From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jun 11 21:04:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA32693 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:04:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id UAA29355 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:42:27 -0500 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:42:27 -0500 Message-Id: <199806120142.UAA29355@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #820 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, June 11 1998 Volume 01 : Number 820 In this digest: IN/Paranoia (was Re: IN> Communism=Evil?) Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? Re: IN> Tethers Re: IN> Animals? Re: IN> Communism=Evil? Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? Re: Life without Death? (was Re: IN> Newbie Nattering) IN> Stealing IN> IN/Paranoia Crossover [Was: Communism=Evil?] IN> Communism-neutral, demons-bad, buddhism write-up"very,very good Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? Re: IN> Communism=Evil? Re: IN> IN/Paranoia Crossover [Was: Communism=Evil?] Re: IN> Re: Willy Wonka, what is he? Re: IN> IN/Paranoia Crossover [Was: Communism=Evil?] Re: IN> Stealing Re: IN> Re: Willy Wonka, what is he? Re: IN> IN/Paranoia Crossover [Was: Communism=Evil?] Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Re: IN> Stealing Re: IN> IN/Paranoia Crossover [Was: Communism=Evil?] Re: IN> Buddhist In Nomine Revised Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Re: IN> Stealing Re: IN> Buddhist In Nomine Revised RE: IN> Buddhist In Nomine Revised IN> Absolute Morality in In Nomine Crossover Games (was Re: IN> Communism=Evil?) IN> Djinn of Lust... (Re: Disney's Infernal Communists) Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 Jun 1998 10:02:53 -0600 From: jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu (Jason F. McBrayer) Subject: IN/Paranoia (was Re: IN> Communism=Evil?) >>>>> "AG" == Anders Gabrielsson writes: AG> To get this back on track... IN/Paranoia cross-over anyone? :) I see it as a kind of Vapulan Victory :) Heaven is clearly winning the War: human advances in technology and diplomacy combine to produce, if not a utopia, in general a pretty nice place to live. People's needs are attended to by a massive global network of computers called Alpha Complex, one of Orc's greatest triumphs. Peace and prosperity rule, and Hell is kinda glum. Then, the MegaWhoops happens. A variety of Vapulan-engineered coincidences lead to most of the San Francisco Alpha Simplex's memory being removed for maintenance at the same time an approaching comet is detected. Searching its remaining memory (mostly historical files), the Alpha Simplex computer decides that the comet is an incoming Communist missile, broadcasts warnings to the other Alpha Simplexes, and refuses contact with the central Alpha Complex processor. Then the comet strikes, destroying all humanity has worked so hard to achieve. Two hundred years later.... Vapula has prospered beyond his wildest dreams. Not only does the bulk of humanity serve crazed and malfunctioning paranoid computers, humans only reproduce by cloning, people have strange mutant powers, and Vapula has a tether in every Alpha Complex R&D lab. Malphas sows more paranoia by creating secret societies left and right. Death comes suddenly and for no better reason than an Infrared drone's moment of inattention on the BouncyBubblyBeverage production line leading to the filling of the bottles with concentrated industrial acid, to the amusement of Dark Humor. The Media produces Teela-O-MLY videos for the numbing of the Infrareds. There's a new Demon Prince of Treason. No one has seen a Flower or any Animal larger than a cockroach for longer than anyone can remember. There's plenty of War, but only of the most brutal and fratricidal kind. Trade is treasonous. Judgement is reduced to summary execution for poor hygiene. Vessels are cheap, at least---everyone gets six! - -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu | | The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must hide Yhtill | | forever. R.W. Chambers _The King in Yellow_ | ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 1998 09:45:53 -0600 From: jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu (Jason F. McBrayer) Subject: Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? >>>>> "C" == Casca writes: C> On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Kim Foster wrote: >> This might seem strange, but I was wondering if anyone runs Demons >> as the villians anymore? C> Ayup. I have flatly stated that I will never, ever run a Demon C> game, and if any player wanted a demonic PC, then it had better be C> a Renegade in search of Redemption. C> Demons are evil incarnate. They do nasty horrible things for C> kicks. I have a very hard time envisioning them in any sort of C> sympathetic light. What about Marcus in "A