From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Jul 15 17:41:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13348 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 17:41:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id RAA08149 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 17:44:29 -0500 Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 17:44:29 -0500 Message-Id: <199807152244.RAA08149@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #859 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, July 15 1998 Volume 01 : Number 859 In this digest: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> Dissonance: Intentions or Consequences? Re: IN> Dissonance: Intentions or Consequences? Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light IN> Re: IN- Dissonance: Intentions or Consequences? IN> Re: IN- Dissonance: Intentions or Consequences? IN> Re: IN- Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- Angels and Governments IN> Re: IN- In Nomine Mix IN> Re: IN- Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> Re: IN- Dissonance: Intentions or Consequences? IN> Questions about Saints Re: IN> Re: IN- In Nomine Mix Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light IN> IN: the Temple Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:20:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light > > > If they did, I'm pretty sure it would have been mentioned in canon. > > > > I cannot share your view on the completeness of canon. > > I'm not trying to argue that everything important has been mentioned in > canon, but the conceptions of Christianity and Islam have been mentioned. > If the destruction(s) of the Temple truly were of monumental importance to > the Heavenly forces, I think it would have been mentioned somewhere, in > some form. You assume the writers have any conception what so ever of Judaism historically, religiously, or otherwise - and from what we've seen, I can pretty much say they do NOT. From conversations I've had, I've had to explain where the Temple IS, let alone it's importance as a centerpiece for a 4000 year old religion. We have had continuous conversations about the complete lack of anything Jewish in In Nomine - it's a known topic. I have consistently attributed it to ignorance. As for canon, we have an entire flamewar going on about the incorrectness and misrepresentation of Islam right now. And Islam is shown pretty badly in canon. It's so out of proportion, I've heard it actually called humorous. And you want to compare other religions? Assuming that a religion's importance is relevant in accordance to what has been published thus far in a handful of sourcebooks is not only nearsighted, it's really on the edge of being insulting. - - Em. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:34:27 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > Yves HAD to know that that was an important event. It HAD to > > concern any Archangel or Demon Prince who cares what and how > > humans think about the divine. > > But do they care? From what we've seen, whether someone believes in > God or not isn't very important, it's what you -do- that's important. > Yes, religion can be a tool that helps people do the right thing for > the right reason, but whether that religion is -true- or not seems > pretty irrelevant. The role of religion in "helping people do the right thing" is plenty of reason, all by itself, for Superiors to take a keen interest in major religious events. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 98 11:57 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Dissonance: Intentions or Consequences? > Technically speaking then, Mercurians have a sure-fire demon-detection >technique: hit a suspected demon and wait for the note of dissonance. Keep >bludgeoning if it doesn't sound, apply the Corporeal Song of Healing if it >does. Doesn't work on Shedim, though.... > Of course, as a GM, I would give them a note of dissonance anyway, as they >have clearly violated their natures by being willing to harm a potential >innocent in the hopes of uncovering a possible diabolical. Exactly what I'd do. > Which leads to an interesting question: is dissonance simply a matter of >consequences (with the possibility of servitors of Destiny or Fate to acquire >dissonance at any given moment as they unwittingly push a mortal toward one or >other through direct action) or consequence weighed against intention (such as >the above case)--as has been discussed in the Dominic/Gabriel thread? I'm >curious about how others handle this issue. Generally, I interpret it as a matter of doing the wrong thing knowingly. Though demons can get slapped with dissonance *later* by their boss if he doesn't like what they did, for any reason. For Destiny servitors, the text says "direct action" to push someone to their Fate. This implies to me that it was intentional, although the intent may not have been to push someone toward their fate. But if the angel should have known better, I would certainly slap them with dissonance. And if they were uncertain as to the consequences, well, they chose to take the risk.