From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Jul 13 07:03:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA02972 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 07:03:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id GAA11941 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 06:55:59 -0500 Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 06:55:59 -0500 Message-Id: <199807131155.GAA11941@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #852 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, July 13 1998 Volume 01 : Number 852 In this digest: Re: IN> Angels and Governments Re: IN> Angels and Governments Re: IN> Angels and Governments IN> Re: RE: nasty ... Re: IN> Re: RE: nasty ... IN> Angels and Governments IN> A Game of Ideology Re: IN> Angels and Governments IN> [FLUFF] A Brief Conversation... Re: IN> An IN LARP story/Gaming Quote Re: IN> Angels and Governments Re: IN> Re: IN- Word-Bound Servitors of David IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #851 IN> Q Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #851 Re: IN> Q ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 20:14:47 +0300 From: Yossi Gurvitz Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Governments At 11:35 AM 7/12/98 , you wrote: Hello, Armand. subverting a person's will. A government who breaks down the will of as >>many people as possible to its own end is liable to be considered evil, by >>this criteria. >First of all, this assumes that there is free will. As far as I know, this >is an issue that Canon isn't touching with a 10' pitchfork. Oh, I think free will is essential when moral absolutes are assumed. Without free will, any action loses its meaning. You might as well be a demon as an angel; you have no control of your actions. >Second, why do we always think of it as braking the human will. As a >pastor told me once on why the Christian church was the only way to >Salvation, "We're right. If you saw a bunch of people in a raft heading >toward a waterfall, you'd warn them and try to show them the right way?" For some reason or other, religious figures just love the metaphor of the sinking boat... >Kind of oppressive if you ask me, but I haven't heard a rally cry against >the Presbytarian's for this. (It was printed in a pamphlet on how to >convert non Presbytarians) The Presbyterians do not break anyone's will by preaching - people can choose not to listen to them, after all. This is not the same as a fascist country, where you have no choice but to obey the commands of the government. >For an angelic example of Fascism, check out Dominic. Man, that guy has >some serious oppression issues; but what side is he on? [bein' rhetorical >here.] The way I see it, Dominic only spies on those angels who get assigned to earth. If so, anyone who wishes to avoid the scrutiny of old Bugeyes just has to get a cushy job in Heaven. But, yes, this "internal police" schtick is disturbing. Then again, every army needs its internal security branch - nobody likes defectors. And the Heavenly Host is, after all, a Host: a military camp. I have very little symphathy towards Dominic (in fact, my character, a former Outcast Malakite of Fire, is on his hit list), but his job is essential. On s related topic: Gabriel is the Archangel of Vengeance, Dominic the Archangel of Justice. The two should be working closely together, but, as we all know, they don't. How would that effect the actions of angels from both camps? Both are, after all, working for much the same goals, while their superiors are busy tearing each other apart... Yours, Yossi ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 17:14:47 +0300 From: Yossi Gurvitz Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Governments At 11:35 AM 7/12/98 , you wrote: Hello, Armand. subverting a person's will. A government who breaks down the will of as >>many people as possible to its own end is liable to be considered evil, by >>this criteria. >First of all, this assumes that there is free will. As far as I know, this >is an issue that Canon isn't touching with a 10' pitchfork. Oh, I think free will is essential when moral absolutes are assumed. Without free will, any action loses its meaning. You might as well be a demon as an angel; you have no control of your actions. >Second, why do we always think of it as braking the human will. As a >pastor told me once on why the Christian church was the only way to >Salvation, "We're right. If you saw a bunch of people in a raft heading >toward a waterfall, you'd warn them and try to show them the right way?" For some reason or other, religious figures just love the metaphor of the sinking boat... >Kind of oppressive if you ask me, but I haven't heard a rally cry against >the Presbytarian's for this. (It was printed in a pamphlet on how to >convert non