From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Jun 5 15:41:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA20586 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 15:41:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id PAA23597 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 15:42:58 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 15:42:58 -0500 Message-Id: <199806052042.PAA23597@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #810 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, June 5 1998 Volume 01 : Number 810 In this digest: Re: IN> Re: IN- Plot device Re: IN> Word Forces Re: IN> Kyrios of Jean and going celestial Re: IN> Word Forces Re: IN> Re: IN- Plot device Re: Word Forces (was Re: IN> Placing credit) Re: Word Forces (was Re: IN> Placing credit) Re: Word Forces (was Re: IN> Placing credit) Re: IN> Kyrios of Jean and going celestial Re: Word Forces (was Re: IN> Placing credit) Re: IN> Kyrios of Jean and going celestial Re: IN> Re: IN- Kyrios of Jean and going celestial IN> IN Campaign Seed: The Third Avatar ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 18:32:59 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Plot device At 13:19 05/06/98 -0700, you wrote: > > > >> Oh BTW, Happy 150th aniversry of the Communist Manifesto. >> >> Regards, Peter. > >You're celebrating the anniversary of one of the most self-destructive >philosophies ever to come out of a drunken stupor? Have you read it, before you condemn it? jo "Whatever was required to be done, the Circumlocution Office was before hand with all the public departments in the art of perceiving HOW NOT TO DO IT." -- Dickens (Little Dorrit) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 13:01:45 -0500 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Word Forces Initial message read: > > >I'm not sure I like Word Forces - it upsets the nice balance of the > Forces, I think. What is it in a word that's beyond the Corporeal, > Ethereal and Celestial? I'm not sure the benefits of Word Forces is worth > upsetting that balance. Couldn't the greater power of Word-bound > Celestials be modelled in some other way? Attunements only available to > Word-bounds perhaps? "You can store X extra Essence" where X depends > on how strong the Word is in the world. Different attunements for the > creation of Vessels, granting of Rites, and so on.< > David Edelstein wrote in response: > This is more in line with what I'd like to see for the Word-bound -- give > them special attunements and extra reserves of Essence that they can call > upon. A Word-bound with a very powerful Word might not have all that many > Forces, but when the PCs take him on, they discover that he _does_ have a > hundred points of Essence socked away for emergencies like them.... adding > Essence management rules is more complex than Word Forces, but (I think) > more elegant, and much more customizable. tom here, and I agree with the above. To para-quote the Bene Gesserit of _Dune_: The tripod is the most stable of forms and to be preferred when there is any option. Corporeal-Etherial-Celestial Forces make a stable triangle and are congruent to the western ideas of Body-Mind-Soul. What would Word Forces be comparable to? What lies within a player's understanding that they can use to give them a leg up on roleplaying a decidely non-human character with such an attribute? Attunements can at least be modeled on browser plug-ins or the titles and powers one encounters in the workplace. Besides, if we set a precedent for going from non-Word Bound to Word Bound by adding Word-Forces, then what gets added when you make the jump from Word Bound to Superior? Remember, the precedent has been set -- quantum jumps in power are handled by adding an extra dimension, a new type of Force to the Celestial. IMO, it is much less complicated to say that the Celestial being hyped has his/her Security Clearance "opened up" to allow access to Goodies that were previously restricted -- the Celestial wasn't cleared to access the Goodie [Song, Attunement, etc...] before. The Goodie was still there, could still be used by others who _did_ have access -- all without having to disassemble the Tinker-toy triangle of Forces that make up the Celestial and rebuilding it as a square. Better by far that they should be given yet another Key to the Kingdom, either Divine or Infernal, to use and be held accountable for. My apologies for getting long-winded about what started out as a me-too post. tom timberlake, cadre Cherub of Heaven ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 98 14:42 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Kyrios of Jean and going celestial > If the vessel can take with it a few pounds of personal >items (this is the more standard interpretation), I thought this was actually the canon interpretation -- I ssem to recall something about 10*Celestial Forces