From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jul 16 17:33:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA27106 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 17:33:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id RAA01793 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 17:36:05 -0500 Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 17:36:05 -0500 Message-Id: <199807162236.RAA01793@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #862 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, July 16 1998 Volume 01 : Number 862 In this digest: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> IN: the Temple Re: IN> IN: the Temple Re: IN> IN: the Temple Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> Acting Dissonant -- Why celestials don't Re: IN> IN: the Temple Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> IN: the Temple Re: IN> Roles Re: IN> Falling from the fallen Re: IN> Servitors of Dominic who go too far IN> Tethers (Re: The Western Wall) Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light IN> Dominic and insane Triads ... IN> Re: IN- Tethers (Re: The Western Wall) Re: IN> IN: the Temple IN> Salvation and Damnation IN> Monotheism and idol worship Re: IN> In Nomine as LARP IN> Re: IN- Falling from the fallen Re: IN> Falling from the fallen Tether Sourcebook (Re: IN> Tethers) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 09:24:04 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light >Demonic, very likely; by the Christian church, no. The >conquistadors were usually opposed by the missionaries, who >wanted to *convert* the natives, not loot and kill them. >There was one bishop who is somewhat infamous for burning a lot >of Inca or Maya (I forget which) books, but (1) this is not the >same as burning the people and, (2) even that earned him an >official reprimand from the Church hierarchy. > >Earl But then what about the poor guys who decided to convert? Often times, one of their feet were cut off so that running away would not be an option. They were then made into servants. Armand ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:28:55 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> IN: the Temple Emily Dresner wrote: > Actually, not at all. This is good old fashioned history and the > willingness to open a book. The Destruction of the Temple occured in 70 > AD, which is long after the first versions of the Septuagint (later called > The Old Testament) were being circulated in Greek and Latin throughout > the Roman Empire. The last book was written (Malachi) long before the > Birth of Christ. The first books of the New Testament were already being > circulated as well among the early disciples. [Fact - the Coptic Church > was established in 80 AD using the first versions of the NT as a basis.] > _Building_ it the first time is in 1 Kings, that's Biblical, that's King > Solomon. But the Diaspora and the ending of Judaea is not. There is > nothing Biblical going on here at all. *Arrgghhh* [Sounds of me repeatedly smashing my head against my desk] Earl was drawing references from the Old Testament, including the Commandments, in his argument. There most definitely WAS something Biblical going on here. And PLEASE stop telling us to open a book; WE KNOW THAT THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE WAS AN IMPORTANT HISTORICAL EVENT. Get over this part of your statement; quit ignoring what we are actually saying and implying that we are simply ignorant. Try actually reading what we write. > This is much like saying, "The Holocaust happened, and it had a profound > effect on Jewish thought and outlook on God. But because it happened in a > place, the Superiors don't care." Were there massacres? Yes. Did people > think the end was coming? Yes. Is it a physical, historical act which > had a profound effect on a certain branch of religious thought? Yes. As > a matter of fact, it's MORE profound, because as Earl pointed out, it was > one of the catalysts that got Christianity off to a good start, and if > that doesn't effect the In Nomine universe, I'm not entire sure what does. It may very well have had profound effects in the IN universe, though from what I remember of Laurence's and Dominic's write-ups, it could also be inferred that their preference for the Catholic Church came about well later, once it had established itself as a strong force for organization. IN is very vague on exactly what it is about the religion that attracts these AAs. While it certainly affected events over time, the destruction of the Temple may not have seemed important as it happened. > Straight world history. Nothing more, nothing less. Which may or may not have anything to do with IN history. > It is _extremely_ possible that canon doesn't say it's important yet > because sourcebooks focusing on that time period haven't been written yet > and THAT is the reason, not because Superiors didn't CARE. And it's possible that it doesn't. You seem to wander to this position as a rhetorical cover when you have been arguing that the Destruction of the Temple obviously MUST be important, not that it might be important. Without the flourish of "_extremely_", this last paragraph does an admirable job of sumarizing what Anders and I have been saying all along. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 18:25:29 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> IN: the Temple On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > > > You have used extra-canonical sources, primarily the Old Testament and > > your own beliefs (I think), to figure out how important the destruction of > > the Temple might be to the Superiors. I have said that canon doesn't say > > it was important, and tried to find reasons for that. > > Actually, not at all. This is good old fashioned history and the > willingness to open a book. The Destruction of the Temple occured in 70 > AD, which is long after the first versions of the Septuagint (later called > The Old Testament) were being circulated in Greek and Latin throughout > the Roman Empire. The last book was written (Malachi) long before the > Birth of Christ. The first books of the New Testament were already being > circulated as well among the early disciples. [Fact - the Coptic Church > was established in 80 AD using the first versions of the NT as a basis.] > _Building_ it the first time is in 1 Kings, that's Biblical, that's King > Solomon. But the Diaspora and the ending of Judaea is not. There is > nothing Biblical going on here at all. But parts of the Bible has been cited as reasons for why the Archangels would find the destruction of the Temple important. That's what I meant. > This is much like saying, "The Holocaust happened, and it had a profound > effect on Jewish thought and outlook on God. But because it happened in a > place, the Superiors don't care." Were there massacres? Yes. Did people > think the end was coming? Yes. Is it a physical, historical act which > had a profound effect on a certain branch of religious thought? Yes. As > a matter of fact, it's MORE profound, because as Earl pointed out, it was > one of the catalysts that got Christianity off to a good start, and if > that doesn't effect the In Nomine universe, I'm not entire sure what does. Two things: The Fall, and the Purity Crusade. Far more important than the birth of Christianity. Laurence is pushing Catholicism pretty hard, but IMO he sees it as a - -tool-, not an end to itself. If Christianity hadn't been around, he would have used something else. Personally I'm not denying the importance of the Temple and its destruction. I'm just trying to argue that the Archangels might not think that it's as important as we find it. One reason is that most of them just don't care much about religion. It's -actions- that are important, not - -beliefs-. IMO, this is a good attitude, which is not to say that I think all the AA:s are doing the right thing. > Straight world history. Nothing more, nothing less. Once again - because something is important to -us- it doesn't have to be important to the Superiors, or even to God. > It is _extremely_ possible that canon doesn't say it's important yet > because sourcebooks focusing on that time period haven't been written yet > and THAT is the reason, not because Superiors didn't CARE. Quite possible. But, as I have said several times now, I'm arguing from existing canon. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 17:55:16 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> IN: the Temple At 11:21 16/07/98 -0400, you wrote: > >It is _extremely_ possible that canon doesn't say it's important yet >because sourcebooks focusing on that time period haven't been written yet >and THAT is the reason, not because Superiors didn't CARE. > Now I'm not fascinated by _every_ period of histoty but I can't help feeling that an IN source covering the Nicean council period, or at least a few good (web or written) references and some plot hooks, might be quite fun. Maybe not for entire campaigns, but the odd one-off or 'flashback' scenario (OK guys, in the present day your characters are old hands at this earth business but back in the early 300s, you were involved in trying to settle a _minor_ _little_ dispute...). I was reading a book about Byzantium in the period of Theodora and it sounded rather wild. jo jhart@btinternet.com http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ "Buy old masters. They bring better prices than young mistresses." -- Beaverbrook (1879-1964) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:12:17 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Armand wrote: > But then what about the poor guys who decided to convert? Often > times, one of their feet were cut off so that running away would > not be an option. They were then made into servants. "Slaves" is probably the word you were looking for. That, too, was objected to by the missionaries, I have heard. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:23:23 -0400 From: "Matthew D. Gandy" Subject: Re: IN> Acting Dissonant -- Why celestials don't My own thanks to David--I agree with the others that that was one of the most insightful and useful analogies I've seen in a while, and makes explaining dissonance that much easier. I would like to note that I did not bring up the "Mercurian Demon Test" because *I* use it or *my players* use it. I brought it up because I know there are rules-lawyers out there (they're one of my biggest gaming pet-peeves), and I am considering becoming a MIB and running a good bit of In Nomine games and demos at cons and local shops. So consider these questions preventive medicine--I'm trying to find the occasional loophole, and work out the rational in-game explanation for why it doesn't work like the system would technically let you. In particular, I am working on an introductory game for a con or shop demo, to bring players into the In Nomine universe and give them a grounding in both the system and the background. Hence, I would love any insight along the lines of David's analogy regarding dissonance, as I intend to try and explain as simply as possible (and analogy are great for this) both *how* IN works ("If your Seraph lies, he gains dissonance") and *why* ("Seraphs are celestial pinnacles of Truth, and speaking anything other than the Truth gives them terrible pain, like wincing at a deliberately wrong or bad note in music"). For example, following the extended metaphor of the Symphony, most of my analogies are musical or sonic ("If you change your frequency to match his, you can attune yourself to his location and wellbeing--make a Resonance roll"). So if anyone has a great way of explaining any game mechanic in game-world terms, I'd love to hear it--particularly Songs and disturbances in the Symphony (without resorting to the Star Wars cliche--"You feel a great disturbance in the Force, er, *Symphony*"). - --Matthew D. "Demiurge" Gandy "still looking for the face I had before the world was made" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:29:29 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> IN: the Temple Jo Hart wrote: > Now I'm not fascinated by _every_ period of histoty but I can't help > feeling that an IN source covering the Nicean council period, or at > least a few good (web or written) references and some plot hooks, > might be quite fun. Whoo, boy! Yes, lots of fun, especially if you want to push hard on Canon Doubt and Uncertainty. Such a period piece would either have to tear away large amounts of this uncertainty or place it firmly center-stage as one of those things celestials have to live with. (The Council of Nicea, for those who haven't heard of it, was a grand council of all Christendom, called by Emperor Constantine, the Roman Emperor who converted to Christianity. It was called to decide between two competing theologies -- Arian, which regarded Christ as the first and highest creation of God but not actually God Himself, and Athanasian, which regarded Christ as an aspect of God in the Trinitarian manner that is now orthodoxy. Though Athanasius won, it was a near thing and the controversy didn't die away for centuries. For that matter, a few highly heterodox Christian denominations are still Arian.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 10:48:01 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > Armand wrote: > > > But then what about the poor guys who decided to convert? Often > > times, one of their feet were cut off so that running away would > > not be an option. They were then made into servants. > > "Slaves" is probably the word you were looking for. That, too, > was objected to by the missionaries, I have heard. > > Earl I was being subtle. Anyway, the missionaries did protest, "Why do you soldiers get all the good ones?" That was the primary objections. Some objected to the amputations, but were more concerned with a slaves ability to work while injured. Armand ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:32:50 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Earl Wajenberg wrote: > "Slaves" is probably the word you were looking for. That, too, > was objected to by the missionaries, I have heard. Like most things in life, the answer is sometimes yes and sometimes no. On the whole, the missionaries behaved comparatively well ("comparatively" being the operative word here). The real stain on the Church is the fact that, for reasons that had a lot more to do with politics in Europe than ethics in the Americas, the hierarchy decided to let the secular authorities do whatever they liked with the natives. I highly recommend the movie "The Mission." It isn't factually history, but it captures the flavor. Besides, where else can you watch both Robert DeNiro and Jeremy Irons? J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:47:24 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> IN: the Temple Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Whoo, boy! Yes, lots of fun, especially if you want to push hard > on Canon Doubt and Uncertainty. Such a period piece would either > have to tear away large amounts of this uncertainty or place it > firmly center-stage as one of those things