethers usually only have a Taproot, but Superior-Constructed Tethers normally are shored up with roots. Trunk: What's generally refferred to as the 'Location" of the Tether. All the normal effects of Tethers in In Nomine apply to the Trunk. In my campaigns, non-Relic stuff can be brought down from the Celestial plane by a being in Celestial Form, to Earth, so long as the possessor doesn't leave Celestial Form, and never tries to take the object out of the Tether's Trunk, anmd these objects will work precisely the way they do in Heacen. Assaulting a Tether becomes far harder when the Defenders show up with swords and guns. Canopy: The "Upper" part of the Tether, the link to the principalty, cathedral, or domain of the Tether's Superior. The Seneschal's heart is usually stored here, and emergency personnel are stationed here, with the requsite swords and guns. Anyone departing the primary plane from the vicinity of the Canopy will appear in the Trunk, unless he makes a Will Roll. Three types of Tethers: Stealth Tethers: These are the kinds of Tethers you put in the middle of enemy territory, and usually, the kind of Tether that firms spontaneously. These Tethers give off no Disturbance, and thus are not normally detectabke unless you're standing on the Taproot, or attempt to ascend in the trunk. Stealth Tethers fully cloak Disturbance up to half the Seneschal's Forces, and can, at the Seneschal's whim, disguise twice that as generic "Tether Noise," regardless of what caused it. Standard Tethers Standard Tethers constantly emit "Tether Noise" Disturbance equivalent to half the Seneschal's Forces, and, consequently, are easily identifieable as Tethers to any Symphonically-Aware beings in the vicinity. Within their trunks, Disturbances in magnitude up to the Seneschal's Forces are cloaked completely, allowing the Seneschal to hop to the other plane and back as he pleases. The Seneschal's Forces on top of that are cloaked as "Tether Noise" Noisy Tethers Noisy Tethers are like standard Tethers, only, well, noisier. The Senesfchal's forces is still the limit on the magnitude of Disturbances that can be completely cloaked, but there is no theoretical upper limit on the magnitude of Disturbances that can be converted to "Tether Noise." Doubling the disguised Disturbance doubles the constant emission from the Tether, the same with tripling, and quadrupling ,and so on. = http://www.io.com/~beholder ===================== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Spiner, Djinn Knight of Dark Humor, the Demon of Straight Men ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 08:42:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Shumaker Subject: IN> What is the War about? Hello, Before I really get into this I should note that I am new to In Nomine, so I expect to be wrong :) Having grown up in a church I have seen many things wrong with the Canon of Angels and Demons so this could be just another difference. My question is this... In Nomine seems to be implying that the end result of the War is not known, i.e. Who knows who will win? In Revelations alone there are several passages that state that God will be victorious. (This is of course if you believe in the Trinity...otherwise Christ will be victorious) The best known passage is, "I am the Alpha, the Omega..." What am I missing? If I'm not missing anything then why the change? I personally don't get the feel from Christianity, Judism, or Islam that the strive between Heaven and Hell is over anything but the souls of mankind. I see the eternal conflict rage over who gets the souls. The Game (as one might call it) is all up when Gabriel gets around to blowing her horn. Explanations or corrections needed please. Jim "Cherub of Protection of the Biblical Word" Shumaker ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:08:22 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> What is the War about? On Mon, 11 May 1998, Jim Shumaker wrote: > Before I really get into this I should note that I am new to In Nomine, so > I expect to be wrong :) Having grown up in a church I have seen many > things wrong with the Canon of Angels and Demons so this could be just > another difference. My question is this... Well, to start with, In Nomine (despite the fact that it draws heavily on Judeo-Christian termonology and mythology) is not about Judeo-Christian beliefs. keep that in mind as you read the books. > In Nomine seems to be implying that the end result of the War is not > known, i.e. Who knows who will win? In Revelations alone there are > several passages that state that God will be victorious. (This is of > course if you believe in the Trinity...otherwise Christ will be > victorious) The best known passage is, "I am the Alpha, the Omega..." > What am I missing? If I'm not missing anything then why the change? Official In Nomine canon is that the outcome