From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Jun 15 23:05:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA21606 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 23:05:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id WAA18625 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:59:26 -0500 Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:59:26 -0500 Message-Id: <199806160359.WAA18625@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #827 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, June 15 1998 Volume 01 : Number 827 In this digest: RE: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? Re: IN> Howdy Doody Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? IN> Ethereals Re: IN> Native Americans and others Re: IN> Subject: Nature of Ethereals (was Re: IN> Native Americans and others) Re: IN> questions from a would-be player Re: IN> Native Americans and others Re: IN> Native Americans and others Re: IN> Howdy Doody IN> Ethereal Gods (Re: Native Americans and others) IN> Knowledge skills (Re: IN- Native Americans and others) Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? IN> Norse Gods (Re: )Native Americans and others RE: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? RE: IN> Native Americans and others Re: IN> Norse Gods (Re: )Native Americans and others RE: IN> Native Americans and others IN> Tethers IN> Tethers IN> Native Americans and others IN> Five Blind Men and an Elephant Re: IN> questions from a would-be player IN> The Eight Judaism and the Fall (was Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity?) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 16:21:11 -0400 From: "Robb Kidd" Subject: RE: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? Emily Dresner > Some other people lost in the cascade: > > > > > > Judaism is only in the game by default and by no other real > > > connection. In Nomine and Judaism are mutually incompatible from > > > the base level on up. > > > > Why is it so incompatible? I know the angelology and the > > eschatology don't match well, but it's about as bad as for > > Christianity and Islam, I'd think. > > Lack of Hell, Well, there's Sheol, the Wasteland of Eternal Boredom. But who says that Judaism has "It" right? Some on the list have agreed that the pagan religions are incorrect, why not Judaism, too? > largely lack of Heaven, Yea. I think everybody went to Sheol after they died, at least in early Old Testament theology. Heaven came later. > ... and the whole 'you will have no Gods > beside me' thing. Wasn't it "no gods -before- me"? From my various Old Testament classes, I recall it was a matter of priority, not exclusion. > ... There are definite angels, but I don't think they work > well with In Nomine angels. I dunno. I can recall a few stories that sound like quite good human mottlings of the activites of In Nomine angels in Olden Times. Particularly the story of Balaam in Numbers 22. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 16:29:31 -0400 From: Afterburner Subject: Re: IN> Howdy Doody >PS: Afterburner, I read your post - looks like we have something in >common. I'd love to know how you're finding the game. I usually find it at the local gaming shop. But seriously... Actually, I've tabled further exploration of the IN universe for the nonce, for two reasons: (A) I'm gearing up to run my very first Deadlands game; and (B) I'll be taking a trip at the end of June, and so the money I would normally use to buy more IN books is being saved for the trip. But I like what I see so far... AB ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 16:45:54 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? The equivalent discords between Christianity and IN include: In Christianity, all angels are generally supposed to have been created at the beginning of the world and soon thereafter fell or didn't, period. Souls are immortal and don't reincarnate. Gabriel would not have recited the Koran to Mohammed. You would generally expect there to be a lot less friction in Heaven, though that one is arguable. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:11:35 -0400 From: Andrew Frades Subject: IN> Ethereals Walter Milliken wrote: > > In my understanding of the IN-verse, an > >ethereal god isn't actually created by its worshippers. > > I don't think this is precisely true -- some of the ethereal gods are > existing ethereal spirits who adapted themselves to play the role the > humans were worshipping (so as to reap the Essence), but I believe they > were also ultimately created by human thought. Some of them have moved > from position to position over time, rather than dying off as their > worship declined... *iff* they were adaptable enough to throw off their > current role. All this of course assumes that you buy into the story as told by the winners in what could only be called a war. If you were to