pounds.... > then the vessel >and the clothes but NOT the phone vanishes. Why is this? Because, >at that moment, the phone is a _vessel_ and can't be jerked around >like that. If you substitute 'mouse' for 'phone' it might be >clearer. I think I'd go with the "phone vanishes, Kyrio ejected, film at 11" interpretation, myself. For one thing, Kyrios could use this to be even *more* annoying than they already are -- think about possessing the victim's clothes, for example. Or a mundane weapon. > Here's a question (esp. to Beth and the rest of >the brain-trust). What do you think should happen when a >Kyrio of Jean tries to use an _artifact_ as a vessel? My >take is that they _can_ do it, but it requires a number of >forces equal to the highest level of the artifact. If the >artifact has a Will, then a resistance roll is possible by >the artifact. If the artifact is being held/wielded/worn, >then the owner can spend either his own Essence or the >Essence of the artifact (if any) to resist the invasion >attempt. That all seems reasonable. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 98 14:57 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Word Forces >This is more in line with what I'd like to see for the Word-bound -- give >them special attunements and extra reserves of Essence that they can call >upon. Well, right now, Forces *are* where Essence is stored, at least for celestials. And so far, that's about all Word-forces are good for, in my thinking, except to add some color to the qualitative difference between Word-bound and regular celestials. About the only other thing they'd do is make Word-bound a bit noiser and more obvious when going celestial -- which side-effects appeal to me, actually. > adding >Essence management rules is more complex than Word Forces, but (I think) >more elegant, and much more customizable. Well, I don't find it more elegant, *especially* if it's more complex. And it suffers the same problem as *any* change we make to how typical Word-bound work -- all the published ones don't have the extra attunements/Essence reserve/whatever. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 14:55:17 -0700 From: "Gerry Mckelvey" Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Plot device - ---------- > From: Jo Hart > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Plot device > Date: Friday, June 05, 1998 10:32 AM > > At 13:19 05/06/98 -0700, you wrote: > > > > > > > >> Oh BTW, Happy 150th aniversry of the Communist Manifesto. > >> > >> Regards, Peter. > > > >You're celebrating the anniversary of one of the most self-destructive > >philosophies ever to come out of a drunken stupor? > > Have you read it, before you condemn it? > > > jo yep. Know you're enemy...economics written by a man who never worked a day in his life...facinating system, but Carl got alot of people thinking about a bad idea. Then they got to killing about 6 or 7 million folks in russia..not to mention the enviro damage! I think it'd make a great In Nomine plot line (or historical point...). It's got self delusion, arrogance, rejection of any moral structure...Machevelli would've been proud. All in the name of 'the people'....heh. Lucifier would laugh his self silly.... more honest thieves just kill thier victims and don't bother with preaching at them before buring them in that unmarked grave in the Ukraine... Jerry McKelvey Exitus Acta Probat. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 98 15:16 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: Word Forces (was Re: IN> Placing credit) >I'm not sure I like Word Forces - it upsets the nice balance of the >Forces, I think. What is it in a word that's beyond the Corporeal, >Ethereal and Celestial? It's the abstract theme in the Symphony that is the Word. Or something like that... color isn't my strong point. The three existing Forces are essentially "personal" -- they give the strength of the character in each of the three realms. Word Forces would indicate the strength of the character's connection to his Word, and/or the strength of the Word itself. Think about it this way -- regular celestials have a connection to each of the three realms, defined by their Forces for that realm. Word-bound are qualitatively different, having an additional connection to a specific theme of the Symphony, represented by their Word Forces. Word Forces would also strengthen a celestial -- they're somewhat harder to soul-kill, since their Word Forces will help absorb celestial damage. I think that makes sense -- if you're tied tightly to some aspect of the Symphony, it helps support your existance. > I'm not sure the benefits of Word Forces is worth >upsetting that balance. Couldn't the greater power of Word-bound >Celestials be modelled in some other way? But all methods suffer from needing to change pre-existing Word-bound to conform, or the existing Word-bound must be declared weak or atypical. I