Presbytarians) The Presbyterians do not break anyone's will by preaching - people can choose not to listen to them, after all. This is not the same as a fascist country, where you have no choice but to obey the commands of the government. >For an angelic example of Fascism, check out Dominic. Man, that guy has >some serious oppression issues; but what side is he on? [bein' rhetorical >here.] The way I see it, Dominic only spies on those angels who get assigned to earth. If so, anyone who wishes to avoid the scrutiny of old Bugeyes just has to get a cushy job in Heaven. But, yes, this "internal police" schtick is disturbing. Then again, every army needs its internal security branch - nobody likes defectors. And the Heavenly Host is, after all, a Host: a military camp. I have very little symphathy towards Dominic (in fact, my character, a former Outcast Malakite of Fire, is on his hit list), but his job is essential. On s related topic: Gabriel is the Archangel of Vengeance, Dominic the Archangel of Justice. The two should be working closely together, but, as we all know, they don't. How would that effect the actions of angels from both camps? Both are, after all, working for much the same goals, while their superiors are busy tearing each other apart... Yours, Yossi ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:32:36 +0300 From: Yossi Gurvitz Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Governments Hello, Armand. >First of all, this assumes that there is free will. As far as I know, this >is an issue that Canon isn't touching with a 10' pitchfork. Oh, I think that when we are assuming moral absolutes, we also have to accept free will. Otherwise, there is simply no way to make a difference between good and evil actions. >Second, why do we always think of it as braking the human will. As a >pastor told me once on why the Christian church was the only way to >Salvation, "We're right. If you saw a bunch of people in a raft heading >toward a waterfall, you'd warn them and try to show them the right way?" The metaphor of the sinking boat is, for a peculiar reason, a favorite of religous figures. >Kind of oppressive if you ask me, but I haven't heard a rally cry against >the Presbytarian's for this. (It was printed in a pamphlet on how to >convert non Presbytarians) There is a huge difference, I am sure you will agree, between a minister preaching to his folk - who can get up and leave if they dislike what they hear - and a totalitarian state, who can impose Draconian penalties upon its political rivals. One can only persuede, while the other can compel. >For an angelic example of Fascism, check out Dominic. Man, that guy has >some serious oppression issues; but what side is he on? [bein' rhetorical >here.] If I understand it correctly, Dominic is only interested in those angels assigned to earth, those who can actually fall or be corrupted. In that case, an angel wanting to avoid the unfortunate scrutiny of Old Bugeyes only has to find himself a cushy job in Heaven. Apart from that, every military needs a wing of internal security, and we should not forget that the Heavenly Host is first and foremost a Host. I dislike Dominic, personally - my character, a former Outcast Malakite of Fire, is on his hit list - but he does have an essential job to do. Quibble: Gabriel is, among other things, in charge of Vengeance. Dominic is in charge of Justice - those two words are very close to each other, but, alas, the two archangels don't get along all that well. How would that reflect on their servitors? Will they cooperate - they have very similar goals - or will they hinder each other, or at least regard one another with hostility? Yours, Yossi ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 13:45:48 PDT From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> Re: RE: nasty ... Armand replies to my post; thus I retort... When I say that David might Symphony 'it's not about the winning, its about the taking part' I don't mean that in terms of the Final Outcome, I mean perhaps David feels that in the 'coming together' people benefit from that strength. What they do with that strength may well be to then go out and smash a few infernal heads together. If that takes the form of Skinheads, Punks, Mods, Rockers, Hippies or Politicians - so be it. But when the group begins to exclude others to the extreme surely it risks defeating itself. Surely if David encourages people to get together he would rather everyone worked together as one, rather than have the strength of all broken up into two opposing factions for instance that can't get anything done for bickering. Sometimes it seems as though government is like tat. Doesn't every kid wonder, at some point, whether they would be better working together rather than opposed? Something about synergy. And that's another Word