believe the losing side (which often has a more accurate portrayal of history, or at least the other side so you can come up with a balance) then Yaweh was once one of them who has moved on, some might say got uppity. Especially when you consider that it fostered a campaign to kill all of its rivals. IN is fairly secretive about which of these is true (i.e. are ethereals made by the dreams of man or were they there all along) for a reason: It keeps you guessing. I know that I will get quite a few quotes from the books stating this or that but for each one you need to read again because they are usually from the perspective of the celestials whose information could be considered circumspect. Andrew Who is a big Amber fan, mostly for the same reasons he likes IN. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:22:52 -0400 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others Andes Gabrielsson wrote: > Then how do you explain (within canon) the continuing existance of the > Norse gods? They weren't worshipped in any recognizable form for almost a > thousand years. There are a few neo-heathens, but I don't think there's > more than a couple of hundreds, if that, and I don't think many of them > are serious believers. To this I can only say that Ethereals have learned to survive on what they can and when you add in Marvel Comics, well there are a whole generation of people that believe (sort of) in Thor and Odin (and the gang). Thanks Stan Lee. Excelsior, Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:35:41 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Subject: Nature of Ethereals (was Re: IN> Native Americans and others) Walter Milliken wrote: > >[Neel:] >>I don't really like the belief-makes-reality thing. It smacks of too >>much Gaiman poisoning on the part of Derek and company, and it can >>get really messy to resolve in a consistent fashion -- is the Pan >>of the neopagan revivalists the same presence that haunted the hills >>of Greece? > >It's not so messy, really.... If Pan survived the Crusade, then they >are probably the same being; ethereal spirits are adaptable. If he did >not (and I don't recall offhand if canon has it one way or the other), >then there are several possibilities: > > - there *is* no Pan now -- the neopagans haven't been around long > enough to create one yet. > > - the neopagans keep creating a new Pan, but the older, more powerful > ethereals keep eating him for the Essence he's got. I don't recall this from _The Marches_, but I'll take your word for it that it's possible. > - a new Pan was created, and now exists. This model breaks when there are large groups of people worshipping mututally incompatible versions of the same god. Happens all the time IRL, at least in Hinduism (which happens to be the polytheistic religion I am slightly knowledgeable about). The extreme case of this would have to be Hinduism and Zoroastrianism. They are both descendants of the same Iranian tribal religions, but the gods of each religion are the demons of the other. Indra, for example, is the king of the gods of the Rg Veda, and one of the foremost evil powers in Zoroastrianism. And the "ahura" in "Ahura Mazda" is the same as the Sanskrit "asura", which is the word for demon! Can ethereals become schizophrenic? >The ethereals are initially created by human belief, but unlike Worded >celestials, their natures can change and evolve. Hm? Wordbound angels change all the time, or otherwise Laurence couldn't be an AA. - -- Neel Krishnaswmai neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 14:37:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> questions from a would-be player - ---EagleScout wrote: > > Greetings, > > I'm a veteran GM of six or so years and I've become facinated with > In Nomine. I got hooked on the game before it even came out, waited over three years (?) for the thing to be published, so I know how you feel! >I apologise in > advance for the generalizations I'm probably going to make, I'm not > really familure with the terms used in the game. > Don't feel bad, I'm still getting used to it myself! :) > (1)First of all, what is it that you, as players (especially game > masters), like about In Nomine? Well.....it's the classic struggle between Good and Evil...And I mean the CLASSIC. What puts it above other games? Wow, good question. It just does...The fact of the different choirs and bands just has this "Biblical" feel...I have always been an angel buff, so I love this game! > Secondly, is there a range of backgrounds to work with besides Earth in > the present? Does the game present oppertunities for celestial and > demonic beings to deal with human at other times as well? Well, in canon? No, not yet...it would be up to the GM. I have always been tempted to do a Deadlands/In Nomine crossover....I'm working on it, so who knows... What do most > games end up revolving around? Is it