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:10:23 -0400 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> Dissonance: Intentions or Consequences? Matthew D. Gandy wrote: > Technically speaking then, Mercurians have a sure-fire demon-detection > technique: hit a suspected demon and wait for the note of dissonance. Keep > bludgeoning if it doesn't sound, apply the Corporeal Song of Healing if it > does. > Of course, as a GM, I would give them a note of dissonance anyway, as they > have clearly violated their natures by being willing to harm a potential > innocent in the hopes of uncovering a possible diabolical. > Which leads to an interesting question: is dissonance simply a matter of > consequences (with the possibility of servitors of Destiny or Fate to acquire > dissonance at any given moment as they unwittingly push a mortal toward one or > other through direct action) or consequence weighed against intention (such as > the above case)--as has been discussed in the Dominic/Gabriel thread? I'm > curious about how others handle this issue. IMO Dissonance is simply a matter of consequence, if what a servitor of Destiny does pushes someone toward their Fate they acquire Dissonance if it doesn't, they don't. Intention is irrelevant. One thing to note about Mercurians being "demon detectors," being a GM as well, I would tend to trust my players not to do this sort of thing because it is stupid (i.e. if you read of this happening in a story you would look up and say, "that was dumb.") If any of my players tried it anyway I would remind tham that Dissonance is painful for angels and ask if they were sure they wanted to do this. After the game I would sit down and have a serious chat with the player. It has to do with the mind set of Mercurians. For a Mercurian violence is an evil they must put up with but not be a part of, of course all bets are off when dealing with demons. Here's the thing, if you don't know you are dealing witha demon then by your own belief system what you are doing is just plain wrong, whether it turns out to be Dissonant or not. I choose not to force characters in my game to behave in certain ways simply because of the rules. I prefer that characters do the "right thing" based on higher codes. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:47:43 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Emily Dresner wrote: > You assume the writers have any conception what so ever of Judaism > historically, religiously, or otherwise - and from what we've seen, I can > pretty much say they do NOT. From conversations I've had, I've had to > explain where the Temple IS, let alone it's importance as a centerpiece > for a 4000 year old religion. We have had continuous conversations about > the complete lack of anything Jewish in In Nomine - it's a known topic. I > have consistently attributed it to ignorance. However, you do so maliciously. As I pointed out once, I don't think they know a whole lot about economics, either. Their main job is putting out game supplements, not producing history (or, in my case, economics) texts. They do this job rather well. To this point, I haven't seen that there is a crying NEED for anything related to Jewish history. IN is unabashedly non-orthodox in regards to any established religion, and hasn't been much concerned with history on any subject. I can't think of very many role-playing games with a modern setting that are. Usually just enough that the background for a specific adventure makes sense. In fact, most of the games that try to do more than that are usually a mess. White Wolf's World of Darkness products come to mind here. If you want a game that has a Jewish supplement, try Ars Magica. It's a fine game, and they recently put out Kabbalah, a source on Jewish magicians in Mythic Europe. It even looks, to my untrained eye, to be pretty accurate. But the simple fact is, any game system is always going to have more things uncovered than things it does have source material on, particularly one as wide ranging as IN. > As for canon, we have an entire flamewar going on about the incorrectness > and misrepresentation of Islam right now. And Islam is shown pretty badly > in canon. It's so out of proportion, I've heard it actually called > humorous. And you want to compare other religions? Yes, I'd like to do that before you wax quite so indignant. Take as a model Richard Gant. His religion (Mormonism, for those that didn't follow that thread) hasn't exactly been the focus of canon to this point, so he makes suggestions, gives information and is otherwise helpful when the subject arises. I can anticipate your objection that Judaism is a more important religion; in a historical sense, that's true. So what? And the ongoing discussion about Islam isn't about misrepresentation in IN canon, but rather in someone's posts. For the most part, the statements about Islam in IN are pretty much neutral. Yes, Dominic and Laurence dislike Islam and we get their points of view in their extended write-ups. But, on a number of subjects, I'm not sure I would use their views as a good approximation of what the writers of the game think. I suppose that this comes down to, "Let's wait and see what the write-up of Khalid is like before we make any categorical statements. > Assuming that a religion's importance is relevant in accordance to what > has been published thus far in a handful of sourcebooks is not only > nearsighted, it's really on