or David. Admittedly he's one AA I haven't gotten acquainted with yet, so this discussion is very helpful. but does David encourage violence as of itself, though - do the 'groups' have to fight each other or is that the result of infernal influence? (there's probably an unhealthy amount of me creeping into all this, but that's the nature of the beast isn't it). That may seem simplistic and naïve, and I realise that, but I'm just exploring. In the end how does the REAL real world (the one beyond the rulebook) relate to the gameworld? >And really, what form of IN do you play? There is a war on, whether >you play it as a hot or cold war. The prise is the destiny/fate of the >world. Good question; ask me in a few months :) Seriously, is the goal that 'simple' and was it ever mentioned. You make it sound like a boxing match! God the timekeeper says: " seconds away...", surely nothng is that simple and David could just as easily be wrong - as could the Angels. That's the beauty of the game, at least for me, the unanswered questins are exactly that and hopefully they'll stay unanswereed. Keep the mystery (otherwise this list wouldn't be half as much fun!). anyway, all this talk of War, where does that leave Novalis and the Angel(s) of Peace. Oh right, Peace, except when there's Demons to be killed. Kindness, Virtue; surely something unconditional. >I cannot take seriously the thought of any of the AA's sitting around in a bright victory setting and mourning because someone had to lose. Well, what about Novalis, er, again!. I'm sure Yves would shed a few tears for the lost. That seems a very dispassionate view to take. Maybe the more militant AA's would feel that way, but not all of them - it's their nature. Not to say they wouldn't be glad it's all over, but would they not spare a moment in silence for the Fallen and the lost (perhaps lost forever) You say a lot of good stuff my friend, and I get, from you, a picture of David as one of the most realistic and practical of the Host, but where groups divide, which was my point (I hope!), do they not run the risk of shooting themselves in the foot. What about the casualties of such behaviors (gang rumbles and turf wars - world wars even) what about their fates/destinies, what about their souls? What does David say about them? Marnie - tryin' to make sense of it all! "Don't start, my heart is a smoking gun, and nothing can be done." (Joni Mitchell) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 21:57:47 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Re: RE: nasty ... At 13:45 12/07/98 PDT, you wrote: >Not to say they wouldn't be glad it's all over, but would >they not spare a moment in silence for the Fallen and the lost (perhaps >lost forever) > Wouldn't it be sublime if.. the war was won, Lucifer was brought before the divine throne in chains, Hell was purged completely. The angels prepare to settle on their laurels and withdraw from earth completely when they notice that the level of evil on earth hasn't actually lessened at all. The demons were supposed to be teaching mortals to do evil things, but somewhere over the millenia the students surpassed the teachers :) jo (Things to do if I was a Mercurian #4: Resonate myself to find out who my friends _really_ are) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 18:37:11 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Angels and Governments >>>Doesn't sound to good to me. There is a fine line between a common garden dictator, who may or may not have the best interest of their people at heart (whether or not rthey call themselves king/president/god) and a fascist. I don't believe fascism can have heavenly support. Especially considering that those we call fascists are all what is generally considered evil.<<< "What is generally considered evil." If you want to see examples of other people vehemently arguing that something they personally despise couldn't _possibly_ be supported by Heaven, go back and reread the almost-flamewar that occurred before I posted my Angels and Demons of Abortion. I'm not a fascist, I greatly dislike fascism, and I would oppose any fascist government. I feel much the same way about communism. However, it is not beyond my imagination to conceive of a benevolent communist or fascist state....or of a reason why angels might support either of those systems. - -David (and I have a dictionary too) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 19:00:58 -0400 From: "Matthew D. Gandy" Subject: IN> A Game of Ideology Greetings all, I just joined the list a few days ago, and immediately picked up on the David/governements thread. I'm glad to see there is this much discussion about IN's finer points. That's why I love the game--it's as much a game of ideology as it is a game of celestial intervention. For my two cents worth, I'd agree