don't think either of those options is desirable. If we're going to change something, I'd like to opt for something relatively simple. > Attunements only available to >Word-bounds perhaps? Those must exist -- logically one of them is the ability to grant your Word attunements to others, since that appears to be one of their few additional powers that is exclusive to Word-bound. > "You can store X extra Essence" where X depends >on how strong the Word is in the world. That's what I was using Word Forces for, mostly. Forces are already the canonical way that celestials store Essence. I have some mechanics problems with an attunement with a wildly-varying effectiveness, based on what Word you happen to have. With the Word Forces concept, your number of Word Forces is *bounded* by the power of the Word, but your connection to it (and therefore your personal power) can grow slowly over time -- it's not a quantum leap. Of course, you *could* be granted a large number of Word Forces when you are first given your Word; this is akin to what happens when someone is elevated to Superior status. In other words, I'm leary of any mechanism for gaining a Word that potentially produces greap leaps in character power -- I don't like singularity points much, at least for PCs. (Elevation to Superior is a different can of worms, and one I hope IN never needs to cover....) > Different attunements for the >creation of Vessels, granting of Rites, and so on. I don't think Word-bound can (or should) create vessels, unless maybe their Word somehow implies that. (I can't think of how that might happen, but it may be possible.) Granting of Word-specific rites is probably another automatic attunement of Word-bound -- this is hinted at in the core book. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 98 15:44 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: Word Forces (was Re: IN> Placing credit) [jo:] >I don't much care for introducing something new which requires so much >reworking of old stuff, myself. I'd rather see a range of word-bound/ >superior effects that have to be rolled at a huge penalty and/or have a >minimum forces requirement to pull off, and scads more things for >word-bound to spend cps on (such as more competent servitors, the ability >to be summoned etc ;) ). There are several problems -- one is that most of the existing Word-bound in canon aren't really significantly more powerful than PCs are likely to reach (i.e., about the 12 Force level), so anything we do has to differentiate them from "ordinary" celestials by more than the existing stats. You could put in a bunch of attunements that are restricted to Word-bound, but it's not clear to me how much this makes sense, except for those things that are directly related to their own Word (e.g., gaining Word-related rites and special personal attunements) or having a Word (e.g., the ability to pass on those rites and attunements to others). Another issue is that most of these kinds of effects are currently handled by attunements, and attunements often are automatic (or based on a simple stat roll) -- rarely is there any significant penalty. >I also think the power of the thing is less interesting than the politics. >Once you are word-bound (or even given a rank) you're into a whole new >political ball-park -- I think it'd be a real shame to focus on the >mechanics and ignore that. Agreed! No, this Word Forces thing is a minor mechanic tweak -- most of the effects of becoming Word-bound should be related to personality and politics. Someday we're going to need more canon on this -- I don't think the stuff in the APG and IPG is really enough to cover the topic as well as it deserves. I mostly want Word Forces to help explain various aspects of the IN universe that are already canon, but don't have any clear mechanism behind them. This includes issues like "why are Superiors so powerful?" (they have lots of Word Forces, and thus lots of Essence to play with) and "why is promoting your Word important?" (for demons especially -- with Word Forces, it's obvious that's the way to increase your personal power). I also like the idea that a being's power/effect on the Symphony is measured roughly by its total Forces, and it seems fairly clear that following this leads to the conclusion that Superiors should have *lots* of Forces (dozens to maybe a couple hundred, as a ballpark guess -- and no, I *don't* want to quantify them, but I do want to understand roughly how they work...). But if we assume this, and that Superiors are at least an order of magnitude more *personally* powerful than their Servitors, putting Superiors' Forces into "realm Forces" will result in totally ridiculous characteristics. Word Forces solve this problem -- most of a Superior's power is due to their Word, not their "personal" Forces. Note that I don't want Word Forces to become a major separate mechanic - -- we've got about all the mechanics we need for them already, if we simply count them in the various places where "total Forces" are used. There does need to be a slight tweak to handle them for celestial combat, and they would add a bit to the stuff on character rewards, but that's about it. I don't see them affecting use of attunements or Songs, or having attunements or Songs that make use of them; I believe those are the two major areas where the individual Forces come into game mechanics, besides in combat. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 98 15:55 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: Word Forces (was Re: IN> Placing credit) >I don't *want* stats for Superiors. I think it cheapens their >profundity. I've noted this before -- IN writers' policy is that Superiors *shall not be quantified*. However, there will have to be some sort of general agreement between the various writers and editors on roughly what Superiors are and are not capable of, and some rough agreement on general power level, or various canon adventures and vignettes are going to wind up being badly inconsistent. Personally, I would say Superiors *have* stats, but that this is the least of what they are. And those stats will never be published (or probably entirely agreed upon behind the scenes). For my own games, I've been treating Superiors as though they were all 6/6/6 Forces, plus *big* Essence reserves, such that they seem capable of pretty much anything in a single encounter. But their reserves *are* finite, which is one reason they need Servitors -- if they tried to do everything themselves, they *could* run low on Essence. I also postulate that they recharge much faster than regular celestials -- at the moment I am working this into my proposed Tether canon, but I don't know if this will fly. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 15:58:25 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Kyrios of Jean and going celestial Walter Milliken wrote: > > > If the vessel can take with it a few pounds of personal > >items (this is the more standard interpretation), > > I thought this was actually the canon interpretation -- I ssem to recall > something about 10*Celestial Forces pounds.... Found the reference! p.54 Taking Celestial Form. Yes, you are exactly correct. (For some reason I couldn't find it last night... I blame Balseraphs myself...) > > > then the vessel > >and the clothes but NOT the phone vanishes. Why is this? Because, > >at that moment, the phone is a _vessel_ and can't be jerked around > >like that. If you substitute 'mouse' for 'phone' it might be > >clearer. > > I think I'd go with the "phone vanishes, Kyrio ejected, film at 11" > interpretation, myself. For one thing, Kyrios could use this to be even > *more* annoying than they already are -- think about possessing the > victim's clothes, for example. Or a mundane weapon. Anyone that goes celestial with a Kyrio in their shorts is just asking for problems. ;) But seriously, I prefer to treat all vessels identically unless there's an overwhelming reason to treat them otherwise. If you can send a phone vessel into potentiality, why not a mouse vessel? Even better, what about a cat vessel in a little body bag? Somebody _else's_ cat vessel? And, admit it, you'd love the scene where a demon is rousted, escapes into their celestial form, only to leave their underwear hanging in mid-air for a moment before fluttering to the ground. =) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 98 16:10 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: Word Forces (was Re: IN> Placing credit) [Andrew, replying to me:] >> However, I may post little pieces and ask for comments here and there. >> >From the last round of discussion, I got the impression that most of the >> people here favored the concept of Word Forces, at least. > > If that is what the writers in general feel then I would like to go on >record as being against the concept. It's not the writers in general -- this is just a proposal right now, and only Elizabeth and I have really discussed it much. David, as you've probably seen, doesn't like it. So it's far from a "done deal", and comments are welcome. > I see it as an unnecessary mechanic added to a rules light system >that grants you little beside another place to sink character points. It goes well beyond that, but that was the aspect I was discussing, I guess. See my other posts for my other thinking about it. > Word >bound characters can be done with the game system as is without any problems. >They have new and interesting attunements and have many more ways to gain extra >essence. That alone makes them tougher if that is the aim. But they aren't really qualitatively different from "regular" celestials - -- their extra rites and attunements aren't different in power from what a PC might gain from his own Superior, they're just yet more of the same, really, with