From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Jun 6 01:36:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA27128 for ; Sat, 6 Jun 1998 01:36:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id BAA04291 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jun 1998 01:35:32 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 01:35:32 -0500 Message-Id: <199806060635.BAA04291@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #811 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, June 6 1998 Volume 01 : Number 811 In this digest: Re: IN> Re: IN- Kyrios of Jean and going celestial Re: Word Forces (was Re: IN> Placing credit) Re: IN> Re: IN- Kyrios of Jean and going celestial Re: IN> Kyrios of Jean and going celestial Re: IN> Re: IN- Kyrios of Jean and going celestial RE: IN> IN Campaign Seed: The Third Avatar Re: IN> Choirness question Re: Word Forces (was Re: IN> Placing credit) IN> Re: Word Forces (was Re: IN- Placing credit) IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- Kyrios of Jean and going celestial Re: IN> Re: IN- Kyrios of Jean and going celestial Re: Word Forces (was Re: IN> Placing credit) Re: IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- Kyrios of Jean and going celestial Re: Word Forces (was Re: IN> Placing credit) Re: IN> Yet another Sorcerer question... Re: IN> Role Levels -- another take Re: Word Forces (was Re: IN> Placing credit) IN> Re: IN- Career Paths for Diabloic Servants (was Re: IN- supporting cast) IN> Re: IN- Undead, Soul Extinction, Essence Mining and Saminga Re: Word Forces (was Re: IN> Placing credit) Re: IN> Yet another Sorcerer question... Re: IN> Role Levels -- another take ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 21:29:54 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Kyrios of Jean and going celestial At 16:23 05/06/98 EDT, you wrote: >>1. It must be a man-made powered device (covers a lot, these days). >>This means that things like books and pencils are not covered. Sorry. > >This means that Kyrios of Jean were totally worthless before this >century. Or they had a totally different Choir attunement.... > >Note that in canon they can't do a whole lot with inflexible objects >like pencils -- a KoJ possessing one of those can't write with it. If >they possessed a ball-point pen, they could only click it in or out. A >book, they could open and riffle pages, but that's about all. So mostly >such things are useful only for observation posts. > I liked the idea of the celestial being forecd into celestial form if someone carrying its vessel went celestial, but what if the vessel was human-sized an dbeing carried over someone's shoulder? I'm afraid I'd be mean to KoJ if I had any IMG. I'd let them possess objects, yes, but the object could not _move_ unless the KoJ sung EthMotion or used the remote control attunement. It is still just an object. (KoJ possessing someone's underpants and then using CelMotion anyone? Its very Hitchhikers...) jo "Whatever was required to be done, the Circumlocution Office was before hand with all the public departments in the art of perceiving HOW NOT TO DO IT." -- Dickens (Little Dorrit) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 98 16:46 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: Word Forces (was Re: IN> Placing credit) >Superiors *are* Word-bound... just on a scale much higher than the >normal "Word-Bound PCs and NPCs". True. Though there's also some other things that distinguish Superiors from regular Word-bound, besides just higher overall power. > This discussion about Word-Bound >and Word Forces grew out of the discussion a week or so ago about >stats for Superiors. Yes and no. It came up in that context, but I've been thinking about it primarily as a "real" stat for regular Word-bound; I have no desire to quantify Superiors to that degree, myself. The person who was doing some list posts on Superior stats used the concept in his stuff, when I mentioned it originally in that context. In other words, there are really two things going on here: - a non-canon attempt to quantify Superiors here on the list by one of the other list members (sorry, I forgot who) - some stuff I'm thinking about as possible future canon for regular Word-bound and mechanisms which might underlie some Superior capabilities, which related somewhat to the first item This division probably hasn't been exactly clear, from the way the discussions have intertwined. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 98 16:57 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Kyrios of Jean and going celestial >I liked the idea of the celestial being forecd into celestial form if >someone carrying its vessel went celestial, but what if the vessel was >human-sized an dbeing carried over someone's shoulder? The 10*CelForces pound limit will keep this from happening -- the person would get left behind under all circumstances, unless they happened to be *really* thin (or a kid). >I'm afraid I'd be mean to KoJ if I had any IMG. I'd let them possess >objects, yes, but the object could not _move_ unless the KoJ sung EthMotion >or used the remote control attunement. It is still just an object. Basically I allow them to do anything Remote Control can do, with the host object they're possessing. A solid object therefore can only be moved by Ethereal Motion or the like. I do have a KoJ in my campaign, and I've allowed it to possess ropes and such and move them around using its strength, since they're flexible. But it couldn't possess a screw and unscrew it, since that would require moving a solid object. I probably wouldn't allow possessing a whole object and trying to remove the screws, either -- that isn't really how the object is supposed to function. But a rope is *supposed* to flex, so I let the KoJ do that. >(KoJ possessing someone's underpants and then using CelMotion anyone? Its >very Hitchhikers...) Then there's the KoJ in Maya's game, who's got the Generator attunement, and apparently has started giving people "electric wedgies".... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 17:06:49 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Kyrios of Jean and going celestial Walter Milliken wrote: > > But seriously, > >I prefer to treat all vessels identically unless there's > >an overwhelming reason to treat them otherwise. > > Well, there's vessels, and there's hosts. There *are* some > differences.... Well... I try to treat them the same, also (except for obvious differences that are outlined in the rules). > > > If you > >can send a phone vessel into potentiality, why not a > >mouse vessel? Even better, what about a cat vessel in > >a little body bag? Somebody _else's_ cat vessel? > > What about a regular living creature -- can you take that into > potentiality? If not, it's a great cure for head lice.... I'd say not. I'm wavering on the concept of diseases, but since I think celestials don't GET diseases (except for specially tailored ones which are a different ball of wax), then it shouldn't matter. > > Following my previous thinking on this, I think I'd say that a *regular* > celestial in such a vessel should maybe be forced into celestial form. > (One upside to this is that it makes celestials using those annoying > small-animal vessels more vulnerable.) Even thought the current canon only allows 10*Cel Forces in pounds, that leaves open the possibility of characters that can take more than that (a perfect new attunement for an advanced servitor of Theft, perhaps). Are we gonna allow character to steal human-sized vessels? Demon of Theft grabs angel's vessel, goes ethereal. Tough luck, angel! Or maybe a Song that reduces the size of something, then it gets stolen... forever! Bwa-ha-ha-ha! Or, for a bizarre reversal, a mouse celestial jumps on a 50lb dog vessel. The mouse goes celestial and the the dog-vessel is lost. And that brings to mind things like object-bound celestial and living artifacts. Do they pop out of existance into a pseudo-limbo if the person carrying them decides to go celestial? Or are they forced into celestial form when this happens? My opinion on those two cases is that a poor sucker that is Bound into a corporeal object probably can't leave the corporeal plane. On the other hand, it makes sense for a living artifact to be able to go wherever the original creature could go (among the planes of reality, that is). Argh, I'm spiralling into far-flung fields, but you get my drift. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 17:04:27 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Kyrios of Jean and going celestial Walter Milliken wrote: > This means that Kyrios of Jean were totally worthless before this > century. Or they had a totally different Choir attunement.... I have generally assumed that, before the last couple of centuries, Jean didn't have much technological side. He was more like David or Gabriel, with a natural/elemental side and a psychological side (intellectual inspiration, in his case). Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 16:05:59 -0500 From: Robert Addy Subject: RE: IN> IN Campaign Seed: The Third Avatar On Friday, June 05, 1998 3:44 PM, Elizabeth McCoy [SMTP:emccoy@nh.ultranet.com] wrote: > [This is so uncanon (or at least canon doubt and uncertainty) that it > will be fuzzy on your screen!] > > Campaign Seed: The Third Avatar > =============================== > ____ major snippage ______ > > --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor > GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ I like this! An incredibly interesting idea! But what if, instead of Lilith being the third avatar, she has the *potential* to be the third avatar? Something like needing to take the position using her own free will to activate the aspect of Lilith as Avatar of Free Will, or somesuch. Then the PC's not only have to track down the truth of the prophecy, but also (if they want Lilith to be the third avatar) convince her to take the job(and from the set-up, having a very hard time of it). Or, conversely, taking other steps to make sure Lilith never becomes the third avatar. Which brings up the possibility that if Lilith doesn't become the third avatar, it will take form somewhere else..... Just a thought And once again, I must say, cool idea! Robert Addy raddy@uh.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 17:31:16 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Choirness question At 10:25 AM +0100 6/3/98, Hart, Joanna wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >>Ask a Servitor of Judgment about the dissonance condition of any >>other Archangel, and they can probably rattle it off by memory. > >They're all GMs! ;) (Isn't there one of the rites in heaven and hell which >lets them get essence for adjudicating at sporting events? Reckon that would >hold for RPGs as well? That puts a whole new light on what those triads do >when they aren't interrogating people ... 