that fascism has a bad connotation, and it seems that celestials are just as concerned about the connotations of words (perhaps more so) than their denotations. However, there probably is a Servitor of David with the Word of Fascism . . . or there *was*. It is very easy to imagine a Fallen Servitor who works for Baal or Kronos or Malphas now; someone who thought fascism was a good idea (like Marxist Communism), but got too wrapped up in the practical implementation of fascist theory in government and Fell. On the subject of David, I sincerely believe that some Archangels are more "sinister" than others, because they are hardliners (Michael), are inscrutable (Dominic, or Yves at his most mysterious) or have very different priorities from the majority (Jordi). I think David catches less notice than some of the others, like Dominic or Michael, for obvious reasons (he isn't shouting about traitorous angels or Laurence's mishandlings constantly). But as the teaser for _Fall of the Malakim_ seems to indicate, this is not an Archangel to trifle with--David's "punishment" is just as harsh as Michael's, perhaps more so. Is David in danger of Falling, like Khalid? Probably not. Has David made his share of mistake due to something of a granite streak of stubbornness? Probably so. As far as the divying up of Words to the appropriate Choir/Band or Superior, it's a tricky question. I'm just as likely as some of you to agonize over getting it *just right*, but let's face it: both sides make mistakes about the assignment of Words, and the occasional Word-Bound is assigned to a somewhat inappropriate Superior. It *happens*. After all, Dominic seens to have trusted Asmodeus implicitly, but has probably been that much more paranoid ever since. They learn from their mistakes (especially Demon Princes, or they don't remain either demons or Princes very long), but they're not infallible. As an example, I'm thinking of making my local gaming shop a Tether of Asmodeus in my game, not because it is a haven for Hell's Infernal Police, but because it is a gaming shop and thus falls under the purview of the Demon Prince of the Game. Does he like it or take care of it like a Tether in the Supreme Court or the Houses of Parliament? Nope, but you don't look a gift-horse in the mouth--whether it's full of rules-lawyers or real ones, it's still his demesne, like it or not. Oh, and on a last note (sorry this is so long!), I would say that David is just as concerned about winning as others, but his mentality might be to see that losing strengths the vanquished, either physically or through insight, so it's not a total loss. The War is a different matter--no Archangel wants to lose the Final Battle, and some, I think David included, aren't particularly interested in whether or not the Other Side learned their lesson about the Rebellion, like the errant schoolchildren they obviously are not. Hoping I've more of a help than a hindrance, Matthew D. "Demiurge" Gandy "still looking for the face I had before the world was made" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 16:26:23 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Governments >At 11:35 AM 7/12/98 , you wrote: > > Hello, Armand. > >subverting a person's will. A government who breaks down the will of as >>>many people as possible to its own end is liable to be considered evil, by >>>this criteria. > >>First of all, this assumes that there is free will. As far as I know, this >>is an issue that Canon isn't touching with a 10' pitchfork. > Oh, I think free will is essential when moral absolutes are assumed. >Without free will, any action loses its meaning. You might as well be a >demon as an angel; you have no control of your actions. This assumes that there is not an ineffible plan. In the presence of an ineffible plan, where is there free will? I take this into considerations whe I think that this is a game where they recommend that you read "Good Omens" (a book that hinges highly on the ineffible plan tangent.) >>Second, why do we always think of it as braking the human will. As a >>pastor told me once on why the Christian church was the only way to >>Salvation, "We're right. If you saw a bunch of people in a raft heading >>toward a waterfall, you'd warn them and try to show them the right way?" > For some reason or other, religious figures just love the metaphor of the >sinking boat... > >>Kind of oppressive if you ask me, but I haven't heard a rally cry against >>the Presbytarian's for this. (It was printed in a pamphlet on how to >>convert non Presbytarians) > The Presbyterians do not break anyone's will by preaching - people can >choose not to listen to them, after all. This is not the same as a fascist >country, where you have no choice but to obey the commands of the government. Unless you want to go to Heaven when you die. Sort