From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Jun 10 12:24:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA07250 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:24:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id LAA28251 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:54:27 -0500 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:54:27 -0500 Message-Id: <199806101654.LAA28251@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #817 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, June 10 1998 Volume 01 : Number 817 In this digest: Re: IN> Thether Thoughts Plus Re: IN> Re: Word Forces (and Tether construction) (long) Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Life without Death? (was Re: IN> Newbie Nattering) Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia IN> A Diabolical ploy? Re: IN> Newbie Nattering IN> Re: Willy Wonka, what is he? IN> Re: IN- A Diabolical ploy? Re: IN> Shedim and hosts Re: IN> Newbie Nattering Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Re: IN> Re: Willy Wonka, what is he? Re: IN> Communism=Evil? Re: IN> Communism=Evil? Re: IN> A Diabolical ploy? Re: IN> Communism=Evil? Re: IN> Tethers Re: IN> Communism=Evil? Munchkinism in IN (was: Re: IN> Thether Thoughts Plus) Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Re: Life without Death? (was Re: IN> Newbie Nattering) Re: Munchkinism in IN (was: Re: IN> Thether Thoughts Plus) Re: IN> Communism=Evil? Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia IN> Archangel Marc ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 09 Jun 98 17:57 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Thether Thoughts Plus [Martin:] >If you want really buff Superiors, why not allow the tethers to *store* >Essence? As it happens, I've already got something like this -- Tethers can have Forces invested in them, which allows them to store Essence. (These Forces come either from the Superior or a Word-bound Seneschal, and are considered Word Forces, in the current draft.) I don't generally expect Tethers to store *lots* of Essence, though -- I don't like the idea of the Senschal having access to Superior-class Essence reserves. (Seneschals can tap the Essence flow and storage in their Tether as part of their powers, in the draft canon.) >Thoughts on Tether Creation: > >T.'s seem to be spontaneous rather than engineered. Baal doesn't >engineer a great battle to get a Battlefield Tether, a Tether develops at >a great battlefield. Actually, you *can* engineer events likely to cause Tether formation, but the actually activity that triggers formation must be from within the Symphony -- i.e., you can't just spend a lot of Essence to generate a Tether. However, there's no guarantee that an engineered event will give *you* a Tether -- a battle is just as likely to create a Tether to Michael, or Saminga, depending on how it goes. > This >almost imples that there are 'unattached Tethers' to concepts that have >lack an active Superior. I didn't like this notion, quite, when I had the equivalent thought, but I do have something similar -- Tethers are initially "wild", and are attracted to places with strong Word-connections that relate to the Tether. They can actually "hunt" around if there are several possibilities, and they'll settle for the best match(es) they find. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 98 18:08 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: Word Forces (and Tether construction) (long) [Richard Gant:] > I took your idea >about tethers maybe needing a Force bound into them and ran with it. I >don't know if it will match up with your ideas, Not even close, for the most part, but interesting.... The biggest diversion is the notion that celestials can create Tethers. This is a *big* no-no in canon. All Tethers happen due to "normal" Symphonic events (i.e., actions of humans, or natural things). >The Word-bound makes a Will roll. If it is successful, he strips off the >Forces required to power the tether (1-3 Forces, with no more than 1 Force >from each category and no more than 1 Force for every 2 points on the >check die). I think it's going to be canon that only Superiors can manipulate Forces - -- that being one of their distinguishing characteristics. But this isn't set in stone right now.... >Daily, a tether generates an amount of Essence for the Word-bound it >serves equal to it's level. In my model, they actually "funnel" Essence generated by the Word-related activity to the owner (always a Superior in my draft). And the Essence amounts are usually much larger.... >The Forces bound into the tether are still part of the Word-bound, to a >degree. They count as Forces for determining the total amount of Essence >the Word-bound may store, and may be lost (if the Word-bound so chooses) >in place of Forces lost in Celestial combat. They do not count in any way >for determining attributes, Song target numbers, hits of any kind, or >anything else. Also, if the tether is ever destroyed, the Forces are lost >into the Symphony. I have something very similar to this in the draft. However, note that destruction of the Tether will destroy the linked Seneschal in canon -- I'm less sure what the effect on the Tether's owner is; I've been thinking roughly what you have above, that they just lose a bunch of Forces (and a source of Essence). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 18:29:04 -0700 From: "Gerry Mckelvey" Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia > > I think that before people start making wild statements about what is > evil, they should define what they're talking about, and in this instance, > give concrete examples. I don't happen to see public health-care, public > education, and state-owned electricity companies as evil. > read the clinton health care package again, with special attention to the section on how it's to be funded...or read the Canadian health care package and compare it to what's offered by any major corp...as for public education...it needs reformed...badly. recent news events tend to support this view...what we got now isn't working at all...the NEA needs a boot in the rear, start paying attention to thier jobs and stop playing politics.. Hey, would this be an example of the Prince of factions work?? Jerry McKelvey Exitus Acta Probat. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 18:54:21 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia In a message dated 6/9/98 8:24:34 AM, aburner@erols.com writes: >> Let's bring this to a modern IN campaign. Howabout >>a 'modern' witchhunt? > > Child abuse. > Child molestation. > > I can't recall specifics, but there was that incident a few years >ago in which a physically deformed and slightly mentally retarded guy was >convicted of child molestation at a day care center. Later it was >discovered that the prosecution was very much shaping and leading the >testimony of the children in private examination (since they didn't want >the kids to be "embarrassed" on the stand), and that the guy was innocent. > > Afterburner > Cherub (or possibly Malakite or Mercurian)of Anti-Spammers > Another example of the same: Wenatchee. A police officer (or sheriff's deputy) is assigned to work the child abuse desk, with only the minimal 8-hr. orientation. His older foster daughter accuses an adult of raping her (after she breaks up with him...) by the time all is said and done, forty-odd adults with a mean IQ of 89 are accused of over 6,000 counts of child abuse. Children are told they'll never see their parents unless they testify against them, and then are taken away and never see their parents again outside the courtroom. Children who deny that they were abused are sent to a mental institution in Idaho (approx. 3 hrs. away) and drugged or held until they change their story. Today, most of the convictions are being overturned, and the policeman, the department, CPS, the city, the county, and the state are all being sued by defendants... Mark (see Witchhunt, Modern Day...) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 23:48:06 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia At 18:29 09/06/98 -0700, you wrote: > >> >> I think that before people start making wild statements about what is >> evil, they should define what they're talking about, and in this >instance, >> give concrete examples. I don't happen to see public health-care, public >> education, and state-owned electricity companies as evil. >> >read the clinton health care package again, with special attention to the >section on how it's to be funded...or read the Canadian health care package >and compare it to what's offered by any major corp...as for public >education...it needs reformed...badly. We don't all live in the US. (That was a /clue/). Some of us have different experience from you of public health care and public education. Some of us also live in places which have (or have had) nominally socialist governments. It isn't evil. It's just 'not what you are used to'. There is a difference. jo (OK, OK, I know that was off-topic. I will stop.) "Whatever was required to be done, the Circumlocution Office was before hand with all the public departments in the art of perceiving HOW NOT TO DO IT." -- Dickens (Little Dorrit) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 19:01:21 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia In a message dated 6/9/98 9:24:10 AM, earlw@mc.com writes: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> Further, I believe it's based on a *play*. (A musical one? Dunno. But >> I'm 90% sure that I saw a "based on" in the credits -- and there's >> a copycat cheapo version with the exact same name, so whatever it >> came from *has* to be public domain.) > >I don't know what the play would be, but when we saw it, I said to >my wife that it looked exactly like a '30s or '40s musical with >no constraints from budget or physics. All those dance numbers... > >Earl Actually, its based on a movie. Yul Brynner (Mangling spelling merrily...) played the Dmitri part, I can't remember the rest of the cast. Mark. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 18:34:43 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia On Tue, 9 Jun 1998 MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: > Another example of the same: Wenatchee. Oh, yes. And the judge wouldn't allow into evidence the fact that the children had also said things which were disproven by the physical evidence (things they claimed were done to them that would've sent them to the hospital and left scars.) And two of the three primary accused (mother and daughter) were denied probation for years after they were eligible in spite of being model prisoners ... because they denied having done it. And the two-bit DA (I think he was a prosecutor, not a cop) who started all of this had his foster daughter accuse anyone who spoke up saying this was ludicrous. Many of the children are genuinely traumatized, now, because they've been genuinely brought to believe it. When authority figures tell a young girl she's lying when she says X didn't happen, and then rewards her when she invents stories about X ... well, some children don't draw clear-cut distinctions between the real and the invented. :( Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 21:36:00 -0300 From: Marcelo Soares Subject: Life without Death? (was Re: IN> Newbie Nattering) > > "Earth is now a reflection of Hell. Humans are rounded up and >tortured hideously before dying. Often they're tortured hideously and not >*allowed* to die. This sparked something... What would happen if Death was stripped of the Simphony, maybe there is an Angel or even a Demon who was warded the word of Life, and intend to make it more powerful, so he by some unknown means defeated Saminga and was able to erased the word Death from the Simphony... now people, animals, plants, angels and demons... and maybe, the dead people are getting back... If this guy is an Angel (probably now an Archangel) how would the others react... This really subverted one of the most basic principle of Creation... that one day all will end. Would the Seraphim Council ward the word of Death to someone else and let them fight? Or try to make an arrangement... Death and Life can be enemies or can be complements... And what about the demons? Now that you can't be kill it really doesn't matter if you go to a Malakite Meeting... Maybe Lucifer would ward the word Death to somedemon and make a big fight over ir... or maybe... just maybe... he would try to make the Archangel of Life falls... what is not so difficult, after all, by finishing Death he took away something of his own Word... maybe he subverted Life in such a way that he went so against God's plan that he fell from Heaven... and is now the Demon Prince of Life??? And how would this affect the War? Now that nobody can die... there can't be a winner, right? Please some thoughts... "Hello, I love you won't you tell me your name. Hello, I love you let me jump in yopur game." Doors Marcelo Soares ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 22:54:14 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia At 11:40 PM 9/06/98, you wrote: >Dear List > >Has anyone seen Anastasis? I must admit I haven't but what my housemate >told me about it + the recent mentions of Communism [gee who started that >(% ] made me think someone might be interested. > >Apparently as the action starts in Tzarist Russia there are lots of happy >beautiful people living in castles and even the peasants who don't live in >castles seem pretty well off. Then along comes nasty evil monk Rasputin >who curses the Tzar, selling his soul in the process and causing every >thing to fall into decay allowing the Communists to take over. > >Does anyone have a problem with the messages this might be sending to the >likely young audience of this animated feature? > >What I see here are 1 Non-mainline religeous leaders are evil and probably >in league with Satan; 2 Absolute states like Monarchies are fun places >where everyone is happy; 3 Socialism is Evil; 4 Resistance to the >Establishment is only possble with Diabolic aid and then results only is a >worse situation where everyone is much less happy (if not slaughtered in >their thousands). > >Makes me wonder what drugs the Disney writers are on so I can stay well >away from them. > >Thanking you for your indulgence. > >Regards, Peter. > >UH, I'm sure glad Walt Disney isn't alive to see this, he's proabbly spinning in his grave anyway! 