From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Jun 12 09:03:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA27401 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:03:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id JAA07412 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:03:53 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:03:53 -0500 Message-Id: <199806121403.JAA07412@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #821 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, June 12 1998 Volume 01 : Number 821 In this digest: IN> Fallen Malakim - Why Bother? Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? Re: IN> Zoroastrian In Nomine Re: IN> Re: Willy Wonka, what is he? Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia IN> Native Americans and others Re: IN> Native Americans and others Re: IN> Archangel Marc Re: IN> Buddhist In Nomine Revised Re: IN> Buddhist In Nomine Revised Re: IN> Stealing Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? Re: IN> Djinn of Lust... (Re: Disney's Infernal Communists) Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? Re: IN> Native Americans and others Re: IN> Native Americans and others Re: IN> Native Americans and others Re: IN> Re: Willy Wonka, what is he? Re: Crossover Games (was Re: IN> Communism=Evil?) Re: IN> Native Americans and others Re: IN> Native Americans and others IN> Jack Chick, Balseraph of Factions? Re: IN> Jack Chick, Balseraph of Factions? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:44:58 From: Peter Frederick Subject: IN> Fallen Malakim - Why Bother? Dear List I was looking at the INC page and read Simon Hailes fabulous piece on Fallen Malakim. After printing it out and reading it again I was struck by how good it was and how much effort it seems that getting one of Virtues to Fall is and I thought Why Bother. Swiftly the scene unfolded in my mind, Prince Kobol explaining to Lucifer why it wasn’t worth the trouble. “Prince of Darkness the foremost quality of humans is their capacity for self deception.” Lucifer Nods. Kobol continues “And Malakim are exactly the opposite. Their Ressonance reveals Evil to them everywhere and they are bound to act against it. To the majority of humans this makes them look like random senseless killing machines or heartless unjust oppressors, and then they claim to be Angels of God. Leave them where they are, they couldn’t do a better job for us if they did Fall.” Lucifer considers, charting in his mind the depths to which the most honourable, most loyal, most trusted and most violent Choir could sink to if they Fell. “You may be right, we will leave them alone for now.” Kobol smiles: “They crack me up, they’re almost as funny as Elohim.” The Prince of Dark Humour continues in a plumy British public school accent “I’d love to be able to assist you, but a logical analysis of the greater good indicates that the universe is, as a whole, better off if you remain a drug addict / homeless / unemployeed / crippled / ugly / oppressed by an unjust and violent government.” Thanking you for your indulgence. Regards, Peter. Reply to peterf@wr.com.au May the Goddess shelter you in the palm of her hand until we meet again. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:39:07 From: Peter Frederick Subject: Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? At 02:28 PM 10/6/98 -0700, you wrote: >This might seem strange, but I was wondering if anyone runs Demons as the >villians anymore? From alot of discussion about games on this list it seems >more in fashion to present them as anything ranging from tragic heroes to >just misunderstood neutrals. Lilim and Servants of Dark Humour seem to get >this "lightening up" treatment the most. > >Angels seems to get portrayed as endlessly bloodthirsty (Malakim), clueless >( Novalis often seems to be portrayed in this light) or simply no "better" >than Demons just with diffrent powers and bosses. Now I know that I'm coming in way late on this one, but here's my 2c worth (that's about 1.16c US at ccurrent exchange rates) Angels are, within the game universe, aligned to "Good", that's capital G good. That doesn't mean they are nice. I tend to think that some Choirs get caught in the bigger picture, particulalry Seraphim, Malakim and Elohim. This means they are going to do things that are going to be hard on the people standing next to them because in an Eternal final analysis that we mere mortals can't really grasp it is the right thing to do. Similarly I think Cherubim could be pretty annoying. They have your best interest at heart and that means they are going to make you eat ALL your vegetables or get off heroin even if it means going cold turkey if that is the best thing for you. On the other hand a Demon might seem like your best buddy. They can throw great parties, help you get what you always wanted, help you get back at people who did things to you that you didn;t like, all sorts of great things. But they do not have your best interest at heart. And when things get down to it you are going to pay a premium price for anything they provided and when it all ends in tradgedy guess who's going to be left holding the bag. And that's the Demon who is your bossom buddy, don't even ask about the other sort. For me the divide of selfish/unselfish is most easily drawn by the question "Does (s)he care about others?" If the answer is "Yes", you're on the side of the Angels. If it is "No" then you're on the other side. And if it is "Yes, but I know what's best for people" or "Yes, when it suits me" or "Yes, when the world revolution has come everyone will be happy" then you're somewhere in the middle. OTOH grey characters are always intresting to play, and IN does give you the chance to do a whopper of a redmeption story. If that's what people want to do with it I would support them. If they want to explore what it means to be Evil they can do it without me, I don;t need to visit that territory anymore. Thanking you for your indulgence. Regards, Peter. Reply to peterf@wr.com.au May the Goddess shelter you in the palm of her hand until we meet again. