From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Jun 10 17:20:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA20061 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:20:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id RAA02322 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:20:10 -0500 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:20:10 -0500 Message-Id: <199806102220.RAA02322@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #818 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, June 10 1998 Volume 01 : Number 818 In this digest: Re: IN> Word Forces Re: Life without Death? (was Re: IN> Newbie Nattering) Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Re: IN> Archangel Marc Re: IN> Communism=Evil? IN> Re: IN- Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia IN> Re: IN- Archangel Marc RE: Life without Death? (was Re: IN> Newbie Nattering) Re: IN> Re: IN- Archangel Marc IN> [Fluff] Humor from The Onion IN> Canon? IN> Horsemen. IN> Horsemen. Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Re: IN> Communism=Evil? IN> Re: the whole Commie this, Commie that thing. Re: IN> Canon? IN> Re: IN- Canon? Re: IN> Canon? Re: IN> Archangel Marc Re: IN> Communism=Evil? Re: IN> Archangel Marc Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Re: IN> Archangel Marc Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Re: IN> Communism=Evil? Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Re: IN> Communism=Evil? Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Re: IN> Newbie Nattering IN> Are Demons still bad? Re: IN> Re: Willy Wonka, what is he? Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:48:59 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Word Forces On Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 01:01:45PM -0500, Uncle Wolf wrote: > > >I'm not sure I like Word Forces - it upsets the nice balance of the > > Forces, I think. Not really. It just makes a different balance. What is it in a word that's beyond the Corporeal, > > Ethereal and Celestial? That's a bit like asking "what is life?", I think. The closest answers I can think of are purpose or essence (not Essence). A Word is of the Corporeal, Ethereal and Celestial, but also transcends it. It seems clear to me that being bound to a Word is massively significant, and that it alters you in fundamental ways, and it would be nice (for some of us, at any rate) to have some way to measure this. I'm not sure the benefits of Word Forces is worth > > upsetting that balance. Couldn't the greater power of Word-bound > > Celestials be modelled in some other way? I suppose it could, but Word Forces have the grace of being self-consistent, and only being one mechanic. I quarrel with a definition of rules-light that includes 181 special powers, depending on what your character is. Attunements only available to > > Word-bounds perhaps? "You can store X extra Essence" where X depends > > on how strong the Word is in the world. Word Forces are the only method I've seen so far proposed to measure the strength of a Word, and the strength of a Celestial's connection to it. > tom here, and I agree with the above. To para-quote the Bene Gesserit of > _Dune_: The tripod is the most stable of forms and to be preferred when > there is any option. I can't say I find that a convincing argument, to be honest. Corporeal-Etherial-Celestial Forces make a stable > triangle and are congruent to the western ideas of Body-Mind-Soul. What > would Word Forces be comparable to? You can think of it as being like one of those things like pyramids, that have a triangular base. Anyway, I note that Charisma is outside the Corporeal-Ethereal-Celestial triangle, and I tend to think of it as being an attribute of a person rather than that person's body, so what's going on there? What lies within a player's > understanding that they can use to give them a leg up on roleplaying a > decidely non-human character with such an attribute? Attunements can at > least be modeled on browser plug-ins or the titles and powers one > encounters in the workplace. Besides, if we set a precedent for going > from non-Word Bound to Word Bound by adding Word-Forces, then what gets > added when you make the jump from Word Bound to Superior? I'm not sure if the difference is as big. To take Mage as an example, the difference between an Archmaster and a Novice (or whatever they're called) is not as great as that between a Novice and a mundane. Archmasters are greater, but do not possess an extra dimension. Remember, the > precedent has been set -- quantum jumps in power are handled by adding > an extra dimension, a new type of Force to the Celestial. I see it more as adding a new dimension to a Celestial giving a quantum jump in power. Words were always supposed to be a big thing. IMO, it is > much less complicated to say that the Celestial being hyped has his/her > Security Clearance "opened up" to allow access to Goodies that were > previously restricted -- the Celestial wasn't cleared to access the > Goodie [Song, Attunement, etc...] before. This looks like about half of what becoming a _Superior_ is, but the other half is actually losing a dimension; becoming accountable to noone except God or Lucifer. The Sword is no longer merely an aspect of Purity, but stands apart, of its own power. The Goodie was still there, > could still be used by others who _did_ have access -- all without > having to disassemble the Tinker-toy triangle of Forces that make up the > Celestial and rebuilding it as a square. Why do you think its necessary for the Seraphim Council or Lucifer to intervene, if it's only adding more goodies? Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:54:34 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: Life without Death? (was Re: IN> Newbie Nattering) On Tue, Jun 09, 1998 at 09:36:00PM -0300, Marcelo Soares wrote: > What would happen if Death was stripped of the Simphony, maybe there > is an Angel or even a Demon who was warded the word of Life, and intend to > make it more powerful, so he by some unknown means defeated Saminga and was > able to erased the word Death from the Simphony... now people, animals, > plants, angels and demons... and maybe, the dead people are getting back... > It's definitely an interesting idea, but I'd like to be the first to point out that death existed before Saminga and will exist after him, in canon. Already in canon the Archangel and the Demon Prince of the Ocean died, apparently without replacement, and oceans are still there. Oh, and the War would obviously lose much of its military dimension and become a struggle for hearts and minds. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:55:45 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Jesse L. Rooney wrote: "the bad guys are most often fat and have facial hair." Bugs Bunny's nemsis is Elmer Fudd, who doesn't have ANY hair. In Aladin, the villain was bearded but thin; the kindly old sultan was bearded and fat. In Anastasia, the villain is bearded and thin; one of the good-guy supporting characters is bearded and fat. I grant you certainly don't get fat or bearded heroes. But heroes almost always have to be handsome, and fat disqualifies them. Heroes also have to look pretty generic, and I think this rules out beards, which are popular but not the default at the moment. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:01:34 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Archangel Marc I tend to think of Marc as Archangel of the Fair Deal, that being pretty much the intersection of the concepts of Trade and Good. IN doesn't have an Archangel of Justice; I suppose Dominic is the first approximation to that, but Marc is probably the second. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:10:22 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Communism=Evil? John Karakash: > > Communism works great in a world where no one is selfish.. . > > I'm sorry, but this statement is fatuous and needs > to be commented on. The entire world, from the smallest > microbe on up is designed selfish.... > Try reading "The Selfish Gene". The basic premise > (which had been put forth before) is that our genetic > structures try to make the best zygote to reproduce itself. I didn't want to wade into a totally off-topic arg\\\discussion, but this is a minor hot-button of mine. The entire world is "selfish" only in a highly metaphorical sense. Literal selfishness is an act of deliberate choice by a moral agent who puts its own interests ahead of anothers. Microbes and zygotes don't qualify. They are not moral agents, they make no choices, and they don't even have "interests" except by an act of metaphorical projection by human observers. To drag this back somewhere within shouting range of IN, it is only the literal form of selfishness/selflessness that matters in IN. Otherwise, the whole biological world would be infernal in nature, which Jordi and Novalis would dispute. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:24:27 PDT From: "Bartholomew Hammerly" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia You could argue with that notion, yes, but remember that Michael is primarily concerned with the war between Heaven & Hell, and cares nothing for the materialistic gains that can be had from Earthly wars. Also, there is the important factor that the losing side can be economically crushed (not very good for trade), and the war torn countries of Africa's nations do not seem very prosoperous, except for their bloodsucking rulers. Pakistan and India, two of the poorest industrialized countries, certainly have gained the power to wage destructive war (this probably makes the Demon of Nuclear Destruction happy, at least). >From: Kevin Walsh >> In an effort to bring some on-topic content to this post, I will >> note that the medieval Church regarded the payment of interest as >> sinful. This could be the basis for a downright odd take on Marc, >> if anyone is interested. >> >I think that's been exaggerated somewhat. At least, it didn't stop the >Templars charging interest. Of course it also surprises me somewhat that >no one seems to have taken account of the fact that Trade (or at least >wealth) is necessary for War. You'd think Marc would be Michael's best >friend. Bart Hammerly Calabim of Fire "Time is the fire in which we burn." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:36:43 -0500 From: "David C. Shadle" Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia > I grant you certainly don't get fat or bearded heroes. Pheobus from Hunchback had a goatee, thats a type of beard. He was also the first Disney hero to have facial hair ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:39:29 PDT From: "Bartholomew Hammerly" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Archangel Marc Hate to burst your bubble, Em. Just because he's a new archangel, doesn't mean the word is new (of course, this could also just be an oversight in canon -- the horror!). Some other celestial may have held the word before him, and gotten trashed in some merger deal, or perhaps the word just wasn't considered important enough to protect until recently. Who knows? >From: Emily Dresner > >Indeed. This brings up the topic of Archangel Marc, who I think is given >the shaft by not only canon, but many GMs (me included here). I think the >strength and pervasiveness of his Word is often overlooked. > (snip wonderful incantation of Marc's worth) > >So that's my afternoon 2 cents. 