a different "flavor" to them. Match one of the existing Word-bound to a character with the same number of Forces, Songs, attunements, and rites, and I don't see a whole lot of difference there. My feeling is that the Word-bound ought to be a step up in power from ordinary celestials, just as Superiors are a *big* step up in power. The way it is now, Word-bound seem to me pretty much like other characters, except that their agenda is more self-generated, rather than being dictated mostly by their Superior. > If Word Forces end up being a way to have PCs eat character points then I >think we as GMs are not doing our jobs. Part of our job is to limit characters >so that they stay within range of each other, a single force can be a massive >jump in power for a character (trust me, I've seen it in my game) and a few >forces can be an order of magnitude. It's not *that* big of a difference, though I'll grant you it's substantial. The problem is partly the canon on rewards, which is rather over-generous, in my opinion. But yes, *one* of the things Word Forces are good for is rewards that have somewhat less impact on game balance. > Openning up characters to new >attunements, offering them other options such as NPCs willing to teach them >interesting new songs, and allowing them to purchase artifacts are great ways >to eat character points. Those are all good, but some of this is supposedly player-directed, and if increasing Forces is most beneficial, that's what they're going to go for. A servitor attunement isn't generally going to be as attractive as a Force, but the point cost is equivalent. And I don't think increasing the power of attunements to compete is a good idea. Yes, the GM can dictate rewards, to an extent, but there's going to be a point where it gets too heavy-handed. My own personal opinion is that a) the canon-recommended rewards are roughly twice what they ought to be, and b) Forces and characteristics should be roughly twice as expensive as they are. Fixing both of those would drive down the need for Word Forces as a point sink. However, I'd still be proposing them for other reasons, which I've outlined somewhat elsewhere. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 98 16:19 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Kyrios of Jean and going celestial > Anyone that goes celestial with a Kyrio in their >shorts is just asking for problems. ;) Anyone with a Kyrio in their shorts already *has* problems.... > But seriously, >I prefer to treat all vessels identically unless there's >an overwhelming reason to treat them otherwise. Well, there's vessels, and there's hosts. There *are* some differences.... > If you >can send a phone vessel into potentiality, why not a >mouse vessel? Even better, what about a cat vessel in >a little body bag? Somebody _else's_ cat vessel? What about a regular living creature -- can you take that into potentiality? If not, it's a great cure for head lice.... Following my previous thinking on this, I think I'd say that a *regular* celestial in such a vessel should maybe be forced into celestial form. (One upside to this is that it makes celestials using those annoying small-animal vessels more vulnerable.) >And, admit it, you'd love the scene where a demon is >rousted, escapes into their celestial form, only to >leave their underwear hanging in mid-air for a moment >before fluttering to the ground. =) Not in *my* campaign, I wouldn't.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 98 16:23 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Kyrios of Jean and going celestial >1. It must be a man-made powered device (covers a lot, these days). >This means that things like books and pencils are not covered. Sorry. This means that Kyrios of Jean were totally worthless before this century. Or they had a totally different Choir attunement.... Note that in canon they can't do a whole lot with inflexible objects like pencils -- a KoJ possessing one of those can't write with it. If they possessed a ball-point pen, they could only click it in or out. A book, they could open and riffle pages, but that's about all. So mostly such things are useful only for observation posts. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 16:43:34 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> IN Campaign Seed: The Third Avatar [This is so uncanon (or at least canon doubt and uncertainty) that it will be fuzzy on your screen!] Campaign Seed: The Third Avatar =============================== In Yves' Library, there is a cuniform tablet, documenting the ravings of an ancient human prophet. As is usual for prophecies, the text rambles vaguely and with great melodrama. Roughly translated, it starts, "And at the coming of the one who will be the third avatar, a great house will be divided," goes on with a list of events (in prophet-ese), and ends with, "And the third avatar shall choose." Most humans, these days, would look upon the prophecy as unmitigated drivel, and cliche'ed, too. However, when Raphael stumbled across it in the Library, prophecy was still something interesting. She read it, decided that several of the predictions had already been fulfilled (the Fall, various other events), and happened to mention it to her fellow Archangel, Jean. The pair of Elohim -- the Archangel of Knowledge and the Archangel whose Word encompassed inspiration -- spent a pleasant lazy summer afternoon dissecting the prophecy. They arrived at the conclusion that the Symphony might indeed spawn off self-aware aspects. These aspects, they decided, would have to have been created directly from the Symphony. They would probably be indestructable, with Forces interwoven with the Symphony such that to destroy the avatar would necessitate destroying that part of the Symphony itself. After a lengthy debate (as to whether God was an avatar Itself, a part of the Symphony that was self-aware without being separate, or an entity whose Word _was_, effectively, "the Symphony"), Jean wondered aloud if Yves might be the first Avatar. Raphael said, "Very interesting question. I'll ask him." And, when she did, Yves said, "Yes." Raphael quickly came to the conclusion that the logical second Avatar would be Kronos, Yves' opposite number. Yves confirmed that to her, too, and added that he thought Kronos himself might be unaware of what he was, actually believing himself to be a Balseraph. Raphael then went off and wrote a treatise on the nature of the Symphony, Avatars, and free will, with a little discourse on prophecy thrown in. ("Those who know the future are doomed to repeat it," is the heading of that chapter.) Most of her musings with Jean are included, either as support for the theory or as speculations on the logical conclusions of the avatar premise. One of these is speculations is on whether the third avatar should be used as a Symphonic tie-breaker between Fate and Destiny, or whether that avatar should form the nucleus of a third side in the War. (Elohim like tough questions like that.) In the last section of the manuscript, she mentions that she believes she can determine the identity of the Third Avatar. Any search for the sequal to Raphael's "Avatars, the Symphony, and God" turns up an extensive tactical summary of the battle with Legion -- troop movements, tactics, and a list of the dead. The "Third Avatar" paper died, unwritten, with Raphael. Jean forgot all about such "youthful diversions" as he shouldered many of Raphael's responsibilities. The tablet and her first treatise were buried in the Library, and have not come to light for centuries. Except now they have. Nearing the end of the millennium, the Library seems to be trying to tell somebody something. Someone (like a player character, say) has gotten three different translations of this prophecy (all roughly identical, in various languages) shoved into its hands while looking for something else. Anyone deliberately seeking information on the topic gets it almost instantly. (Including the treatise and the Legion-history with the list of the dead.) And if you play with that "the Third Avatar shall choose" line, you may come to the conclusion that this doesn't necessarily mean "choose between the second and first avatars," but simply "_CHOOSE_." Which might well imply that while Yves is a manifestation of the Symphony's Bright Destiny, and Kronos of its Dark Fate, the hypothetical Third Avatar would be Free Will manifest. (Raphael hinted at this in her document.) There is one Symphony-created individual who seems to embody Free Will, if not entirely in a good way. The Princess of Freedom. Lilith. [As a side note, if you assume the Grigori were created to sire children, and that their mortal descendants are more likely to have 6 Forces, and add in the concept of Lilith as an Avatar herself... Maybe God wanted humanity to be the deciding factor in the War, and not just the prize. The first time the PCs find a fully mortal 7-Force human, maybe they'll think of this...] [As another side-note, yes, Lilith was created before Kronos, and therefore should be *second* avatar. But that doesn't sound as cool, and it wasn't realized till 3rd, etc.] What would Yves say to this idea? "An interesting theory. Have you read these philosophical works?" What about Jean? "Interesting. I remember that discussion. And the Word of Freedom has developed several positive connotations in recent history. I wonder what her Force-configuration looks like..." The Seraphim Council, of course, would have a grand cow. Expect the Inquisition. [If angelic PCs have not yet told the Council in full somehow, nearly all Superiors except for Laurence will insist that the Council _not_ be informed -- because of the Princes' probable reactions, and Lucifer's... They know that putting this before the Council openly will cause massive security