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:24:37 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN> Zoroastrian In Nomine At 08:25 AM 11/06/98 -0600, you wrote: >>>>>> "SH" == Simon Hailes writes: > >SH> and you forgot the original before the Three, Zoroastrianism, >SH> which was the first religion that Yves developed. > >Where is this mentioned? I'm working on a Gnostic IN setting, and it >would be nice to have it intersect with canon at this point. > >-- >+----------------------------------------------------------------+ >| Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu | >| The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must hide Yhtill | >| forever. R.W. Chambers _The King in Yellow_ | > > It's in the Yves description of Heaven and Hell, and IRL there is a lot of proof that Zoroastrianism influenced Judaism, and subsequently Christianity, and is still practiced today by a number. Therefore if you want a place for Judaism in In Nomine then you can claim it ws a tribal religion until it remodelled its ideas under Yves first try at religion. Of course I know I am already stepping on a number of people's theological toes but it does fit, especially with the whole concept of redemption, meaning anything, even Lucifer Himself, can be brought back to the Divine. Simon, Demon Prince of Pearls > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:57:53 -0400 From: Ron Carnegie Subject: Re: IN> Re: Willy Wonka, what is he? At 06:23 PM 6/10/98 -0500, you wrote: >>I think willy wonka is a servant of creation on loan to dream. >> >Willy Wonka is a fictional character. > >Roald Dahl, creator of Willy Wonka and writer of several other children's >stories, was secretly Roaldiel, an Ofanite of Creation in service to >Christopher, Archangel of Children. > >After the publication of "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory," the book which >introduced Willy Wonka, a Balseraph of Gluttony talked Dahl's publisher into >selling the rights to mass market candies under the Wonka brand name. > I think you will find that the candy came after the movie not the book. It was in fact timed with the release of the movie and there were more varities available. There was even a choclate bar that came with a golden ticket. Of course I was only a child at the time, but Charlie was my favourite book. I still own both it and the great glass elevator (though I have the film as well). I like the book and the film, but they are definetly NOT the same. Cheers, Ron Carnegie rcarnegie@widomaker.com ************************************************* "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." G.M. Trevelyan ************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:06:00 From: Peter Frederick Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Dear List Wow, since my Anastasia post got so much attention I thought I should make something of a reply, impossible tho it is at this point to step into the raging rivers of debate, and I’ll try to stay close to topic where I can. In the order of my original suggestions. > 1 Non-mainline religeous leaders are evil and probably in league with Satan; 1. I tend to see all ideology as suspect and religon as a particularly noxious strain of it, so mainstream or not self identified religious folk don’t gain any points in my book. >2 Absolute states like Monarchies are fun places where everyone is happy 2. Thanks to John Karakash for dragging some of this back on topic. For any historical IN campaign the “Divine Right of Kings” is a solid hook for a fair range of plots, especially if you add in that old chesnut regarding Jesus and family escaping to southern France after the crucifixion and their descendents marrying into various noble famlies across western europe. >3 Socialism is Evil 3. I tend to think all flavours of government are a bad idea, that’s right I’m an anarchist, but if I am going to have one the least it could do is feel obliged to provide me with some basic services. As Jo mentioned some of us live in countries where the state education and health systems sort of work, though the ones here in Oz are currently being dismantled around our ears by Right Wing Plutocrats on a Economic Rationalist crusade for the Gods Efficiency and Competition. >4 Resistance to the Establishment is only possble with Diabolic aid and then results >only is a worse situation where everyone is much less happy (if not slaughtered in >their thousands). 