Dark Dream"? He's pretty sympathetic. What about Crowley in _Good Omens_? In my upcoming game (angelic PC's), demons will be pretty bad. But so will angels, as I'm following _The Prophecy_'s take on angelic behavior: whenever God wants to ruin someone's life, he sends an angel. This makes quite a bit of sense in my game, as I'm working on a Gnostic setting, in which the Creator is evil---both demons and angels are Archons (Rulers), entirely Jaldabaoth's creations, while humans are the combined product of Jaldabaoth (the Demiurge) and Pistis Sophia. Humans are the "good guys," though some Ethereal spirits and Outcast angels are on humanity's side. Then there's always the Secret Masters, whose identity and goals will hopefully be the focus of later stages of the campaign. I decided on angels for my players just because I wouldn't expect demons to be as shocked to find out that the Creator is evil. Also there are only two ways you can run sympathetic demons: Paranoia (as in "A Dark Dream"), and World of Ennui. In some ways it's unfortunate, as my players (mostly graduate students) identify more with demons than with angels. - -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu | | The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must hide Yhtill | | forever. R.W. Chambers _The King in Yellow_ | ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 98 14:19 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Tethers >Walter Milliken wrote: >> In fact, the canon bits I'm writing now on Tethers, they all start out >> as "wild", and the celestial end manifests in places the Tether has an >> affinity to (i.e., the celestial location has a strong Word-connection >> to whatever event formed the Tether). The Superior then has to >> "capture" the Tether and stabilize it. > >I really like that. (See, I don't disagree with everything on principle :) Hey, I liked the stuff you did on Words and Word Forces, so maybe we're even.... >). Being a celestial cartographer might be quite a fun little job. Every >superior must need some, if only to point out hitherto unknown geographical >features which might turn out to be newly manifest and untamed >tether-points. Yes. I've got a line or two in there about that -- demons especially go looking for the celestial ends of "wild" Tethers, since they expect to get a reward for reporting them. Unfortunately, the Tether may drift away before the Superior gets the word.... But I'll bet there are a lot of "Tether prospectors" among demons, in the hopes of the Big Score.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:28:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Animals? On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Hart, Joanna wrote: > Can animals become soldiers of God? Yes. Eli made a dog into a Soldier - it's in NM. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! | "Fuck 'Em If They Can't Take A Joke is more than just a meaningless | | slogan; it's actually a pretty serious statement, and one that I hold | | true to, with a cream pie in one hand and a chainsaw in the other..." | | -- Me | ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 1998 13:42:15 -0600 From: jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu (Jason F. McBrayer) Subject: Re: IN> Communism=Evil? >>>>> "ED" == Emily Dresner writes: >> Yeah, but then Alpha Complex is more communist than any Real Life state >> that I've heard of... :) >> >> To get this back on track... IN/Paranoia cross-over anyone? :) ED> I hear that Dom-I-NIC is in charge of the Master Computer. :) No, Internal Security (IntSec). Obviously, Your Friend the Computer is directly administered by Luc-I-FER-1 (wonder why he doesn't have Ultraviolet clearance?). Maybe High Programmer Vap-U-LAA-3 knows. - -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu | | The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must hide Yhtill | | forever. R.W. Chambers _The King in Yellow_ | ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 98 14:43 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? >What about Marcus in "A Dark Dream"? He's pretty sympathetic. Only somewhat -- the story about the dog isn't what I'd call "good".... Marcus' main sympathy point is his attachment to Nicole, I think, despite the fact that she's kind of nasty at times. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:17:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? On 11 Jun 1998, Jason F. McBrayer wrote: > What about Marcus in "A Dark Dream"? He's pretty sympathetic. Marcus bites a man's thumb off, betrays his only real friend to a squad of Malakim (fortunately for Charlie, Nicole was lying), and simultaneously manages to kill a dog in a particularly brutal manner, traumatize a family, and ruin a veteranarian's career. Oh yeah, that's sympathetic. > What about Crowley in _Good Omens_? Haven't read it. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:22:19 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? > What about Crowley in _Good Omens_? Well, he's not an IN demon, for a start. For a second, he's described in the Dramatis Personae as a demon who "did not so much fall as wander vaguely downward," so he's a pretty half-baked demon even in terms of his own setting. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:27:06 -0300 From: Marcelo Soares Subject: Re: Life without Death? (was Re: IN> Newbie Nattering) At 17:54 10/06/1998 +0100, Kevin Walsh wrote: >On Tue, Jun 09, 1998 at 09:36:00PM -0300, Marcelo Soares wrote: >> What would happen if Death was stripped of the Simphony, maybe there >> is an Angel or even a Demon who was warded the word of Life, and intend to >> make it more powerful, so he by some unknown means defeated Saminga and was >> able to erased the word Death from the Simphony... now people, animals, >> plants, angels and demons... and maybe, the dead people are getting back... >> >It's definitely an interesting idea, but I'd like to be the first to point >out that death existed before Saminga and will exist after him, in canon. >Already in canon the Archangel and the Demon Prince of the Ocean died, >apparently without replacement, and oceans are still there. Oh, and the >War would obviously lose much of its military dimension and become a >struggle for hearts and minds. Yeah, but I believe there is a great difference between the Archangel or Demon Prince of something being dead and the word still exists... from erasing a word from the Symphony. Hmmm... like if you could really erase, delete, break a part of something and take it somewhere else. I know death existed before Saminga and probably will exist forever... but if an Archangel or a Demon Prince could be so powerful to make something so big as interfering in God's creation... by picking something of the world. Like he could really perceive the Symphony as music and took all Death notes from that music... then you wouldn't have a word "Death" in the Symphony, right? Therefore you wouldn't have Death in the world anymore, right? "Hello, I love you won't you tell me your name. Hello, I love you let me jump in yopur game." Doors Marcelo Soares ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:37:53 -0500 (CDT) From: Martin Leslie Leuschen Subject: IN> Stealing From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia > Wealth is hard to generate without trade, but it's > possible. Wealth can be _procured_ without trade, though. > It's called stealing. Most governments will call it > liberating, confiscating, or 'spoils of war'. You forgot the most common term: "taxation." Regards, Martin Leuschen martinl@rice.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:45:19 -0700 From: Pol Jackson Subject: IN> IN/Paranoia Crossover [Was: Communism=Evil?] Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > To get this back on track... IN/Paranoia cross-over anyone? :) "Trust The Lord. The Lord is your friend." *shudder* Pjack ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:42:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Venedam Subject: IN> Communism-neutral, demons-bad, buddhism write-up"very,very good Communism is simply a political philosophy, I don't think the angels or demosn would think of it as inherently good or evil. The fact that Stalin killed more people than Hitler must make the demons very happy, though. But more generally, I'm sure the angels would be happy to support a good communist, and demons must love the CEO's of major corporations. I don't think there are some demons that are simply not good, instead of being bad. Tomas's buddy in night music, the demon of volume(not sure of his name, or his exact word) is portrayed as not really a bad guy, and I believe that some demons are like that. But most demons, at least in my opinion, are BAD. Lilim typically will do innocuous little favors for someone, so they can get a person to kill a little boys parents. Dark Humor demons will taunt and torture some teens until they become violent, bitter misanthropes(the demon of high school surely is under Kobal). Just because some demons are not bad(good would be pushing it) doesn't change the fact that most are evil, evil creatures(again, though, I'd point out that the worst of humans make even the worst of demons shudder) And whoever wrote up Buddhism as an IN topic: excellent. I really liked it. Monothesim may be closer to the truth in some ways than Buddhism, but any philosophy that would help humans reach their Destiny would be great for the angels. Charlie V. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:09:59 -0400 From: eswhanu@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 03:59:32 -0400 (EDT) Casca writes: >On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Kim Foster wrote: > >Ayup. I have flatly stated that I will never, ever run a Demon game, >and >if any player wanted a demonic PC, then it had better be a Renegade in > >search of Redemption. > > >Lemme illustrate how -I- see Kobal. > >We're all gamers, so I can reasonably assume that at some point, we >hve >been referred to as freaks, geeks, or nerds. While we are now at the>point where these labels no longer hurt us, when we were in high >school >it was a different story. There was always -someone- who seemed to >take >evil joy in making fun of us, ridiculing in front of the popular >crowd, >making us the butt of cruel jokes. And this person was usually on the >football team or the cheerleading squad, depending on gender, and was >immensely attractive and popular. Remember that person? > >-That's- Kobal. Try this one: There was a guy, who was attractive, popular, and reminded you all the time that if you didn't see things his way, bad stuff would happen. No one would want to be around you, no one would care about you, and even God wouldn't love you if you didn't believe that things were a certain way, and didn't follow the way that they did. That is Laurence. You know, the commander of God's Armies that is trying to get everyone to convert to Christianity? Remember, it's a game, and being evil in real life is one thing (it's bad, and I don't recommend it, as it generates bad kamma). Playing evil in a game is another. Maybe if you ran a Demon game, you would get a chance to play more angel 'antagonists', as opposed to having to run demons yourself all the time. And the players would see how evil demons can be, being in the driver's seat and able to see the behind the scenes actions that angels don't get to see. In theory, angels are selfless, demons are selfish. In practice, this has a lot of latitude (I consider Druriel from NM more evil than Wrench, the Demon of Amps). Brian Ward > >-- Casca, Seraph of Archives >(bertishg@db.erau.edu) > >"...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train >of >His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six >wings: >with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their >feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the > >doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." > -- Isaiah >6:2,4 > > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:23:44 -0400 From: "Mark McKenzie" Subject: Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? eswhanu@juno.com wrote: > - -snip- > In theory, angels are selfless, demons are selfish. In practice, > this has a lot of latitude (I consider Druriel from NM more evil than > Wrench, the Demon of Amps). > In theory, angels obey orders willingly, and demons do so only under duress. In practice (within the IN canon, anyhow), this is highly variable. Obedience (or the lack thereof) may be a function of selflessness (or the lack thereof); they seem to be interconnected, at any rate. Angels are assumed to trust the wisdom, experience and authority of their Superiors (and, by extention, the Deity of your campaign's choice); Demons are assumed to trust no one at all, and follow directives only when there is an obvious personal benefit for doing so and/or severe personal punishment for failing same. This is accurately simulated in any mid-sized corporate office enviroment... - -- Mark McKenzie E-mail: markadv@kinekom.com ICQ 7946364 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:34:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Kim Foster Subject: Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? > >Try this one: > >There was a guy, who was attractive, popular, and reminded you all the >time that if you didn't see things his way, bad stuff would happen. No >one would want to be around you, no one would care about you, and even >God wouldn't love you if you didn't believe that things were a certain >way, and didn't follow the way that they did. > That is Laurence. You know, the commander of God's Armies that is >trying to get everyone to convert to Christianity? > Well, in the context of the game this is true. There is a Heaven. There's a Hell and if you mess up to badly you end up there and no will like you, or help you or care about you Laurance is trying to help, perhaps in an overzealous manner but still not selfishly. Christianity is one of the potential paths to find your Destiny and its the one Laurence chooses to promote. Laurence gets a bad rap it seems, as he promotes "mainstream" religious ideals. It doesn't say anywhere he persecutes the "unholy" or anything of that manner. (I would attribute that sort of thing to Malphas....) When you boil it down, it seems all religions say "if you don't believe/do - -this- something -bad- will happen to you". Just the defination of the emphasised words is diffrent. I can't help but wonde if Laurence promoted somethnig less conservative and traditional would he he get as bad an image as he seems to have. > Remember, it's a game, and being evil in real life is one thing >(it's bad, and I don't recommend it, as