1 Not non-mainline religious leaders, just the Catholic Church 2. Monarchies do have the undeniable advatage of the ruling being done by those who know how to rule, not by scores of people who are only really voting because theyll be fined if they don't 3. No it isn't evil but then again, like a gun, it can be used for evil purposes 4. The Diabolicals are resisting the greatest establishment of them all! no wonder others in similar situations should ask for their help! And of course the Disney Guys are on drugs, don't you know Disney Studios is a tether to Fleurity! Simon, Demon Prince of Pearls > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 23:34:58 +0100 From: Roland Ward Subject: IN> A Diabolical ploy? Has anyone thought about bringing bits (not all mind) of the White Wolf games in to In Nomine to fill out the Vampires, Ghosts etc.? I know it sounds like heresy, but it might lead to interesting situations if say not all vampires were NOT actually evil - a Malakite would kill regardless, but the others? Might they even be useful? Just a thought... BTW - most posters on this list seem to be US based - is this true? Roland - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roland Ward Glasgow Scotland, U.K. rward@cqm.co.uk brought to you by Red Hat Linux... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 23:17:54 +0100 From: Roland Ward Subject: Re: IN> Newbie Nattering Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > >It may play more like a soap-opera in some ways, occasionally, if > > >you do a lot of character-oriented plots, of course. > > Absolutely not! Actually, I've had this idea of writing up a mock-recap > for an IN soap/sitcom with the title "Horns and Halos"... :) Well I've got my PC's (mix of angels and soldiers) setting up a pub in London to try and counteract demonic influences in the area. Kind of like Cheers, but with demons. :-) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roland Ward Glasgow Scotland, U.K. rward@cqm.co.uk brought to you by Red Hat Linux... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 23:16:30 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: IN> Re: Willy Wonka, what is he? All this chatter about movies and stuff, reminds me of how I watched Charlie and the Chocolate Factory for the forst time in like years, a few days ago. Now I was expecting to be disappointed like I usually am when i watch a movie I liked as a child now, but I wasn't, surprisingly there is a lot in it for adults, especially Willy Wonka himself, and if you can get past the Ooompa Loompa moral preaching (in catchy tunes no less). Willy Wonka himself seems to be a rather kooky Creationer, with a sadistic twist, or possibly an ethereal, a renegade demon of fate, I don't know, but the one clue lies in my most favorite of his statements 'We are the music bringers, we are the dreamers of dreams' so could it really be Blandine he serves? the Ooompa Loompas look like something from the Far Marches anyway, oh yeah, have any of you heard the rumors that the movie actually represented Freemason initiation? :) Simon, Demon Prince of Pearls ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 18:53:12 PDT From: "Bartholomew Hammerly" Subject: IN> Re: IN- A Diabolical ploy? I am, but that's like saying I'm from China. It begs the question, "Which part?" The answer? Ain't gonna tell y'all. >Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 23:34:58 +0100 >From: Roland Ward >To: In Nomine >Subject: IN> A Diabolical ploy? >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > >Has anyone thought about bringing bits (not all mind) of the White Wolf >games in to In Nomine to fill out the Vampires, Ghosts etc.? >I know it sounds like heresy, but it might lead to interesting >situations if say not all vampires were NOT actually evil - a Malakite >would kill regardless, but the others? Might they even be useful? > >Just a thought... > >BTW - most posters on this list seem to be US based - is this true? > > >Roland Bart Hammerly Calabim of ? "Time is the fire in which we burn." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 22:03:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and hosts On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 4:33 AM -0400 6/9/98, Matthias M¸ller wrote: > >If I read the IN rulebook right, a human keeps the memories of the > >possession when a Shedite leaves it. So, he remembers the demonic > >allies the Shedite visited and possibly their hideouts ? Sounds rather > >risky, do most Shedites dispose of their hosts after wearing them ? > > Or corrupt them so much that nobody trusts what they say anymore. > Just getting them hooked on a hallucinagin would probably do it. A standard tactic of the Shedite in my group, when a ride overhears/sees too much to just let him go casually, is to get very, very, very, VERY drunk or ingest many drugs before abandoning him. It doesn't affect the demon very much, but when he leaves, the ride is so whacked out he couldn't tell anyone what color his shoes were...when he recovers, he's spent days not knowing what was real and what was an alcohol/drug induced hallucination. Not 100% guaranteed, but it's worked so far. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! | "Fuck 'Em If They Can't Take A Joke is more than just a meaningless | | slogan; it's actually a pretty serious statement, and one that I hold | | true to, with a cream pie in one hand and a chainsaw in the other..." | | -- Me | ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 22:05:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Newbie Nattering On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Afterburner wrote: > "Earth is now a reflection of Hell. Humans are rounded up and > tortured hideously before dying. Often they're tortured hideously and not > *allowed* to die. The land itself has been subverted to reflect the > twisted Diabolical influence. Demons openly walk the Earth and Angels > openly attempt to fight the Demonic presence. There are a few outposts > left of untainted Earth, but these are scattered and, for the most part, > unable to cooperate on any large scale (other than providing safe havens, > occasional supplies, etc)." Have you checked out Dark VIctory yet? (It's on the INC) It sounds like it might be a good setting for you. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! | "Fuck 'Em If They Can't Take A Joke is more than just a meaningless | | slogan; it's actually a pretty serious statement, and one that I hold | | true to, with a cream pie in one hand and a chainsaw in the other..." | | -- Me | ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 22:21:38 -0400 From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Kevin Walsh wrote: >On Tue, Jun 09, 1998 at 01:09:20PM -0400, Barelocks@aol.com wrote: > >> What!!? Are you trying to say socialism is not evil :>? > >I think that before people start making wild statements about what is >evil, they should define what they're talking about, and in this instance, >give concrete examples. I don't happen to see public health-care, public >education, and state-owned electricity companies as evil. OTOH, I do; and in addition to a self-consistent moral explanation why, I can also offer the statistics and mathematical arguments that underly my pragmatic rationale for regarding these things as a bad. But that's not on-topic for this list, so I will forbear. I recommend this course to others as well, because political beliefs are enough a matter of core worldview that to a good approximation facts and reasoned arguments won't change anyone's mind. In an effort to bring some on-topic content to this post, I will note that the medieval Church regarded the payment of interest as sinful. This could be the basis for a downright odd take on Marc, if anyone is interested. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:01:45 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jesse L. Rooney" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Willy Wonka, what is he? The list has reached a new level when Oompa Loompa is used in posts. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 22:10:37 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Communism=Evil? >> In America you CAN be a communist if you so desire. > >You can be a communist, but running for office as a a communist or >socialist is still illegal. Just ask Bernie Sanders. > >-Jesse Sorry, but I have to disagree. I have voter's pamphlets that have both communist and socialist candidates. Right here in the Pac NW of the US. Not one of them has been arrested as far as I know, and I usually pay attention to such things. Of course, not one of them has been elected either. One of them was running on the free parking downtown and no admission golf or zoo ("You've already paid for it!") Which might lead one to think that he ought to be locked up for being a raving nut case. I tend to think that my fair city has a tether to David. (How this fits into the post, I don't think I know; but trying to get back on topic) The fact that we do have a communist party (all nice and legal) makes me think that there are people here that like to work in groups. (We also have a large gang population, so go figure) On that note, a few years ago around Xmas, a house that had a menora (spell?) had a rock thrown through a window by anti-semites. Everyone in the neighborhood (nearly 85% were non-Jewish) put menoras in their windows as a sign of solidarity. David's hand at work? I'll digress no further, Armand ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 03:47:24 EDT From: Heretic103@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Communism=Evil? If I may interject for a moment and take the soap box... In In Nomine idealology is niether infernal nor heavenly as is a earthy gun if the gun is held by a demon then it is "evil" if it is held by a angel it is heavenly. comunism or any other "ism" for that matter is as good or evil as its application. for instance if a perticular "ism" is used to slaughter millions of innocent people then it is evil, like facism. thank you ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 04:12:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> A Diabolical ploy? On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Roland