leaks.] Cows would also be in evidence among the Princes. (Some of the more paranoid ones might want to destroy anything with that much implicit power. Others would seek to control it.) Second-guessing Lucifer is never a good idea. If the theory is true, then maybe he knew long ago, and that's why he offered her the Word of Freedom in the first place -- he realized that it was hers already, and figured he might as well get the credit. If he didn't know, then he might resume courting her intensely, as he did after the Fall. If her diffident alliance with Hell were strengthened, would Heaven's cause suffer even more than it already has? And Lilith herself? She won't believe a word of it -- even (or especially) if it's presented with the concept that maybe the Best Thing For The Symphony would be to have a third side to the War. She'll praise it as "A good try. Very tempting. And Heaven wouldn't even have to protect me as a defector if I simply went Renegade. Sorry, you're a few millenia too late to catch me with that trick. But it's really quite inspired." She'll also point out that Adam and Eve were created "from scratch," same as her. Of course, she's the one who exercised her Free Will and _left_... Different Superiors will have different takes on the concept. Most do want more information -- the theory, though wild, would have great impact upon the War. Though they do have their different spins... Blandine: She is human, or was, once. Perhaps she has a dreamscape, still -- it has been hidden from me since her crowning as Princess. Perhaps there would be clues there. [Note, oh clever PC, that the Dream Walking attunement says the user must have met the dreamer before, and said dreamer must be in Blandine's realm.] Christopher: You know, Lilith never _had_ a childhood. Hm. No wonder she treats her Daughters like chattel. Oh, right, find out more about this avatar stuff. [Christopher might also report this to the Seraphim Council.] David: A third side? What a horrible concept. The point of the War is to draw humanity to Heaven's side, not make it a side of its own. Still, we'd better find out about it. Much as I hate to say it, we probably can't afford to let Lilith join whole-heartedly with Kronos if this theory is true. Dominic: A third side to the War is rankest heresy, as is the concept that the Eden experiment was intended more to create Lilith as avatar than to settle the matter of free will with Lucifer. However. I cannot see the Truth of this proposal with my resonance, even as I cannot comprehend the Truth of the nature of God. More information is required. Eli: Hey, I've been trying to tell her to leave for centuries! That she's too classy for that joint. She just doesn't believe I'd protect her if she tried. Hm. I guess I haven't brought up that topic for a while. Gabriel: Of course I knew she was the third avatar! I've known it for... [long pause, then a dreamy expression] It's the spark hidden beneath the ash that will ignite everything again. It smoulders until it can burn. Janus: This changes everything! Find out more! Tell her if you find her before I do! Get her to _go_ for it! Oh, but don't get geased. Jean: If I were not so busy, I would open communications with her immediately. Unfortunately, it's not clear where my priorities must lie, yet. Much as I would like to continue Raphael's work in that area, I require more information before I can commit myself to the process of seducing Lilith away from Hell. [pause] Yes, if it were an optimal means of influence, I would mean that word in that way. [pause] What are you waiting for? Find out whether it's likely she's an avatar, and present a report on it. If you get any evidence on the objective use of a third side, be sure to mention that, too. Oh -- and play nice with her girls. We can't afford to antagonize her. Jordi: If it's true, and Lilith is the avatar of Free Will, then she has been entangled in Hell's nets. She no longer listens to her true inner nature. Call her, call her back to the wild and away from the politics she has embraced. Laurence: I expect that this whole third avatar thing is mere speculation, but if there's any truth to it, I'll have to take that into account when planning strategies. Find me some proof, one way or the other. Litheroy: Find out the Truth, of course! [Litheroy would also present this in Council.] Marc: If she wants to leave, I'd certainly assist her there. I've been mentioning I would for, oh, a very long time now. She says she doesn't want to go into that kind of debt. Michael: Another complication, and all sparked by something in Yves' Library. It's likely just some wild goose chase, but if Raphael believed that there was a Third Avatar, we need to know who it is -- or was. Raphael's sacrifice saved my life. Novalis: I told them and told them that it wasn't a good idea to be so unforgiving and rude to her. This avatar thing doesn't