2 cents? That's hardly impressive. -Marc > >- Em > > Bart Hammerly Calabim of Fire "Time is the fire in which we burn." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:58:08 -0400 From: "Robb Kidd" Subject: RE: Life without Death? (was Re: IN> Newbie Nattering) > It's definitely an interesting idea, but I'd like to be the first to point > out that death existed before Saminga and will exist after him, in canon. > [...] Gives me a warm fuzzy feeling picturing Terry Pratchett's Death listening in on this. Being a loyal Pratchettite, I've been batting around the idea of TP's Death in my game. Maybe an archangel. Maybe something more, ala Yves and Kronos. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:12:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Archangel Marc > Hate to burst your bubble, Em. Just because he's a new archangel, > doesn't mean the word is new (of course, this could also just be an > oversight in canon -- the horror!). Some other celestial may have held > the word before him, and gotten trashed in some merger deal, or perhaps > the word just wasn't considered important enough to protect until > recently. Who knows? I think it was just another canon oversight, actually. It's quite easy to do if you don't spend quality time translating ancient pieces of population census in dimly remembered languages. It would not be the first time. It will probably be fixed when the expanded Marc writeup comes out, whenever that will be. [I'm brought to mine Thothmosis III, as I usually am when talking about War and Trade, and the siege of the walled city of Megiddo during the Sixteeth Dynasty. I don't think there had ever been a siege of a city of that size before then, or since. Nonetheless, he surrounded it with chariots and then sat on the Levintine's supply lines for a few weeks, choking the city of supplies. Eventually, the people inside resorted to canabalism (no, I can't offhand remember the Egyptian word fo canabalism, ask me when I have a dictionary in hand) and Menkheperre just rode into the city, victorious. This is where the word for Armageddon comes from - The Fall of Megiddo. And this was 1500 B.C.] - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:43:38 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: IN> [Fluff] Humor from The Onion NOXIOUS MINIONS OF SATAN OFFER FREE INSTALLATION THROUGH JULY CHICAGO--In an exciting new promotion, the hideous mewling lackeys of the Dark Prince Lucifer are offering free installation of TCI cable to any household responding by July 31. "Act now and get great basic-cable channels like MTV, Nickelodeon and CNN with no installation fee," sniveled TCI customer-service representative Wyrmwort, faithful servant of the Lord Of Lies. "Plus, TCI offers you more great premium channels than ever, from HBO to Cinemax to the biggest blockbuster movies on pay-per-view." Wyrmwort then befouled his body with goat's blood and hailed The Great Deceiver. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:47:26 -0400 From: Afterburner Subject: IN> Canon? Here's an observation, and some related questions. (No judgment or criticism implied, nor should any be inferred.) I run a mailing list for the Deadlands RPG, and I participate in a list for the Planescape setting of AD&D (we pause here for the collective "Boo Hiss" from the thronging multitude). I've only been on the In Nomine list since this past Sunday, and I've seen the word "canon" mentioned more times in that week than it's ever been mentioned in the 10 months my Deadlands list has been around. And although you see it a bit more often in Planescape (vs. Deadlands), it still doesn't compare with the frequency on this list. Again, no judgment implied. But seemingly trivial differences like these fascinate me endlessly. Is the frequent use of the word "canon" with respect to the Official Rules(tm) a product of the folks who have collectively found themselves on this list (i.e. perhaps this list just happens to have a few folks who like the word "canon" and they've passed this on to the rest of the list in the same way one infects friends with catchy tunes?). Or does the game itself attract players who would be more inclined to be interested in canon (and refer to it by that word)? Afterburner Ofanite of Trivial Differences ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:47:00 -0700 From: "Gerry Mckelvey" Subject: IN> Horsemen. Something someone said earlier made me think of this...where exactly do the Horsemen of the Apocalypse fit into the In Nomine universe? I don't picture Saminga sitting astride a pale hores or talking to people like terry pratchitt's version of Death (THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS JUSTICE, THERE'S JUST ME...that's a quote, I'm not shouting...). Anyone out there read Good Omens? Anyway, where would the Four Horsemen be? Do they only appear when it's too late and gabriel has played that final note on her horn? Do they have a mansion in the Marches? is Death's horse really named Binky? inquiring minds want to know... Jerry McKelvey Exitus Acta Probat. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:47:00 -0700 From: "Gerry Mckelvey" Subject: IN> Horsemen. Something someone said earlier made me think of this...where exactly do the Horsemen of the Apocalypse fit into the In Nomine universe? I don't picture Saminga sitting astride a pale hores or talking to people like terry pratchitt's version of Death (THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS JUSTICE, THERE'S JUST ME...that's a quote, I'm not shouting...). Anyone out there read Good Omens? Anyway, where would the Four Horsemen be? Do they only appear when it's too late and gabriel has played that final note on her horn? Do they have a mansion in the Marches? is Death's horse really named Binky? inquiring minds want to know... Jerry McKelvey Exitus Acta Probat. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:01:20 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Emily Dresner wrote: > >I think in the In Nomine universe we tacitly pretend that nearly two >billion people don't exist, not counting the entire Indian >subcontinent, native African religions, Australian Bushmen, Voudoun, and >some of the more interesting aboriginal beliefs of North American and >South American Indians. At least, that's what I've gathered from the >List and the source books to date. Well, my solution was straightforward. All religions except for Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are comprehensively and completely wrong about the nature of the universe, God, and the purpose of existence. There you go. Problem solved. It's just that SJG probably has a harder time making this simple a statement, as ecumenism seems pretty well enough of a mental reflex that defying it would bring huge flames down upon them. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:01:36 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Communism=Evil? John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > >> Communism works great in a world where no one is selfish.. . > > I'm sorry, but this statement is fatuous and needs >to be commented on. The entire world, from the smallest >microbe on up is designed selfish. Communism works well >in a world where no one is HUMAN. Or even terrestrial. >Numerous theoretical systems can work if you have identical >or mindless components that work perfectly in sync. Sorry, >but we have to live in the real world. By saying, "communism >works great in a world where no one is selfish" you are >basically saying, "Communism work well in fantasy worlds >unconnected to anything real." Careful there -- you are overstating your case. The kibbutzim are a real-world example of communal societies that worked in practice. They have real problems trying to scale up beyond a few thousand members, because coordination problems becomes intractable, and because members stop being able to track individual reputations to determine who is obeying social norms. These are probably intractable problems, but a commune is a viable small community. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:00:48 EDT From: Gruzzle@aol.com Subject: IN> Re: the whole Commie this, Commie that thing. Go back to russia ya commies and let's talk about something else, please? Like why is it that every time I turn on the radio I hear the same three songs fifteen times a day for five months? Funk dat! Now, what brainwashing people into enjoying this horrendous music has anything to do with Nybbas' advancement is beyond me, but then again, I don't think like a Demon Prince... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:00:26 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Canon? Afterburner wrote: > Is the frequent use of the word "canon" with > respect to the Official Rules(tm) a product of the folks who have > collectively found themselves on this list (i.e. perhaps this list > just happens to have a few folks who like the word "canon" and > they've passed this on to the rest of the list in the same way one > infects friends with catchy tunes?). Or does the game itself > attract players who would be more inclined to be interested in > canon (and refer to it by that word)? I think the game itself invites the use of the word "canon." Perhaps the commonest meaning of "canon" is a list of authoritative books used as holy scripture. The religious theme of the game makes "canon" more than usually appropriate. Also, the game is perhaps more than usually structured. It has a large cast of very important NPCs (the Superiors), who invite a lot of attention and various forms of construal. This may mean more argument about what is and is not "canonical," though of course we could have said "official" or "standard" instead, if it weren't for the pull of the theological term. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:05:13 PDT From: "Bartholomew Hammerly" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Canon? I would expect an obsessive use of the word "Canon" in a game that involves religious incarnations, Heaven, and Hell. Or maybe we just visited by the Angel (or Demon) of Catch Phrases. >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > > Here's an observation, and some related questions. (No judgment or >criticism implied, nor should any be inferred.) > > I run a mailing list for the Deadlands RPG, and I participate in a >list for the Planescape setting of AD&D (we pause here for the collective >"Boo Hiss" from the thronging multitude). I've only been on the In Nomine >list since this past Sunday, and I've seen the word "canon" mentioned more >times in that week than it's ever been mentioned in the 10 months my >Deadlands list has been around. And although you see it a bit more often >in Planescape (vs. Deadlands), it still doesn't compare with the frequency Planescape is one of the coolest additions to AD&D. No boos here. >on this list. > > Again, no judgment implied. But seemingly trivial differences like >these fascinate me endlessly. Is the frequent use of the word "canon" with >respect to the Official Rules(tm) a product of the folks who have >collectively found themselves on this list (i.e. perhaps this list just >happens to have a few folks who like the word "canon" and they've passed >this on to the rest of the list in the same way one infects friends with >catchy tunes?). Or does the game itself attract players who would be more >inclined to be interested in canon (and refer to it by that word)? Bart Hammerly Calabim of Fire, Demon of Catch Phrases "It's better to burn out, then to fade away." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:18:21 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Canon? Afterburner wrote: > > Again, no judgment implied. But seemingly trivial differences like > these fascinate me endlessly. Is the frequent use of the word "canon" with > respect to the Official Rules(tm) a product of the folks who have > collectively found themselves on this list (i.e. perhaps this list just > happens to have a few folks who like the word "canon" and they've passed > this on to the rest of the list in the same way one infects friends with > catchy tunes?). Or does the game itself attract players who would be more > inclined to be interested in canon (and refer to it by that word)? I'm not sure who started the use of the word 'canon' on this mailing list. I know I used it fairly early on, but can't claim to have been the first. Very likely it was several people at nearly the same time. The use of the term is natural in a game about angels and demons since 'canon' is a church term to describe the code of laws that it abides by. Many In Nomine players have studied the bible or were interested in religious topics before playing the game (at least more then the average role-player by my estimation). My guess is that the word was known to quite a few on the list and after it got used once or twice it just caught on. It's more concise than 'official rules' and it has a nicely religious flavor. Anyone feel like doing a search on all the posts since the lists inception (if they even still exist)? ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:08:28 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Archangel Marc At 12:37 10/06/98 -0400, you wrote: > > >Somewhere along the line it was written that Archangel Marc was rather >young, for an Archangel. Where does it say that? (Just curious because that hadn't been my impression, so it must have been on one of the sourcebooks I haven't read. I'd assumed he must have been working pretty much alongside David for most of the time (poor thing!)) jo "Whatever was required to be done, the Circumlocution Office was before hand with all the public departments in the art of perceiving HOW NOT TO DO IT." -- Dickens (Little Dorrit) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:46:50 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Communism=Evil? Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > These are probably intractable problems, but a commune is a viable > small community. Well, I made that point in an earlier post (or perhaps that one...in the interest of brevity, so much gets left out when replying!). On a small scale it can work. The typical family or small business does so. A commune is merely an extended family of sorts... but it depends strongly on those who 'dictate' actually being the best ones to lead (usually easy to determine in a small group) and that s/he knows the strengths and weaknesses of the rest. Many small communities (there's that root word again!) or tribes experience many small failures in working out this arrangement with little long-term problems. As you say, it's when you try to extend this concept to a group of people that is into the low ten digits at times. Another difference between communes and communism is that communes are typically founded by people with a common idea about how things should work and their children. Any communes that _force_ people to stay within their confines quickly devolves from the ideal of universal acceptance of the precepts of the community. Now, any system of governing has rules that limit and protect, but ones that deem it better to kill their members merely for trying to leave the system... shudder. This brings up an interesting point in In Nomine. Hell potrays Heaven as dictatorial, but the angels of Heaven have, so some believe, the free will to leave if they wish. This is what grates many people concerning Dominic: his " your for us or against us attitude." The irony is that Hell is just as enthusiastic about chasing its own renegades. Heaven is closer to a human commune while Hell is very close to the 'real world' version of communism (with a strong dose of behind-the-scenes horse trading going on). - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:47:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Archangel Marc > >Somewhere along the line it was written that Archangel Marc was rather > >young, for an Archangel. > > > Where does it say that? (Just curious because that hadn't been my > impression, so it must have been on one of the sourcebooks I haven't read. > I'd assumed he must have been working pretty much alongside David for most > of the time (poor thing!)) I saw it somewhere, Jo. I saw it somewhere really recently, too, so I'm thinking the APG/IPG history sections. (Someone will come along and correct me... any moment now). It stuck in my memory for some odd reason, up there with how many Popes have been named John, and it just surfaced in a moment of raving psychosis. I would think he was pretty old, myself. I think he just gets underplayed. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:52:37 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > In an effort to bring some on-topic content to this post, I will > note that the medieval Church regarded the payment of interest as > sinful. This could be the basis for a downright odd take on Marc, > if anyone is interested. Hr.... Usury between Christians was considered sinful. Paying interest to Jews, or charging interest from the same, was not considered wrong. And exactly what 'usury' constituted was a matter for debate; *any* interest was one theory, interest not proportional to the risks another, interest over 20% a third ... I'm sure there were more. I understand it was considered okay (at least at some times) to charge interest for _damages_ if a loan was not paid back in time. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:38:39 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Archangel Marc At 2:12 PM -0400 6/10/98, Emily Dresner wrote: >> Hate to burst your bubble, Em. Just because he's a new archangel, Hm. He's an AA somewhere since after the Fall, when Lucifer thought that Lilith would *oppose* him. This may be "new" in some ways (Yves has been around a *lot* longer, fer instance), but he's not so young as, say, Laurence. Now, if someone will point me to where it *says* Marc is 'young,' I'll see if anything needs errata, or if it's just a case of 'relatively young, compared to Eli and Jordi and folks who've been around AGES.' - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:24:29 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia At 9:53 AM -0400 6/10/98, Emily Dresner wrote: >> BTW, has anyone done anything with China? I mean, >> it has over a billion people... surely both sides of the War >> have interests over there. > >Buddhists, Taoists, Confucists, Neo-Confucists, Communism based Atheists - >I was under the impression that, in the In Nomine universe, we were at >some sort of angry armed truce over not touching religions outside of the >Big Three. It's like this: I don't want to get them *wrong*. So if someone wants to do the *research*..... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:19:21 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Communism=Evil? At 8:40 AM -0400 6/10/98, Afterburner wrote: >>> You can be a communist, but running for office as a a communist or >>> socialist is still illegal. Just ask Bernie Sanders. >> >>Are you sure about Socialist registered participants? Until fairly recently >>Vermont had a Socialist Governor. > > I suspect he's wrong. Surely such a law would fly directly into the face >of the 1st Amendment. - --Demon Princess Beth, list admin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:56:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Shumaker Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: #Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia # #At 9:53 AM -0400 6/10/98, Emily Dresner wrote: #>> BTW, has anyone done anything with China? I mean, #>> it has over a billion people... surely both sides of the War #>> have interests over there. #> #>Buddhists, Taoists, Confucists, Neo-Confucists, Communism based Atheists - #>I was under the impression that, in the In Nomine universe, we were at #>some sort of angry armed truce over not touching religions outside of the #>Big Three. # # # #It's like this: I don't want to get them *wrong*. # #So if someone wants to do the *research*..... # Hmm, not to cause any problem here, but Christainity/Judiasm/Muslim was not completely correct either. Granted, it is very hard to get a globally "correct" interpretation of these religions as they are so widely praticed in many forms. Jim Shumaker ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:02:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia > >Buddhists, Taoists, Confucists, Neo-Confucists, Communism based Atheists - > >I was under the impression that, in the In Nomine universe, we were at > >some sort of angry armed truce over not touching religions outside of the > >Big Three. > > > > It's like this: I don't want to get them *wrong*. > > So if someone wants to do the *research*..... I have a whole shelf at home dedicated to this stuff. Okay, I have many a bookshelf, but having a whole shelf is a pretty nice collection of Chinese Philosophy books, which is analagous to the collection of Western Philospohy. (I did pretty well in those classes in College too... I can't remember who conned me into it, but Dr. Monroe turned out to be pretty keen.) I was a real junky for a while. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:06:25 -0400 From: Afterburner Subject: Re: IN> Communism=Evil? >In Nomine> * Afterburner whistles innocently and looks around at nothing in particular... AB (Who, granted, should know better, since he runs his own mailing list and is wrestling with the self-same problem regarding an on-going Anime thread and its utter lack of relevance to Deadlands.) (I blame my parents. But sometimes I just can't resist. I try harder next time, you betcha.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:30:32 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia At 1:56 PM -0700 6/10/98, Jim Shumaker wrote: >On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >#At 9:53 AM -0400 6/10/98, Emily Dresner wrote: >#>Buddhists, Taoists, Confucists, Neo-Confucists, Communism based Atheists - >#>I was under the impression that, in the In Nomine universe, we were at >#>some sort of angry armed truce over not touching religions outside of the >#>Big Three. ># ># >#It's like this: I don't want to get them *wrong*. >#So if someone wants to do the *research*..... > >Hmm, not to cause any problem here, but Christainity/Judiasm/Muslim was >not completely correct either. Granted, it is very hard to get a >globally "correct" interpretation of these religions as they are so widely >praticed in many forms. If something is "wrong" or "over-simplified" or missing, then do the research and submit a Pyramid article that covers the gaps in an interesting and useful-for-gaming way, which is also tolerably consistant with the gameworld as it has been presented so far. And then you will be happy because it has been non-ignored, and I will be happy because I have s'more interesting material, and everyone else will hopefully be happy because they don't have to make it up personally. Besides, near as I can tell, in the IN universe, there *is* no one religion that is totally "correct" and "true," so on some fronts, this is not required... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:26:42 -0400 From: Afterburner Subject: Re: IN> Newbie Nattering >Have you checked out Dark VIctory yet? (It's on the INC) INC? I'm guessing the "IN" in "INC" stands for In Nomine, but the "C" part has me stumped... AB (Keeping an eye peeled for moderators...) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:28:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Kim Foster Subject: IN> Are Demons still bad? This might seem strange, but I was wondering if anyone runs Demons as the villians anymore? From alot of discussion about games on this list it seems more in fashion to present them as anything ranging from tragic heroes to just misunderstood neutrals. Lilim and Servants of Dark Humour seem to get this "lightening up" treatment the most. Angels seems to get portrayed as endlessly bloodthirsty (Malakim), clueless ( Novalis often seems to be portrayed in this light) or simply no "better" than Demons just with diffrent powers and bosses. I know violence doesn't solve all problems... But it sure feels good! Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 00:28:43 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Re: Willy Wonka, what is he? I think willy wonka is a servant of creation on loan to dream. Shadowcat P.S. the quote is "We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams" Shadowcat All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:03:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Eslin Subject: Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Kim Foster wrote: > This might seem strange, but I was wondering if anyone runs Demons as the > villians anymore? From alot of discussion about games on this list it seems > more in fashion to present them as anything ranging from tragic heroes to > just misunderstood neutrals. Lilim and Servants of Dark Humour seem to get > this "lightening up" treatment the most. Once again the Fiat Justitia page comes up - http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~maya/nomine/fiat.html - as if everyone hasn't seen it enough bloody times already. :) I recommend scrolling down to Day Six, and reading the "Descent" and "All Judgement Lost" logs. One Balseraph of the Game - and not one in a particular hurry, at that. That should settle the 'villain' question Real Fast. :) Admittedly, Fiat appears at the moment to be on the "Lilim and Dark Humor are nice!" side. It isn't. We have a just-Redeemed Lilim who is still protective of his Sisters; we have a situation in which being slightly protective of Dark Humor is a chance to stomp on the Game; this doesn't mean that we think Dark Humor is nice. We are failing to slaughter a Bal of the Media for the moment. This doesn't mean we think the Media is nice. It just means that they seem, at the moment, to be the lesser of evils. (The emphasis is on 'seem'...) > Angels seems to get portrayed as endlessly bloodthirsty (Malakim), clueless > ( Novalis often seems to be portrayed in this light) or simply no "better" > than Demons just with diffrent powers and bosses. Really? Are you sure you're not mistaking the silliness (the James Bond trailers, for instance) for the actual conversations? I'll gladly yield your point on the Malakim, but Novalis I haven't seen portrayed on here as porticularly fluffy in other than silliness, and the 'no better than demons' attitude has generally been for intentionally fringe games. Or have I been missing something? :) - eslin@buffnet.net Chephirah, Cherub of Destiny, Fiat Justitia ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #818 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.