the edge of being insulting. Then again, so is your insistence that Jewish history not only be shown, but interpreted in the same way that you do. The destruction of the Second Temple might be very important to the Archangels, and it might be trivial. There are any number of explanations either way, but as soon as someone says that maybe it isn't very important, you decide that they're ignorant. I have a suggestion for you that goes beyond the "do it however you want in your own campaign" idea. Why don't you try writing a supplement that would include the things you want to see? I can't say that I have any knowledge of how SJG would respond, but I have friends that have gotten things published by other game companies by doing pretty much that. Perhaps an article for Pyramid might be better. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:57:57 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > > > > > If they did, I'm pretty sure it would have been mentioned in canon. > > > > > > I cannot share your view on the completeness of canon. > > > > I'm not trying to argue that everything important has been mentioned in > > canon, but the conceptions of Christianity and Islam have been mentioned. > > If the destruction(s) of the Temple truly were of monumental importance to > > the Heavenly forces, I think it would have been mentioned somewhere, in > > some form. > > You assume the writers have any conception what so ever of Judaism > historically, religiously, or otherwise - and from what we've seen, I can > pretty much say they do NOT. From conversations I've had, I've had to > explain where the Temple IS, let alone it's importance as a centerpiece > for a 4000 year old religion. We have had continuous conversations about > the complete lack of anything Jewish in In Nomine - it's a known topic. I > have consistently attributed it to ignorance. I don't think I've made any such assumptions. What I'm saying is that in canon, as far as it has been published, the destruction of the Temple wasn't a big thing. Now, we can argue this in-world or out-world. In-world, there can be all kinds of reasons for this not having a great impact on the Heavenly Host. Out-world, I quite agree with you, but these are two different things. > As for canon, we have an entire flamewar going on about the incorrectness > and misrepresentation of Islam right now. And Islam is shown pretty badly > in canon. It's so out of proportion, I've heard it actually called > humorous. And you want to compare other religions? Just for the record, I haven't read all posts here, but I haven't seen a flamewar. I've seen a discussion. As far as I have seen, there hasn't been any name-calling or high tempers, but a very nice and polite discussion. > Assuming that a religion's importance is relevant in accordance to what > has been published thus far in a handful of sourcebooks is not only > nearsighted, it's really on the edge of being insulting. Because Judaism isn't important? Then what about the tribal religions of Africa, for example? Shouldn't they be even more insulted, since the whole game is based (loosely) on a Judeo-Christian-Islamic world-view? No matter how important Judaism is in the real world, it doesn't have to be important to the Angels in the Game. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:05:06 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > > > Yves HAD to know that that was an important event. It HAD to > > > concern any Archangel or Demon Prince who cares what and how > > > humans think about the divine. > > > > But do they care? From what we've seen, whether someone believes in > > God or not isn't very important, it's what you -do- that's important. > > Yes, religion can be a tool that helps people do the right thing for > > the right reason, but whether that religion is -true- or not seems > > pretty irrelevant. > > The role of religion in "helping people do the right thing" is > plenty of reason, all by itself, for Superiors to take a keen > interest in major religious events. That's true. Perhaps they found it important then, but it isn't seen as an important event nowadays? Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:12:56 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > > > Anyway... uh... *trying for that last-minute save* > > What if... uh... what if this is -basically- true... except those priests > > of the Temple were actually descendants of the Grigori? Perhaps the > > treasures under the Temple included a couple of really nifty artifacts, > > that would still be in the hands of the Freemasons... provided they were > > saved when the French king destroyed the Templars. Perhaps the Great > > Secret behind Freemasonry is their allegiance to Heaven in the War? > > Philip the Fair. > > And I've read that book! I own a copy of it, in fact! It's filled with > the most goofy garbage ever assembled between two pieces of thick > cardboard since... since the HIRAM KEY, their first book. I don't > honestly think any of it is true, but it is entertaining reading. I haven't read their first book, but I found this one... not quite plausible, but at least thought-provoking. The connection between the Templars and the Freemason is pretty classic, and the Jacques de Molay theory for the Shroud is at least as plausible as any others I have heard. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:33:35 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > That's true. Perhaps they found it important then, but it isn't seen > as an important event nowadays? That might be the case except so far as it continues to affect human behavior. So, for instance, an angel of Novalis working on the thankless tast of bringing peace to the Mid-East would be continually aware of the significance of the Temple Mount *now* to both Judaism and Islam, and might often reflect on how this stage was set by the destruction of the Temple. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:13:59 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light At 10:06 15/07/98 -0400, you wrote: > >I always imagined that the Messiah would come as the head of a >construction crew sitting in a bulldozer. "So, where do ya want this >thing?" But then I'm vaguely demented that way. > ** A large construction site, littered with lumps of stone and scaffolding. Some workmen in faded blue jeans (sagging at the back) are sitting around a crate drinking tea and playing cards. A Rabbi-in-Black approaches ** RABBI: Messiah, how comes the building work? MESSIAH (the bulkiest workman): Hmm? Sorry, can't talk work. I'm on my tea break. RABBI: I know that it is wrong to beg and that you will come in your own time, but I've been sent to try and get a timescale. There are people out there who think that you'll be finished by tomorrow. And they say this every day. MESSIAH: Tomorrow? ** All the workmen shake their heads and feign looking troubled ** MESSIAH: Nah. I mean, we can't keep working without any breaks. That's union rules, mate. RABBI: ** sighs ** As you say, Messiah. But you've been on your tea break for the LAST 2000 YEARS!! jo jhart@btinternet.com http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ "Buy old masters. They bring better prices than young mistresses." -- Beaverbrook (1879-1964) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:08:42 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Dissonance: Intentions or Consequences? >From: Andrew Frades >IMO Dissonance is simply a matter of consequence, if what a servitor of Destiny >does pushes someone toward their Fate they acquire Dissonance if it doesn't, they >don't. Intention is irrelevant. Intention is EVERYTHING. Think about Cherubim and the Nemesis ability in APG, and the hypothetical case of a Cherub attuning to a bottle and tricking a demon into breaking it. If Dissonance was just consequence, then they could do it almost safely; they get dissonance for the bottle being destroyed, but they can purge it by "avenging" the bottle by killing the demon responsible to whom they can now track with their resonance (this of course being the point). But they explicitly state that in addition to this, the Cherub get's ANOTHER note of dissonance because of his treatment of his attunement. Concrete examples aside (and I'm sure that nitpickers will find a logical fault in it anyway), the fact of the matter is that falling is a choice. Angels CHOOSE to do what it is that causes them dissonance. They also choose not to deal with it in time to prevent Falling. A Cherub can technically be "given" dissonance by demons hunting down his attunements, but attuning in the first place is their own choice. It is the Cherub's responsibility to attune himself only to those he can realistically protect, and if he tries his best and still fails, then that'll encourage him to make his best even better. As for Mercurians acting as demon-detectors, if a Mercurian in one of my games pulled this stunt, I'd give him a note of dissonance, and maybe a perception roll to tell if it was because an actual human was harmed hy his hand, or just because he THOUGHT an actual human was harmed by his hand. On the other hand, if a Mercurian resorted to violence against someone he truly believed to be human, but wasn't, and did so for a REAL reason like self-defense or what have you, I'd let him luck out and not get dissonance. I know it's logically contradictory; the dissonance in first case is for using his own dissonance restriction for a mere tactical advantage. That's the kind og thinking demon's are made of. >I choose not to force characters in my game to behave in certain ways simply >because of the rules. I prefer that characters do the "right thing" based on >higher codes. I agree, sort of. The thing is, each angel's nature is tied directly to a higher code, both for their Choir and Archangel. Dissonance is a result fo denying that code. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:14:41 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Dissonance: Intentions or Consequences? >From: Walter Milliken >For Destiny servitors, the text says "direct action" to push someone to >their Fate. This implies to me that it was intentional, although the >intent may not have been to push someone toward their fate. But if the >angel should have known better, I would certainly slap them with >dissonance. And if they were uncertain as to the consequences, well, >they chose to take the risk.... Yves' dissonance restriction doesn't mention whether it's deliberate, but Kronos' specifies that unintentionally leading someone to their destiny is not dissonant, although Kronos wioll NOT be chipper about it. Personally, I'd apply the same thing to Yves' dissonance, for two reasons. 