From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Jun 15 15:55:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA13731 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:55:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id PAA07890 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:43:11 -0500 Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:43:11 -0500 Message-Id: <199806152043.PAA07890@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #826 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, June 15 1998 Volume 01 : Number 826 In this digest: Re: IN> Native Americans and others Re: IN> Native Americans and others Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? Re: IN> Native Americans and others Re: IN> Native Americans and others Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? Re: IN> Native Americans and others Re: IN> Tethers Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? Re: IN> Native Americans and others Re: IN> Native Americans and others Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? The Crusade isn't over (was Re:IN> Native Americans and others) Re: IN> Native Americans and others IN> Surviving ethereals? How? Re: IN> Native Americans and others Re: IN> Native Americans and others Re: IN> Re: IN- Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Re: IN> Tethers IN> Location and Culture (re: American Indians) Re: IN> Native Americans and others Re: IN> Location and Culture (re: American Indians) IN> Ethereal Battlegrounds Re: IN> Horsemen. IN> questions from a would-be player ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 11:12:30 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others Neel Krishnaswami wrote (to Emily Dresner): > But I must confess that I really don't understand why it's > derogatory or slanderous to assert that there were people who > believed things that weren't true. I agree. The Central American civilizations believed in a cosmology that was wildly different from ours, but I don't think a space-opera RPG would be slanderous of them, even if it involved them somehow. This game is about the mythology at the fringes of the Abrahamic religions. The further a body of belief gets from them, the wronger it is in the context of the game. That's just the way it goes. It is also very consistent with Abrahamic tradition, for good or ill, to be very clear about what's true and what's false, and getting loud about it, the whole Uriel's Purge thing being a case in point. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:22:44 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > In a giant In Nomine related segue, I would rule that the Gods are either > insane or dead. They've been messed over by the transition, by the death > of their people at the hands of white man and disease, and at the melding > with a wholy unfriendly religion. There is no way that any of those Gods, > not even say Chac Xib Chac, could survive what happened when their > population was completely depleted by small pox. Then how do you explain (within canon) the continuing existance of the Norse gods? They weren't worshipped in any recognizable form for almost a thousand years. There are a few neo-heathens, but I don't think there's more than a couple of hundreds, if that, and I don't think many of them are serious believers. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 11:27:32 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? Emily Dresner wrote: > Judaism is only in the game by default and by no other real > connection. In Nomine and Judaism are mutually incompatible from > the base level on up. Why is it so terribly incompatible? I know the angelology is sort ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 11:29:13 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? Blast! Truncated my message. I was saying... Emily Dresner wrote: > Judaism is only in the game by default and by no other real > connection. In Nomine and Judaism are mutually incompatible from > the base level on up. Why is it so incompatible? I know the angelology and the eschatology don't match well, but it's about as bad as for Christianity and Islam, I'd think. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 11:38:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others > I wonder if David tends to favour tribal religions (for partly this reason) > enough to send his angels to help the communities stick together once their > dodgy ethereal links have been wiped out. (Same argument applies here as to > whether he is the patron of Judaism: if he does, then he doesn't seem to be > exerting himself all that hard on their behalf...) Archangel Michael is the patron of Judaism. It's written pretty clearly in the Book of Daniel. Again the one who looked like a man touched me and gave me strength. "Do not be afraid, O man highly esteemed," he said. "Peace! Be strong now; be strong." When he spoke to me, I was strengthened and said, "Speak, my lord, since you have given me strength." So he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince. And in the first year of Darius the Mede, I took my stand to support and protect him.) - - Daniel, 10:19-11:1. And then again... "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the Book--will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise [1] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge." - - Daniel 12:1-4 I don't know about the writers of In Nomine, but my opinion is that the Bible wins over conjecture every time. I mean, theoretically, it is the authoritative source. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 11:44:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others > Then how do you explain (within canon) the continuing existance of the > Norse gods? They weren't worshipped in any recognizable form for almost a > thousand years. There are a few neo-heathens, but I don't think there's > more than a couple of hundreds, if that, and I don't think many of them > are serious believers. Within canon? It's very nearly impossible to explain them adequately and their continuing existence, except for the acceptance of a certain number of believers and existing. Either that, or you say that the Gods do not require worshippers for their existence, and can survive just fine without them, something which bugs me. Why would you bother with gathering essence through tethers if you don't need humans in the first place? Maybe someone can explain it better then I. I utterly fail to reconcile the lack of worshippers and the game seeds in the books. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 11:45:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? > Blast! Truncated my message. I was saying... Ha ha! You probably have a Kyrio of Lightning in your computer. Have you sprayed lately? > > Judaism is only in the game by default and by no other real > > connection. In Nomine and Judaism are mutually incompatible from > > the base level on up. > > Why is it so incompatible? I know the angelology and the > eschatology don't match well, but it's about as bad as for > Christianity and Islam, I'd think. Lack of Hell, largely lack of Heaven, and the whole 'you will have no Gods beside me' thing. There are definite angels, but I don't think they work well with In Nomine angels. That, and I think demons are notorious for wearing blended fabrics. I could go dig around in Deuteronomy, but I want lunch. :) - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:51:55 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > > > I wonder if David tends to favour tribal religions (for partly this reason) > > enough to send his angels to help the communities stick together once their > > dodgy ethereal links have been wiped out. (Same argument applies here as to > > whether he is the patron of Judaism: if he does, then he doesn't seem to be > > exerting himself all that hard on their behalf...) > > Archangel Michael is the patron of Judaism. It's written pretty clearly > in the Book of Daniel. [mucho snippo] > I don't know about the writers of In Nomine, but my opinion is that the > Bible wins over conjecture every time. I mean, theoretically, it > is the authoritative source. I don't quite agree with that. If the Bible was -the- source to use, Christ would have a rather more central position, IMO, besides other things. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:50:20 -0500 From: "David C. Shadle" Subject: Re: IN> Tethers > -David (who's already got dibs on writing the official In Nomine San > Francisco, when/if an official In Nomine San Francisco is published) I'd like to pick your brains then, The only two that I have are: Alcatraz-Dominic Haigt-Ashbury-Novalis, or Fleurity ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 16:58:54 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? >I know the angelology and the >eschatology don't match well, but it's about as bad as for >Christianity and Islam, I'd think. I'd suspect it is actually slightly more compatible in some ways than Christianity and Islam, partly because IN makes no mention of either Jesus or Mohammed, neither of which really impacts much on Judaism, and partly because it is primarily an ethical religion rather than a mystical one. (ie. keeping the laws is emphasised over dogma, in general). The existence of hell is a bit of a sticky problem, admittedly ;) I think its true that it is only in the game by default though. Judaism isn't actually mentioned in any of the IN books I have read, unless you include the dodgy bit in the APG about why the malakim didn't kill Hitler (and I prefer my explanation for that by several zillion miles). It is a very minority religion compared to the really big ones though. If anyone ever did write detailed canon on religions it probably needs to be covered for historical influence reasons, but if they aren't going to make definitive statements on whether Jesus & Mohammed even existed (which I think is good actually, those would be good candidates for canon doubt & uncertainty, if they aren't already) then I'd put a historical treatment of Judaism quite far down the list. I could write one if people are interested. jo (No, I won't be sad and tell you the football results. I figure anyone who is interested already knows them ;) ) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:13:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others > > I don't know about the writers of In Nomine, but my opinion is that the > > Bible wins over conjecture every time. I mean, theoretically, it > > is the authoritative source. > > I don't quite agree with that. If the Bible was -the- source to use, > Christ would have a rather more central position, IMO, besides other > things. I'm talking today, not 2000 years ago before the book was even compiled. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:19:58 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others Emily Dresner wrote: "Either that, or you say that the Gods do not require worshippers for their existence, and can survive just fine without them, something which bugs me. Why would you bother with gathering essence through tethers if you don't need humans in the first place?" There are lots of Ethereals who aren't gods receiving worship, aren't there? Perhaps Ethereals just need to get started by corporeal imagination, and can continue on their own. Or perhaps they just need to be thought about, not necessarily worshipped, for continued existence. I guess it's canonical that worship gives Essence to the worshipped, but don't Ethereals generate Essence themselves, like humans and celestials? The additional Essence from worshippers would be mighty handy -- even vitally handy if you need it to power tricks you need to pull in order to survive -- but maybe it's not needed just to keep existing. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:25:14 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Hart, Joanna wrote: > I think its true that it is only in the game by default though. Judaism > isn't actually mentioned in any of the IN books I have read, unless you > include the dodgy bit in the APG about why the malakim didn't kill Hitler > (and I prefer my explanation for that by several zillion miles). It is a > very minority religion compared to the really big ones though. If anyone > ever did write detailed canon on religions it probably needs to be covered > for historical influence reasons, but if they aren't going to make > definitive statements on whether Jesus & Mohammed even existed (which I > think is good actually, those would be good candidates for canon doubt & > uncertainty, if they aren't already) then I'd put a historical treatment of > Judaism quite far down the list. I could write one if people are interested. It says somewhere that Gabby was present at the literal conception of Christianity, and it recited the Koran to Mohammed, so I think we can be pretty sure they both existed. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:30:07 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: The Crusade isn't over (was Re:IN> Native Americans and others) On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Walter Milliken wrote: > It's not so messy, really.... If Pan survived the Crusade, then they > are probably the same being; ethereal spirits are adaptable. If he did > not (and I don't recall offhand if canon has it one way or the other), > then there are several possibilities: Including one that you forgot: > > - there *is* no Pan now -- the neopagans haven't been around long > enough to create one yet. > > - the neopagans keep creating a new Pan, but the older, more powerful > ethereals keep eating him for the Essence he's got. > > - a new Pan was created, and now exists. Here it is: the neopagans keep creating a new Pan, but the Tsayadim keep finding and killing him before he is powerful enough to do anything. This, plus your first two ideas, would go a long way towards explaining why continued worship of a pagan god killed during the Crusade hasn't been brought back to life. Remember: the Purification Crusade isn't over. It has fewer Crusaders, and Uriel has been recalled to the higher Heavens (well, actually, he's back and the Crusade is now finally over in my campaign, but that's another matter). That's all. Nobody really knows how many Tsayadim are out there, still hunting and killing Ethereals. That could be the explanation for the claim that the Crusade killed off [insert the name of a pagan god that was worshipped after AD 765 here]: the Tsayadim got 'em. Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I am returned from the grave! Let this day be hereafter known as Easter, and stuff your kids with sugar and caffeine in thanks!" -Spider Jerusalem - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:42:14 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > > > > I don't know about the writers of In Nomine, but my opinion is that the > > > Bible wins over conjecture every time. I mean, theoretically, it > > > is the authoritative source. > > > > I don't quite agree with that. If the Bible was -the- source to use, > > Christ would have a rather more central position, IMO, besides other > > things. > > I'm talking today, not 2000 years ago before the book was even compiled. So am I - I meant that Christ would have a more central position in the IN world. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:43:09 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: IN> Surviving ethereals? How? On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > Within canon? It's very nearly impossible to explain them [the Norse > gods] adequately and their continuing existence, except for the > acceptance of a certain number of believers and existing. Either that, > or you say that the Gods do not require worshippers for their existence, > and can survive just fine without them, something which bugs me. Why > would you bother with gathering essence through tethers if you don't > need humans in the first place? It may be that a minor trickle of essence is sustained just by human interest in them. The ethereals are (if I understand correctly) created by human belief and imagination. Even though they have very few worshippers today, they are still the subject of a great deal of interest. The stories of the Norse legends are written up as childrens books. Wagner's Ring cycle is about the Teutonic myths, which (while not identical) is close enough to Norse legend to keep up the interest. Thor is a popular (if bastardized) character in comic books. It's not *worship*, but I would speculate that interest and imagination still provides a moderate trickle of Essence to the survivors of the Norse pantheon; enough to keep them from starving, at any rate. The same thing could hold true of any other pagan religion in In Nomine, if it still exists without worshippers. Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I am returned from the grave! Let this day be hereafter known as Easter, and stuff your kids with sugar and caffeine in thanks!" -Spider Jerusalem - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:47:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others > There are lots of Ethereals who aren't gods receiving worship, > aren't there? Perhaps Ethereals just need to get started by > corporeal imagination, and can continue on their own. Or perhaps > they just need to be thought about, not necessarily worshipped, > for continued existence. I gots five words for ya: The First Church of Elvis Hey, it really exists out in Vegas. You'd be surprised what form those Ethereals show up in. > I guess it's canonical that worship gives Essence to the worshipped, > but don't Ethereals generate Essence themselves, like humans and > celestials? The additional Essence from worshippers would be > mighty handy -- even vitally handy if you need it to power tricks > you need to pull in order to survive -- but maybe it's not needed > just to keep existing. I dunno. The more I think about it, the more I think canon is breaking on this point and that it needs to be rethought. If they already get essence and/or can get it from somewhere else, why do they need tethers? Why bother, other then to stroke the old ego? And if the God is not forgotten but is no longer worshipped, does it get essence that way? Does it just draw right out of the minds and imaginations of human populance? There just isn't enough in the Marches (sourcebook) to be able to really say anything either way. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:07:24 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others Emily Dresner wrote: > >> Well, I am in agreement with you that whoever had Uriel wiping out the >> Mayan gods had not done his or her research, but they managed to ignore >> Hinduism completely, and there seems to a version of pop Buddhism floating >> through canon, so it's really about par for the course. But I must confess >> that I really don't understand why it's derogatory or slanderous to assert >> that there were people who believed things that weren't true. > >Oh, well, I'm just a major stickler for detail on the subject of history >(esp. religious) and language, the deader the better. I'm of the firm >belief that if you don't know it, then avoid it like the plague, or go >read some books - and I prefer the later over the former, because at >least someone gets something out of the endevour, and might learn >something new along the way. Very true -- if nothing else, the fever dreams of people who poured their whole lives and souls into the subject are almost always much weirder and cooler than the speculations of a game writer being paid 2 cents a word. Aquinas and Milton are the most useful source material that I have. [I also learned how to write stuff for my game from Aquinas, since his style of rigorous but nonquantitative analysis seems like just the thing to maintain gameworld consistency without having to solve complicated sets of equations. (I've done this latter, for a Mage game, and it was fun but /way/ too much work.)] >I find that, in game, having large bodies of characters believe things >that aren't true is handy. On the other hand, in print, this really >bothers me. There's no real excuse, you know? There has to be a >point where there is some real information and basis floating around. >Someone has to learn a little history somewhere along the way, because the >game is a little lacking. I think my term is "A little transparent in the >plot department." Ah, I realize that I have completely misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you said, "It sucks that IN canon treats the beliefs of [Mayans, Hindus, etc] as false," when in fact you really said, "It sucks that that the writers of IN canon assert that [Mayans, Hindus, etc] believed this thing that they didn't IRL." All is clear now, and I am in total agreement. Historical accuracy is an amazingly good thing, yes. >As for the Uriel Crusade, in my game, nothing more exciting happened then >a Malakite who flipped a cog and was dealt with in a very swift and >exacting manner by my man Michael. No huge Crusade, no mass deaths, and >Uriel never made it out of Western Europe for a large part. At that >point, history just flows like it says - so it is written, so it is done. IMC, it's all part of Yves's Master Plan for Universal Domination. The seven elder angels in my game were: Michael, Yves, Lucifer, Gabriel, Uriel, Eli, and Dominic. Aside from Yves, only Michael and Dominic are fully sane and present, and those two are no longer on speaking terms, and are regarded with fear and distrust by the rest of Heaven. I leave the rest to your imagination. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:10:22 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia On Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 03:14:16PM -0400, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > > Hmm...can you be more specific? Are you referring to individuals, or > > communities? Of course, in some rare areas, the wealth is just there, and > > you don't need Trade to generate it; you need it to get rid of it. > > If you take wheat and make bread, then your personal > net wealth has gone up (presuming the bread is worth more > than the wheat). (I'm prepared to accept that bread is worth more than wheat to humans on the grounds that humans tend to prefer eating bread to raw wheat.) The question is, where did you get the wheat? And where did you get the tools to make the bread out of the wheat? If you made those tools, where did you get the tools to make those tools? Did you discover how to make bread all by yourself, or did someone teach you? Unless you generated all of the knowledge and equipment necessary to make bread yourself, trade or theft was involved at some stage. > Back to the original topic: Wars destroy > wealth. They take input that could be used to > build things and are used to destroy things > instead. To reiterate, I never said Michael was Marc's best friend. I said Marc should be Michael's best friend. What I said was that whether War destroyed Trade was a difficult question to answer, and I intended to convey my opinion that it can further it or hamper it. What are the inputs to a bomb? Refined > metal, explosives, fuel to transport it, and labor > to create it. What are the outputs of use? Scattered > bits of metal and the _removal_ of a thing of > value (if you hit your target!) But that bomb would never have been made in the first place without war. And the creation of that bomb spread wealth throughout the economy which encouraged the creation of other wealth. The US was vastly richer after the 1st and 2nd World Wars than before them. (Europe was vastly poorer, of course.) Wars can enhance > methods of production, or cause resources to be > allocated differently. In the long run, these > activites might result in an increase in wealth. Absolutely. It's a very complicated question. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:38:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Tethers On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, David C. Shadle wrote: > > > -David (who's already got dibs on writing the official In Nomine San > > Francisco, when/if an official In Nomine San Francisco is published) > > I'd like to pick your brains then, The only two that I have are: > Alcatraz-Dominic > Haigt-Ashbury-Novalis, or Fleurity I don't plan on giving too much away, since I have a player on this list, but here are two the group knows about. Grace Cathedral - Located atop Nob Hill, it is a replica of Notre Dame. Naturally it is the main Divine tether for the city. The Presidio - In my game world, it never closed. Definitely a favorite of Michael, and probably Laurence as well. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 12:59:18 +0100 From: Roland Ward Subject: IN> Location and Culture (re: American Indians) David Edelstein wrote: s. They'd probably be apalled -- gamers, like most folks, are > well-intentioned but usually have no clue what they're talking about when > they start writing about Native American history and belief systems. It is > far too easy to draw facile parallels between what we know of "Indian > medicine men" from 60 years of bad Hollywood movies and about 30 years of > bad post-hippie New Age nonsense, and belief systems elsewhere, and then > create "Native American ethereal spirits" or "Indian magic systems." It's always very difficult to do "modern day" type RPG games and make them realistic when you're not 100% knowledgable about the subject. This goes for mere geography and cultures as well as belief systems. The Austin setting for In Nomine make sense because that's where SJ games are based and they know all the little things about the city that add to the flavour. I find it difficult sometimes to run American based adventures becuase I've only been to the States once and then only NY. Similarly I have seen Role Playing games that fail to capture the "essence" of modern Britain. In a game like In Nomine it is especially hard because it relies on "behind the scenes" plots and ploys. Maybe there should be a In Nomine gazateer, for people who want to set their games in other locations/cultural roots. Hey I would even contibute so that In Nomine Scotland didn't end up like Braveheart ;-> Roland :-) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roland Ward Glasgow Scotland, U.K. rward@cqm.co.uk brought to you by Red Hat Linux... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:48:42 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jesse L. Rooney" Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others Haight-Ashbury is a tether of Mamnon, Prince of Greed. It is one of the richests districts in the City by the Bay. >>>shaman is one of two types of religious figures, the other being the > > priest, one is part of a hierarchy, a church, a temple, and is bound by > > dogma. The other has no hierarchy, no strictures, and generally performs > > his duties by instinct, as well as honoring traditions of the past,<<< > > > > Well, those are interesting personal definitions, but not the proper ones > > used in knowledgeable discussions. I'm just curious here, did anyone read or have any questions about the definitions for shamans and priests that I posted? The one above, I am not sure who posted it but David quoted it, is pretty bad. Of course shamans have dogma and traditions, would you expect a Yanamano shamans to give out the Host? Dogma and tradition are one and the same. Futhuremore, the definitions implies that priests have no tradition or instinct. When you think about that you realize that that too is bunk. A Catholic priests (the most stereotypical priest I can think of) has boatloads of traditions and instincts. Each priest's homily (sermon) must be instinctually crafted for the audience. A religious figure, priest or shaman, must always act within the cultural definitions of his society. That is the dogma of a shaman and the tradition of the priest. If a Yanamano shaman or Catholic priest, talked with snakes his tribe might think him mad, but if a Pentacostal did it, it is much more socially acceptable. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:54:21 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Location and Culture (re: American Indians) Roland Ward wrote: I find it > difficult > sometimes to run American based adventures becuase I've only been to the > States > once and then only NY. Trying to design a USA scenario using only NY as a model would make for a verrrrrrry interesting campaign! ;) Oh wait, I think SJG will be doing that with their upcoming GURPS: Urban Decay and Corruption. ;) Similarly I have seen Role Playing games that > fail to > capture the "essence" of modern Britain. In a game like In Nomine it is > especially hard because it relies on "behind the scenes" plots and > ploys. Maybe > there should be a In Nomine gazateer, for people who want to set their > games in > other locations/cultural roots. Hey I would even contibute so that In > Nomine > Scotland didn't end up like Braveheart ;-> SJ sent out a cry to his core of writers that _anyone_ who actually lived in an area, write an article about it (or submit a proposal for one of the upcoming books). He really, really, really wants the area writeups to be true enough that a local person would recognize some of the places depicted. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:19:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Nutt Subject: IN> Ethereal Battlegrounds I've seen many posts lately discussing the anachronistic conflict bewteen Uriel and his followers and certain non-Western pantheons. I might also note that _The Marches_ refers to the *Aztec* pantheon, rather than the Mayan, but that's neither here nor there. Anyway, what points to the idea that Uriel's Crusade was a very black/white thing? What if many pantheons *survived*, albeit in a severely weakened fashion? Maybe the Servitors of Purity just took some of these ethereals down several notches before the Crusade was called to a halt, and they didn't get a chance to finish the job properly. Perhaps the Purity Servitors were putting subtle schemes into place, with eventual results to be felt many years down the road. I think it's important to see Uriel's Crusade as an *unfinished* thing. Maybe *that's* why these assorted pantheons survived after the year 745. Also, who says that other celestials haven't instituted "mini-Crusades", for lack of a better term, even after Uriel has ascended to the Higher Heavens? Perhaps the Word-bound Angel of Spain, in cooperation with Laurence's efforts to boost the Catholic Church (and its major supporters), decided to aid Cortez's expedition by distracting/thrashing/slaughtering the ethereal gods supported by the locals. Call in a few favors from a Lilim somehow related to the Demon Prince of Pestilence, and maybe *that's* how disease managed to ravage the native populations. Perhaps it was a servitor of Fate who gave the prophecy about the men from the east -- you're the GM, *you* figure it out. Yes, humanity ought to be the primary motivator, but celestials have their own grand schemes, and *sometimes* they have dramatic effect. Michael "I know the old saw about 'You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink'... but I believe you can hold the horse's head underwater and make him think about it for a while." -- Dr. Jane Walters, my high school principal ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 16:02:47 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Horsemen. Gerry Mckelvey wrote: > Something someone said earlier made me think of this...where > exactly do the Horsemen of the Apocalypse fit into the In Nomine > universe? I don't picture Saminga sitting astride a pale hores or > talking to people like terry pratchitt's version of Death. [...] > Anyone out there read Good Omens? Yes, I read Good Omens, and it's even in the IN bibliography, so between that and the prominent use of