the constant effort by both side > to sway humanity or other things as well? Does In Nomine seem to be the > kind of game that "takes itself seriously" or are there elements of > satire and tounge-in-cheek that I should be aware of? Let me just say the main theme is for my angel PCs to win the War, save Humanity, and do good in front of their Archangels! And satire or tounge-in-cheek? Buddy, you don't know humor until you have a Malakite of Creation with a sense of comedy... > > (2)I gather from a story I read that demons can posses the bodies of > humans in order to move about on Earth. How does that work for Angles? Kyriotates, one of the Heavenly Choirs, and Shedim, one of the Infernal Bands, can posses people, yes. > Do they do the same thing or have another way of making themselves > appear human? The have bodies that are called Vessels, and can be as human (or even cats, dogs, you name it!) as you or me. They even have navels... > How deeply to Angles and Demons interact with human > society? Are there Angles/Demons in charge of corperations and > political groups, or do they hover on the edge of soceity? Some angels and demons have Roles...They are integrated in human society...The answer to your second question? Depends, and yes to both > What are > common goals of Angles and Demons? To win the War >Are their any kind of "neutral" > agents in the war between good and evil? Hmmmmm......yes >How many Demon > Princes/Archangles are there? Hmmm...less than 15 each so far, I believe.. >Do they each have their own group of > lesser beings to use as pawns in their wars with each other? > Oh, yes! That is a most definite YES! They lesser beings are the angels or demons! > (3) Now for the tough stuff, the religions questions. I won't get into the religious stuff! :) Well, hope that answers some of your questions...Feel free to ask me anything else.... Graveyard Greg, Malakite of Creation Go visit The Reliquary: http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/everquest/46/ _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 14:46:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Kim Foster Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others At 05:22 PM 6/15/98 -0400, you wrote: > > >Andes Gabrielsson wrote: > >> Then how do you explain (within canon) the continuing existance of the >> Norse gods? They weren't worshipped in any recognizable form for almost a >> thousand years. There are a few neo-heathens, but I don't think there's >> more than a couple of hundreds, if that, and I don't think many of them >> are serious believers. > > To this I can only say that Ethereals have learned to survive on what they >can and when you add in Marvel Comics, well there are a whole generation of >people that believe (sort of) in Thor and Odin (and the gang). Thanks Stan Lee. > Cool thought. Ethereal manipulation of the comics industry, perhaps other media... stepping on Nyybas' toes...interesting.... I know violence doesn't solve all problems... But it sure feels good! Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:13:55 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others At 12:34 AM -0400 6/15/98, Emily K. Dresner wrote: [...] > I suspect it's >another In Nomine Copout (tm) - Patent Pending, soon to have a whole line >of merchandise, check back in a gaming store near you. I already have my >t-shirt. There are also the Tsayadim. They may have been going around taking out young, weak ethereal gods before they got a good Essence supply going. (And, yes, history is written by the victors, and the IN main book is written from the point of view of the average celestial who has a mild clue -- note the Kronos is/not a Balseraph thing.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:30:55 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Howdy Doody At 6:24 AM -0700 6/15/98, Martin Arnold wrote: >Anyhoo, I've only recently come across IN and have just started playing >it. Need I say how cromulent it is? Cromulent? >a) Does Cherub of Janus Attunement replace their normal one, or can >they choose between the two. I.e. can the Cherub use his regular >Resonance until he comes across that 'special someone' and then make use >of Janus' gift? Or does he have to wait until he finds that person to >use his Resonance at all (I hope I'm making this clear!) It replaces their normal resonance, for people. (They can still attune to objects and places and whatnot, normally.) >b) Does a the Djinn of Belial 'Brand' become visible to others It's a *brand*, a physical mark. It's obvious like a more mundane, physical brand or tattoo would be. Note the reference to being able to flay the brand away. (Even mundanes will see this mark, and may ask questions. >c) in Marc's Summoning section, the summoner gets a nice +3 for >'illegal goods, smuggled in form another country'; why illegal? Makes me >think that Marc would then, as the