4. The question of Rebellion in the IN universe is one that has been playing on my mind for a while now. Trying to writeup a credible “Angel of Rebellion” hasn’t been easy to get my mind around, but I have to believe that resistance to injustice is right and that defending the weak against the oppression by the strong is right. One other thing that I am against is Violence. Violence can never be condoned to push any ideology, presuming you think ideologies are important at all. But you have to let others pursue their own paths and if there were a violent eco-terrorist group (which I understand we are getting close to) it wouldn’t stop me supporting Bans on Whaling, Reforestation Projects and Carbon Emmission Controls. Thanks to all for the spirited debate, I hope we all gathered some respect for the oppinions of other, even if we don't share them. And my apologies for starting this whole digression in the first place. Regards, Peter. Reply to peterf@wr.com.au May the Goddess shelter you in the palm of her hand until we meet again. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:13:37 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Native Americans and others >>>Firstly, Ethereal deities cover a number of these people, secondly remember that just about anyone who achieves their destiny can get in to heaven, even Native American shamans, in fact I believe Native American vissinary, Black Elk, was noted as being in Heaven.<<< I think this is a perfect example of why we _should_ be leery using non-mainstream religions in In Nomine. Native American spirituality/mythology, for example, is very chic right now, and a lot of people think they know something about it from reading a New Age book by a self-proclaimed "shaman", or watching "Dances With Wolves". The fact is, though, that (according to my limited understanding) Native Americans did not HAVE "shamans." They did have spiritual leaders, they had some spiritual practices that bear superficial resemblances to shamanic beliefs in other parts of the world, but *anyone* who claims to be an "authentic Native American shaman" _isn't_. Most folks don't realize how badly Native American culture has been mangled in the retelling and commercialization of what is really hundreds of separate and largely unrelated cultures. Ask some Native American activists, however, what they think of "Dances With Wolves" or the umpteen jillion websites devoted to "How to Go on Your Very Own Vision Quest with Dancing Poohbear, Certified Navajo-Cherokee Shamanic Practitioner." Fortunately, most Native American activists probably don't read roleplaying games. They'd probably be apalled -- gamers, like most folks, are well-intentioned but usually have no clue what they're talking about when they start writing about Native American history and belief systems. It is far too easy to draw facile parallels between what we know of "Indian medicine men" from 60 years of bad Hollywood movies and about 30 years of bad post-hippie New Age nonsense, and belief systems elsewhere, and then create "Native American ethereal spirits" or "Indian magic systems." And exactly the same thing is true of any other belief system, from Hinduism to Buddhism to -- yes, Christianity, about which many Christians have only a limited understanding beyond the beliefs expressed by their own church. I am not saying these topics shouldn't be covered. I'm saying if they're going to be covered, some care should be taken, some research should be done, and hopefully, the result will be a quality product. They should be done _well_. If all we do is publish something that presents "Native American shamans as Ethereal Soldiers," though, we would be rightfully pilloried for not doing our homework. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:54:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others - ---David Edelstein wrote: > > I am not saying these topics shouldn't be covered. I'm saying if they're > going to be covered, some care should be taken, some research should be > done, and hopefully, the result will be a quality product. They should be > done _well_. > -David > I'm not going to worry, David--I have faith that whoever does the research will do a fantastic job! Steve Jackson Games, in my opinion, has done some fantastic stuff with their GURPS line...I would buy the books simply because I felt that the information was just fabulous. I always enjoyed getting a new GURPS sourcebook. And now? I get In Nomine, because it is one of the best games I have played in a long, long time...my players get a kick out of it, and these are people who have played many RPGs. All in all, I believe that the research will be done, and we can be very happy with whatever comes out next. Well, that's enough of that. I'll get off the soapbox now... :) Graveyard Greg, Malakite of Creation Go visit The Reliquary: http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/everquest/46/ _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:24:42 -0400 From: Kirt Dankmyer Subject: Re: IN> Archangel Marc > Indeed. This brings up the topic of Archangel Marc, who I think is given > the shaft by not only canon, but many GMs (me included here). I think the > strength and pervasiveness of his Word is often overlooked. I agree. I'm playing a Seraph of Marc in a campaign right now, and I tell you, his Status Six role as an international businessman (one of the world's richest people) has the potential to accomplish a LOT in the service of the War. And being an angel of Marc doesn't even stop one from being generous. Remember, spending money stimulates the economy -- and furthers your Word. So if your fellow angels have a habit of smashing all their equipment, you can just smile and buy them some more... -Loki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 06:51:00 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Buddhist In Nomine Revised At 18:51 11/06/98 -0400, you wrote: > > >But he is attached to material objects as a whole. With out materialism >Theft would be meaningless.He might not be attached to any particular >object, but with oout materials to steal, which he dewls upon, he would >be meaningless. Oh I think he is _very_ attached to material objects (and not only material objects), so much that he doesn't want anyone else to own any of them. (What's that quote from Henry V? 