of theWar is still up in the air. God is basically using it to see whether good or evil is stronger. Of course, that's the official version. Some of us (me included) don't like that, and so we've changed it. In my campaign, ultimate victory will go to Heaven; the demons are trying to drag as many mortal souls down to Hell as possible, in order to make the War as pyrrhic as possible for Heaven. > I personally don't get the feel from Christianity, Judism, or Islam that > the strive between Heaven and Hell is over anything but the souls of > mankind. I see the eternal conflict rage over who gets the souls. The > Game (as one might call it) is all up when Gabriel gets around to blowing > her horn. Ultimatly, you're right. No matter what version of In Nomine you use (canon or one of the many home-grown versions), the War is about the souls of mankind. Either side could bring an end to the War by destroying the Earth, but neither side wants that. They want the souls of mankind to choose their path, and wholesale destruction would just drive them to the other side. > Explanations or corrections needed please. Well, I hope that helped. > Jim "Cherub of Protection of the Biblical Word" Shumaker Pretty cool Word there, Jim. Does it fall under Dominic or Laurence? Anyway, if you don't like the canon setting, change it so you feel more comfortable with it. I don't think SJG will send the Game or Judgement around to rough you up for it. Besides, I'd like to see your take on a more "Biblical word" version of In Nomine. It could be interesting. Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant No, my version isn't very mainstream Christian. It's a dash of Taoism, a pinch of my religious beliefs (Latter-day Saint), a taste of Christian and jewish angelic lore (mostly Catholic), sprinkled with In Nomine canon, and baked for an hour in my own fertile (and peculiar) mind for 1 hour. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:16:13 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> What is the War about? > >Hello, > >Before I really get into this I should note that I am new to In Nomine, so >I expect to be wrong :) Having grown up in a church I have seen many >things wrong with the Canon of Angels and Demons so this could be just >another difference. My question is this... Oh, boy. Before you get any farther, -forget- whatever you learned in church about any angels or demons. It's not relevant to the game, and the game isn't meant to be taken as a religious document. This is fantasy, plain and simple. >In Nomine seems to be implying that the end result of the War is not >known, i.e. Who knows who will win? In Revelations alone there are >several passages that state that God will be victorious. (This is of >course if you believe in the Trinity...otherwise Christ will be >victorious) The best known passage is, "I am the Alpha, the Omega..." >What am I missing? If I'm not missing anything then why the change? The Angels know they will win... but look at it from the Demonic point of view. From their end, Revelations is just a bunch of Heavenly propoganda, and they'll sweep the forces of 'Good' from the plains of Meggido by sheer numbers. In some of their hearts, of course, the Demons fear just such a total defeat as portrayed in Revelations. And, of course, there are a lot of Angels and Demons who don't want the Last Battle to be any time soon. >I personally don't get the feel from Christianity, Judism, or Islam that >the strive between Heaven and Hell is over anything but the souls of >mankind. I see the eternal conflict rage over who gets the souls. The >Game (as one might call it) is all up when Gabriel gets around to blowing >her horn. In IN, the struggle to turn human souls towards their Destiny or Fate isn;t about getting souls in bulk (although this is useful for the demons), it's about building a power base on Earth. Both sides' leadership know that humanity, the latecomers to the Symphony, will play the decisive role in the Last Battle when it comes. With notable exceptions, the resulting struggles have largely canceled each other out, leaving humanity to choose its own path. An example of angelic, demonic, and human-only triggered events: ANGELIC DEMONIC HUMAN ONLY The Sistine Chapel The French Pope years the Spanish Inquisition Humanity constantly surprises, and outdoes, Celestial expectations. As far as the Afterlife goes, Heaven usually doesn't keep souls- they go directly up to commune with the Almighty Himself- and Hell doesn't care about punishing them- they just want the Essence they can yield up each day and the Forces they're made of. Redneck Kris Overstreet, web pages beyond belief http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/milkmaid/ - The Magnificent Milkmaid ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #771 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.