From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri May 22 06:19:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA16759 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 06:19:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id FAA04188 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 05:59:45 -0500 Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 05:59:45 -0500 Message-Id: <199805221059.FAA04188@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #792 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, May 22 1998 Volume 01 : Number 792 In this digest: Re: IN> Re: IN - Lilith Re: IN> When To Summon, When They Appear Re: IN> In Nomine, a Sam Peckinpah Film (or, Killing Superiors for Fun and Prophet) Re: IN> Right of Passage and Choir/Band Attunements Re: IN> Summoning Superiors Re: IN> Historical plots & time travelling celestials Re: IN> The Superior Question Re: IN> When To Summon, When They Appear Re: IN> Historical plots & time travelling celestials IN> Lilith Re: IN> When To Summon, When They Appear Re: IN> Lilith, Free Lilim, geasa Re: IN> Historical plots & time travelling celestials Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions IN> Demon Prince Auditions- the list! Re: IN> Tether Ready for Construction! Re: IN> Summoning Superiors Re: IN> In Nomine, a Sam Peckinpah Film (or, Killing Superiors for Fun and Prophet) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 14:50:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN - Lilith On Thu, 21 May 1998, Hart, Joanna wrote: > All true, of course ;-) But compared to the kinds of things a standard demon > has to go through it doesn't seem so restrictive. It isn't as if lilim are > the only creatures who can have geases on them -- I'd imagine most demons > who work with a lilim for any period of time get hooked eventually (and > those geases can just as easily be sold or swapped around). Well, not *just* as easily. Lilith can sell a geas to someone else, period; they now have it. Lilim can't do that. The most they can do is taking that Geas/1 to only use the Geas as the new "owner" wishes. That might not seem like a big difference, but it means that the new "owner" must track the Lilim down when he wants to use the Geas, so it can be less than handy in emergency situations. > Really, I was just thinking in terms of a standard starting PC which will > have 9 geas/3s. Sure the geases could get her into hot water (in fact, its > almost obligatory on the GM to make sure they do, I'd think :) ), but really > nastily conflicting geases may count as lilim abuse. Its still only 9 weeks > assuming they aren't combined - to maximise the number of people she can be > sold to. I wouldn't assume that...since Geasa become much more powerful when combined, I'd say it's likely that anyone who really took an interest in the Lilim would happily pay twice as much for the Geas/6. Or, at the other extreme, I'd assume that Lilith can divvy up the Geasa, too...selling 26 Geas/1's to 26 difference people...:) > Unless the PC takes extra geases as a discord. They can do that, but they don't get any points for them. First paragraph of the Geas discord, I believe, makes that clear. > I don't think wordbound is likely to be a consideration here ;) It's really > not a big deal -- but I do think it has to be the plum job in hell, > especially when you think that a lilim can be busily gathering geases > herself on every single mission with which to bargain back at the guildhall Yup, it is a nice deal...Lilim are unique in having that option. But as long as the GM doesn't give them *anything*, and I mean *anything* for free, and the other characters do the same, it all works out fair. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! And finally, a special message to \|/ ____ \|/ anyone who thinks I give a damn... ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 15:10:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> When To Summon, When They Appear Maybe it's just easier with demons (haven't run an angelic game yet), but no group NEVER summons their Superiors even in dire emergencies. They didn't at the end of FoB, not *even* when you-know-who 'emerged' onto the scene. The reasoning? "We don't know how hostile this guy will be towards us - but we KNOW that our Princes will squick us if THEY don't think this is important!" It's happened once. Once. I told y'all the story about the Habbalah redeeming in Disneyworld and siccing a dozen angels on the party. The Bal got away using luck and guile, but the Shedite and Lilim (yeah, they're actually good friends now - weird world, eh?) were surrounded. The Shedite used CelMotion to pop as far away as he could, then they both assumed celestial form...the Shedite went to hell; the Lilim failed the Will roll pretty badly. She figured she had maybe 3 round before the angels got to her, went celestial, and started killing her...in desperation, she summoned Andre. Unfortunately, he appeared simply as a voice in her head, asking what she wanted. Fortunately, after she rattled off the situation (making it VERY clear that there was no way this could be her fault), Andre pulled her down to hell as the first attack was launched. IMC, Superiors come when they want and how they want, and have no qualms about leaving if don't think the situation warrants their attention. And even for a minor bit of aid, as above, they make it clear that you OWE them and must work twice as hard for the next decade or so to make it up to them. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! And finally, a special message to \|/ ____ \|/ anyone who thinks I give a damn... ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 14:27:11 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine, a Sam Peckinpah Film (or, Killing Superiors for Fun and Prophet) >At 12:25 PM -0500 5/19/98, Redneck Gaijin wrote: >>[Beth Wrote] >>>They *become* their Word incarnate. >>> >>I don't know about that. >> >>The problem with this view is that, in many, many cases, Words can be >>interpreted in a wide variety of ways, and each Superior is dedicated to one >>in particular. > >This is true. Hm. Here, think of it in the concept of Word-Forces... >(Can you tell that concept finds great favor with me?) > >Okay, so you're the Demon of Hair (the english word, yet, not the >demonic!). You've been bound to this Word, and it is a part of you. >But your Word-Forces don't exceed your normal Forces by terribly much. >You manage to attract Lucifer's attention with something spectacular >and in a fit of humor, he promotes you to Prince of Hair. > >Now, *WHAM*, you're connected to this theme in the Symphony in a way >you've never *been* before. You see how you can promote this, how >you can tap into this, and your Word-Forces start *growing*. Soon, >more of you is "Hair" than is not. You stretch a little, and get "hair >of the dog that bit you" -- it's a reach, it's hard to drag that theme >over to mingle with what you already have, but you manage. Now you have >a certain type of alcohol-consumption that also feeds your Word (though >in a more minor way). You grab the movie _Hair_ while you're at it, >and that's a little more. Your Word-Forces have diffused and exploded >into great-big-huge-things that nobody *bothers* to try and number -- >but they are certainly now bigger than the little 6/6/6 Forces that >you *used* to be. > >From being the main entity, who has a tap into the power of a Word, >you're now more an *appendage* to that Word. The vast majority of >your being is tied up in that Word. It's all you can think of... >...but the Word itself *could* survive your loss (though without >your promotion, might become less important). > >You are your Word, incarnate. You are the avatar of your Word. Having read this, I'd say that I'm not in favor of the Word-Forces concept. (1) Words provide political power, prestige, Rites, Essence and Servitors. These benefits grant a healthy amount of additional capability to a Celestial without creating a fourth class of Force. (2) New Force = New number-crunching. (3) With the exception of Kronos and his Servitors, Demons -cannot- be bound to the greater Symphony. In all things, it is their -own- personal Symphony that defines what their Word will mean- in the case of the older Demons from the Fall, this is usually a warped version of the Word imbued by God and defined by Yves. (4) Corporeal Forces affect a Celestial's body, Ethereal Forces affect a Celestial's mind, Celestial forces addect a Celestial's essence. What do Word Forces affect, except the Word? Except for the ability to hold additional Essence, they don't seem to give the Celestial any actual added capability, and by your definition they -hamper- them by restricting their capacity to choose and adapt to a given situation. I could think of others if I spent more time, but I have urgent errands to run today. >>>In return, they sacrifice some of their freedom of choice and of >>>perspective. Andrealphus *does* see everything in metaphors of >>>flesh and sensation. Gabriel *cannot* refuse to burn. >> >>These characteristics, and others possessed by other Superiors, are not >>because of the Words, I think, but pre-existed Words and were the aspects >>which made them ideal for those particular Words in the first place. > > It's not an either-or thing. Take Haagenti, as you >did. If the _Pyramid_ article is to be taken seriously, the little >Maw was chowing down through the ranks of Legion's hosts (attracting >Kobal's attention). This got Kobal to sponsor him for the Word of >Gluttony, and then his appetite *really* picked up. Yes, he had >an affinity with the Word before he got it, but once he got it, he >couldn't *not* think in those terms. He couldn't not think of those terms -before- getting Worded either. He had, and has, only two concepts of self-gratification- eating and revenge. And, well, eating is a lot easier. > >Now, let's say the Seraphim Council had had a bad case of brainfry >around the time of Meserach and appointed an *Angel* of Sloth -- an >Ofanite. One who