From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Jul 13 18:58:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA16519 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:58:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id SAA26026 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:58:40 -0500 Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:58:40 -0500 Message-Id: <199807132358.SAA26026@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #854 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, July 13 1998 Volume 01 : Number 854 In this digest: IN> Ineffible plans Re: IN> Q Re: IN> Riddler question Re: IN> Q Re: IN> A little Knowledge... Moroni (was Re IN> A little Knowledge...) Re: IN> Ineffible plans Re: IN> The Pleasure Principle Re: IN> A little Knowledge... IN> Re: IN- Princes and Renegades IN> Nutty little angels? IN> Dissonance/Falling in Trauma (Re: Q) Re: IN> Getting there(more from the Riddler) Re: IN> Angels and Governments Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #851 Re: IN> Getting there(more from the Riddler) Re: IN> Nutty little angels? IN> Re: IN- Nutty little angels? Re: IN> Princes and Renegades IN> Re: IN- Getting there(more from the Riddler) IN> Re: IN- Dissonance/Falling in Trauma (Re: Q) IN> Mormon cosmology (was: Moroni) IN> Re: IN- Princes and Renegades RE: IN> tarot IN> Re: IN- Getting there(more from the Riddler) IN> Re: IN- Angels and Governments IN> Re: IN- Angels and Governments IN> Re: IN- Re: RE: nasty ... Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #851 Re: IN> Re: IN- Dissonance/Falling in Trauma (Re: Q) Re: IN> Re: IN- Princes and Renegades ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 14:16 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: IN> Ineffible plans >>This assumes that there is not an ineffible plan. In the presence of an >>ineffible plan, where is there free will? I take this into considerations >>whe I think that this is a game where they recommend that you read "Good >>Omens" (a book that hinges highly on the ineffible plan tangent.) > Oh, I quote it often. But, still, can we actually speak of an "ineffible >plan" in In Nomine? You can. God, in the form of canon, won't say one way or the other.... One thought on this that I've been using in my game is a sort of quantum mechanical balance between free will and predestination. It's not so much that they're opposites, and one is true, but that both are possible, in an inverse relationship to each other. It boils down to roughly, "You can know the future, or you can change it, but not both." It may be that God *can* know the future, but doesn't, because he wants the outcome to be controlled by the events within the Symphony. (This fits into the "God as experimentalist" model of IN.) This also explains why Yves is so non-interventionist -- he may know too much to change things himself. Not telling others what will be, leaves them free to act, and possibly change the future. Kronos may have similar restrictions, or he may not really know the future. > And who, >exactly, knows the details of this plan? God, presumably. Yves and Kronos, maybe, at least in parts. > Plus, gamewise, accepting the >idea of the One and Only Plan will take all the fun out of playing demons; >after all, they're going to lose and spend all the rest of their existance >in Hell. That assumes that God's plan actually includes the triumph of Heaven. While IN angels geneally believe this (and maybe some demons), it's an article of faith, not fact. The problem is, does God always tell the truth? Especially if the Plan won't work if He does...? In my own campaign (sort of), I've thrown a bit of a monkey wrench into the works. (Look through the archives for the "Third avatar" plot seed from a few weeks ago.) Basically, the Symphony now has *three* possible outcomes, and it's not clear now which one is intended. > Well, since there *are* soldiers of hell, I guess some people don't want >to go to heaven when they die. Or, at least, believe in their ability to >convince their masters to make the afterlife less horrible. A lot of them are deluded into thinking that they'll join Hell's elite - -- there's no reason for demons to tell humans the truth about Hell, after all.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 14:23 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Q >I have a better one. Can Windies Fall while in Trauma? I would say no. It's not like the Cherub problem, where being attuned to too many things is a choice they make, that puts them at risk. A Windy in Trauma isn't making a conscious choice contrary to his Word -- it's just something that happens. Bet they go really hyper after being still so long, though.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 14:29 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Riddler question >Just a procedural question, but could a Kyrio of Dreams move into the Marchs >and take a host there? I would think so. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 14:21 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Q >Does a cherub automatically deattune when its vessel is killed, or is it >possible for an angel to continue to get dissonant (and possibly even fall) >whilst in trauma, if something happens to its attunement when it isn't there >to protect them? I would say it's still at risk -- being a Cherub is *not* an easy job. Cherubim need to be careful about attuning to too many things at once. I would doubt that it could actually Fall while still in Trauma, though. Might happen right afterward, or maybe the dissonance automatically "bleeds" into Discord while in Trauma. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:41:58 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> A little Knowledge... On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: > I have a difficulty that I'd like some help with. I have a player who has > recently become a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints > (LDS or Mormons). Now he wants to play a servitor of Moroni. Well, being Mormon, *that* certainly caught my attention. :) > So here's the question: What would Moroni's Choir and Superior be? Obviously, > his word is LDS (full form above...), but I need some help on this one. A better Word for Moroni would be something like Messengers. He could conceivably be the Patron of the Latter-Day Saints in In Nomine, but I don't think it would be a Word. > I've currently got as Choir options: Moroni should be a Saint, in In Nomine terms. He was a mortal prophet who died and is now an angel. If you don't like the idea of having Word-bound Saints, the best Choir for him would be Malakim. He was a general on the losing side of a religious war in his homelands before he became the final editor of Book of Mormon. But I'd make him a Saint. > As for Superiors: > Destiny > Stone > Protection > Dreams > Revelation I'd say Destiny, War, or Revelation. He was involved in all of those things, so any of them could work. Most likely Destiny or Revelation, though (or a Servitor of one on loan to the other). Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting. In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to capture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment, or a company entire than to destroy them. -Sun Tzu - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:53:20 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Moroni (was Re IN> A little Knowledge...) On Mon, 13 Jul 1998, Hart, Joanna wrote: > I'd make it an angel of fire. Gabriel may not be doing those 'revelation' > duties herself any more, but it is consistent that they'd still be covered > by her word. Ofanite might fit best, for the same reasons. Not a bad idea for who Moroni might serve, especially since he rather predates Islam (he died around AD 420). Gabriel wouldn't have left Heaven then and would probably still be performing the revelation duties. I still would make him a Saint, myself. > (Having said that, unless you are playing a very Christian based setting I'd > discourage the player because standard IN doesn't really match the theology > of his church and he might find that upsetting). Well, Mormon beliefs don't really match the setting of In Nomine or most Christian theology anyway. As long as he understands that In Nomine is not his beliefs, and he is cool with that, there shouldn't be a real problem. Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting. In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to capture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment, or a company entire than to destroy them. -Sun Tzu - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:49:37 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Ineffible plans Walter Milliken wrote: > One thought on this that I've been using in my game is a sort of > quantum mechanical balance between free will and predestination. > It's not so much that they're opposites, and one is true, but that > both are possible, in an inverse relationship to each other. It > boils down to roughly, "You can know the future, or you can change > it, but not both." This is similar to the principles we apply in the time-travel game I play in, where history cannot be altered. If you have been affected by some future event (for example, by knowing of it), then you can't prevent it; if you try, you will fail. Our characters tend to guard their ignorance of future events, as a result, to avoid feeling so fated. In the theological domain, there is a fairly widely recognized difference between the idea of divine foreknowledge -- where God knows the future -- and divine predestination -- where God stipulates in detail exactly what that future will be. The first is much easier to reconcile with free will than the second. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:02:16 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> The Pleasure Principle Thanks, Jo -- that was /amazingly/ funny. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:38:47 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> A little Knowledge... In a message dated 7/13/98 11:47:08 AM, gantr@NKU.EDU writes: > > >On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: > >> I have a difficulty that I'd like some help with. I have a player who >has >> recently become a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day >Saints >> (LDS or Mormons). Now he wants to play a servitor of Moroni. > >Well, being Mormon, *that* certainly caught my attention. :) > >> So here's the question: What would Moroni's Choir and Superior be? Obviously, >> his word is LDS (full form above...), but I need some help on this one. > >A better Word for Moroni would be something like Messengers. He could >conceivably be the Patron of the Latter-Day Saints in In