it generates bad kamma). Playing >evil in a game is another. Maybe if you ran a Demon game, you would get >a chance to play more angel 'antagonists', as opposed to having to run >demons yourself all the time. And the players would see how evil demons >can be, being in the driver's seat and able to see the behind the scenes >actions that angels don't get to see. > In theory, angels are selfless, demons are selfish. In practice, >this has a lot of latitude (I consider Druriel from NM more evil than >Wrench, the Demon of Amps). > And Druiel is close to Falling and becoming a Demon. Wrench is, as someone else put it not -good- more so than evil but stll one of the things he does is destroy people's hearing on a fairly regular basis. I know violence doesn't solve all problems... But it sure feels good! Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:34:54 -0500 From: "David C. Shadle" Subject: Re: IN> Communism=Evil? > No, Hell is closer to Alpha Complex, and you know what happens to > Commies in Alpha Complex, don't you Citizen? Hell probably even has > Food Vats, Crunch-E-TYM Algae Flakes, Fizz-Wizz, and Teela O'Malley > videos, though I'm not about to even guess in which Principality. I know what principality, but your not cleared for that information The computer is your friend ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:48:10 -0500 From: "David C. Shadle" Subject: Re: IN> IN/Paranoia Crossover [Was: Communism=Evil?] > > To get this back on track... IN/Paranoia cross-over anyone? :) > > "Trust The Lord. The Lord is your friend." > Trust noone, and keep your holy pistol handy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:46:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Re: Willy Wonka, what is he? On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Redneck Gaijin wrote: > >I think willy wonka is a servant of creation on loan to dream. > > > Willy Wonka is a fictional character. I know that. It was a coment on the character, not a person. > Roald Dahl, creator of Willy Wonka and writer of several other children's > stories, was secretly Roaldiel, an Ofanite of Creation in service to > Christopher, Archangel of Children. How do you account for "Roald Dahls Book Of Ghost Stories"? It is deffinatly NOT for children. > Shadowcat All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:30:34 -0400 From: Afterburner Subject: Re: IN> IN/Paranoia Crossover [Was: Communism=Evil?] >>> To get this back on track... IN/Paranoia cross-over anyone? :) >> "Trust The Lord. The Lord is your friend." >Trust noone, and keep your holy pistol handy Being a renegade demon is treasonous, and is punishable by summary execution. AB ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:30:40 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jesse L. Rooney" Subject: Re: IN> Stealing >Wealth is hard to generate without trade, but it's > > possible. Wealth can be _procured_ without trade, though. > > It's called stealing. Most governments will call it > > liberating, confiscating, or 'spoils of war'. > > You forgot the most common term: "taxation." Taxation is not theft, it is the payment for services rendered. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:31:44 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Re: Willy Wonka, what is he? >On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Redneck Gaijin wrote: > >> >I think willy wonka is a servant of creation on loan to dream. >> > >> Willy Wonka is a fictional character. > > I know that. It was a coment on the character, not a person. The character is, and must be, totally human, an example of humanity surpassing even the capacity of celestials. > >> Roald Dahl, creator of Willy Wonka and writer of several other children's >> stories, was secretly Roaldiel, an Ofanite of Creation in service to >> Christopher, Archangel of Children. > > How do you account for "Roald Dahls Book Of Ghost Stories"? It is >deffinatly NOT for children. > That book is why I say he is a Creationer serving Children, not the other way around. And that book, I suspect, got him into some serious hot water.... Redneck Kris Overstreet, web pages beyond belief http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/milkmaid/ - The Magnificent Milkmaid ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:33:36 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jesse L. Rooney" Subject: Re: IN> IN/Paranoia Crossover [Was: Communism=Evil?] On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, David C. Shadle wrote: > > > To get this back on track... IN/Paranoia cross-over anyone? :) > > > > "Trust The Lord. The Lord is your friend." > > > > Trust noone, and keep your holy pistol handy > That is the X-Files/IN/Monty Python's Flying Circus crossover. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:07:57 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia At 10:28 PM -0800 6/10/98, Armand wrote: >> >>> I grant you certainly don't get fat or bearded heroes. >>Pheobus from Hunchback had a goatee, thats a type of beard. He was also the >>first Disney hero to have facial hair > >What about the Beast? Every last inch was covered in hair, but in the end, >he was blond haired and blue-eyed. No facial hair either. However, when >they do remakes, they don't use the defurred Beast. That's because he's *cuter* as Beast. (He's so... boring, as a human. No fur. Not nearly cuddly enough. Hmph.) To yank things to IN-land. Would the Beast have counted as a Djinn? Rather cuddly, if so... (And then there's the Lust-Djinn I came up with, which, in celestial form, looks like a scaly mountain lion with horizontal pupils, 3 prehensile tails, and 3 tongues. It likes to lick its nose and "whisker" pads simultaneously... Obviously showing off.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:55:30 -0400 From: "Mark McKenzie" Subject: Re: IN> Stealing Jesse L. Rooney wrote: > > >Wealth is hard to generate without trade, but it's > > > possible. Wealth can be _procured_ without trade, though. > > > It's called stealing. Most governments will call it > > > liberating, confiscating, or 'spoils of war'. > > > > You forgot the most common term: "taxation." > > Taxation is not theft, it is the payment for services rendered. > Usually paid far in advance of the services being rendered (if ever), at non-negotiable prices set by the service provider. Often at gunpoint, or its moral and functional equivalent. YMMV. - -- Mark McKenzie E-mail: markadv@kinekom.com ICQ 7946364 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:14:31 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN/Paranoia Crossover [Was: Communism=Evil?] At 5:30 PM -0400 6/11/98, Afterburner wrote: >>>> To get this back on track... IN/Paranoia cross-over anyone? :) > >>> "Trust The Lord. The Lord is your friend." > >>Trust noone, and keep your holy pistol handy > >Being a renegade demon is treasonous, and is punishable by summary execution. But that's the way it *already* works. Trust the Game, Servitor. The Game is your friend. - --Beth, Demon Princess of Nitpicking http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Demons/Prince.Beth.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 07:10:25 +0900 From: Dave Conrad Subject: Re: IN> Buddhist In Nomine Revised > Valefor: The Prince of theft is in no way a Buddhist. He is deeply > attached to material objects and might as well focus on those mortals who > are as well. > OTOH, I can't see Val staying attached to any object for all that long. I think once he's stolen it, he doesn't care about it. And he'd probably really like it if the person he stole it from didn't care about it either. In fact, one might go so far as to say that Val is very Buddhist because he tries to teach everyone not to get to attached to stuff. - -- Dave C. iN*T*x "To break the rules is to break the spell" - C. Lasch ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:18:35 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia In a message dated 6/11/98 2:59:35 PM, emccoy@nh.ultranet.com writes: >At 10:28 PM-0800 6/10/98, Armand wrote: >>> >>>> I grant you certainly don't get fat or bearded heroes. >>>Pheobus from Hunchback had a goatee, that's a type of beard. He was also >the >>>first Disney hero to have facial hair >> >>What about the Beast? Every last inch was covered in hair, but in the >end, >>he was blond haired and blue-eyed. No facial hair either. However, when >>they do remakes, they don't use the defurred Beast. > >That's because he's *cuter* as Beast. (He's so ... boring, as a >human. No fur. Not nearly cuddly enough. Hmph.) > >To yank things to IN-land. Would the Beast have counted as a Djinn? >Rather cuddly, if so... (And then there's the Lust-Djinn I came >up with, which, in celestial form, looks like a scaly mountain >lion with horizontal pupils, 3 prehensile tails, and 3 tongues. >It likes to lick its nose and "whisker" pads simultaneously... >Obviously showing off.) I hate to be the one to say this, but ... cat tongue? (*rasp*, *rasp* OUCH!!) > >--emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor >GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ > > Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:39:27 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jesse L. Rooney" Subject: Re: IN> Stealing On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Mark McKenzie wrote: > Jesse L. Rooney wrote: > > > > >Wealth is hard to generate without trade, but it's > > > > possible. Wealth can be _procured_ without trade, though. > > > > It's called stealing. Most governments will call it > > > > liberating, confiscating, or 'spoils of war'. > > > > > > You forgot the most common term: "taxation." > > > > Taxation is not theft, it is the payment for services rendered. > > > > Usually paid far in advance of the services being rendered (if ever), at > non-negotiable prices set by the service provider. Often at gunpoint, or > its moral and functional equivalent. YMMV. Expect of course for public education, publically funded hospitols, highways, trash removal, publically funded universities, libaries, and law enforcement. I don't know about you, but I took advantage of these tax-funded items wahy before I started paying (income) tax. Taxes are Valefor's realm when they are oppersive, other wise they are Marc's realm. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:51:27 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jesse L. Rooney" Subject: Re: IN> Buddhist In Nomine Revised On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Dave Conrad wrote: > > Valefor: The Prince of theft is in no way a Buddhist. He is deeply > > attached to material objects and might as well focus on those mortals who > > are as well. > > > > OTOH, I can't see Val staying attached to any object for all that long. I > think once he's stolen it, he doesn't care about it. And he'd probably really > like it if the person he stole it from didn't care about it either. In fact, > one might go so far as to say that Val is very Buddhist because he tries to > teach everyone not to get to attached to stuff. But he is attached to material objects as a whole. With out materialism Theft would be meaningless.He might not be attached to any particular object, but with oout materials to steal, which he dewls upon, he would be meaningless. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:03:34 -0700 From: "Steven Feldon (Exchange)" Subject: RE: IN> Buddhist In Nomine Revised > But he is attached to material objects as a whole. With out materialism > Theft would be meaningless.He might not be attached to any particular > object, but with oout materials to steal, which he dewls upon, he would > be meaningless. Not quite. He's also interested in the illicit transfer of intellectual property, taking credit for another's actions, plagiarism, the wasting of other's time, affection being . . . rerouted in fashions deceitful. Theft is the taking of ownership from a rightful owner. It's far from limited to material things. steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:55:40 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Absolute Morality in In Nomine >>>that's just what dictators and self-serving politico's count on...by that reasoning, hitler was just misguided...a point of view I think that 6 million jews would disagree with..if they could. An idea can kill just as easily as a gun..depends on how it's used and when...<<< Exactly, but a gun is not inherently an evil too. Hitler used a tool to do evil, that doesn't mean the tool he used is inherently evil. (Granted, I have difficulty imagining a benevolent fascist government lasting very long, but you still can't claim by any objective standard that it's "Evil".) >>>naive and dangerous to make that assumption. Some things should never be attempted or implemented.<<< Not an assumption, not naive. Some things certainly shouldn't be attempted, but I'm talking about complex political theories, not "We should execute everyone at age 60." >>>Uh...if it dosen't work, and harms people and isn't ever going to work, save as an instrument of oppression, than the idea is therefor 'evil' by definition...or so it would seem to me..<<< You need to recheck your definition of evil. Also, I said the evidence _suggests_ communism won't work _on a large scale_ -- not quite the sweeping statement you made in your inaccurate paraphrase. Putting this in In Nomine terms (yay!) -- this is exactly WHY the meaning of so many Words can be disputed, and the benevolence of so many policies can be debated. Many people see Dominic as evil because he tries to impose a rigid hierarchy that allows no dissent, and wants everyone to think the way he does. But if Dominic is _right_, you can't really say he's evil. And if the methods he use never _quite_ cross the line into tyranny, he may make you nervous, but you can't claim he is working for evil. Demons can play in the grey areas of morality _because_ there are grey areas. Is communism evil? Certainly many capitalists think so, but there are many evils that can be pointed out in a capitalist system -- the reason I half-jokingly proposed an Angel/Demon of Socialism (and someone offlist proposed an Angel/Demon of Capitalism in response) is because they are both systems that can do good and evil. Same reason I wrote up Angels _and_ Demons of Abortion and Anti-Abortion....you can't (unless you adhere to a certain fundamental black-and-white mindset) assume that something is Evil with a capital E just because it goes against _your_ principles. Dominic certainly adheres to that black and white mindset, and it can be fun playing angels of Judgment. It can be even more fun depicting angels of Judgment as hard-nosed SOBs that usually turn out to be _right_. But if every Archangel was like Dominic, In Nomine would be pretty boring. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:00:53 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Crossover Games (was Re: IN> Communism=Evil?) Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > To get this back on track... IN/Paranoia cross-over anyone? :) Actually, I've been having a few thoughts about how to mix IN with other games (just as a thought experiment). Here are some examples for the games I own - any other suggestions? IN/Castle Falkenstein Perhaps Uriel never fought his Crusade in New Europa. Celestials are secretive fighters behind scenes, while Dragons, Fae and Dashing Hussars steal the limelight. Christianity is the biggest religion in New Europa, and Sorcerors would make great Soldiers. Jean is the Archangel of Steam, Vapula the DP of Infernal Devices. Is Vapula the Mastermind behind the World Crime League? IN/Feng Shui Uriel fought the crusade... but the Chinese Gods knew Kung Fu, and they _kicked_his_ass_. Now the celestials hide in the Marches (or the Netherworld), polishing up their weapons and hoping for a chance to wrestle power back from the Celestial Emperor. Two-gun Cherub Killers, Chinese demons to back up the regular bad guys, Arcanotech-wielding Vapulans, Kung-Fu Malakim of Eli... "Hmm, your flaming sword's impressive... but no match for my 19 Dragon Fist!" IN/Over the Edge The conspiracies of Al Amarja would make a great cover for the activities of the War. Hmm... secrets and conspiracies... maybe Monique D'Aubainne is Malphas in disguise. Maybe parts of the Island overflow into the Marches (could explain some of the Mystic Sh-t). Can even celestials stop the power of the Throckmorton Device? What _would_ happen if a Shedim-host got a Kergillian implant? Will Aaron Parker's ascent to Rock'n'Roll Godhood topple Heaven? - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia I know we're dying, and there's no sign of a parachute We scream in cathedrals Why can't it be beautiful? Why does there gotta be a sacrifice? TORI AMOS, "iieee" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:36:52 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Djinn of Lust... (Re: Disney's Infernal Communists) At 6:18 PM -0400 6/11/98, MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 6/11/98 2:59:35 PM, emccoy@nh.ultranet.com writes: >>To yank things to IN-land. Would the Beast have counted as a Djinn? >>Rather cuddly, if so... (And then there's the Lust-Djinn I came >>up with, which, in celestial form, looks like a scaly mountain >>lion with horizontal pupils, 3 prehensile tails, and 3 tongues. >>It likes to lick its nose and "whisker" pads simultaneously... >>Obviously showing off.) > >I hate to be the one to say this, but ... cat tongue? (*rasp*, *rasp* OUCH!!) For some straaaaange reason, the character confronted with the kitty- Djinn didn't want to be licked by it. Can't *think* why not. };;;> Of course, just because it was otherwise cat-like, doesn't mean it had sandpaper tongues -- it might have had... Oh, was this list PG-13? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 1998 18:10:19 -0600 From: jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu (Jason F. McBrayer) Subject: Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? >>>>> "C" == Casca writes: C> On 11 Jun 1998, Jason F. McBrayer wrote: >> What about Marcus in "A Dark Dream"? He's pretty sympathetic. C> Marcus bites a man's thumb off, betrays his only real friend to a C> squad of Malakim (fortunately for Charlie, Nicole was lying), and C> simultaneously manages to kill a dog in a particularly brutal C> manner, traumatize a family, and ruin a veteranarian's career. C> Oh yeah, that's sympathetic. But he's so NICE about it! Maybe it's because I'm used to Paranoia, but Marcus seems about par for PC's. And Nicole: o tricks an innocent bystander into murdering her servitor. o blackmails said bystander into serving her every whim, yea, unto doing her laundry under threat of being turned over to the cops. o lies to her former boyfriend about a squad of Malakim who are going to come kill him, as a pretext for shooting him with her itty bitty gun. So yeah, demons are bad, but angels are no prize either. Hrm... has anyone here read John Tynes' "Power Kill" game? It's a metagame that you play "around" a regular roleplaying session, that illuminates how antisocial the actions of roleplaying characters really are (it's online but I can't remember the URL offhand; somewhere below http://www.tccorp.com/). I'm sure you could play "Power Kill" with a Bright IN game just as well as with a Dark one. - -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu | | The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must hide Yhtill | | forever. R.W. Chambers _The King in Yellow_ | ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #820 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.