of like you get rewarded by following the mandates of the state. Of course, this assumes that they have a seat on the board. >>For an angelic example of Fascism, check out Dominic. Man, that guy has >>some serious oppression issues; but what side is he on? [bein' rhetorical >>here.] > The way I see it, Dominic only spies on those angels who get assigned to >earth. If so, anyone who wishes to avoid the scrutiny of old Bugeyes just >has to get a cushy job in Heaven. But, yes, this "internal police" schtick >is disturbing. Then again, every army needs its internal security branch - >nobody likes defectors. And the Heavenly Host is, after all, a Host: a >military camp. I have very little symphathy towards Dominic (in fact, my >character, a former Outcast Malakite of Fire, is on his hit list), but his >job is essential. I think that there is a difference between a military police force and a secret police organization. I think Dommie keeps a tighter leash than just stopping by once in a while. "It is also dissonant for them to overlook what _they_ feel to be heresy in an angel." Ack! > On s related topic: Gabriel is the Archangel of Vengeance, Dominic the >Archangel of Justice. The two should be working closely together, but, as >we all know, they don't. >How would that effect the actions of angels from both camps? Both are, >after all, working for much the same goals, while their superiors are busy >tearing each other apart... > > Yours, > Yossi My thoughts on this are that Vengeance can get out of hand. Dommie's boys tend to mete out the exact value of punishment for the crime. Also, and I think that people forget this side of Dommie, his Servitors defend the innocent. Gabriel avenges the wrong doing. Again, she might get going after the wrong person. Just my thoughts, Armand ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 21:30:26 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: IN> [FLUFF] A Brief Conversation... Just a litle something Graveyard Greg and I worked up on EFnet's #innomine, during a lull in the onversation. He was David, I was Gabriel. Hope you like it. Gabriel: "I remember when all this was Hydrogen. We had some helium too back then, but none of this other stuff. We didn't have all these dinky little stars either. The whole universe was performing fusion all over the place. It was nice and warm back then, too." David: "It wasn't very solid. It took at least a few millenia before I could call it home." Gabriel: "Solid? Who needs solid? it was all pure plasma. Even on Earth, we're barely a few hundred degrees above absolute zero most of the time. I don't know how you stand it." David: "...." David: "And I'm sure it was your idea for molen rock?" David: "Just couldn't stand to bother with perfection, could you?" Gabriel: "Well, something has to keep moving the continents around." David: "Why? It's fine the way it is.." Gabriel: "You've been saying that ever since the late Precambrian." David: "And I'll keep on saying it until Judgement Day." David: "And besides, I LIKED Pangea...Everyone was within walking distance..." Gabriel: "That big old Ocean on the other side of the planet was just plain boring to look at. And if it weren't for continental drift, all your lovely mountains would wind up at the bottom of the ocean in a couple hundred million years or so. You should thank me." David: "Thank you? The continental drift was Janus' idea, not yours!" Gabriel: "Details, details." David: "..." Gabriel: "I'm bored. There's a supergiant star off in Aquarius that looks about ripe to go. It's not the same...but for now, it'll have to do." David: "I'm late for the premiere of Armageddon." Gabriel: "Speaking of which, have you seen my Trumpet anywhere? I set it down for a minute in the Gobi desert, and next thing I knew, it was gone." David: "You left it in Mount Fuji." David: "And try to be careful..the last time you lost something, there went Mount Saint Helens..." Gabriel: ""Well, if someone hadn't been plugging up the vents with rock, it wouldn't have exploded. Not that big, anyway." David: "Sure, blame me. And the meteor strike in Siberia was my fault too?" Gabriel: "You said it, not me." David: "..." Gabriel: "Anyway, I've got a trumpet to grab and a shockwave to ride. So long." *FWOOSH* ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Melvil, Djinn Knight of Fate, the Demon of Dewey Decimal System. nofori@pop3.utoledo.edu | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 21:44:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> An IN LARP story/Gaming Quote - ---Shadowstar wrote: > > *teeheehee* > > Okay, I'm done with the LARP. It only took me 3 months to get to this > point. Well, that and having my Angelic ST decide to get a job and run > off to the cesspool of all evil... *grin* > > However, we pulled it off. Game Mechanics were