Nomine, but I >don't think it would be a Word. > >> I've currently got as Choir options: > >Moroni should be a Saint, in In Nomine terms. He was a mortal prophet >who >died and is now an angel. If you don't like the idea of having Word-bound >Saints, the best Choir for him would be Malakim. He was a general on the >losing side of a religious war in his homelands before he became the final >editor of Book of Mormon. But I'd make him a Saint. > >> As for Superiors: >> Destiny >> Stone >> Protection >> Dreams >> Revelation > >I'd say Destiny, War, or Revelation. He was involved in all of those >things, so any of them could work. Most likely Destiny or Revelation, >though (or a Servitor of one on loan to the other). > >Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant Hmmm... OK. So Moroni would be a Saint of Destiny on loan to Revelation? I like this. But my player may be ticked. (I don't think Saints can have Angelic Servitors...) The other option of a Servitor of Fire (from before Gabby's madness...) is a good one, too. (Perhaps on loan to Destiny until she recovers.) Mark (Thanks for the Ideas!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:07:14 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Princes and Renegades >From: David Edelstein >Yes, all of the above does suggest that of all the Princes to be caught by, >if one should happen to be a Renegade from said Prince's service, Beleth >probably ranks as one of the worst. > >However, that doesn't necessarily make it _harder_ to go Renegade from her >service. It just makes the possible consequences more dire. She's attuned >to your Heart, sure, but when you break your Heart, you break the >attunement. This thought has been stewing in my brain for a while, and I just can't get rid of it... Can Djinn (as a Band, or perhaps just a subgroup like Fallen Cherubim) use any of the Cherubim advanced Resonance abilities? Things like learning more about what/who you're attuned to, finding out who else is paying attention (oreven attuned!) to it, etc. The IPG doesn't say they can, but some of those abilities would be really useful to a Djinn. Perhaps actual Fallen Cherubim could remember how to do it, or relearned how with a Will-based resonance. I ask this for the obvious practical side of the issue, but also for this hideously dark thought: If Beleth is attuned to all her servitor's Hearts, and one tried to go Renegade and break his own heart, could Beleth use the Nemesis ability, and transfer the attunement from the heart to the demon that destroyed it, WITHOUT the rule against harming him? Of course, if she could, she might just play along with the usual restriction against killing an attument anyway, just to make the more interesting. (I personallyam convinced that Beleth's celestial form is a cat.) In the immortal words of Bart Simpson: "Eep." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 16:14:58 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Nutty little angels? MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: > The other option of a Servitor of Fire (from before Gabby's > madness...) is a good one, too. Hm. Something just occurred to me. Is Gabriel still creating new angels? What kind of angels does a nuts Archangel create? Like mother, like child? While we're at it, do new servitors of Eli still show up from time to time? I mean, *Eli* wouldn't stop *creating*, would he? (Mental picture of a Reliever left in a basket on a doorstep. Note: "Please take good care of little Whackiel. E.") Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:53:09 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Dissonance/Falling in Trauma (Re: Q) At 12:17 PM +0100 7/13/98, Hart, Joanna wrote: >Does a cherub automatically deattune when its vessel is killed, or is it >possible for an angel to continue to get dissonant (and possibly even fall) >whilst in trauma, if something happens to its attunement when it isn't there >to protect them? Hm. GM option. I think I'd say that they *don't* detune, and *can* rack up dissonance -- but only for the destruction/death of their attuned. I wouldn't make the roll for more dissonance/Outcasting or whatever until they'd woken up, though. At 12:37 PM +0100 7/13/98, Kevin Walsh wrote: >I have a better one. Can Windies Fall while in Trauma? I'd say that Windies are immune to dissonance while in Heaven. They *like* hanging around all over the place, but they can stay in the canopy of the Groves indefinitely, surrounded by the breezes (or gales, higher up). Likewise, demons in Trauma (Kobalites, Malphans) don't suffer dissonance from their conditions -- and may have lesser requirements while in Hell *anyway*. Or not. Kobal insists on Funny, just as Malphas insists on division. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:06:03 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Getting there(more from the Riddler) At 8:34 AM -0700 7/13/98, Adam Gastonguay wrote: >The game's almost ready...Just a few more questions on how to do this: > >1. Because Kyriotates can extend their comsciousness to a number of >different dream scapes, do they need the Dream Walking attunement? To enter the 'scapes, probably, yes. >2. Blandine's Servitors Hearts are in her tower(I think). So does >that mean that when any of her angels return to their Heart, the go >Ethereal rather than Celestial? It's not entirely clear whether the inside of the Tower is ethereal or celestial. The GM gets to pick. If he picks that the Hearts are kept in the ethereal parts of the Tower, then yes. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:37:36 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Governments >>This assumes that there is not an ineffible plan. In the presence of an >>ineffible plan, where is there free will? I take this into considerations >>whe I think that this is a game where they recommend that you read "Good >>Omens" (a book that hinges highly on the ineffible plan tangent.) > Oh, I quote it often. But, still, can we actually speak of an "ineffible >plan" in In Nomine? That takes all the punch out of the war. And who, >exactly, knows the details of this plan? Plus, gamewise, accepting the >idea of the One and Only Plan will take all the fun out of playing demons; >after all, they're going to lose and spend all the rest of their existance >in Hell. Actually, the way that I usually play tends toward the Ineffible Plan. However, I roll a die at character creation, and then determine if anyone in the group truly has free will. I like loose cannons in densely constructed systems. I also like it when one players actions have a stronger effect on the rest of the world. Also, if there is an Ineffible Plan, then what is it? I don't think that players should know if there really is a plan, but it does help when dealing with Servitors of Fate/Destiny. >>My thoughts on this are that Vengeance can get out of hand. Dommie's boys >>tend to mete out the exact value of punishment for the crime. Also, and I >>think that people forget this side of Dommie, his Servitors defend the >>innocent. Gabriel avenges the wrong doing. Again, she might get going >>after the wrong person. Just my thoughts, > I don't know. In tho short campaign I GMed, hurting an innocent was >dissonant for angels, even angels of Gabriel. Whenever I think of Vengeance, I think of Ghost Rider. Especially two episodes in Spiderman #'s 5 & 6. The Hobgoblin believes that he is the one-true way, and takes a werehouse full of people hostage in order to "save" them. Ghost Rider comes blazing into the warehouse in full "Spirit of Vengeance" mode. Spiderman arrives on his heels (thinking that Ghost Rider is trouble) A fight between Hobgoblin and Ghost Rider ensues. A little boy that wants to follow the Hobgoblin is nearly killed in the fight. (Saved by Spiderman) Ghost Rider is unrepentant, and rides off. I tend to think that this sets up my view of Vengeance. The focus of Vengeance is to make the criminal pay. Justice protects the innocent. Armand ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:37:36 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #851 >After my last post; I sat down and thought about Stone. > >My main worry, though, is basically how does David avoid supporting >Factions/Malphas (I use him because he seems the obvious rival, although >there are others of course). Take the Northern Ireland situation (and >pardon me for treading the hot coils of that one), there are two >communities there who are each very strong - a credit to Stone, perhaps; >but what about the hatred and violence? As I see it there are two >possibilities: I think that there is a word or two differing in David's stance and Malphas'. It's the idea of hate. David's groups fight to become stronger. Not to put down one and other (although I;m pretty sure that Malphas is more than happy to fuel any resentments that form). Malphas, however, isn't about strength. He is about making petty conflicts grow into wars so that the more important things get missed. I can't really think of a way to phrase what I think the real difference is, but I know that it is there. If pushed, then my answer would come thus: ARMAND: "David. Malphas. Where do you stand on your activities in the Star Wars trilogy?" DAVID: "Well, the new Republic was growing stagnant, and so I thought to form an intergalactic empire. I think that they misjudged the strength of diversity, and thus were unprepared for my next group, the rebellion. I hope that they learn not to become stagnant or too exclusionary. The new empire might be a little tougher." MALPHAS: "Do you know how many sentients died during this conflict? Let's just say that I was more than happy to see a few of them go. For instance, there was an assasin lying in wait on the Death Star, waiting for the Emperor to do an inspection tour. His death ment the war continued longer than it might have. More people died. I misjudged the strength of the Empire though. My agents were working on the petty struggles of the Empire's leaders; making them argue amongst themselves. I was pretty shocked to see how quickly the Rebellion defeated the Empire. Well, that's okay. With all those races with natural hostility toward each other, I should suspend a great many legal and diplomatic actions. I think that my fellow demon princes will owe me a favor or two." I would surmise that Malphas is more about the conflict than the groups, where David kind of wants to see all his groups out there succeed. Armand ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 16:29:31 EDT From: SienarFLT@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Getting there(more from the Riddler) In a message dated 98-07-13 11:40:59 EDT, you write: > 1. Because Kyriotates can extend their comsciousness to a number of > different dream scapes, do they need