embodiment of honesty, deal with the >situation (effectively the summoner has, knowiungkly or not, squealed >ion the goods/dealer). This I ask because I have a Malakite of Trade >(he's Lovejoy meets Worf!) who never keeps stolen merchandise. Free Trade, unrestricted by artificial limitations/tariffs/rules. Marc is not always a "good guy"... >d) And is it my imgaination or does thhe us e of Resonance seem a >little Hard - just having to roll Perception or less (never mind any >Dissonance, mind you that's just tough luck!). or is Celestial Forces >added to this? Is it meant to be that tough? Roll Perception on 2 dice, yup, that's the angelic resonance (with the exception of Kyriotates, who use Will). Once you get to about 7 Perception, you make more than you miss. You can even get pretty annoying with a 6, but a 5 is starting to get pathetic... Demons use Will as the base for their resonance, except for Lilim, who use Perception. Some celestials get bonuses to their resonances -- Dominic's Seraphim, for instance. >e) [...]if there >was/is or ever will be an Archangel of Enlightenment [...] Maybe. Maybe not. You are not cleared for that information, Servitor. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:36:42 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Ethereal Gods (Re: Native Americans and others) At 10:43 AM -0400 6/15/98, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > >For my own game, I punted the ethereals altogether. What passes for >"ethereal gods" IMC are outcast angels and renegade demons, souls of >the damned escaped from hell, and the exiles (who are the angels who >were kicked out of Heaven for remaining neutral in the original War). From what I managed to decipher from a French web-page about the original, what we call ethereal gods may well have been what our IN calls the Nephallim. (Or Nephalim. WHATEVER.) And Uriel waged war upon them for the obvious reasons... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:38:19 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Knowledge skills (Re: IN- Native Americans and others) At 4:49 PM +0200 6/15/98, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: >Seriously, I'm just looking for some way of quantifying a characters >familiarity with humanity. Does the Seraph understand the concept of "fast >food"? Can the Cherub use a parking meter? Could the Djinn order a pizza >if it could be bothered to? Use Knowledge (Current Human Society) or Knowledge (Anthropology) or one's Role level added to Int, maybe? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:48:45 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? At 11:45 AM -0400 6/15/98, Emily Dresner wrote: >>>[...] In Nomine and Judaism are mutually incompatible from >>> the base level on up. > >Lack of Hell, largely lack of Heaven, and the whole 'you will have no Gods >beside me' thing. [...] I wonder... I wonder how much of Judaism, in the IN universe, was crafted *before* the Fall? How much before demons started showing up in the Marches and on Earth? After all, Hell did *not* exist for a long time. Heaven, as Heaven, was much different. Demons weren't around... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:51:11 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Norse Gods (Re: )Native Americans and others At 12:19 PM -0500 6/15/98, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >I guess it's canonical that worship gives Essence to the worshipped, >but don't Ethereals generate Essence themselves, like humans and >celestials? The additional Essence from worshippers would be >mighty handy -- even vitally handy if you need it to power tricks >you need to pull in order to survive -- but maybe it's not needed >just to keep existing. Also, the Norse may have had a number of their own dead worshippers hanging around giving them Essence (like the souls in Hell, and, as cynical demons believe, those in Heaven...). I suspect that a major component of the pantheons who did *not* survive was the kicking out of all their dead souls from their afterlife. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:52:33 -0400 From: "Robb Kidd" Subject: RE: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? > Seems like you have a widely divergent idea from canonical In Nomine (at > least as I've seen it). Well, yea. I like divergent ideas. I didn't say it was a -good- one. As you say farther one here, just a thought ... > ... Let's see, God, Satan, Garden, Angels, dead > returning on occasion, Apocolypse, good people doing bad things, bad > people doing worse things. Nope, it's all there. Quite right. I raised the idea because the presentation of God, Satan and Company in game canon differs quite dramatically to actual Church canon. Being such an annoying little disciple of Pratchett and loving _Small Gods_ terribly, I wondered if the divergence between Church canon and game canon would