had little interest in the Word, even. What would >that do? Well, in my model, he'd suddenly have it as *part* of him. >He'd start having problems, since a part of him was so *very* out >of sync with his nature. > >Say that God loses a bet with Kobal and has to appoint this poor >Ofanite to Archangel level. Suddenly, his "gotta-keep-moving" nature >is *SWAMPED* by the theme of "SLOTH." He's probably going to either >be miserable, trying to balance his Choir needs against the overwhelming >urges of what he has become the avatar of -- or he's going to Fall. Or the Ofanite could interpret that particular Word as 'not being productive.' You can be as energetic as you like in -playing,- so long as you don't do any actual work. So our lazy Ofanite can zip off to the Riveira, Monte Carlo, Aspen, South Padre, DisneyWorld, etc. so long as he drags his feet to the office. >Druiel, the Angel of Teenage Death, is another case of where a Word >doesn't fit its wearer well. But he *must* promote it: it's a part >of him, just like being the Angel of Catchy Tunes is a part of Tomas. >If the urge to promote one's Word is *that* strong, that pleasurable, >to someone who isn't a Superior, how much stronger must it get to >one who is? That's the thing. Druiel, as far as I can see here, ***hates*** his Word. He does what he does strictly from a sense of higher duty to God; he gains no pleasure at all from his efforts. In this case, I believe his continuance in serving Teenage Death is more a Seraphic trait than a Worded trait. Tomas, on the other hand, loves his Word, and spends much of his time promoting it because he enjoys it. Promoting his Word appears to be a secondary concern to his joy in the Word itself. To make one more example of the Austin Celestial clique, Lauren is an example of a Worded demon who promotes her Word agressively- even desperately- but lives in continual fear that someone will discover how weak she really is for a Worded Celestial. If Word Forces were in play here, this is something she would not need to worry about. >>>(That seems to be a potential theme in IN -- a loss of a certain >>>amount of Free Will for Power. A voluntary surrender to "something >>>greater" in exchange for glory. A forsaking of everything you ever >>>were, in exchange for Free Will above all. Maybe the Lilim's >>>TANSTAAFL is applicable in more metaphoric ways. >>> >>I look on these themes more in a political sense than a metaphysical sense. >>Each Worded Celestial promotes and defends their Word as their power base, >>and Worded Demons actively seek to subsume other Words into their own. In >>order to attain a Word, the Celestial must be predisposed towards aspects of >>that Word beforehand. Afterwards, they may change to more closely mirror >>their Words, but these changes are caused by choices and actions taken in >>promoting and defending those Words, not by the nature of just being bound >>to those Words. > >I believe that it is *both*. Assign a Word that is not one the >celestial is already interested in and able to cope with, and you're >likely to get weird synergy effects. And yes, different Celestials >can probably put different spins on the concept -- they are sentient, >still, and have free will -- but they're still Avatars. There is a difference in choosing to advocate a position and having the position choose you, which is my main point in all this. In my view, the Celestial controls their Word, not the other way around. >Actually, *do* look at the difference between the *old* Princes and >the younger ones. (Or Laurence and the rest of the AAs, for that >matter.) The older the being, the more it reflects its Word, from >what I can see. In part, this is more because the older, first-gen Celestials were created by God with a specific job to do. Even so, many of these early Celestials did not have their current Word until -after- the Fall. Michael seems to me to be the greatest example: how can you be Archangel of War if the concept has not yet been introduced into the universe? With those Demon Princes who were Archangels before the Fall, their old Words were turned and twisted into their own selfish interpretation. Andrealphus, who I am guessing was Love beforehand, could have chosen something like Obsession, or another word which accentuated the selfish aspects of the emotion love. Instead, he chose to focus on the physical expression of love, and twist it to its selfish aspects, and became Lust. Beleth, Archangel of Fear, passed up the much looser option of Demon Princess of Fear to focus strictly on her vendetta against her former lover, chosing instead the word of Nightmares. Kobal, the Archangel of Laughter, passed over Hysteria for Dark Humor. In each case, the Princes chose to pass over an aspect of their old Word to focus on one specific part. As one final point, David, the Archangel of Stone, focuses on one or two very specific aspects of his Word- the strength and durability of the substance. The fact that some stone crumbles at a touch, or washes away with a hard rainfall