'No Fluffiel, you can NOT play >that 21st level paladin with the +5 vorpal sword again!') Hee! Hm. Lemme look it up... Well, that might not be a sporting event, but it would be preventing someone from committing a crime! So it could be a Rite that way!! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 17:35:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: Word Forces (was Re: IN> Placing credit) On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Andrew Frades wrote: > If that is what the writers in general feel then I would like to go on > record as being against the concept. I don't generally comment on things I > don't agree with and/or like. This definitely falls strongly in that > category. I see it as an unnecessary mechanic added to a rules light system > that grants you little beside another place to sink character points. But this would not be some wild, unusual new rule that had to be forced into the system! It'd just be a Force, like the other Forces...easily worked into the system because there wouldn't be any work to DO. It'd provide Word-Bound with extra essence and a little more personal power, in a way that fits into the system elegantly. It's a LOT more elegant than trying to come up with some way to model holding extra essence from a Word with some kind of complex essence management mechanics. > Word > bound characters can be done with the game system as is without any problems. > They have new and interesting attunements and have many more ways to gain extra > essence. That alone makes them tougher if that is the aim. Not really. What's the difference between a 12-Force wordbound with half a dozen attunements (two of them unique) and five RItes (two of them his own) and a 12-Force non-wordbound with half a dozen equally useful attunements and five equally useful Rites (all from his Superior)? NOTHING. The idea is that being Word-bound is a *big deal*...it should be one of those small but quantative jumps. > If Word Forces end up being a way to have PCs eat character points then I > think we as GMs are not doing our jobs. Part of our job is to limit characters > so that they stay within range of each other, a single force can be a massive > jump in power for a character (trust me, I've seen it in my game) and a few > forces can be an order of magnitude. Openning up characters to new > attunements, offering them other options such as NPCs willing to teach them > interesting new songs, and allowing them to purchase artifacts are great ways > to eat character points. I do agree with this 100%. But unless you dictate how ALL chracter points must be spent, some PCs are going to buy up their Forces as fast as they can. This hasn't been a problem yet in my game, but afew a few months, most of the PCs *have* gained a Force...what will keep happening eventually is that they'll all have 18 Forces and then what? Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! | "Fuck 'Em If They Can't Take A Joke is more than just a meaningless | | slogan; it's actually a pretty serious statement, and one that I hold | | true to, with a cream pie in one hand and a chainsaw in the other..." | | -- Me | ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 14:38:07 PDT From: "Bartholomew Hammerly" Subject: IN> Re: Word Forces (was Re: IN- Placing credit) I've considered what you said about doubling the cost for Forces and charactistics. Bang! It is done (at least for my group). >From: Walter Milliken >My own personal opinion is that a) the canon-recommended rewards are >roughly twice what they ought to be, and b) Forces and characteristics >should be roughly twice as expensive as they are. Fixing both of those >would drive down the need for Word Forces as a point sink. However, I'd >still be proposing them for other reasons, which I've outlined somewhat >elsewhere. Bart Hammerly Calabim of Fire "Time is the fire in which we burn." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 14:43:26 PDT From: "Bartholomew Hammerly" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- Kyrios of Jean and going celestial I agree this means Kyrios of Jean attunement was worthless before the advent of "real" technology. But then, quite a few of his attunements share that distinction (no pun intended). The ability to have a computer appear out of nowhere to hook up to the internet strikes me as particularly useless in the 1850's. Jean just moves with the times. Perhaps the old attunement was a ball of lightning that could scry. >From: Walter Milliken >>1. It must be a man-made powered device (covers a lot, these days). >>This means that things like books and pencils are not covered. Sorry. > >This means that Kyrios of Jean were totally worthless before this >century. Or they had a totally different Choir attunement.... > >Note that in canon they can't do a whole lot with inflexible objects >like pencils -- a KoJ possessing one of those can't write with it. If >they possessed a ball-point pen, they could only click it in or out. A >book, they could open and riffle pages, but that's about all. So mostly >such things are useful only for observation posts. Bart Hammerly Calabim of Fire "Time is the fire in which we burn." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 98 18:16 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Kyrios of Jean and going celestial >I have generally assumed that, before the last couple of centuries, >Jean didn't have much technological side. He was more like >David or Gabriel, with a natural/elemental side and a psychological >side (intellectual inspiration, in his case). I've been viewing him as owning the laws of physics and the like (he and Raphael supposedly split duties related to the collection/categorization of knowledge under Yves, in the early days, according to the APG, I think). So Jean has been working on encouraging scientific and technological progress all along, in my view. And there is plenty of scientific and technological progress in earlier centuries -- it just wasn't electrical in nature. So Kyrios of Jean could still possess machines (in the broad sense of the term) of earlier times, though there was probably less they could do with them. Still, things like doors and locks go *way* back, and having the ability to manipulate such things is pretty handy. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 17:19:52 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: Word Forces (was Re: IN> Placing credit) >On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Andrew Frades wrote: > >> If that is what the writers in general feel then I would like to go on >> record as being against the concept. I don't generally comment on things I >> don't agree with and/or like. This definitely falls strongly in that >> category. I see it as an unnecessary mechanic added to a rules light system >> that grants you little beside another place to sink character points. > >But this would not be some wild, unusual new rule that had to be forced >into the system! It'd just be a Force, like the other Forces...easily >worked into the system because there wouldn't be any work to DO. It'd >provide Word-Bound with extra essence and a little more personal power, in >a way that fits into the system elegantly. It would be another Word, more Attributes, more Skills, more rules, more complexity to fix a problem that, IMHO, doesn't exist. >It's a LOT more elegant than trying to come up with some way to model >holding extra essence from a Word with some kind of complex essence >management mechanics. Why should a Word-bound Celestial have extra Essence storage? Besides, its Word provides an extra supply of Essence anyway. >> Word >> bound characters can be done with the game system as is without any problems. >> They have new and interesting attunements and have many more ways to >gain extra >> essence. That alone makes them tougher if that is the aim. > >Not really. What's the difference between a 12-Force wordbound with half a >dozen attunements (two of them unique) and five RItes (two of them his >own) and a 12-Force non-wordbound with half a dozen equally useful >attunements and five equally useful Rites (all from his Superior)? >NOTHING. The idea is that being Word-bound is a *big deal*...it should be >one of those small but quantative jumps. Word-bound IS a big deal. It's a social thing as much as anything else- this Celestial is playing a specific and important role in the greater Plan. Word-bounds are given more responsibility, more benefits, more important jobs, for the simple reason that they -are- Word-bound. >> If Word Forces end up being a way to have PCs eat character points then I >> think we as GMs are not doing our jobs. Part of our job is to limit characters >> so that they stay within range of each other, a single force can be a massive >> jump in power for a character (trust me, I've seen it in my game) and a few >> forces can be an order of magnitude. Openning up characters to new >> attunements, offering them other options such as NPCs willing to teach them >> interesting new songs, and allowing them to purchase artifacts are great ways >> to eat character points. > >I do agree with this 100%. But unless you dictate how ALL chracter points >must be spent, some PCs are going to buy up their Forces as fast as they >can. This hasn't been a problem yet in my game, but afew a few months, >most of the PCs *have* gained a Force...what will keep happening >eventually is that they'll all have 18 Forces and then what? And then, if they haven't been losing Forces here and there to celestial combat or other accidents, or haven't RP'd themselves into asking permission from their Superiors to reproduce, or other factors, then it's time to retire those characters and start again. One approach GMs could, and should, make here is that, even if the players have CPs to spend, they cannot buy Forces except under circumstances where a Superior wishes to give them a *major* reward. After a point, say 12 to 14 Forces, those Superiors may actively pressure those Celestials to choose a Word, or reproduce, or return to Heaven or Hell to take up administrative or training positions, or -something.- The problem is not that Word-bounds have too little power, it's that non-Wordbound PCs are getting too -much.- Redneck Kris Overstreet, web pages beyond belief http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/milkmaid/ - The Magnificent Milkmaid ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 98 18:18 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- Kyrios of Jean and going celestial >I agree this means Kyrios of Jean attunement was worthless before the >advent of "real" technology. It's probably one of the less troublesome ones for earlier tech, actually.... > But then, quite a few of his attunements >share that distinction (no pun intended). The ability to have a >computer appear out of nowhere to hook up to the internet strikes me as >particularly useless in the 1850's. Jean just moves with the times. >Perhaps the old attunement was a ball of lightning that could scry. True. And the Cherub attunement wouldn't make sense until late in this century, either. One of these days, I'm going to try to figure out exactly how Jean's Servitor Attunements have changed over time.