'I love France so much that I will not give up even one little village of it?') He's a hooligan too of course, and if the only way he could take something from someone was to actually trash it then that's what he'd do. That includes spouses, friends, reputation et al as well as stuff like the Mona Lisa (which has been stolen so many times that it can't be that much of a challenge any mroe ;) ). It's more important that the original owner loses it than that he gets to keep it. And God help anyone who dares to steal from _him_... jo "Whatever was required to be done, the Circumlocution Office was before hand with all the public departments in the art of perceiving HOW NOT TO DO IT." -- Dickens (Little Dorrit) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:31:12 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Buddhist In Nomine Revised On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Dave Conrad wrote: > > Valefor: The Prince of theft is in no way a Buddhist. He is deeply > > attached to material objects and might as well focus on those mortals who > > are as well. > > > > OTOH, I can't see Val staying attached to any object for all that long. I > think once he's stolen it, he doesn't care about it. And he'd probably really > like it if the person he stole it from didn't care about it either. In fact, > one might go so far as to say that Val is very Buddhist because he tries to > teach everyone not to get to attached to stuff. I'd think it's rather the other way around - he's happy when the person he's stolen something from misses it. (I think it's even in the IN book - theft inspires greed and anger in the victim.) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 03:48:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Stealing On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Jesse L. Rooney wrote: > >Wealth is hard to generate without trade, but it's > > > possible. Wealth can be _procured_ without trade, though. > > > It's called stealing. Most governments will call it > > > liberating, confiscating, or 'spoils of war'. > > > > You forgot the most common term: "taxation." > > Taxation is not theft, it is the payment for services rendered. Whoa whoa whoa - do NOT go down that alleyway! We're getting MORE than enough offtopic debates and rantings on the list as it is. Some people think taxation is theft, some think it's fair. Both have good reasons for their viewpoints, and there are plenty of lists and newsgroups to discuss this on but UNLESS one of you is merely leading up to your Angel/Demon of Taxation/Tax Evasion which you'll be posting VERY SHORTLY, don't start yet another stupid debate. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! | "Fuck 'Em If They Can't Take A Joke is more than just a meaningless | | slogan; it's actually a pretty serious statement, and one that I hold | | true to, with a cream pie in one hand and a chainsaw in the other..." | | -- Me | ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 04:05:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? On 11 Jun 1998, Jason F. McBrayer wrote: > C> Oh yeah, that's sympathetic. > > But he's so NICE about it! Maybe it's because I'm used to Paranoia, > but Marcus seems about par for PC's. If it weren't for the dog business, he'd be about the same level as Vampire PCs. > And Nicole: Hey, did I -say- Nicole was nice? > o tricks an innocent bystander into murdering her servitor. '"There's nothing I can say to convince you I'm an angel," she said, backing away slowly. "There never is. But relax, empty your mind and decide for yourself whether or not I'm telling the truth. Then I'm going to ask for a little favor."' -- IN, p9 Doesn't seem like trickery to me. She saves his life and -asks- him to kill his would-be murderer. There's a possibility she used a Song on him, but I doubt she'd pull a stunt like that if she were planning on meeting her Archangel later. In addition to saving what's-his-name's life, she also made a significant difference to it. From the opening lines, he seemed pretty miserable with how his life was going. Thirdly, the man he killed was a -traitor-. Neither Heaven nor Hell look kindly on turncoats. > o blackmails said bystander into serving her every whim, yea, unto > doing her laundry under threat of being turned over to the cops. This is pretty lousy, yeah. At least she heals his thumb for him later. > o lies to her former boyfriend about a squad of Malakim who > are going to come kill him, as a pretext for shooting him with her > itty bitty gun. She serves Gabriel. Demons are cruel. Punish the cruel. > So yeah, demons are bad, but angels are no prize either. Nicole is actually one of the most not-nice Mercurians I've read about. I figure it's because she serves Gabby. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:26:53 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Casca wrote: > Nicole is actually one of the most not-nice Mercurians I've read about. > I figure it's because she serves Gabby. I was just thinking about how nice Gabriel's Mercurians are... or at least what nice mission they have - preventing people from being cruel to themselves. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:05:24 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Djinn of Lust... (Re: Disney's Infernal Communists) On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 6:18 PM -0400 6/11/98, MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: > >In a message dated 6/11/98 2:59:35 PM, emccoy@nh.ultranet.com writes: > > >>To yank things to IN-land. Would the Beast have counted as a Djinn? > >>Rather cuddly, if so... (And then there's the Lust-Djinn I came > >>up with, which, in celestial form, looks like a scaly mountain > >>lion with horizontal pupils, 3 prehensile tails, and 3 tongues. > >>It likes to lick its nose and "whisker" pads simultaneously... > >>Obviously showing off.) > > > >I hate to be the one to say this, but ... cat tongue? (*rasp*, *rasp* OUCH!!) > I don't know I had an ex- who left me but took my cat with her... > Of course, just because it was otherwise cat-like, doesn't mean it > had sandpaper tongues -- it might have had... Oh, was this list PG-13? At times unfortunatly yes. If anyone is curious I will explain my former feline house mates "tastes". Shadowcat All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 05:43:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > Nicole is actually one of the most not-nice Mercurians I've read about. > > I figure it's because she serves Gabby. > > I was just thinking about how nice Gabriel's Mercurians are... or at least > what nice mission they have - preventing people from being cruel to > themselves. But sometimes you have to be harsh to someone to prevent them from being cruel to themselves, a la toughlove. Like locking a junkie in his room for a week until he can get the drug out of his system -- it helps the person in a long-term way, but at that moment, the Merc is -not- being nice. Helpful, yes. Loving and understanding and compassionate, yes. But stubborn as all get-out and most definitely not nice as fas as that junkie's concerned. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 07:25:26 -0400 From: Afterburner Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others >Steve Jackson Games, in my opinion, has done some fantastic stuff with >their GURPS line...I would buy the books simply because I felt that >the information was just fabulous. I always enjoyed getting a new >GURPS sourcebook. I feel pretty much the same way with regard to Chaosium products (which is not to say that I *don't* feel the same way about Steve Jackson products -- however, In Nomine is the only SJ product I've purchased, and so the sample size is small). I'm one of the few folks I know who actually has a copy of Chaosium's Ringworld RPG, as well as the sole supplement that was ever put out for the game. I've never played the game, alas, and will probably never get the chance. But it's still a *great* source of background info for Larry Niven's "Known Space" universe. Same with the Call of Cthulhu game (although I understand that it's grown far beyond Lovecraft's original vision, and many "serious" Lovecraft aficianados look down upon those whose sole experience with Cthulhu/Lovecraft is via the RPG). At some point in the very near future, I plan on buying the entire collection of Elric material, just because I like Moorcock's "Eternal Champion" series and I'm pretty confident that the material in the sourcebooks and core rulebook will be of similarly high quality as that of Ringworld and Call of Cthulhu. Afterburner Balseraph of Slightly On-Topic Posts http://www.erols.com/aburner (Planescape, Deadlands, and other Stuff(tm)) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:01:12 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others Afterburner wrote: >Same with the >Call of Cthulhu game (although I understand that it's grown far beyond >Lovecraft's original vision, and many "serious" Lovecraft aficianados look >down upon those whose sole experience with Cthulhu/Lovecraft is via the RPG). Hee. (Lovecraft wrote about 1 good short story IMO, but the intensity of the atmosphere he created in just about everything was fabulous). I do like CoC sourcebooks, despite the fact I haven't played or run any recently, and that's actually nothing to do with the game itself. I got a ton of use from the 1920's Cairo book -- again mainly because the research and background detail was so good, so useful, and mostly non-game specific. I One of the things I especially liked, and really would hope to see in IN stuff too, is that material in the additional sourcebooks is seamlessly optional to the main setting. You can use it or not as you like. If you are interested in that particular location/ setting/ group then it's a boon, and if not then at least you know that nothing else in the basic theme underwent any major changes. I hope writers will have the