Ward wrote: > Has anyone thought about bringing bits (not all mind) of the White Wolf > games in to In Nomine to fill out the Vampires, Ghosts etc.? Yes. In fact, I'm beta-testing a very messy IN-hacked-to-WW-mechanics campaign. No mutinies as of yet. > I know it sounds like heresy, but it might lead to interesting > situations if say not all vampires were NOT actually evil - a Malakite > would kill regardless, but the others? Might they even be useful? Heh. Wanna screw with your player's minds? Have them make a perception check when they encounter a vampire. If it succeeds, tell them they perceive angelic script upon said vampire's forehead. What's it say? "HARM NOT THIS (WO)MAN, LEST YE BE STRUCK DOWN." Mark of Cain, don'cha know. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:17:29 -0400 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> Communism=Evil? Jesse L. Rooney wrote: > > In America you CAN be a communist if you so desire. > > You can be a communist, but running for office as a a communist or > socialist is still illegal. Just ask Bernie Sanders. Are you sure about Socialist registered participants? Until fairly recently Vermont had a Socialist Governor. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:18:21 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Tethers Walter Milliken wrote: > In fact, the canon bits I'm writing now on Tethers, they all start out > as "wild", and the celestial end manifests in places the Tether has an > affinity to (i.e., the celestial location has a strong Word-connection > to whatever event formed the Tether). The Superior then has to > "capture" the Tether and stabilize it. I really like that. (See, I don't disagree with everything on principle :) ). Being a celestial cartographer might be quite a fun little job. Every superior must need some, if only to point out hitherto unknown geographical features which might turn out to be newly manifest and untamed tether-points. jo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:40:44 -0400 From: Afterburner Subject: Re: IN> Communism=Evil? >> You can be a communist, but running for office as a a communist or >> socialist is still illegal. Just ask Bernie Sanders. > >Are you sure about Socialist registered participants? Until fairly recently >Vermont had a Socialist Governor. I suspect he's wrong. Surely such a law would fly directly into the face of the 1st Amendment. AB ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:59:46 +0200 From: Rene Kragh Pedersen Subject: Munchkinism in IN (was: Re: IN> Thether Thoughts Plus) Martin Leslie Leuschen wrote: [...] > Latest Thoughts on Quantifying Stuff: > > A big problem with the entire thing is that the IN system tops out hard. > Even beginning PCs can easily reach rediculaous levels of "auto- > successness" - see: > The dude has no Will. He can be possessed, harmonized, you name it. Demons research as well as angels do, and they're bound to find a weakness or two. Imagine a situation where the PC gets possessed... I wouldn't want to be in a fight with or against a ticking bomb like that(!) He has no Intelligence either. Without having my book with me, I am certain there is plenty of ways to hit him - and _hard_ - it won't take long before word of a powerhouse like that hits the streets in Demonland, and when that happens, boy does Vapula have the tool you need }:-> I'm not worried. I'd let my players do that any day. I'm certain they would get bored with the character rather quickly though unless they specifically picked fights and enjoyed it. Regards, - -- Rene Kragh Pedersen - ------------------------------------------------------------------ What incredible irony! | If you strangle a smurf, - Kyle. | what colour will its face be? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:35:11 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > (Besides, it's fashionable to sniff at communism now. It kind of > died off.) Not exactly... not with China a major world power (and poised to become a major world economic power). I admit that the chinese brand of communism has always had a different flavor from the more 'western' types like that of the soviet union. The tiny communist military dictatorships aren't much different than the typical military dictatorship except for press releases and propaganda. BTW, has anyone done anything with China? I mean, it has over a billion people... surely both sides of the War have interests over there. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:53:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia > BTW, has anyone done anything with China? I mean, > it has over a billion people... surely both sides of the War > have interests over there. Buddhists, Taoists, Confucists, Neo-Confucists, Communism based Atheists - I was under the impression that, in the In Nomine universe, we were at some sort of angry armed truce over not touching religions outside of the Big Three. And even then, really only Christianity, and even then, only certain parts of Christianity. I mean hell, if we don't know about it, it doesn't exist, right? RIGHT? I think in the In Nomine universe we tacitly pretend that nearly two billion people don't exist, not counting the entire Indian subcontinent, native African religions, Australian Bushmen, Voudoun, and some of the more interesting aboriginal beliefs of North American and South American Indians. At least, that's what I've gathered from the List and the source books to date. - - Em. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:16:10 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: Life without Death? (was Re: IN> Newbie Nattering) If you want a, um, canonical form of "life without death," you can work it into an Armageddon scenario. The chaos you anticipate from such a development makes the matchup natural. Furthermore, all three of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity clearly and definitely expect a "day of resurrection" in which all the dead come back. Now, in most real-world-religious scenarios, the resurrection happens *after* the battle of Armageddon proper, but, hey, it's a scheduling detail. It also has a certain amount of dramatic value for all the good guys and bad guys of history to have a grand and glorious final re-match. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:20:41 EDT From: SienarFLT@aol.com Subject: Re: Munchkinism in IN (was: Re: IN> Thether Thoughts Plus) In a message dated 98-06-10 09:05:18 EDT, you write: > > A big problem with the entire thing is that the IN system tops out hard. > > Even beginning PCs can easily reach rediculaous levels of "auto- > > successness" - see: > > html> > > The dude has no Will. He can be possessed, harmonized, you name it. > Demons research as well as angels do, and they're bound to find a > weakness or two. I found out just how darned irritating the song of Charm could be during our last session, when the Saint of creation in the party used the celestial song of charm against one of the big word bound demons I had pitted them against. Our Malak had just got done whomping on him and he tried to get away by descending, but then couldn't because his Will was so low. So yes, I agree, munchkins may abound but there is always a way of putting them in their place. -- Thom Dawson (reply to SienarFLT@aol.com) "...one man's mundane and desperate existence is another man's Technicolor." -- from "Strange Days" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:18:29 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Communism=Evil? John J Maurer wrote: > What do you mean by "guilty as hell." Do you mean they were communists? > Last I checked we had a freedom of association amendment in our > constitution. In America you CAN be a communist if you so desire. > > Do you mean they were spies for Russia? That they were selling secrets? > These are more serious charges. They were, and I use only the vaguest terms here, working for the downfall of the country in which they lived by giving information and support to a hostile foreign power. > Remember that the problem with the McCarthy hearings was that it did not > matter if you were CONVICTED, merely being CHARGED was sufficient to ruin > reputations. I agree! That's the only reason I brought it up on this list. That's one of the reasons it makes such a great plot seed. What if this person who was ruining innocent people's lives was actually working for the greater good? How would that make you feel as an angel? Hell, how would that make you feel as a demon? > Communism works great in a world where no one is selfish.. . I'm sorry, but this statement is fatuous and needs to be commented on. The entire world, from the smallest microbe on up is designed selfish. Communism works well in a world where no one is HUMAN. Or even terrestrial. Numerous theoretical systems can work if you have identical or mindless components that work perfectly in sync. Sorry, but we have to live in the real world. By saying, "communism works great in a world where no one is selfish" you are basically saying, "Communism work well in fantasy worlds unconnected to anything real." Try reading "The Selfish Gene". The basic premise (which had been put forth before) is that our genetic structures try to make the best zygote to reproduce itself. An odd, but very compelling explanation for how evolution and behavior have come about. Only a recent development, morality, allows us to leaven strict selfishness. Only _effective_ moralities take our natures into account as part of their plan. The rest should be left to late-night bull sessions and theoretical discussions. Not forced onto other human beings. (Send replies to my email address...) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:40:21 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists > I mean hell, if we don't know about it, it doesn't exist, right? RIGHT? Take a pill ;-) I thought that was only a canon thing, because given the current setup it would be difficult to address non-monotheistic religions without having to say they were wrong. That doesn't mean no-one else has thought about it for their own campaign, which I thought was what John was asking. jo - --- "They obviously don't know the Scots too well." (A Scotland fan after a plane carrying him and other members of the Tartan Army ran out of beer after only 10 minutes.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:56:05 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Jesse L. Rooney wrote: > > > HELL YES! Look at all animated movies, the good guys always look good and > the bad guys are most often fat and have facial hair. (ALADIN, Popeye, > Bugs Bunny) The poor are as often as not bad guys (Lion King hyenaes, > aristocats) The good guys are thin and young, older people are often > villains or bumbling fools (Aladin) the men are almost always aggresive > and women are the most sensitive (Beauty and the Beast) Well, Quasimodo in the Disney film wasn't exactly good- looking. You notice he didn't get the girl, though. ;) BTW, doesn't bugs bunny have facial hair? (Well.... facial fur...) ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:55:45 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia On Tue, Jun 09, 1998 at 10:21:38PM -0400, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > > In an effort to bring some on-topic content to this post, I will > note that the medieval Church regarded the payment of interest as > sinful. This could be the basis for a downright odd take on Marc, > if anyone is interested. > I think that's been exaggerated somewhat. At least, it didn't stop the Templars charging interest. Of course it also surprises me somewhat that no one seems to have taken account of the fact that Trade (or at least wealth) is necessary for War. You'd think Marc would be Michael's best friend. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:37:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: IN> Archangel Marc > I think that's been exaggerated somewhat. At least, it didn't stop the > Templars charging interest. Of course it also surprises me somewhat that > no one seems to have taken account of the fact that Trade (or at least > wealth) is necessary for War. You'd think Marc would be Michael's best > friend. Indeed. This brings up the topic of Archangel Marc, who I think is given the shaft by not only canon, but many GMs (me included here). I think the strength and pervasiveness of his Word is often overlooked. Somewhere along the line it was written that Archangel Marc was rather young, for an Archangel. Historically, this has to be a glaring fallacy. I can easily say, without batting an eye, that Marc came to prominence somewhere in the human Neolithic Age, probably during the Ice Ages. Trade was around whenever there were tribes, competing or not, in the vacinity of one another. They traded news, they traded goods, they traded each other. It's a survival mechanism built into mankind's natural proclivity to build communities. From early Trade + Stone you can build the basics of Agriculture (to feed the population and a form of cash to trade with nearby Nomes), Pottery ( To keep the goods fresh and a method of trading them), and basic Architecture (housing people and goods). Trade + Destiny gives rise to Alphabet, for keeping inventory, and Mathematics, for inventory, census and architecture. Alphabet later turns into Language, and starts to slide under the umbrella of Destiny. But from Trade you can get supply lines to help fuel wars and sieges. You get supply routes to help keep your towns alive and your populance fed. An overabundance to supplies can help keep the population happy with luxuries such as music and dance - he works with Creation, too. His Words include Banking, Currency, Stock Market, Economy, and Taxation. Marc probably has an Angel of Socialism, just to promote some of the concepts of socialized health care and education. Mammon was probably a Word-Bound Angel of Marc's before the Fall, since you require Trade to be able to have Greed. How can you covet your neighbor's goods if you cannot ever know about those goods in the first place, or they are no better then yours? Marc was there when Mankind learned to use tools. He was there before the Fall, he was there long afterwards. Marc is not a young Archangel in any way. I think there is a tendancy to mix trade up with banking. This is incorrect; banking comes from trade, not the other way around. From what I have read, it seems to be natural to associate Marc with the banks that began in the 1000's, which would make him a 'young' Archangel, but this is not true. You needed active Trade to get goods to sell them to make money long before you needed a place to put your money. So that's my afternoon 2 cents. - - Em ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #817 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.