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 98 18:24 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: Word Forces (was Re: IN> Placing credit) [Redneck:] >Why should a Word-bound Celestial have extra Essence storage? > >Besides, its Word provides an extra supply of Essence anyway. Huh? Where? Did I miss something? So they've got a special rite for their own Word, but that's no big deal. >The problem is not that Word-bounds have too little power, it's that >non-Wordbound PCs are getting too -much.- Actually, I'd claim that both are potentially troublesome. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 19:37:48 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Yet another Sorcerer question... At 1:22 PM -0700 6/5/98, Gerry Mckelvey wrote: >I don't know if this was mentioned in the rules or not, but.... >can sorcerers learn songs like regular soldiers? However regular Soldiers do, yes. I think they need to A: be able to spend Essence consciously, and B: have 6 Forces. And not looking at my books, I suspect that those are pre-reqs for Sorcery anyway? >Do they have to be taught >them from a demon or can they summon something from the marches and beat it >out of them? seems like that if they could, it might make them pretty >tough soldiers... Up to the GM. I'd probably let them get it either way, depending on how Songs get taught... >Can undead become sorcerers? *that* is an interesting thought... A Mummy might, a Vampire might... A Zombi, no. Up to the GM. I might allow it, oh yes... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 19:53:56 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Role Levels -- another take At 5:29 PM -0500 6/4/98, Redneck Gaijin wrote: >A Role's Level is the level of security, the depth of proof, that the Role >has. Actually, in written *canon*, a Role is the chance that something you do, in that Role, won't disturb the Symphony. The level of documentation, far as I know, is up to the GM to figure. The only other stuff about celestials living in the corporeal realm is on p. 203, in the maintext. Which doesn't mean anyone should stop debating what the levels of Role grant in corporeal documentation... But there's no canon on that... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 01:39:40 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: Word Forces (was Re: IN> Placing credit) On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Walter Milliken wrote: > >I'm not sure I like Word Forces - it upsets the nice balance of the > >Forces, I think. What is it in a word that's beyond the Corporeal, > >Ethereal and Celestial? > > It's the abstract theme in the Symphony that is the Word. Or something > like that... color isn't my strong point. The three existing Forces are > essentially "personal" -- they give the strength of the character in > each of the three realms. Word Forces would indicate the strength of > the character's connection to his Word, and/or the strength of the Word > itself. > > Think about it this way -- regular celestials have a connection to each > of the three realms, defined by their Forces for that realm. Word-bound > are qualitatively different, having an additional connection to a > specific theme of the Symphony, represented by their Word Forces. Hm. I thought the Symphony -was- the three realms, in some way. I guess I've got that backwards in some way... *scratching head* That does make sense, though, in a way. > > I'm not sure the benefits of Word Forces is worth > >upsetting that balance. Couldn't the greater power of Word-bound > >Celestials be modelled in some other way? > > But all methods suffer from needing to change pre-existing Word-bound to > conform, or the existing Word-bound must be declared weak or atypical. > I don't think either of those options is desirable. If we're going to > change something, I'd like to opt for something relatively simple. True. What's really needed is a second edition. Before the first is finished... ;) > > Attunements only available to > >Word-bounds perhaps? > > Those must exist -- logically one of them is the ability to grant your > Word attunements to others, since that appears to be one of their few > additional powers that is exclusive to Word-bound. > > > "You can store X extra Essence" where X depends > >on how strong the Word is in the world. > > That's what I was using Word Forces for, mostly. Forces are already the > canonical way that celestials store Essence. I have some mechanics > problems with an attunement with a wildly-varying effectiveness, based > on what Word you happen to have. With the Word Forces concept, your > number of Word Forces is *bounded* by the power of the Word, but your > connection to it (and therefore your personal power) can grow slowly > over time -- it's not a quantum leap. Of course, you *could* be granted > a large number of Word Forces when you are first given your Word; this > is akin to what happens when someone is elevated to Superior status. > > In other words, I'm leary of any mechanism for gaining a Word that > potentially produces greap leaps in character power -- I don't like > singularity points much, at least for PCs. (Elevation to Superior is a > different can of worms, and one I hope IN never needs to cover....) Good points. I wasn't thinking much about PCs, but more about the philosophical parts, I guess. :) (Though there is the Imp of Vap exception to storable Essence=number of Forces... ;)) > > Different attunements for the > >creation of Vessels, granting of Rites, and so on. > > I don't think Word-bound can (or should) create vessels, unless maybe > their Word somehow implies that. (I can't think of how that might > happen, but it may be possible.) Oh, didn't think about that. Just an example, anyway. Well, I'm not saying that I'm totally opposed to the idea, just that I'm not sure it's the best way to do it. I'm not sure Word-bound should be player characters at all, but if you want that, you'll have to fix it somehow. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 19:27:35 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Career Paths for Diabloic Servants (was Re: IN- supporting cast) >>Andrew Frades Wrote >> >>One little problem with all of this... When an undead dies he/she is >>dead for good. No soul going on to its eternal reward/punishment, >>nothing. The Undead's celestial forces are bound up into the corporeal >>there is no soul to be loosed and thus no soul to save. >> >>Once you buy a prize it is yours to keep. > >I know I've said this before, but I do have apersonal problem with this a= >nd >I'll try to illustrate. > >A small thought experiment. A uniquely honest demon appears to you and >points out in no uncertain terms that you are an Evil Person. He suggest= >s >that you might as well work directly for Hell, and cash in on the extra >benefits, rather than just fiddle around the edges. He goes on to outlin= >e >for you the three major options possible to a recruit to the Diabolic. > >1. Soldier of Hell. You get access to possible power and privilege as >well as becoming part of a power structure that has some limited interest >in your welfare, as long as you support it=92s aims. You live no longer >than >you would otherwise and when you die you to go to Hell and suffer >excruciating torment for all eternity. > >2. Sorcerer. You get access to the possibility of great powers, however >every time you attempt to increase your powers you could go straight to >Hell and suffer excruciating torment for all eternity. You live no longe >r >than you would otherwise and when you die you go to Hell and suffer >excruciating torment for all eternity. > >3. Undeath. You gain immediate supernatural powers, plus possible >additional power and privilege as well as becoming part of a power >structure that has some limited interest in your welfare, as long as you >support its aims. You may have to deal with unnatural needs to mainta >in >your existence, but otherwise you will live until you are physically kill >ed >and when you die your essential being will cease to exist, and you DO NOT >go to Hell and suffer excruciating torment for all eternity. > >He gives you three chances to choose the best option. Which do you prefe >r? > >Thanking you for your indulgence. > >Regards, Peter. "Dude! I'll take item menu item #3! Where do I sign up! Give me power with no risk to my soul! Yeah!" - -Perry, Kryriotate of Flowers Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) (Yeah, so I'm still around, I lied. I'll probably *never* get off this list. :) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 19:32:31 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Undead, Soul Extinction, Essence Mining and Saminga >> Saminga looks pretty powerful, after all Death is everywhere, you could >> debate how much of it is Bad or Diabolic Death and how much is Good Dea= >th, >> but that=92s for another time. His Corporeal servants tend to be power= >ful >> and obviously so, but he doesn=92t have the Essence to smeg all and sun= >dry on >> the Celestial Planes, because if he did have the Essence he would just = >do it. > >This is probably just me, and a point of semantics, but I see Saminga as >the Demon Prince of the Dead, which is different then the Demon Prince of >Death. Hell yeah! He doesn't have dominion over the dying and the act of death, tha= >t >I hand to the Archangel Eli (with Creation comes Destruction, there comes >a time for even the stars above to die...) who is righteously incredibly >powerful. I give to Saminga the rotting corpses filled with maggots whic= >h >are left behind in the ground long after the Soul has moved on; I give hi= >m >dominion over death camps and firing squads and the gallows and mad seria= >l >killers who revel in the dead and whose minds cannot comprehend life, but >I do not give him power over death itself. Saminga is no Grim Reaper - he >is what is left behind after Judgment has come and gone. His dominion is >empty corpses, and even his Soldiers are just that - dead animated bodies. yeah! go dead animated bodies! errr.... >Now, this limits him nicely. He gets death rites and satanists and mass >burials, but he doesn't get essence every time someone dies. He has no >power over the act of someone dying, he only has what is left after they >are gone. =20 > >- Em Hmmmmm... Couldn't one carry over the meaning of "The dead" to mean thse souls that have moved past life? Anyway, I'm not even supposed to be here anymore... - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 20:41:12 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: Word Forces (was Re: IN> Placing credit) On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Pee Kitty wrote: > We were talking about how to handle Word-Bound PCs and