courage not to be overly trendy, because I think part of its appeal is that it just isn't that kind of game (as Neel and other people have already said) >;-) (I mean, I know that if I were writing I'd have no hesitations about potentially winding up large segments of the populace *evil grin* Outrageous viewpoints make for much more fun characters, even if it means being outrageously reasonable!) I also think that really at least _some_ ethereal gods must have died in the crusade, otherwise it was a pretty poor excuse for a crusade! I'd like to see at least one pantheon which was wiped out. jo, never outrageous except when there is a y in the day ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:35:45 -0400 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others Hart, Joanna wrote: > I also think that really at least _some_ ethereal gods must have died in the > crusade, otherwise it was a pretty poor excuse for a crusade! I'd like to > see at least one pantheon which was wiped out. Well this fits in nicely with canon as the Marches book only refers to a small number of the numerous pantheons of gods that exist in our mythology. Not to mention that the Aztec gods were wiped out and only a very few (like three) exist for certain, and Beleth loves them. In my campaign it has been left nebulous for the players but my assumption is that if I don't have plans for a particular diety then they were killed. Odin and Oberon on the other hand are alive and well and living in the Far Marches. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 05:42:10 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Re: Willy Wonka, what is he? >> Roald Dahl, creator of Willy Wonka and writer of several other children's >> stories, was secretly Roaldiel, an Ofanite of Creation in service to >> Christopher, Archangel of Children. > > How do you account for "Roald Dahls Book Of Ghost Stories"? It is >deffinatly NOT for children. > >> > > Shadowcat > >All cats may look upon a king. >No comment on the Queen ;-) I get to thinking of all of this diatribe on what is "for children" and what is not. Sticking to the subject of Roald Dahl, has anyone read "The Witches"? The boy in that gets transformed into a mouse, and stays that way. No going back to being a good little boy. I think that this all boils down to what children really want. I now that we have a lot of Pratchett fans on the list, I hope that I'm not spoiling anything. There is a part in "Hogfather" where Death is at a toy store playing the part of the Hogfather (i.e. - Santa Claus). He asks the kids what they want for Hogswatch night, and he gives it to them. However, the kids are usually not asking for nice little kiddy toys. Most often, they ask for things that one would not normally give a child, like a sword. ("She'll cut herself on it.", "SHE'LL LEARN NOT TO DO IT AGAIN" [not shouting, just quoting]) To tie this into a more modern and easier to appreciate setting, I was at a kid's movie a couple of nights ago. A preview for "Mulan" came on. I could have taken all the footage that they used and made the same preview work for "Glory" or "Raise the Red Lantern". Not once did they show the cute marketable characters in the preview. After the preview, there was a chorus of prepubescent voices saying aloud how they wanted to go see _that_ movie. You can chalk it up to it being yet another animated movie, but I think that it goes a little bit further than that. If I was running real life as an IN game, I would pencil this out as a plot by Celestials that want a weaker human race. At an early age, we start candy coating the attrocities of life, so that it becomes harder for our children to adapt to harsh reality. They become dependant on outside sources to weather them through dark times. If I was the type to run the Angels as the antagonists, then I would set this up as the work of a servitor of David. This is his way of insuring that children will band together with something (inadvertently missing out on the idea that this makes it easier for Demonic influence to influence the growing mortal) I would have the PC's be a group of Celestials that see the need to stop this plot, because more willful humans are more satisfying or something. For all of the nightmares that Willy Wonka ever caused any child, have any of us been bound by those nightmares? Or have we found the ability to move beyond to the great glass elevator <*grin*>. Armand ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:04:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Sheep Boy Subject: Re: Crossover Games (was Re: IN> Communism=Evil?) On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Patrick O'Duffy wrote: > IN/Feng Shui > ... > Arcanotech-wielding Vapulans, > ... Ooh, baby. :) I have to say, in the game I'll be running (uh, any day now... really... *cough, cough*) I had never really crystalized my conceptualization of Vapula, aside from the mad scientist/bubbling chem lab bit, but the mention of Arcanotech _really_ struck a chord. Especially since most Arcanotech is supposed to be made from "demon" parts (eyes, ichor, carapaces, and whatnot) and the general evil, slimy feel you get from that wacky Architect stuff, this seems like a perfect match. I probably wouldn't use anything nearly that...weird...for your everyday Vapulan Servitor, but perhaps the occaisional _really_ special operative may