or a stiff wind, doesn't appeal to his own inner agenda, which is to test and refine humanity to the achieve the closest parallel to his own concept of strength. Masonry and sculpture are at best secondary concerns to him, and volcanoes totally outside his demesnes- he leaves these aspects of stone to other Archangels, even though he could quite justifiably claim supremacy over them. If Michael managed to catch up to Andre and lop off >a few important parts, even if Lucifer assigned another Impudite to >the title and Word, there would probably be a periord of time where >the new Prince just wasn't as much Lust incarnate as Andre was, or >put a slightly different spin on it. Any different Celestial would put a different spin on Lust; this is a case of individual differences and not necessarily seniority. >>It is perfectly -possible- to have a Word and not reflect it in oneself, but >>Celestials who have taken this approach are seldom successful. (Fleurity >>comes to mind as one of the rare successes- the Demon Prince of Drugs is >>possibly the most sober being in Hell shy of Kronos.) > >Fleurity is living in his own "Trip" -- he's a Habbalite... Also, >there's nothing that *I* see in the writeup that says one way or >the other -- except that he's a rising star, so if he *is* indulging >in his own wares, he's not being incapacitated by them. Which may >just mean that he's not able to get addicted to them. (Maybe gaining >power in the Symphony is the Addictive part!) Point- I had confused Fleurity with Belial, in thinking that it was Dissonant for Servitors of Drugs to actually suffer their effects. Redneck Kris Overstreet, web pages beyond belief http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/milkmaid/ - The Magnificent Milkmaid ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:38:27 EDT From: MarkDEddy Subject: Re: IN> Right of Passage and Choir/Band Attunements In a message dated 5/21/98 10:01:13 AM, emccoy@nh.ultranet.com writes: (Referring to Pyramid...) >Some of >it may be that "fuzzy canon" that has a cool name I keep forgetting. > Deutero-Canonical, or possibly Apocryphal. (Characters and Adventures would be Apocrypha, New Rules would be Deutero- Canonical, if we followed the 'traditional' conventions.) > >--emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor >GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ > Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 23:01:05 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Summoning Superiors On Thu, 21 May 1998, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > Of course I agree that the result of a direct battle between Superiors > is enormous and bad. However, there are enough archangels who are willing > to tolerate the fallout that results that it is a very dumb move for a > summoned Demon Prince to leave angels alone long enough to call on their > own Superior. My whole argument is predicated on the notion that most > Superiors *don't want* a direct confrontation with another Superior. Why not just leave? There's nothing that keeps the Superior there after it's been summoned. If it suspects that the opposition will try to summon their own Superior, it could just pop back home and let its incompetent underlings get out of trauma by themselves. :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! "Jag har känsla för feeling" - Dom Dummaste ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 17:18:11 -0400 From: Robb Kidd Subject: Re: IN> Historical plots & time travelling celestials From the terminal of Walter Milliken: > Historical plots are tricky, anway, since you don't want to invalidate > future events. [...] I've been thinking about ways to > get around this -- we'll probably want to do some canon historical stuff > for PC adventures at some point. But I can't see doing Legion, though > maybe something from just after, cleaning up, might work well. Heh. Fishing the pig bits out of the lake, then? You could also set up historical games for the PCs to influence something behind the scenes. Playing modern day, there is much that is Doubtful and Uncertain. If, as GM, you've filled in some of those details, but the players have not gained such knowledge, t'would be quite a satisfying session to play in the past and have some light cast in the shaded areas. Were it a time-traveling sort of thing, players would return to the present ... and realize they know why Dominic operates the way he does. Or some such. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 17:29:04 -0400 From: Robb Kidd Subject: Re: IN> The Superior Question Walter Milliken wrote: > > Maintaining cold war posture was important enough > >to Hell to make it join forces with Heaven and turn against Legion. > > Possibly, but I think Legion's spectacular growth in power was what > scared the Princes into cooperating. There's also the perspective that Legion had the potential to "assimilate" humanity, the prize, according to some, over which Heaven and Hell are fighting. The upstart needed to be removed from the game before he trundled off with the trophy. This perspective works especially well if you operate Hell's selfishness in a fashion similiar to what C.S. Lewis presents in _The Screwtape Letters_. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 17:54:14 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> When To Summon, When They Appear This is so huge that I've snipped ruthlessly to make it a bearable length. There are a lot of good points that I cut simply because my response to them is similar to another point. >From: Elizabeth McCoy > >Don't have them confronting Princes every session! Or if they >*do*, then kill their vessels and put them in Trauma for a while. >(Obviously the Prince was busy elsewhere and wanted to get back >to that hot date with Lilith or something.) Maybe strip a Force >off as a warning. Er, it seems clear that I'm not being clear. Okay, the problem I see is that: a) Superiors are so easy to summon that it seems very likely that will be called in relatively frequently. b) Superiors are so strong that they can trivially obliterate the vessels of whole groups of PCs. This means that there is strong pressure to call in a Superior just as soon as the Big Moment comes. And then things are out of the PCs' hands. >>>(Though it *does* take 2 rounds to summon -- if you can *stop* the >>>person before they finish, well, that danger is averted.) >> >>The trouble is that this applies to Princes too -- if they show >>up and see a PC summoning his archangel, it's basic sense to >>stomp the angel before it finishes. > >True. This is why it's a good idea to hide under a car while you do it. This raises an interesting question -- how much space and freedom of movement do you need to summon a superior? Can you do it if you are gagged and bound? Can you do it underwater in scuba gear? But will a Prince really fail to notice the angel under the sofa, trying to summon Michael? Maybe what you need to do is to leave someone back at the base, and send a message (via Celestial Tongues or a pager) to call in a Superior like an artillery strike... >Your boss is going to start wondering why he sends you on these >important missions if you're just going to call for help at the >endgame. If he wanted you to do this, he'd say, "Get to the goal, >then call me." (Yes, this means that GMs should *not* get into >the habit of portraying Superiors as ordering the PCs in over >their heads in the normal run of events.) I am sure that archangels understand tactics at least as well as their Servitors do. It's too late to call an AA for help once a Prince is already there. If I don't call a Superior and you do, then I lose completely. Since this reasoning is symmetric for both sides, both sides have a very powerful incentive to call on a Superior, just as soon as the perceived stakes of the contest are bigger than the cost of distracting the superior. (Incidentally, I just realized that this also tends to force characters towards arranging a moment of decision, to maximize the effect of the superior appearance.) Favored servitors like the PCs presumably have a good idea of the cost of the AA's time, and are more likely to get big missions of high importance. >>Offing one or two a round is gameable -- I just don't think that >>this is current canon. > >I think current canon assumes that PCs aren't going to hang >around to duke it out with a Superior. *sigh* Much of the time PCs can't retreat. A cherub guarding someone; any servant of Michael; any Malakim or angels of David who can't abandon their friends -- the list goes on and on. Many of the angels I've seen proposed as PCs would sooner face soul- death than abandon *anyone* to a Prince, and nearly all of the rest will not abandon fellow angels merely to save themselves. They get the halos for a reason. :) Demons mostly don't have this problem, but whether they escape or not depends on whether or not the archangel thinks that the Essence expenditure is worth putting a few demons out of the action for a few days. (I have an image of a Calabite blasting through a wall rather than taking the extra second to open the door, just to get away, and David laughing at his retreating back.) >He's only one vessel, though. It might take him a *little* while >to go through them. And if it takes more time to soul-kill them >than to just vessel-kill them, and he wants to get rid of the >threat of summoning an Archangel, then he won't spend the time >ripping their Forces away. He'll drop them into Trauma. I see a point of possible confusion: I've been talking about Trauma all along, rather than soul-killing. As an upper bound, an ordinary celestial vessel is as strong as a tank. I think a being of vast cosmic power can destroy whole armor brigades without too much trouble. (The bit in the IPG about Princes being able to kill whole armies of their Servitors reinforces this.) But even being able to put all the angels into Trauma instantly is a bad thing, since it will turn confrontations into a crapshoot. I think things are better served if what