1: Angelic dissonance is based on choice (although it can be argued that a servitor of Destiny makes the choice when he first meddles in a human's life, like the way a Cherub risks himself every time he attunes to someone). 2: I REALLy don't see Kronos being more forgiving than Yves. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:20:23 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light >From: Emily Dresner >> Minor tidbit: Uriel was "retired" in 745, First Crusade was about >> 1096-1099. The only successful one, too. The 14th century saw the >> scandalous disbandment of the Templars. The Crusades, at the time, were >> well past their high mark. > >This is one of those that I consider a blip on the radar of the In Nomine >Timeline, if you want to give this sort of thing over to Uriel. It does >work out without him, though. That's a thought... Did the various Malakim of Uriel who didn't go over to other archangles perhaps have something to do with the Crusades? Either instigating or taking advantage of them? Like maybe the mideast was an area they were unable to fully "purify" before Uriel got called on the carpet, and with Khalid in the way they needed some sort of cover operation... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:38:11 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- Angels and Governments >From: Jo Hart >This could >>be to allow for mercy, or it could be for something more sinister. The >word isn't >>necessarily Good Judgement. Well, originally it was. (I finally dead Dom's writeup in H+H last night.) He was Heaven's conscience. When someone did something worng without realizing it (circumstantially or morally), he'd point it out to them, and his opinion's were respected. No angel would want to do the wrong thing, so no punishment was needed. Lucifer changed all that; he actually succeeded in TEMPTING Dominic briefly, by offering him a post in charge of the punishment of the damned, but his Word showed him the error of that path. Sicne then, he's been fanatical about preventing further rebellion against God and Heaven. >There could be a hidden agenda from D which involvs systematically sparing >and fostering specific sinners on a political basis. Probably other angels >suspect them of this every time they see someone either being punished to >an extent they consider over-severe, or let off on what seems to them to be >a loophole. Only the Dominicans know for sure and they won't stoop to >defending themselves. This is exactly the kind of sneaky politicking for selfish desire that Dominic is so dead-set against, IMHO. >There are enough seraphim et al in heaven that if this went on regularly And Dominic's one of them, remember. >you'd think it would be known, but you could certainly rule that it was a >conspiracy to overthrow heaven. And he would. I actuall respect Dominic. He seems like a really nice guy who got a Word that helped him be a really nice guy, and after the Fall he was forced to reinterpret it into what is probably the single worst sh*t detail in Heaven. He used to be everybody's friend, and now he can't be anyone's. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:40:06 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Re: IN- In Nomine Mix >From: "Matthew D. Gandy" > Cherubim: U2, "Stay (Faraway, So Close!)" > Ofanim: Sheryl Crow, "Everyday is a Winding Road" > Elohim: The The, "Helpline Operator" > Kyriotates: Bjork, "Army of Me" Mercurians: REM, "Shiny Happy People" Sorry. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:45:48 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light >From: Jo Hart >RABBI: I know that it is wrong to beg and that you will come in your own >time, but I've been sent to try and get a timescale. There are people out >there who think that you'll be finished by tomorrow. And they say this >every day. >MESSIAH: Tomorrow? I saw "The Money Pit" last night, and all I can say is, "Two weeks." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:45:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Dissonance: Intentions or Consequences? Here's my take: Nail 'em to the wall. I slam my celestials full of dissonance for EITHER intention or consequence. If you try to kill someone, and then kill them, it's murder. If you DON'T try to kill them, but they die as a result of your actions (e.g. you burn down a church, and the fire spreads to a nearby homing killing an inhabitant before it's controlled) then you're guilty of manslaughter. If you try to kill someone, and they survive, it's attempted murder. All very different things. Guess what, any of the above gets you jail time. Intent? Consequence? If you do the wrong thing, either directly, or indirectly, you've done the wrong thing. In the case of Yves' boys, I'd slap 'em with dissonance if a person actually is pushed closer to their fate, regardless of what the angel intended. I'd also slap them down with it if they actively tried to turn them towards their fate, even if it doesn't work. (They do have free will after all.) Admittedly, I don't know why one would try the latter, but I'd nail 'em for it. Even with this hard line policy, I've only ever hit characters with dissonance twice. It doesn't come up. Maybe I'm lucky in that my players play the theories and character concepts, not the rules. -Jayson [SNIPPED UP THE YIN YANG] > >From: Andrew Frades > >IMO Dissonance is simply a matter of consequence, if what a servitor of > Destiny > >does pushes someone toward their Fate they acquire Dissonance if it > doesn't, they > >don't. Intention is irrelevant. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:11:02 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Questions about Saints I have a couple questions about Saints: 1: When do they regenerate Essence? At dawn like angels, or at noon like humans? 2: Does injuring a Saint cause a disturbance in the Symphony? 3: Is there a difference between Sainsts and Bodhisattvas? The terms are often used synonymously, but Night music also provided two definitions. According to p. 14 (The Bodhisattva), describes them as reincarnating repeatedly, each time regaining the memories of their past lives as they reach adulthood. But on p. 45 (The Saintly Character), they are the souls of dead humans returning to Earth like a celestial, with a vessel rather than a body, and a celestial form. Which one is accurate, or do both types exist? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:22:52 +0200 From: "Jens Alm" Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- In Nomine Mix >>From: "Matthew D. Gandy" >> Cherubim: U2, "Stay (Faraway, So Close!)" >> Ofanim: Sheryl Crow, "Everyday is a Winding Road" >> Elohim: The The, "Helpline Operator" >> Kyriotates: Bjork, "Army of Me" Impudites: "Rape Me" by Nirvana /Jens Alm med97jal@student2.lu.se ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:36:09 +0300 From: Yossi Gurvitz Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light >I really don't think they care much about -things-, such as temples, >unless they are Tethers, of course. They care about people, and the future >of the world. David probably wasn't all that happy, but otherwise I don't >think it was a big deal. All the people killed, OTOH... Considering that it was the only place where God was worshipped - well, aside from Roman catacombs full of Christian outlaws - I daresay it would have been noticed. Now, the massacre was also very great, yes, but those were common things at the time. Yours, Yossi ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:58:19 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: IN> IN: the Temple On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Yossi Gurvitz wrote: > > > > >I really don't think they care much about -things-, such as temples, > >unless they are Tethers, of course. They care about people, and the future > >of the world. David probably wasn't all that happy, but otherwise I don't > >think it was a big deal. All the people killed, OTOH... > Considering that it was the only place where God was worshipped - well, > aside from Roman catacombs full of Christian outlaws - I daresay it would > have been noticed. Now, the massacre was also very great, yes, but those > were common things at the time. So? It was probably a Tether, but otherwise I can't see why this would be a big deal. As far as I have seen, the God of IN doesn't care much about being worshipped. Why would it matter to Him whether a Temple where some people worshipped Someone Who was pretty similar to Him, but not really Him (since the God of IN isn't quite the God of Judaism) was destroyed? Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 00:59:45 +0300 From: Yossi Gurvitz Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light At 03:27 PM 7/15/98 , you wrote: >I find this highly amusing on many levels for various reasons, actually. >There's a certain part of me that is rather glad. ...and the historian in me is just shaking his head. >If I had to make a call, I would say that the Roman Centurian who burned >down the Temple of Solomon in 70AD was a normal human and not led by any Hey, that's the first post rhat actually considered human free will, or at least the first I saw... >Either way, the destruction of the Temple marked the end of Israel as a >nation until post-WWII. Of Judea. Israel was lost, oh, around 620 BC. Yours, Yossi ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 00:57:12 +0300 From: Yossi Gurvitz Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light At 03:15 PM 7/15/98 , you wrote: Hello, Emily. >You're not entirely correct. The group you are thinking of was named "The >Assassins" (the actual arabic escapes me at the moment, which is 8:00am), >and they were a fanatical Moslem sect who believed that they were the soul >protectors of the Holy Land. Mostly, they specialized in harrassing the >pilgrims. Saladin didn't think too highly of them, in fact. Think of >them as the terrorists of the middle ages. [This is more or less a >clarification.] I wasn't thinking of the Kh'ashashin, actually. I am not a very good student of Islam - I specialize in Western European religious folly - but I do distinctly recall that the official clause for the crusades was the fact that Catholic pilgrims were banned from entering the Holy Sepulchure (a Tether of Destiny?), and harassed on the way. I *think* that was the Seljuks; I could be wrong. But these were not the Kh'ashashin. >> Also, the Crusades were a mere