NPCs...ya know, the > normal 9-18 Force ones. I would like to go on record here (even though this has nothing to do with the actual post) as saying that I do not like the concept of Word Forces. I would like to see some method of demonstrating how powerful a Celestial's Word is, but I do not think that an entirely new Force is required to do it. I also do not believe that new Forces are required to make a Word-bound, an Archangel, or a Demon Prince more powerful. All that is needed for that task is more Forces. In may campaign, this has become a situation that I needed to deal with. After a year of gaming, 3 of my 5 regular players have managed to acquire a Word for their characters, by demonstrating that they were the best suited for the task of promoting that Word. So, in order to give them something to work towards, here is what I decided on. Regular Celestials may have up to 18 Forces, with no more than 6 Forces in any given category. Their skills and songs are likewise limited to that level. Word-bound Celestials may have up 54 Forces, with no more than 18 Forces in any given category. Their skills and songs are likewise limited to a maximum of 18, and may not exceed the appropriate Force by more than 4 (that is, an angel with the Celestial Song of Motion and 12 Celestial Forces may not have the song at a level higher than 16). In addition, each day that pases in which the Word-bound does not promote it's Word, it takes 1 soul hit which may not heal until the Celestial promotes it's Word succssfully. Archangels and Demon Princes may have up to 90 Forces, with no more than 30 in any category. Their skills and songs are likewise limited to a maximum of 30,and may not exceed the appropriate Force by more than 6. They also get all kinds of tricks that they can do with their Word, but I haven't detailed this since I don't expect any of my players to get there any time soon. Now, how do I control all of this? Simple. I drag them into politics more, and let them fight less. Role playing becomes more important, and dice rolling is cut back. They have power, but they now have to spend more time maintaining it. Oh, the essence thing. I still use the old rule that using a rite grants essence to the Word-bound that bestowed that rite. I get around the problem of them giving their rite to everyone they meet by tying the success of their Word to everyone that also posesses that rite. There is no direct damage, but if the person with their rite is not activly promoting their Word, they lose power. Give it to enough people who don't really care, and they will fade away. Anyway, I allow them to regenerate an additional amount of essence equal to the number of their Servitors, spread equally throughout the day (24 servitors equals 1 extra essence per hour). If I had to give a mechanic to Archangels/Demon Princes (not likely), I would allow them to regenerate essence as a resonance action (roll the d666, get back essence equal to the check die, 111's and 666's have unforseen and not yet determined results). I haven't given any thoughts to tethers yet. I like the requirement of investing a Force in them, and then gaining essence from them. I think I'll have to work that out. Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant PS: In canon can any Word-bound have a tether, or are they limited to the Archangels and Demon Princes? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 01:53:57 -0400 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> Yet another Sorcerer question... Gerry Mckelvey wrote: > I don't know if this was mentioned in the rules or not, but.... > can sorcerers learn songs like regular soldiers? Do they have to be taught > them from a demon or can they summon something from the marches and beat it > out of them? seems like that if they could, it might make them pretty > tough soldiers... I would say that since you must have the sorcery attunement to become a sorceror that you have already crossed the gap from pure mundane and that allowing you to learn songs is resonable. As far as learning songs from stuff that you summon... sure why not, you have to summon something rather powerful (not earth shattering, just not ethereal mice) in order for it to have any songs. This would make it quite a bit more difficult to rough them up for knowledge. Greater reward is greater risk. > Can undead become sorcerers? *that* is an interesting thought... I would say yes. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 02:18:37 -0400 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> Role Levels -- another take Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Which doesn't mean anyone should stop debating what the levels of > Role grant in corporeal documentation... But there's no canon on > that... Actually I think that there is (he said wondering if he is going for a Nitpicking distinction) :) IN p.43, "...But if you buy a role as a policeman, there will be a coffee-cup at the station house with your name on it, and no amout of "checking up" will reveal you to be anything but a real cop. You *are* a real cop." It sounds to me like any level of role makes the symphony and any who check believe you to be what you say you are. Apparently background checks don;t work to uncover roles, you need to see the celestial do something weird that mortals cannot do and then you just need to keep watching. Andrew ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #811 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.