be toting some kooky gadget that burbles and squirms with each use. I'd enjoy seeing something like that turn up Earthside once in a while, but in Tartarus...ohhhhhh yeah. :) Thanks, Patrick! :) - Stavro stavro@interport.net http://www.users.interport.net/~stavro/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- "God does not play dice with the universe, but we do." _In_Nomine_ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 06:10:07 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others >I am not saying these topics shouldn't be covered. I'm saying if they're >going to be covered, some care should be taken, some research should be >done, and hopefully, the result will be a quality product. They should be >done _well_. > >If all we do is publish something that presents "Native American shamans as >Ethereal Soldiers," though, we would be rightfully pilloried for not doing >our homework. > >-David When WW started their city sourcebooks, you got these 150-200 page books detailing a city. Heck, just check out the "Succubus Club"; only a night club. Then, they did "World of Darkness". All of Europe in won easy volume. How does this apply to making IN> Native Americans? Well, first of all, consider doing justice to all the tribes. For the most part, they refer to themselves as nations. They aren't joking either. Pacific NW tribes are way different than their plains companions. If a well researched book were to be done on pre-Columbian Native Americans for IN, then this book would make the phone book look small. A more modern book would probably be a little bit smaller, but not by a whole lot. That is, if we wanted to make a nice, well-researched book. However, to the outside obeserver, this game is not very PC. (as if no one has said this before) Even on the inside we still manage to offend people. The question lies in the direction of what are intentions are. If the idea is to make it so that we can have Tonto as a PC, then I don't think that the book would be a good idea. However, if the idea is to make this a truly "all encompassing" game, then the option should be available. Maybe not necessarily canon, but nonetheless available. In a game where it is "Good -v- Evil" with human souls as the stake, I would tend to think all groups might want to be involved. Just my thought, Armand ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:25:32 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Armand wrote: > When WW started their city sourcebooks, you got these 150-200 page books > detailing a city. Heck, just check out the "Succubus Club"; only a night > club. Then, they did "World of Darkness". All of Europe in won easy > volume. I haven't read their Europe book myself, but I haven't heard much good about it... They did -not- do their research. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:33:09 -0400 From: Afterburner Subject: IN> Jack Chick, Balseraph of Factions? For those who don't know the name, Jack Chick publishes those ubiquitous religious tracts that you occasionally see left as a tip for a waiter or lying discarded on the street. One of his more "humorous" ones can be found at: http://www.rpg.net/252/quellen/darkdungeons/index.html Warning: Do not drink anything while reading this. I accept no responsibility for buying you a new keyboard. (The above link takes you to a tract that describes how playing RPGs leads inevitiably to witchcraft, suicide, and so forth.) Mr. Chick even has his own domain and website: http://www.chick.com And his selection of tracts: http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlist.asp contain such jewels as: "Are Roman Catholics Christians?" -- Religion can't save, Only Jesus can! "Allah Had No Son" -- The Allah of Islam is not the God of creation. "That Crazy Guy!" -- When Suzi got AIDS, she learned that God's demand for sexual purity was for her own good. "Where's Rabbi Waxman?" -- In this tract, written specially for Jewish people, Rabbi Waxman comes face-to-face with prophecies of the Messiah and sees how they all point to Jesus. The above is just a sample, but you should begin to get the idea that Mr. Chick comes from a very conservative, fundamentalist theological position. In his eyes, Catholics aren't Christians, the Vatican is the "Whore of Babylon," Jews are doomed to Hell, AIDS is God's punishment for homosexuality, true Christians shouldn't observe Halloween, ad infinitum, ad nauseum. It seems to me that, in the In Nomine universe, Mr. Chick would really be a Balseraph of Factions. I can see a few plot seeds involving Angels attempting to counter the seeds of distrust sown by Mr. Chick. While in the real world, I'm sure he's doing what he thinks is right and proper, in the In Nomine world it's easy to envision his actions as being spawned by Malphas in an attempt to fractionalize the Christian faith. And I'm sure that Laurence probably takes a dim view of Chick's anti-catholicism... AB Shedim of Obscure Websites http://www.erols.com/aburner (Planescape, Deadlands, and other Stuff(tm)) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:44:31 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Jack Chick, Balseraph of Factions? Mr. Chick has also come out against role-playing games as thinly disguised Satanism. Earl ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #821 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.