happens is largely dependent on stuff that PCs can affect. This means it's a good idea either to make Superiors harder to get ahold of or to make the PCs strong enough to survive them. (I've chosen the former for my game, since it's easier to implement.) >If two of them are summoning at once...? If one ran to a safer place >when he noticed the demon in the back yelling for help? (Of course, >if it's just a single celestial and an enemy Superior, that celestial >is nigh unto toast. Such is life.) If the Prince can only take out 1 or 2 PCs a round (by whatever means), then you've got a chance. It's going to be really bloody for you, but nobody said the job was going to be easy. :) >And there's the other thing that Superiors can do -- take Servitors >hostage. Even the Archangels might do this from time to time, to >do exchanges of prisoners. (Lilith is particularly likely to do >things like this, on the demonic side. Novalis will probably >accept surrender, though you spend your captivity sitting with >restraints in a Flowers Tether and being Peace-and-Love'ed at.) Baal, too, I think -- ten minutes with him and you'll *want* to Fall. Balseraph demon princes are scary things. Adventure seed: Baal vaporizes a party, all except for one angel, who he kidnaps. The angel is of course rescued in a high-FX budget "escape from Hell" rescue sequence. The adventure starts when the PCs have to figure out what little time bombs Baal has left in the angel's mind? (This would make a good scenario for a group of Dominic's agents.) - -- Neel Krishnaswmai neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 98 18:01 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Historical plots & time travelling celestials >Indeed, indeed, although GURPS Time Travel has all sorts of advice about >dealing with that sort of thing that could be applied to an IN game that >went running amuck up and down the timeline. Yes, but they all take *work*.... I'm definitely a lazy GM. >> I've been thinking about something like this, but I've got no >> desire to start up another campaign right now.... > >How many are you running already? Two (sort of -- they intersect a bit) IN campaigns, plus several GURPS ones, some of which are on hold for a while. I don't really want another entirely new context to try to keep track of.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 18:34:13 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Lilith >>>I found this when I was discussing backgrounds with someone who is playing one IMG. Even allowing for a few extra geases to pay for rent in Shal-Mari, having been set up by more experienced demons, and the odd trinket, a free lilim will tend to come out ahead and only have to work when it feels like it. Especially when you add in the fact that they tend to be well trained in bargaining so will often come out ahead in deals with other demons (I've been assuming that princes who want to hire the lilim to do some work on earth will include a vessel as part of the deal, or maybe haggle for a month of service instead of a week in return for the vessel -- still not an overwhelming price to pay).<<< Yup. That's why I disagree with the canonical version of Lilith as "Protector of all Lilim." I _do_ treat Lilith as the least powerful of all Superiors. Yes, she has lots of Geases she could pull in to harass a Prince (or to a lesser extent, an Archangel) who ticks her off, but if any Prince or Archangel _really_ gets pissed off at her....ashes to ashes, Lilith to dust. So Lilim cannot really expect much protection from "Mom." The degree to which other Superiors will avoid "abusing" Lilim is only the degree to which they like having Lilim in their service or find it advantageous to continue doing business with Lilith. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 00:50:25 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> When To Summon, When They Appear On Thu, 21 May 1998, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > Favored servitors like the PCs presumably have a good idea of the cost > of the AA's time, and are more likely to get big missions of high > importance. They're also supposed to be able to take care of themselves without coming running to the Boss every time things get a bit hairy. There are crises going on -all the time-, and if the Supes had to deal with each and every one of them personally, they'd never get anything important done. > >I think current canon assumes that PCs aren't going to hang > >around to duke it out with a Superior. *sigh* > > Much of the time PCs can't retreat. > > A cherub guarding someone; any servant of Michael; any Malakim or angels > of David who can't abandon their friends -- the list goes on and on. For these it's not a question of being -unable- to retreat. It's a choice between Trauma and taking some dissonance. Not exactly a win-win situation, but there's still a choice. > This means it's a good idea either to make Superiors harder to get > ahold of or to make the PCs strong enough to survive them. (I've > chosen