a nightmare, but we > did it. Though we didn't quite wind up where we wanted too... But > still, the Side of Good won. I'll have to try harder next time... *evil > grin* > > The more amusing moment came when Yves and Kronos were playing a Chess > game, to represent the metaphorical story behind the LARP. > > The PCs were gathered around, to hear the tale. And of course, one of > the Kyriotates of Destiny had to make the quip: "I'm Yves-dropping." Yves-dropping! LOL! Almost as funny as when an NPC Soldier of God told Gabriel off! > PS: Yes Greg, I'll finish the short stories based around the LARP... > You'll appreciate it considering what's going on in your game... > *teeheehee* > *perk* Huh? Who, me? Graveyard Greg _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 17:32:36 +0300 From: Yossi Gurvitz Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Governments Hello, Armand. >First of all, this assumes that there is free will. As far as I know, this >is an issue that Canon isn't touching with a 10' pitchfork. Oh, I think that when we are assuming moral absolutes, we also have to accept free will. Otherwise, there is simply no way to make a difference between good and evil actions. >Second, why do we always think of it as braking the human will. As a >pastor told me once on why the Christian church was the only way to >Salvation, "We're right. If you saw a bunch of people in a raft heading >toward a waterfall, you'd warn them and try to show them the right way?" The metaphor of the sinking boat is, for a peculiar reason, a favorite of religous figures. >Kind of oppressive if you ask me, but I haven't heard a rally cry against >the Presbytarian's for this. (It was printed in a pamphlet on how to >convert non Presbytarians) There is a huge difference, I am sure you will agree, between a minister preaching to his folk - who can get up and leave if they dislike what they hear - and a totalitarian state, who can impose Draconian penalties upon its political rivals. One can only persuede, while the other can compel. >For an angelic example of Fascism, check out Dominic. Man, that guy has >some serious oppression issues; but what side is he on? [bein' rhetorical >here.] If I understand it correctly, Dominic is only interested in those angels assigned to earth, those who can actually fall or be corrupted. In that case, an angel wanting to avoid the unfortunate scrutiny of Old Bugeyes only has to find himself a cushy job in Heaven. Apart from that, every military needs a wing of internal security, and we should not forget that the Heavenly Host is first and foremost a Host. I dislike Dominic, personally - my character, a former Outcast Malakite of Fire, is on his hit list - but he does have an essential job to do. Quibble: Gabriel is, among other things, in charge of Vengeance. Dominic is in charge of Justice - those two words are very close to each other, but, alas, the two archangels don't get along all that well. How would that reflect on their servitors? Will they cooperate - they have very similar goals - or will they hinder each other, or at least regard one another with hostility? Yours, Yossi ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:37:56 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Word-Bound Servitors of David On Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 04:21:36PM -0400, Casca wrote: > On Sat, 11 Jul 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > > > I've generally assumed that the Demon of Communism is a Habbalite of > > Factions, on the grounds that a Habbalite is more likely to believe in it. > > An Impudite patron doesn't work, because demons have to prevent human > > death whenever they can, whereas Mercurians can stand by, or even > > instigate it. > > Um...care to run that by me again? > Look it up. Impudites can't stand by and let humans get killed (except Impudites of Death, The War if the death is by honourable combat, and Dark Humour if it's funny). It reduces their precious Essence supplies, and that's what being an Impudite is all about. Note that in all cases where an Impudite doesn't get dissonance for killing someone, they can get Essence from it. And since the ideology of Communism has done a good job of getting people killed, I don't see how an Impudite can have that as a Word. Impudites of Factions get the weird words like Mercy. (Yes, I disagree entirely with Andrealphus' attunement for killing people you're having sex with. It actively discourages sex, for a start.) I can imagine a Habbalite of Factions believing in Communism quite easily though. And it's funnier if the Demon really believes in it. In fact, I'm pretty sure most of the political Words handed out by Malphas are given to Demons who genuinely believe in that ideology. It makes infighting among his followers that much more vicious. Except