excuse for a nobles and nobles-wanna-bes >> to kill, rape and pillage. Though Church doctrine says every crusader who >> died "for the cross" enters heaven as a saint, I do believe Michael to have >> different ideas on the subject. >Again, "sort of". Keep in mind that the nobility of the time saw Jesus >Christ as more of a Feudal Lord then as their savior. They took "Lord and >Savior" very literally, and thought that maiming and killing in the name >of Christ was exactly what He wanted. True enough. Still, most of those who left were the landless and the outlaws. They wanted a fresh start. Most great lords didn't join, and the most violent element of medieval society went to pester someone else. >The Papacy, which was attempting to reform a new power base, attempted to >segue all this loose power, aggression and energy into one particular >channel, and that was a crusade to the Holy Land to free the Holy City. Agreed. The Papacy was on the rise. >The idea was that this would reaffirm belief in the church, bring about a >more holy knight, and strengthen the faith in the Roman Catholic church, >which had been doing fair to middling previously. Everyone who went on >the Crusade was a knight in the eyes of God, so to speak. ...and everyone who died became a saint. What a lousy company. >And so they got a little out of hand. The crusaders didn't just start >killing after Constantinople, they practiced on some of the locals; the >first major massacre of Jews in Europe occured as the over zealous Franks >burned and butchered them along the Reine. The "Shum" communities, as they were known by the Jews. This would seem to indicate the crusades were corrupted by demons... Yours, Yossi ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 01:12:13 +0300 From: Yossi Gurvitz Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light At 03:58 PM 7/15/98 , you wrote: Hello, Anders. >I was thinking about the actual Temple. Why should they care? Because the >Jews thought it the house of God? Then the destruction of -every- "holy" >place should be just as bad. From what I've understood, Superiors don't >care much about human religion, apart from Laurence and Dominic. And why >would the Jews have a special position? Because they consider themselves >God's chosen people? Many peoples think they have a special relationship >with a higher being. Well, that depends on what sort of holy history you have. I tend to take scripture at face value - you need some background. The way I see it, the only bit of "holy history" in the books is the fact of the Rebellion, and that is, frankly, not enough to build on. So, yes, I accept (for game purposes) that the Jews were chosen, because all other nations were guilty of idol-worshipping. Remember: the symphony assumes there is *one* God, superior to all. Thus, all idol-worshippers are wrong (and quite possibly Satanic, what with all those human sacrifices - - which were actually much more common than commonly assumed). Thus, the Jews were right, and the Bible is a holy book, if a bit corrupted by the passage of time (and I would cut off my arm for a copy of Yves' Bible!). It's trickier when we come to the New Testament. Basically, I choose an adaptation of Stefan Heim's version: Jesus *was* the Son of God, but he wasn't the Messiah, and he was crucified as a false messiah (reading Heim's excellent book, "Ahasver", is extremely recommended). Then there the bits no one understands - the Book of Revelations, for starters. >I'm -not- trying to put the Jews down here - I don't think they're any >better or worse than any other people. IMO, that's pretty much what the >AA:s think to - they see individuals, not peoples. True, but faith in One God is still essential for salvation, at least the way I see it, though we could use Dante's version of Limbo (where the souls of all the excellent men who lived before Christ exist. It's officially a part of Hell, but those who reach it live rather pleasently, deprived only of the visage of God). >Well, the Messiah hasn't been given much room in IN in any case. The Bible >is not canon in the IN universe. True enough, but if we are looking for serious gaming, the cosmology has to make sense. So far, SJG hasn't put out much material about it - at least, not what I've seen - so we have to make do with what we make up. Yours, Yossi ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 01:14:35 +0300 From: Yossi Gurvitz Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light No. What people would do is scream Armageddon. Some of them did. Plenty of researchers put the date of the Apocalypse as "something post-70 AD". All those allusions to "great Babylon, drunk on the blood of the saints". Yours, Yossi ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 01:24:07 +0300 From: Yossi Gurvitz Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Hello, Anders. >I'm not trying to argue that everything important has been mentioned in >canon, but the conceptions of Christianity and Islam have been mentioned. Both were mentioned, IIRC, as the source of tensions in Heaven (the exile of Gabriel), not as events per-se. Yours, Yossi ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #859 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. 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