the former for my game, since it's easier to implement.) Or make the Supes less interested in blasting the PCs. A Supe doesn't have to manifest in a vessel - it can just be a voice in the summoner's head, or something else. Nybbas might possess a nearby TV set, David might speak through the grinding of the bricks in the building, Yves could communicate through writing on a wall, Janus might simply be a voice in the wind. Another solution is to make it less attractive to summon your Superior. If it wasn't a -really- vital situation, that the characters had absolutely - -no- way of handling without help, it might show up, solve their problem... and then strip them of a Force each. Or let them know, in no uncertain terms, that the next time they summon it without a -very- good reason - say, averting the Apocalypse, or the return of Legion - they will be given some less stressful duties for a couple of centuries. Like making the grass grow. (If you want to make sure your players understand you can say "If you summon David again your character will be gone. Capiche?") I really don't think this is a problem that requires rules-changes, unless you absolutely want the Supes to be really intent on destroying opposing Celestials without a second thought - an attitude I don't think meshes well with what's described in the various books and fiction pieces. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! "Jag har känsla för feeling" - Dom Dummaste ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 18:54:19 EDT From: MarkDEddy Subject: Re: IN> Lilith, Free Lilim, geasa In a message dated 5/21/98 10:26:15 AM, neel@cswv.com writes: >All this makes me wonder what the game looks like to a believer. >Anyone want to explain it to me? :) > Having read Earl's post, I'll agree with him to a certain extent, in that In Nomine does to Theology what Star Trek does to Physics. On the other hand, from a literary point of view it looks like a translation of French anti-Catholic satire which the Americans took too literally. Look at the Archangels; as a group they mostly have either Catholic Saints' names (Dominic, Laurence, Yves, Christopher, Jean, David as a special case), or 'historical' Angelic names (Gabriel, Michael, Zadkiel). The Saint/Archangels are cruel parodies. St. Dominic was a teacher and reformer. AA Dominic is a Paranoid judge. St. Laurence became a saint after he gave up the sword. AA Laurence revels in combat. And so forth. The 'big four' archangels are equally frustrating. Gabriel is crazy and associated with fire rather than messages. Michael, whose name means "Who is [or: can be] like God?" has been tried for treason, and given up command of the armies of heaven. Uriel has been recalled due to excesses, when traditionally he is associated with the Cardinal Virtue of Temperance. Finally, Rafael, the Archangel with the best description in the Bible (Apocrypha, in particular) is dead, do not pass Go do not collect two hundred dollars. Janus is the Roman god of change (among other things), Novalis means "The new one," and I only see the first five letters of Blandine's name. But I'm not bitter. In Nomine at least *tries* to address the sweeping theological and personal issues of monotheism, a refreshing change from the 'God of the Week Club' fantasy role playing games or the "Atheism 'R' Us" science fiction role playing games or the "Why worry about an afterlife?" horror role playing games. I can name (perhaps) four systems which even come close to matching my most basic, stripped down theology. They are: Fantasy War-gaming (nearly impossible to play), Ars Magica (whose Grog/Mage system is annoying), In Nomine (which is fun to play), and The Rapture (which I haven't had a chance to carefully work with). Guess where my money and effort are going in role playing games. Mark (Done ranting now, honest...) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:03:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Knop Subject: Re: IN> Historical plots & time travelling celestials > Yes, but they all take *work*.... I'm definitely a lazy GM. Heh heh. Well, there's something to be said for that. > >How many are you running already? > > Two (sort of -- they intersect a bit) IN campaigns, plus several GURPS > ones, some of which are on hold for a while. I don't really want > another entirely new context to try to keep track of.... Man alive! Are these all FTF (i.e. real life) campaigns? Different groups? Do you work? :) (I run 4 slow-moving PBEMs, and it's about all I could ever hope to keep up with.) If I ever do the time travelling celestials bit, I'll probably do it as a single adventure in an existing campaign. (The members of the as-yet-to-get started INB campaign can scratch their heads at this one.) - -Rob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 17:30:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions - ---Simon Hailes wrote: > > Yet another round of casting has beeen finished, and boy oh boy has it > been difficult, nethertheless (is that right?) I have