for the token few who are given Words to promote that they don't believe in, and who are despised by all and sundry if they are found out. (It's valuable research as well, because some of those will come to believe in that philosophy simply from arguing for it. It isn't just Balseraphs that works for.) Malphas' receptions for Wordbound must be very fun. I bet the Demon of Fascism gets seated next to the Demon of Libertarianism (with the Demon of Communism on the other side), and the Demon of Pacifism next to the likes of the Demon of Riots, the Demon of Political Murders (It might be argued that this should be one of Saminga's Words. This is precisely why Malphas will sponsor it), the Demon of Terrorism, the Demon of Vengeance, or whoever else you think might be suitable. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 03:07:27 PDT From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #851 After my last post; I sat down and thought about Stone. My main worry, though, is basically how does David avoid supporting Factions/Malphas (I use him because he seems the obvious rival, although there are others of course). Take the Northern Ireland situation (and pardon me for treading the hot coils of that one), there are two communities there who are each very strong - a credit to Stone, perhaps; but what about the hatred and violence? As I see it there are two possibilities: 1 - David and his Angels create the two communities, but Malphas comes along and plays them against each other; the troubles are his fault if you like. 2 - The troubles are nothing to do with Hell, but are also the result of David’s forces (something about being brutal as it says in the book). Perhaps it’s about ‘survival of the fittest’ or about further strengthening the two communities through the trials. Innocent deaths further strengthen the communities, but also increase the enmity between both sides If David supports groups/communal living he doesn’t necessarily support any one group over another - I don’t think. Therefore in his eyes the ‘whites’ aren’t better than the ‘blacks’ - a group is a group. So is it all a case of natural selection, fight for the right to see who’s the strongest because in the coming days you will need to be that hard, that tough and that strong. If you think life’s too tough now, then you haven’t got a prayer. David makes us fight for all we have and all we want - maybe so that we’ll appreciate it all the more. But what about the souls lost in the process, is David that cavalier? Does he say ‘hey if you don’t make the grade, then you don’t deserve paradise!’ Do they all go to Hell, no time for losers. That would seem dissonant, David sealing fates and fueling the fires like that. Perhaps I’m missing something, but how does David avoid supporting Factions, because that’s what groups do by definition. I am x therefore I can’t be y; does Stone draw the line at I am x and I hate y - we are the best. If he doesn’t draw the line, well then what about ol’ Factions? He might as well retire in Stygia and watch the souls roll in. or maybe it’s that darned human freewill thing. Men form groups and communities, but decide all by themselves that their group is no.1. what’s the difference? On the subject of what the war is about - has it ever been mentioned? I remember a review I read of IN in Arcane magazine, they criticised the game for that, and also for not getting into a serious enough discussion about the concepts of Good and Evil. I personally feel that’s for the best - on both counts, actually. Something about ineffability, perhaps, but if everything was laid out neatly like a dinner table, there would no interest in this game for me. Marnie - who apologises for his horrific grammar and promises to sort out his infernal spllechecker. "It wasn’t in the words that kept sticking in their throats; it wasn’t with the angels and their quilted coats; these battered wings still kick up dust," (Peter Gabriel, Only Us) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:17:37 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Q Does a cherub automatically deattune when its vessel is killed, or is it possible for an angel to continue to get dissonant (and possibly even fall) whilst in trauma, if something happens to its attunement when it isn't there to protect them? jo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:00:53 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #851 On Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 03:07:27AM -0700, Martin Arnold wrote: > My main worry, though, is basically how does David avoid supporting > Factions/Malphas (I use him because he seems the obvious rival, although > there are others of course). Novalis, for instance. Take the Northern Ireland situation (and > pardon me for treading the hot coils of that one), I'm the only