surprise me at all. I'd shelter her, if she left Hell -- avatar or not! Yves: A pity Raphael never wrote the second work. I wonder if Lilith ever saw the first treatise? And then there are the Princes... If someone's been talking too freely, or the Seraphim Council has been informed, they'll find out this Third Avatar theory and have their own takes on what to do with the data. Alaemon: Find out the truth and make sure no one else does. _No one._ _Ever._ Andrealphus: Mmmm, I'll ask her myself. Still, play nice with her girls -- it wouldn't do to make her walk off in a snit. Oh, and if there are angels sniffing around her, well, you know what I give Distinctions for. Asmodeus: I have told Lucifer for centuries upon centuries that Lilith is unpredictable and a potential threat to Hell with her whims and petty indulgences. Far better she were chained in Hades, producing Lilim for the Princes. Find proof that she is this third avatar, that she is considering going Renegade to make a third side. Then, finally, she will be mine. Baal: That is information which is tactically vital, especially if there's a chance she might leave Hell's side. Make sure no one convinces her to do that, and report back about this avatar thing. Beleth: There might be clues in her dreamscape, but I have been unable to find it since Lucifer made her a Princess. Still, she is human. She likely sleeps. It would only be a matter of finding where... Belial: This idea came from some prophecy, huh? That's got Gabriel's hot little hands all over it. Find out if it's true, and then break the prophecy -- we'll find out if avatars burn... Fleurity: What a wild trip. Yeah, find out more. I can sell it to someone. Furfur: To control the third avatar? Now that would be power -- if this isn't some angel-hoax. Haagenti: Mmmm, Princess... Need proof, though. Kobal: Now wouldn't that be a joke and a half? Find out the truth, then convince the angels of the opposite. Kronos: Interesting. Find out more. Especially as regards this "indestructable" aspect of the theory. But don't drive her into Yves' control. Malphas: A third side? What an _interesting_ notion. Now, because you're one of my favored Servitors, I want you to encourage this. But make sure you don't push her into _joining_ the angels. Mammon: Information on that would be worth its weight in gold... Nybbas: Oooooo, can you imagine the _ratings_? Get the truth! Get it on film! Get going! Saminga: Avatars cannot die? Ha. Impossible. She is only a human. This is not important, but if there are angels around, you can kill them. Valefor: Whoa, there's a concept. Find out the truth, find out what she's going to do. Steal proof. Give Lilith this necklace if you see her, too, okay? She gave me a hand a while ago. Vapula: This Avatar concept is very fascinating. Perhaps extensive study and experimentation on an avatar would provide more information as to how to control the Symphony. Hm. Her Daughters are made in her image, partake of her nature... Get all the information you can, and pick up a few Lilim while you're at it. Lilith: What unmitigated drivel. I've read better prophecies in the Weekly World News. Don't let any hint of this get out to the other Princes, or they'll be crawling around hoping to pick me off -- and if these angels keep coming around, the other Princes will start to wonder why! Get rid of the featherbrained nuisances. But play nice with anyone who's playing nice with my girls. As an alternate way of finding out, demonic PCs may find themselves speaking to Lucifer himself... The cryptic comment is likely to go something like: "There's some suggestion that Lilith is an avatar of the Symphony. Poke into that, would you? Find out what she thinks. Oh, and watch out for angels." It would be up to the PCs to decide whether to tell there Princes, and up to the GM to decide if the angels have discovered the prophecy yet... Getting to Lilith: This is one of the tricky bits. Mere Servitors (especially angels) don't _really_ want to bother a Princess. And they probably don't want to be geased, either -- but that's not likely to be avoided. Since Lilith herself isn't going to be very helpful, they'll have to find some way to get at the proof (which may not exist). This may mean they do a lot of favors to get information out of Lilith's older, more powerful Daughters. This may mean that they do favors for Lilith herself (who will be happy to get services, even if the provoking factor is this wad of utter bunk). Finding her dreamscape, if it even exists, will probably drag them all over the Far Marches -- or, for Servitors of Dreams or Nightmares, into Lilith's bedroom...? And if they _do_ find proof, somehow, that she's an avatar... how do they convince _her_? Should they? And what do they convince her to _do_ about it? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #810 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.