create off-shoot YHWHs and Gods into the Marches. (This is related quite closely to another conversation thread in the list involving the origin of Marches dwellers. Whether they are created by the collective imaginations of corporeal beings or whether they exist regardless and take advantage of a symbiotic relationship with corporeal belief.) > [...] > > While I can understand why you would postulate a YHWH and > (schizoprenic?) Christian March god, I would disagree because Lawrence > and Dominic have sewn up Christian worship for (for want of a better > term) God Incarnate. ... Not necessarily because it is -right- and -correct-, though. If you read the Way Things Are in game canon, they don't jive with modern Christian and Islamic canon in -any- of their many forms. Christians aren't Right, they just happen to be close. Maybe a few of the great Judeo-Christian-Islamic mystics managed to pierce the ethereal realm and glimpsed visions of the Celestial realm. How the desert folk managed to progress from fanatically following a Canaanite storm god to talking about the True Creator, I don't know. It's not really addressed in the game and this is part of what I'm trying to reconcile, if only for myself. My impression of Dominic's and Laurence's support of Christianity is to gather humanity under one banner of faith, one set of rules to hash out all that Heretical Grey Area and Wooly Thinking. I might have missed it, but I don't recall it being mentioned that the two Archangels were supporting Christianity because it was True. > [...] This means that the Essence streams you envision going to a > bearded guy with sandals isn't going to the Marches at all, it's going > to the Big Guy. But, hey, it's your game... Yep. And I haven't implemented these ideas in my game. I'm not even saying that they -should- be. I'm just thinking out loud and hoping for responses. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 16:10:16 -0700 From: alloni@ibsystems.com (Alloni Kramer) Subject: Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? >>>>[...] In Nomine and Judaism are mutually incompatible from >>>> the base level on up. >> >>Lack of Hell, largely lack of Heaven, and the whole 'you will have no Gods >>beside me' thing. [...] > > I wonder... I wonder how much of >Judaism, in the IN universe, was crafted *before* the Fall? How much >before demons started showing up in the Marches and on Earth? > >After all, Hell did *not* exist for a long time. Heaven, as Heaven, >was much different. Demons weren't around... Well, Heaven and Hell aside, there are demons in Jewish folktales. They tend to refer to more hideous twisted monstrous nasties than the slightly more mental nastiness you find in In Nomine, but at least there is something. Shedim dybbuks, anyone? Alloni ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 19:11:49 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? > I wonder... I wonder how much of > Judaism, in the IN universe, was crafted *before* the Fall? How much > before demons started showing up in the Marches and on Earth? > > After all, Hell did *not* exist for a long time. Heaven, as Heaven, > was much different. Demons weren't around... It all depends on when you want to set the Fall. If it happened right after Eden, well, no dice. You have a heck of alot of Old Testament to work through before you can even get near the line of David, let alone Christ. But this would suppose that we were running religion in some sort of real-time here. If Judaism somehow was explained to Abraham (and this is very possible, as in Genesis he is visited by three angels who explain Things to him) as to mirror before the Fall, you might be able to start working in elements here and there. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 19:12:43 -0400 From: "Robb Kidd" Subject: RE: IN> Native Americans and others > Someone suggested that NONE of the religions are completely right. This > raises a few issues. For example, why is it that none of the religions > have it completely right? Wouldn't be in Heaven's > best interest to teach humanity the truth religion practiced in Heaven and > if so, why are haven't angels taken an effort to teach us the true faith? > Maybe almost all (we will exclude Branch Davidians and Nazi Wotanics and > many other such faiths) of the religions are completely right. Makes a > lot more sense to me. Here's another question as a corollary: What purpose would a religion that is True (i.e. dead on to the Way Things Are as presented by game canon) serve? Would it even be a "religion" then? Wouldn't it be fact? Depends, of course, on your definition of the word "religion", of which I've found 12. If a god showed up in public on a daily basis, would you worship it? Would you need to? Would you mention "faith" in your worship? Would you need "faith" in something you were sharing a bagel with in a corner coffee shop? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:30:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Norse Gods (Re: )Native Americans and others On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 12:19 PM -0500 6/15/98, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > >I guess it's canonical that worship gives Essence to the worshipped, > >but don't Ethereals generate Essence themselves, like humans and > >celestials? The additional Essence from worshippers would be > >mighty handy -- even vitally handy if you need it to power tricks > >you need to pull in order to survive -- but maybe it's not needed > >just to keep existing. > Also, the Norse may have had a number of their own dead worshippers > hanging around giving them Essence (like the souls in Hell, and, as > cynical demons believe, those in Heaven...). I suspect that a major > component of the pantheons who did *not* survive was the kicking out > of all their dead souls from their afterlife. That would make sense in canon: the Marches implies that the Norse were in much better shape than most pantheons because they were expecting Ragnarok and were prepared to evacuate. Though I think the approach that makes the *most* sense is that pagan religions were either (1) created by angels to try to teach people the right actions, (2) created by demons to try to corrupt people, or (3) created by Outcasts and/or Renegades to steal Essence. (Either that or a White Wolf Mage: the Ascension 'Whatever is Believed is True.' Which is actually pretty cool but it's been done.) Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:15:13 GMT+10 From: "Leath Sheales" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: RE: IN> Native Americans and others Not sure who wrote this, but I'll reply: > > Someone suggested that NONE of the religions are completely right. This > > raises a few issues. For example, why is it that none of the religions > > have it completely right? Wouldn't be in Heaven's > > best interest to teach humanity the truth religion practiced in Heaven and > > if so, why are haven't angels taken an effort to teach us the true faith? I think none of the religions being 100% correct works quite well. Think about it: Angels (and demons) aren't even allowed to tell humanity that Celestial Beings really do exist, that Heaven exists, and so does Hell. God forbids it. If they were allowed to reveal all of this, I picture quite a few million humans actually waking up to themselves and realising that Hell awaits if they are not careful. So humans blindly stagger along, keeping faith with teaching sthat have subtly changed through the ages. For example, in a RPG called "The End" the interpretation of Jesus' quote "The meek shall inherit the earth," has been subtly changed from reassurance to a veiled threat. When Armageddon arrived, those people who had been too apathetic to bother choosing a side (with their actions) were unabel to be damned or saved. So they've been stranded on a post-apocalyptic earth for the rest of their lives, with no hope to an after life. If they had have known what was coming before, they probably would have led more religious lives. Heaven's bbest interest would be in teaching humanity about the truth, but God's best interest (IMO) is to let humans blindly follow their free will, to see how His experiment works out. Leath.. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:02:57 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Tethers >>>I'd like to pick your brains then, The only two that I have are: Alcatraz-Dominic Haigt-Ashbury-Novalis, or Fleurity<<< Well, I can't really go into detail, _because_ what I am working on may well actually be published. However, I don't really see Alcatraz as a Tether to Dominic. SF is definitely a major power center for Novalis, though. The most influential Demon Princes in SF are probably Andrealphus and Fleurity, but Kobal, Malphas and Kronos all have had their hands in the city's workings. In general, though, I see San Francisco as one of the cities where the Host is much stronger than the infernals. Heaven doesn't have as tight a grip on the city as Hell has on L.A., but angelic Tethers definitely outnumber diabolical Tethers (there may or may not actually be any diabolical Tethers in the city of San Francisco itself, though there will certainly be some in the surrounding Bay Area). - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:03:03 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Tethers >>>Haight-Ashbury is a tether of Mamnon, Prince of Greed. It is one of the richests districts in the City by the Bay.<<< Being a rich district doesn't necessarily make it a Tether to Greed. Although it is getting gentrified, the Haight also remains one of the last remnants of the hippie movement. Mammon may have interests there, but I wouldn't assume he's quite won out over Novalis....especially since Marc is also a major presence in San Francisco. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:14:22 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Native Americans and others >>>I don't remember the details, but wasn't this a re-wording of a definition used in a Real Book?<<< A lot of Real Books are horribly misinformed and inaccurate. I've seen plenty of books where "shaman" was basically used to mean "any religious leader in a pre-industrial society" or "any spiritually oriented person who intercedes with 'spirits' as opposed to 'gods'." The fact that something is in a "Real Book" doesn't mean it's an educated definition. Consult Real Books written by people who know what they're talking about. >>>But still useful, when used in the appropriate manner.<<< Writing, say, a roleplaying supplement in which is depicted "European religious beliefs and culture", treating them as part of one monolithic tradition, would not be appropriate. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 98 21:43:22 -0400 From: David Wood Subject: IN> Five Blind Men and an Elephant Quoth in_nomine-digest on 6/15/98 4:19 AM... >Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 23:35:27 -0400 (EDT) >From: "Jesse L. Rooney" >Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others > >One question and a pair of definitions. > >Someone suggested that NONE of the religions are completely right. This >raises a few issues. For example, why is it that none of the religions >have it completely right? The title should answer the question. Humans, due to their limited perspective, are incapable of perceiving enough of the Symphony to understand it all, much less encapsulate it in a book easy enough for everyone else to dig with. > Wouldn't be in Heaven's best interest to teach >humanity the truth religion practiced in Heaven and if so, why are >haven't angels taken an effort to teach us the true faith? Some have. Remember Laurence's experiment with one particular soldier in an attempt to open the eyes of the Catholics? That was Martin Luther. Whoopsie. (from Night Music, and his write-up) Aside from the fact that attempts have been made, I can think of two very good reasons why they wouldn't want to: 1. The Pseudopatient Problem: If they knew that there were divine and infernal beings among them, they would act very differently. As is, the whole reason for creating humans in the first place is not known, and in some danger because of the war. Telling them about it would surely knock it perforce down the kitchen stairs -- they would drastically changed their behavior in an attempt to appease whatever forces may be watching. Or not; see below. This is primarily a concern for the angels. 2. The Interference Problem: If they knew they were being watched, they might take sides in the war. And humans, being the unpredictable, fickle creatures with limited foresight that they are, might take up with the wrong side or otherwise wreak merry havoc with one's own forces. Both sides would be concerned with this, as both sides at one time or another have problems guiding Soldiers. Imagine if everyone was like that... 3. The Lack of Fog Of War: As it is, not knowing who's on whose side is beneficial to them, because it allows both sides to carry on what business they can. If the humans knew about it, and knew what to look for, they could finger each side to the other, and would do so repeatedly. It might not bring about Armageddon early, but it sure would make for some hotter battles. And again, both sides probably feel they don't have the forces to spare like that. Given those reasons, if word of the Symphony got out to a few enterprising humans, I betcha both sides would act quick to put the kibosh on them. >Maybe almost all (we will exclude Branch Davidians and Nazi Wotanics and >many other such faiths) of the religions are completely right. Makes a >lot more sense to me. Not completely; remember the analogy of the blind men and the elephants. Each one drew an incomplete conclusion based on what he felt. And quoth the fifth blind man, "No no no, you're all wrong. Elephant is warm, squishy, and smelly. I stepped in some and had to scrape it off my shoes." Give each a right point or two based on what superiors might have influenced them, and leave it at that. Or not. - --David http://home.bluecrab.org/~dwood "We use only the finest baby frogs, dew picked and flown from Iraq, cleansed in finest quality spring water, lightly killed, and then sealed in a succulent Swiss quintuple smooth treble cream milk chocolate envelope and lovingly frosted with glucose." -Monty Python, episode 6 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:07:37 -0400 From: Afterburner Subject: Re: IN> questions from a would-be player >(1)First of all, what is it that you, as players (especially game >masters), like about In Nomine? The intangible coolness of the idea of