Irish person reading this list that I know of, and I don't mind. I was thinking about it myself, actually. there are two > communities there who are each very strong - a credit to Stone, perhaps; > but what about the hatred and violence? As I see it there are two > possibilities: > > 1 - David and his Angels create the two communities, I'm going to quibble with that slightly. It looks very much like the communities were going to form anyway, though I certainly think he might have helped it along. Of course, the Plantation of Ulster might have been a plot of Malphas' (or Janus', for that matter). but Malphas comes > along and plays them against each other; the troubles are his fault if > you like. Possible. They might have happened anyway, but maybe they wouldn't have been as bad. If you take the line that, advertently or otherwise, Ian Paisley is working for Hell (IMO, he bears more responsibility for the conflict than any single other person), it even becomes plausible. This does not, of course, mean that Malphas isn't involved in the current peace process, which has certainly created its share of division. Malphas plays all sides, and it's hatred and fear that interest him, rather than body counts. (If you can find some of Conor Cruise O'Brien's articles about how the peace process is a conspiracy by the IRA to destabilise NI and cause massive genocide, forcing the Irish Army to step in, have a look.) If it isn't sufficiently obvious, I am a Catholic atheist and a relatively moderate nationalist. > 2 - The troubles are nothing to do with Hell, but are also the result of > David’s forces (something about being brutal as it says in the book). > Perhaps it’s about ‘survival of the fittest’ or about further > strengthening the two communities through the trials. Innocent deaths > further strengthen the communities, but also increase the enmity between > both sides > I prefer the idea that it's an unholy (not literally, you know what I mean) mess, and that this is the case with any organisation that David supports. Malphas will always try to infiltrate it, just as he will try to infiltrate any organisation which Novalis or Janus take an interest in. So is it > all a case of natural selection, fight for the right to see who’s the > strongest because in the coming days you will need to be that hard, that > tough and that strong. If you think life’s too tough now, then you > haven’t got a prayer. David makes us fight for all we have and all we > want - maybe so that we’ll appreciate it all the more. I'd say yes, in part. It's often easier to define a group by what it isn't than by what it is. Protestants unity (such as it is) is there because the members of various sects, collectively, are not Catholic. Nationalists, whether descended from Gaels, Vikings, Normans, Frisians, Welsh or English, collectively regard themselves as not being British. > But what about the souls lost in the process, is David that cavalier? > Does he say ‘hey if you don’t make the grade, then you don’t deserve > paradise!’ Do they all go to Hell, no time for losers. That would seem > dissonant, David sealing fates and fueling the fires like that. This, I think, is part of the reason for the "don't strike first" policy. If one group sets out to grab from another, this will probably lead them to their Fates. But if they stand together when someone tries to grab from them and defend themselves, then I don't see it in general. > Perhaps I’m missing something, but how does David avoid supporting > Factions, because that’s what groups do by definition. I am x therefore > I can’t be y; does Stone draw the line at I am x and I hate y - we are > the best. It seems the safest place to draw it. If he doesn’t draw the line, well then what about ol’ > Factions? He might as well retire in Stygia and watch the souls roll in. > or maybe it’s that darned human freewill thing. Men form groups and > communities, but decide all by themselves that their group is no.1. > what’s the difference? > Malphas will seek to split the group itself into sub-groups. Ever wondered why there are so many armed groups in the North? The British Army, RUC, IRA and UVF would seem sufficient, but there are a lot of others. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:37:05 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Q On Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 12:17:37PM +0100, Hart, Joanna wrote: > Does a cherub automatically deattune when its vessel is killed, or is it > possible for an angel to continue to get dissonant (and possibly even fall) > whilst in trauma, if something happens to its attunement when it isn't there > to protect them? > I have a better one. Can Windies Fall while in Trauma? Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #852 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.