finally assigned for > the roles of Kronos, Malphas and Nybbas. > > Kronos-Douglas Bradley, He's already played a Demon Prince in Hellraiser > (oh yeah look out for my Hellraiser/In Nomine crossover soon!) and he syas > cool things like 'I'll tear your soul apart!' > > Malphas-Hmmm, well, why not Robert DeNiro, especially in Cape Fear, > although I'm sure Bart Simpson could do just as good a job! > > Nybbas-Alex Tribeck, what? he's already on Jeopardy, and manages to appear > on all sorts of other shows, if not him, then who? (I thought David > Letterman but then I figured it out he was most probably just a servitor). Lilth: Selma Hayek Saminga: Rutger Hauer..he's a great villain! Valefor: The guy that played the monk and the Game hunter on Dragonheart and The Lost World Vapula: Christopher Llyod _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 17:31:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: IN> Demon Prince Auditions- the list! Hey SImon, send us the entire list so far...I got in nomine players who want to read the list! :) Graveyard Greg, Malakite of Creation _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 23:10:41 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN> Tether Ready for Construction! At 05:29 AM 21/05/98 -0700, you wrote: >OK, I remember Titus willing to help me make a tether, but who was the >other guy? Make yourself heard! Send me an email! > >Graveyard Greg, Forgetful Malakite of Creation > > > > >_________________________________________________________ >DO YOU YAHOO!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > >That was me, what do you want me to do? Simon > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 10:19:15 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Summoning Superiors >>(Don't think so? Imagine a Superior-level Song of Ethereal Motion. Add >>half-a-dozen steak knives. Six dead PCs. Instantly. If there are more >>PCs, bring along more steak knives.) >Uh-uh... there's nothing I remember that suggests that Ethereal Motion >includes MIRV capability. Either all those knives go to the same >target, or you need multiple actions to direct them. Hence superior level version of the song, maybe? Baal can do all that _and_ let off a few rounds from his unholy sub-machine gun _and_ swipe a few PCs off their feet (literally) with the razor-edge of his tail _and_ deliver a highly plausible recruitment peptalk simultaneously; which a cynical observer might consider to be overkill but hey, they were going to die in any case and if you're going to go you might as well go out with a bang ;) I'm reminded of those high level AD&D fighters who could take out 14 kobolds in a round.. I always wondered how. Alternatively, use a superior level of the ethereal song of harmony first -- then take them out one at a time. Maybe Baal even teaches that attunement to his allies... who knows? ie. I think multiple opponents shouldn't in itself be a problem to a superior as currently written, unless they are high powered. This is all a bit academic, of course. I'd think most sane angels would react to the arrival of a demon prince by legging it (similarly for demons & archangels), and unless they had a really solid reason to stop them, most princes would let them go and then get a full debrief from the hapless summoner. If the simple fact of its being there is enough to resolve the immediate situation then why should it exert itself more than that? Only the most warlike or malakite of superiors would aggressively kill any opposition in sight just for the heck of it. IMO. Sometimes its actually better for morale to let the opposition flee in terror from the sight of you and live to tell the tale. jo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:44:22 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine, a Sam Peckinpah Film (or, Killing Superiors for Fun and Prophet) On Thu, May 21, 1998 at 02:27:11PM -0500, Redneck Gaijin wrote: > Point- I had confused Fleurity with Belial, in thinking that it was > Dissonant for Servitors of Drugs to actually suffer their effects. > This is a very small point, but the Fire dissonance is quite clearly a metaphorical extension of the Calabite dissonance. Servitors of Fire take dissonance from being burned by their own fire. Calabim take dissonance from absorbing backlashed (no, not failed, backlashed) resonance rolls. Belial's Word seems to function as the Word of being a Calabite, and he and his Servitors certainly indulge in that aspect of themselves. As for Druiel, I have maintained and will maintain that Druiel is perverting his Word, rather than promoting it. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "If you let it get too far it would be the end of everything. You would have bicycles wanting votes and they would get seats on the County Council and make the roads far worse than they are for their own ulterior motivation." The Third Policeman, by Flann O'Brien. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #792 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.