being able to play Angels and Demons. My theological position can be summed up with the phrase "Pro-Religion atheist." This game naturally peaked my curiosity. I'm also fascinated with the concept of Normal Folks(tm) physically combatting the minions of Hell (cf. Doom, Doom II, the movie _Fallen_, the "Reality Dysfunction" books by Peter F. Hamilton, and many others too numerous to mention, for references). I got hooked on Doom II (and the game still sends chills down my spine) due to the very concept of invading Hell itself. So In Nomine held a particular fascination for me. If I have one complaint, it's that the game so far *doesn't[1]* expand this theme along the dark lines I had anticipated. (Don't get me wrong: I'm not some nihilist goth type fascinated by death and destruction. I'm basically a high-tech redneck. It's just...I dunno...the idea holds a certain "je ne sais quois" that I can't quite put into words.) >(2)I gather from a story I read that demons can posses the bodies of >humans in order to move about on Earth. How does that work for Angles? Certain types of Demons (i.e. Shedim) can possess humans, just like certain types of Angels (i.e. Kyriotates). Shedim are Fallen Kyriotates. >(3) Now for the tough stuff, the religions questions. Forgive me if I >step on anybodies toes here, I don't mean to. I find this game >interesting because I'm an agnostic/pagan with a Christian upbringing. >I've also been, more or less, persecuted by Christians of various types >for my personal values, situational ethics, and arguements against >history as the Bible tells it. I enjoy writing, and I see In Nomine as >an interesting oppertunity to express a few of my own ideas about >religion and to finally make use of the Biblical trivia I learned in >four years of Christian high school. Is there anyone around here with a >similar story to my own? I gather that the people on this list are all >fairly open minded, otherwise there'd be nothing but constant flaming. >Am I right to assume this? See above. Pro-religion atheist. Some folks have a hard time with that. Afterburner [1] Caveat: I only have the basic rulebook, "Night Music," and the "Angelic Players Guide" at this point, so my definitive statement about the game not darkly exploring the concept of Hell should be taken with a very large grain of salt. It may very well be that the game *has* explored these avenues in a supplement I haven't yet purchased. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 23:08:12 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> The Eight >>>If you're interested in this, it sounds like a great tie in to a book I read a few years ago. Katherine Nevil's (I konw I spelled that wrong) _The Eight_. It's all about the struggle for a great chess set that held mystical powers and was designed for King Charlemaign of France. It's a great book and I highly reccomend it. It's also relatively obscure I think, as it's the only book I've found that Nevil's written.<<< Read it, loved it, but it didn't strike me as particularly In Nomine-ish. - -David (but for my GURPS Highlander campaign, OTOH...) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 23:42:12 -0400 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Judaism and the Fall (was Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity?) Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > I wonder... I wonder how much of > Judaism, in the IN universe, was crafted *before* the Fall? How much > before demons started showing up in the Marches and on Earth? > > After all, Hell did *not* exist for a long time. Heaven, as Heaven, > was much different. Demons weren't around... If one postulates that Yves had something to do with the formation of Judaism then one must wonder if he knew of Lucifer's Fate. The Lightbringer's purpose in Heaven before the fall was (sorry) to shed light on things, to look at them from a different angle. (sorry again) In other words, to play Devil's Advocate. What makes me wonder is that there are times that Lucifer does not seem to be on the up and up in Jewish Scripture. It just makes me wonder if Yves was letting humans know his prophesy before he let the others in Heaven in on it. Or possibly if even Yves didn't know what the whole story with the Lightbringer was, how did the humans? Leaves a bit to the wondering mind. Of course many of the stories that paint Lucifer as a bit off center might have been changed after the fact. Many of the earliest stories that are kept intellectually intact in the Torah were not always in such a pristine place. As many have pointed out Judaism started as a small tribal religion so many of its stories were passed down by word of mouth for generations before being preserved. Apparently I'm rambling, but hey that's my two cents. Andrew ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #827 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.