the book of Revelation in IN, it makes sense to try to fit the Horsemen into the IN world. My own take is, if they are not just visionary symbols, they should be Heavenly characters. In Revelation, they appear when summoned by the Lamb and the four living creatures that attend the throne of God. (These living creatures would, I think, be cherubim, of Archangel level or higher.) The second, third, and fourth Horsemen are War, Famine, and Death. The first horseman is variously identified. During the Black Death, he became identified as Pestilence. Modern dispensationalists usually identify him as the Antichrist, also identified with the scarlet lion with seven heads, which appears later on in the book. *I* think he is best identified as Tyranny or Conquest. The (now defunct, I think) apocalyptic RPG "Rapture" called him Tyranny. Whatever they are, they are all bad news, but they are ills sent by Heaven or allowed by Heaven to punish a wicked world. That much is pretty universally agreed on, in interpreting them, I think. Possbilities: They are from the Upper Heavens. They are a quartet of new Archangels, appointed by the Seraphim Council specifically for the apocalypse. They are high-level Worded servitors, appointed for the occasion. They are existing AAs, in which case we get to try to match them -- maybe David (Tyranny), Michael (War), Marc (inverted, as Famine), and the yet-to-be-unveiled Archangel of Death, traditionally Azrael. They are Demon Princes, being manipulated by Heaven or the Upper Heavens, or gone Renegade (though that seems unlikely), with the same chance to mix-&-match, e.g. Asmodeus (Tyranny), Baal (War), Hhagenti (inverted in a different way, as Famine), and Saminga (Death). They are high-level Worded demons. Habbalah would be appropriate, since they are all punishing. And of *course* they are working at the behest of Heaven; just ask them. They are four new Demon Princes, appointed by Lucifer, who is being manipulated by High Heaven, or is trying to manipulate the prophecies of Revelation by deliberately playing part-way into them. > Anyway, where would the Four Horsemen be? They appear at the beginning of the book of Revelation. Personally, I think they've been galloping for many thousands of years... Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:16:54 -0700 From: EagleScout Subject: IN> questions from a would-be player Greetings, I'm a veteran GM of six or so years and I've become facinated with In Nomine. I've read the descriptions on all the books, been to as many web sites as I could find, seen every review of the game on rpg.net, and I must've been over the material at sjgames.com a least twice now. Needless to say, the concept of In Nomine has hooked me. However, I wanted to get some opinions and ask some questions of the players on this list before tried to order the core rules book. I apologise in advance for the generalizations I'm probably going to make, I'm not really familure with the terms used in the game. (1)First of all, what is it that you, as players (especially game masters), like about In Nomine? What puts it above other games? Secondly, is there a range of backgrounds to work with besides Earth in the present? Does the game present oppertunities for celestial and demonic beings to deal with human at other times as well? What do most games end up revolving around? Is it the constant effort by both side to sway humanity or other things as well? Does In Nomine seem to be the kind of game that "takes itself seriously" or are there elements of satire and tounge-in-cheek that I should be aware of? (2)I gather from a story I read that demons can posses the bodies of humans in order to move about on Earth. How does that work for Angles? Do they do the same thing or have another way of making themselves appear human? How deeply to Angles and Demons interact with human society? Are there Angles/Demons in charge of corperations and political groups, or do they hover on the edge of soceity? What are common goals of Angles and Demons? Are their any kind of "neutral" agents in the war between good and evil? How many Demon Princes/Archangles are there? Do they each have their own group of lesser beings to use as pawns in their wars with each other? (3) Now for the tough stuff, the religions questions. Forgive me if I step on anybodies toes here, I don't mean to. I find this game interesting because I'm an agnostic/pagan with a Christian upbringing. I've also been, more or less, persecuted by Christians of various types for my personal values, situational ethics, and arguements against history as the Bible tells it. I enjoy writing, and I see In Nomine as an interesting oppertunity to express a few of my own ideas about religion and to finally make use of the Biblical trivia I learned in four years of Christian high school. Is there anyone around here with a similar story to my own? I gather that the people on this list are all fairly open minded, otherwise there'd be nothing but constant flaming. Am I right to assume this? Thanks in advance for any help you can offer me. I'm just trying to find out if In Nomine is a game for me or not. Finding players on the otherhand...that might take a while. Again, thank you very much. - -Stephen ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #826 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.