the Dream Walking attunement? They may be able to extend into a different number of dreamscapes but they still need to *get* there to do it, so I would say yes, they do need the attunement. I had a similar question come up in my game about the various forms of the song of Dreams. One player had taken (I think it was) the Celestial Song of Dreams, but could never use it due to the fact that they hadn't had the Corporeal song to get to the Marches in the first place. > 2. Blandine's Servitors Hearts are in her tower(I think). So does > that mean that when any of her angels return to their Heart, the go > Ethereal rather than Celestial? Hmmm. Blandine's tower is on the border between the Marches and Heaven, and from the tower each can be seen on one or the other side, but technically I think the angel would still be ethereal ... "Climbing the stairs, he'll find himself on a balcony atop the tower, the highest point on the angels' side of the Marches." (p. 138 of main rulebook). There must be some kind of hazy transition point where a celestial *turns celestial* once stepping out the tower onto Heaven's side (if such a thing can even be done, I don't have the book "the Marches" in front of me right at the moment). > 3. Could the person(I forget who) who was printing up tarot Destinys > and Fates continue? I was probably use it for Malakim noble/ignoble > acts. I certainly second the motion. I loved the first installment of that! but I'm not sure who sent it out now... > 4. About combat....I have seen more than enough changes to the combat > system presented in the book, and since I have yet to play, I cannot > know which one will work best. Does anyone know of a system that > works best for them. I'm looking for plenty of realism, speed doesn't > matter as much since the whole game will be slow due to it being my > first time. Combat is not a real big issue with my group. Sure there are flaws with it in this game, but I've never played an RPG where everyone was happy with the combat system. Hey, the one presented in the book works for us. But then again, in the first three sessions we played, there was only ONE combat. I prefer a more story-like approach to my games and go combat-lite instead, so it makes sense that combat isn't a real issue with me :-) -- Thom. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 16:51 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Nutty little angels? >Hm. Something just occurred to me. Is Gabriel still creating >new angels? What kind of angels does a nuts Archangel create? >Like mother, like child? Only if she creates them out of her own Forces, I think, though they may be a bit strange. But then, all Fire Servitors are a bit strange, it seems.... >While we're at it, do new servitors of Eli still show up from >time to time? I would think so. Possibly in the corporeal realm (might as well give them a vessel while he's at it). It's also not out of the question that Creationers have access to Songs that let them "breed" without Superior intervention -- that would fit nicely with their Word. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:51:51 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Nutty little angels? >>While we're at it, do new servitors of Eli still show up from >>time to time? > >I would think so. Possibly in the corporeal realm (might as well give >them a vessel while he's at it). It's also not out of the question that >Creationers have access to Songs that let them "breed" without Superior >intervention -- that would fit nicely with their Word. Even though Eli's abandoned his cathedral, that doesn't mean there aren't any of his servitors still in heaven. I would guess that when he makes new angels, he'd probably zip by a tether and toss them heavenward with a message to his buddies upstairs about what to do. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:15:07 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Princes and Renegades At 1:07 PM -0700 7/13/98, Daniel Maberry wrote: >This thought has been stewing in my brain for a while, and I just can't >get rid of it... > >Can Djinn (as a Band, or perhaps just a subgroup like Fallen Cherubim) >use any of the Cherubim advanced Resonance abilities? Just Say No... (IOW, *I* wouldn't allow it, I'd ixnay it in canon, but if your GM wants...) >I ask this for the obvious practical side of the issue, but also for >this hideously dark thought: If Beleth is attuned to all her servitor's >Hearts, and one tried to go Renegade and break his own heart, could >Beleth use the Nemesis ability, Nononononononnono. The Nemesis ability is directly related to the Cherubic "I Protect" nature. (Or, in that case, I Avenge.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:55:48 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Getting there(more from the Riddler) >Hmmm. Blandine's tower is on the border between the Marches and Heaven, and >from the tower each can be seen on one or the other side, but technically I >think the angel would still be ethereal ... "Climbing the stairs, he'll find >himself on a balcony atop the tower, the highest point on the angels' side of >the Marches." (p. 138 of main rulebook). There must be some kind of hazy >transition point where a celestial *turns celestial* once stepping out the >tower onto Heaven's side (if such a thing can even be done, I don't have the >book "the Marches" in front of me right at the moment). Blandine's tower, like Beleth's, is (as I understand it) a tether anchored to the Marches rather than Earth. The ethereal and celestial ends of the tether are identical, perhaps even indistinguishable. I suspect there's more of a planar overlap in the towers than anywhere else. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:59:57 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Dissonance/Falling in Trauma (Re: Q) >>I have a better one. Can Windies Fall while in Trauma? > >I'd say that Windies are immune to dissonance while in Heaven. >They *like* hanging around all over the place, but they can stay >in the canopy of the Groves indefinitely, surrounded by the >breezes (or gales, higher up). I wouldn't go that far; I can see Janus' boys flitting about Heaven as much as they do Earth. I'd treat his dissonance restriction like that of his Choir, that is, it's only dissonant if they are free to travel and don't. However, if they'vebeen imprisoned for three days, for example, time didn't stop for that purpose, they just have to get going ASAP. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:17:11 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Mormon cosmology (was: Moroni) Having been raised Mormon, I feel a need to contribute something to all this talk about Moroni in In Nomine. Yes, in IN terms, Moroni would be a Saint. However, in Mormon cosmology, so would EVERY celestial. Here's the skinny as I was taught in sunday school: God created Earth, and all the souls that he wanted to inhabit it. All the souls were individuals, but they were all the same type of spirit. Lucifer was one of these souls, and after the rebellion (the natureof which is an ENTIRELY different discussion), him and the third of the spirits who followed him were cast out. The remaining two thirds were to be born into physical bodies on earth and live a mortal life, as was the plan. Angels (the word, BTW, meaning messenger for thosethat don't already know) are mortal souls sent to earth WITHOUT a physical body, and are sent to convey a message or perform a certain task. Not being corporeal, they can remember the Heavenly Kingdom, and more importantly, their orders. The word "angel" doesn't describe a type of spirit, but a job. (BTW, Mormons really don't like to draw angels with wings; being human, they don't have them, and being immaterial, they don't NEED them.) The souls that rebelled with Lucifer became the demons, who work against God (or try to; they have a bad tendency to play into his hand.) They never had a material body, and never will; part of the reason they possess people is to see what they're missing. Now, for Moroni, he impressed God enough while a mortal that he was later used as an angel. In IN, he could be a seriously bad-ass Saint, or an actual angel who took a long-term role. Aternately (this is NOT to interpreted as a knock against the Mormon church! Really! Remember "game vs. reality"), perhaps Malphas invented Mormonism, with its THOROUGHLY unconventional views on divinity, the afterlife, and the nature of angels and demons, as a way to divide the Christian Community. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:23:40 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Princes and Renegades >>Oh yeah, he's good at that Sneaky Bastard (tm) schtick. Still... Just >>imagine the consequences if he finally catches up to you, tries to cut >>the attumenent so he can smite you-- and blows it. >> >>You'll probably wish he'd succeeded. > >*Teeeeechnically*, a Prince would never muff breaking an attunement >in this fashion. Even though Azzie would have an obscenely Uber Will score, meaning an auto success with disgusting plusses to the check digit, IT'S STILL A ROLL. And eventually, he's gonna roll Seraph-eyes. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:22:31 +0100 From: "Ellen Kakkaratchi" Subject: RE: IN> tarot > > 3. Could the person(I forget who) who was printing up tarot Destinys > > and Fates continue? I was probably use it for Malakim noble/ignoble > > acts. > > I certainly second the motion. I loved the first installment of > that! but > I'm not sure who sent it out now... Um, it was me. Just give me a few days and I'll be on it. I've had a sudden and very welcome influx of work and so I'm behind with my more leisurely interests. I haven't forgotten. I am, as always, Ellen (Lilim of Self-Indulgent Avoidance Tactics) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:27:57 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Getting there(more from the Riddler) >4. About combat....I have seen more than enough changes to the combat >system presented in the book, and since I have yet to play, I cannot >know which one will work best. Does anyone know of a system that >works best for them. I'm looking for plenty of realism, speed doesn't >matter as much since the whole game will be slow due to it being my >first time. Yikes...If it's your first time, for the love of God keep it simple. You'll be going slowly enough while learning the system from the GM perspective, don't make your job harder than it already is. Learn the basic sytsem first. After that, you can start tweaking. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:31:36 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Angels and Governments > If I understand it correctly, Dominic is only interested in those angels >assigned to earth, those who can actually fall or be corrupted. In that >case, an angel wanting to avoid the unfortunate scrutiny of Old Bugeyes >only has to find himself a cushy job in Heaven. I disagree. Dominic's just as busy in Heaven as he is on Earth. Being on Earth isn't a requirement for heresy or corruption, it just makes it easier. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:40:13 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Angels and Governments >I think that there is a difference between a military police force a >My thoughts on this are that Vengeance can get out of hand. Dommie's boys >tend to mete out the exact value of punishment for the crime. Also, and I >think that people forget this side of Dommie, his Servitors defend the >innocent. Gabriel avenges the wrong doing. Again, she might get going >after the wrong person. Just my thoughts, I don't think Gabriel is very likely at all to punish the wrong person. After all, her Choir attumenents lether servitors detect guilt. Their punishments are targeted based on what people know they've done themselves, not what others think they've done. Also, remember that Dominic's dissonance restriction is to never punish someone MORE harshly than they deserve. Think about that. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:54:30 PDT From: "Tom Swenson" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Re: RE: nasty ... > >>I cannot take seriously the thought of any of the AA's sitting around >in a bright victory setting and mourning because someone had to lose. > >Well, what about Novalis, er, again!. I'm sure Yves would shed a few >tears for the lost. That seems a very dispassionate view to take. Maybe >the more militant AA's would feel that way, but not all of them - it's >their nature. Not to say they wouldn't be glad it's all over, but would >they not spare a moment in silence for the Fallen and the lost (perhaps >lost forever) > Some intresting points, but I think you are all missing an important aspect: From the Devins prespective, at least, The AAs are fighting a war aginst their brothers and sisters, in some cases their lovers. In the case of a Bright victory, They might celebrate at first, but then they would indeed mourn their fallen foe. Remember that God's love is unconditional, He loves Lucifer, He wishes that he (Luie) would quit this silly posturing and come home, but He still loves him. I think that the AAs, once they got passed the 'we won' stage will realize what they just did. Remember: It's not their fault, their only actors. tom ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:02:12 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #851 > Take the Northern Ireland situation (and > > pardon me for treading the hot coils of that one), > > I'm the only Irish person reading this list that I know of, and I don't > mind. I was thinking about it myself, actually. Make that two Irish people (well, Irish descent), and I'm cool with the topic as well. - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia Life's a piece of shit, woo woo woo Open a vein and slit, woo woo woo TISM, "Bishop Handjob" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 20:00:02 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Dissonance/Falling in Trauma (Re: Q) At 2:59 PM -0700 7/13/98, Daniel Maberry wrote: >>>I have a better one. Can Windies Fall while in Trauma? >> >>I'd say that Windies are immune to dissonance while in Heaven. >>They *like* hanging around all over the place, but they can stay >>in the canopy of the Groves indefinitely, surrounded by the >>breezes (or gales, higher up). > >I wouldn't go that far; I can see Janus' boys flitting about Heaven as >much as they do Earth. I'd treat his dissonance restriction like that of >his Choir, that is, it's only dissonant if they are free to travel and >don't. However, if they'vebeen imprisoned for three days, for example, >time didn't stop for that purpose, they just have to get going ASAP. I'm sure they *like* to move around, but it's *HEAVEN*. It shouldn't be as easy to get dissonance there as on Earth. In the canopy of the Groves, they're in their Archangel's Cathedral. They are *surrounded* by their Word. (I tend to think of them as almost constantly in motion when in Heaven, if not running around other areas and swiping people's stuff. There are winds up there, and people to play tag with...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:58:35 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Princes and Renegades At 3:23 PM -0700 7/13/98, Daniel Maberry wrote: >>>Oh yeah, he's good at that Sneaky Bastard (tm) schtick. Still... Just >>>imagine the consequences if he finally catches up to you, tries to cut >>>the attumenent so he can smite you-- and blows it. >>>You'll probably wish he'd succeeded. >> >>*Teeeeechnically*, a Prince would never muff breaking an attunement >>in this fashion. > >Even though Azzie would have an obscenely Uber Will score, meaning an >auto success with disgusting plusses to the check digit, IT'S STILL A >ROLL. And eventually, he's gonna roll Seraph-eyes. Winking Seraph eyes, really... (If you have your Superiors roll, then it's a roll. If you don't, then...) But it's fun to think of it. Heh. (And might explain why he's not attuned to Every Single One Of His Servitors.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #854 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.