celestials have to > live with. I'm not so sure that I want these questions answered, for a couple of reasons. First, as has been apparent, you run the risk of offending people if the official interpretation is "wrong." But on a more fundamental level, the current ambiguity leaves open the potential for a lot of different styles of games. One in which Christianity, or at least the basic Judeo-Christian-Islamic framework, is an essential part of heaven, would be a very different game than one with a divinity that more closely resembles the concept that a deist would put forth. Both could be very interesting to play in, though my personal reading of the IN material leans more closely to the latter. While I understand that people can run non-canon games, even ones that are extremely such, it is more difficult since you have to spend time arguing with the people who keep telling you that you're doing it wrong. It also has the potential to turn off a goodly number of prospective gamers. This is particularly true on a subject as personal as religion, but can be anything. I think White Wolf's World of Darkness has some interesting concepts, but I find the basic world view presented in it so repellant that I'm unlikely to ever play it. (Though, I'll concede, part of my crankiness is that, while WW owned it, they screwed with Ars Magica to make it fit into their pre-existing world.) From my perspective, the last thing SJG needs to do with IN is alienate potential players before they've put a dime into the corporate coffers. Sorry, I mean, "developed an interest in the game." > (The Council of Nicea, for those who haven't heard of it, was > a grand council of all Christendom, called by Emperor Constantine, > the Roman Emperor who converted to Christianity. It was called > to decide between two competing theologies -- Arian, which > regarded Christ as the first and highest creation of God but not > actually God Himself, and Athanasian, which regarded Christ as an > aspect of God in the Trinitarian manner that is now orthodoxy. > Though Athanasius won, it was a near thing and the controversy > didn't die away for centuries. For that matter, a few highly > heterodox Christian denominations are still Arian.) Heterodox? Hey, we Unitarians got it right! J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:29:52 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Roles At 11:14 PM -0500 7/15/98, Eeyore wrote: >How are roles created? Ah, yes, *that* FAQ again. Karakash, is this one in the FAQ? It's certainly in the digest archives... There are a lot of ways to create roles. Some involve forging documents, some involve having a lesser celestial spirit live through a childhood (often in an orphanage, but how many Soldiers or 5-Force non-mundanes have "babies"...?) and hand over the book of notes (or have a Superior schloop the memories and stuff them into the angel/demon's head) and the vessel (transferred by the Superior). - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:24:48 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Falling from the fallen At 10:15 PM +0100 7/15/98, Roland Ward wrote: > However I would suggest that something that could happen to a demon >that isn't really covered is the problem of a demon either becoming too >self obsessed or too random. They would in effect become useless, or >worse a danger to everyone - in both cases they would no longer be evil >just chaotic. A demon might have to check that they don't ultimately >"self-distruct". Well, gobs of Discord kind of fulfill that role. As someone in the past has said (Em? Jo? Someone else?), you can't do much when you're bright blue; afraid of butterflies, crabgrass and the postman; crippled in all limbs; and Need six doses of fresh-plucked rose petals in wine sauce daily. It's not destroyed, but it's the next best thing... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:33:21 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Servitors of Dominic who go too far At 11:32 PM -0500 7/15/98, Eeyore wrote: >Peter Martin wrote: > >> Triads of judgement are scary things to begin with. However, this one is >> worst than most. Composed of One Seraph, One Malakite, and one Elohite, >> this triad has managed to get EVERY celestial it goes after labelled a >> traitor, even a few who were clearly innocent. The "prove" guilt through >> whatever means neccessary, even entrapment and subversive tactics. [...] > >Boy, it sounds like these guys would pick up an awful lot of dissonance >really quickly. I suspect that we'll find them as Servitors of the Game >very soon. Any Seraph of Judgment who ignored the TRUTH of innocence (and even with a mere 10 target number, it'll happen eventually if he resonates at all), in favor of his own preconceptions, is set to Fall like a stone. And if Dominic drops by on his weekly visit and (with his CD stuck on 6) finds that this Seraph isn't *using* his resonance to determine Truth... >>>>FAZAM<<<< Of course, if you're doing a more insane Dominic, this pack works just fine...... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:18:56 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Tethers (Re: The Western Wall) At 11:07 AM +0100 7/16/98, Hart, Joanna wrote: >Well, do the superiors really get much choice about where their tethers >appear on earth? Nope. Well, they can refuse to anchor the Tether, and let it drift to somebody else or fade away, but they can't get one to appear where it suits them. (At least, not without doing a really subtle campaign to get humans doing The Right Thing in the area. And even then, it might not work.) However, Tethers can also be broken, in numerous ways... It might not connect to the opposite side, but simply fade away... >(Just think. You can include it in the tethers book **hopeful hint** :) And >if the Kaaba isn't a tether to Faith/ Stone I will be most upset.) Khalid's Tethers won't be appearing in the book, alas... (If we gave ever Superior to date a page, that section would be Really Big. I'd think that a Tether-book is better if it has rules and explanations and suggestions and world-effects -- not if it's simply a laundry list of Tethers Of The Superiors...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:17:57 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light At 3:03 PM +0200 7/16/98, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: >All I'm saying, or at least trying to say, is that from published canon we >can't draw the conclusion that the Superiors care about the destructions >of the Temples. Maybe they do, maybe they don't - we don't know. This is a good point, right there -- at the moment, the caring or lack thereof is in a state of Limbo. (They haven't been stated to care, either.) >Yes, I've tried to argue for reasons that the Superiors don't find it very >important, since it hasn't exactly been given much space in published >canon. The Purity Crusade and the creation of Islam apparently are more >relevant to the AA:s today. The Creation of Islam resulted in Gabriel's trial, and her running off in a snit. The Purity Crusade resulted in Uriel being yanked upstairs and Laurence being promoted. (And some Khalid stuff as well, but that's not relevant until FT...) The obvious conclusion that *I* come to is that the Temple-destruction simply didn't do anything to the overall political structure that has persisted this long. Or maybe it did, but the AA/DP it affected is dead/minor now. They may well have cared, and it may well have resulted in saber-rattling. It may all have been human-done, which meant that Armageddon *didn't* start. (Despite the demons laughing and pointing.) But there's currently no serious effect on the events of *today* that the sourcebooks are going into. (As a note -- if canon is silent on something, don't *necessarily* assume that it's because it wasn't important. Just assume it's not important enough *now* to go into. Yet.) As Em says: >It is _extremely_ possible that canon doesn't say it's important yet >because sourcebooks focusing on that time period haven't been written yet >and THAT is the reason, not because Superiors didn't CARE. (And, well, check my .sig. If I don't have any clue what I'm talking about, then... [And yes, I need to figure out how to change the "Moriah is LE" note in the list login. I need to find the blessed commands...]) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:47:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: IN> Dominic and insane Triads ... On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > And if Dominic drops by on his weekly visit and (with his CD stuck on 6) > finds that this Seraph isn't *using* his resonance to determine Truth... > >>>>FAZAM<<<< No; I think Dominic would drag the Seraph back to Heaven, call up the other two-thirds, and question them in detail about their investigations to find out who knew about this behavior and hadn't reported it. Then he'd kill all three of them without a qualm: they're obviously bucking for a Fall and it's better to Fry than Fall. > Of course, if you're doing a more insane Dominic, this pack works > just fine...... I think an insane Dominic works better if the Inquisition's biases are subtler, but it all depends on the campaign. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:00:04 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Tethers (Re: The Western Wall) >From: Elizabeth McCoy >Khalid's Tethers won't be appearing in the book, alas... (If we gave >ever Superior to date a page, that section would be Really Big. I'd >think that a Tether-book is better if it has rules and explanations >and suggestions and world-effects -- not if it's simply a laundry list >of Tethers Of The Superiors...) I'd like to see something like the Chantries book for Mage: the Ascension. A handful of major Tethers with characters, history, relations, and plot hooks, as well as rules and guidelines for designing/fleshing out your own Tethers. (Actually, alot of stuff from the Chantries book could probably be adapted...) My conception of Tethers (without having written anything for it yet) is that the link to the celestial plane causes a constant Symphonic disturbance, which is so loud it can mask other disturbances. Most stuff just won't be heard, but even invoking an archangel will be partially muffled. I also like the idea of weak Tethers, which provide a BONUS for Ascending instead of making it automatic, and are quieter and less of an aid for invoking a superior (if at all). In one game I ran, the angel PC's didn't know that grove in the woods was an Infernal Tether until the Shedite they were chasing went down to Hell through it. He only got a moderate bonus to the roll, as it is incredibly weakened from neglect. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 23:22:36 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> IN: the Temple On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Jo Hart wrote: > Now I'm not fascinated by _every_ period of histoty but I can't help > feeling that an IN source covering the Nicean council period, or at least a > few good (web or written) references and some plot hooks, might be quite > fun. Maybe not for entire campaigns, but the odd one-off or 'flashback' > scenario (OK guys, in the present day your characters are old hands at this > earth business but back in the early 300s, you were involved in trying to > settle a _minor_ _little_ dispute...). I was reading a book about Byzantium > in the period of Theodora and it sounded rather wild. Just as an aside - there is a quite fun little card game about this, called "Credo", where the players represent different varieties of Christianity trying to push their version. Trying for another last-minute save to get this back on topic: Uhmmm... Wait a minute... uhmmm... I guess you could use the little cards that represent the different articles of faith to get a random angel's opinion on various things. "I firmly believe that Christ was of the same substance as the Father, and that He wasn't actually crucified, but only appeared to be." Nah, not really good. It's a fun game, though. :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:39:52 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Salvation and Damnation >From: Anders Gabrielsson >Well, firstly I don't equal love and worship. Secondly, there is nothing >that I can recall from IN canon that inplies that God cares much how or >even if you worship Him. It's how you live your life that matters. If you >are unselfish and help your fellow humans - reach your Destiny - you go to >Heaven. If you act selfishly, and/or cause a lot of pain and destruction, >you go to Hell. Worship or love for God doesn't come into it. If God is the consciousness of the universe, then one who loves God loves the universe, and one who loves the universe loves God. Worship is simply a way of telling God how you feel. Unless you have hardcore issues, you don't want to hurt what you love. Thus someone who loves God/the universe wouldn't want to hurt Him/it. This includes anything that's a part of it, which would be everything. By loving God, you can become genuinely selfless, as eveything you do for another you do for God. When you're able to accept God into yourself, and yourself as a part of God, then you can join Him in Heaven after your death. On the other hand, if you hate God, or just don't care about the universe, you cut yourself off. You become completely selfish, and deny God his place in yourself and your own place with God, and are unable to join him after death. You aren't judged on your actions, you're judged by your heart. Your heart determines your actions; when you love God, there are some things you JUST WON'T DO. You don't even have to consciously realize that God is a factor, as long as the feeling's there. God doesn't let you into Heaven OR banish you to Hell. You do it to yourself. (And I can't believe that *I*, a hardcore agnostic, just wrote the above post. Yikes. ) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:45:54 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Monotheism and idol worship >From: Anders Gabrielsson >Going from "there is only one God" to "idol-worship is wrong" is quite a >step, IMO. There is nothing in IN canon to indicate that the God of the IN >universe worries about it - there are plenty of "idol-worshippers" in >Heaven. People have a psychological need that religion fulfills for them. Nowadays, some find another way to fill it, but for muich of history religion was the only really accessible way. Idol worship, etc., is what spawned the pagan gods, and is what continued to feed them power. Whatever GOD'S opinion on them, the archangels had a problem with this. Uriel was just the first one to take the fight to enemy. Monotheism has long been promoted by the Host as a way to let humans fulfil that need without empowering the ethereal spirits. And yes, idol worshippers can get into Heaven, since in In Nomine, faith in God isn't a requirement for salvation (although it can be a factor; see my other post on that note). ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 17:48:30 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine as LARP "Ellen Kakkaratchi" wrote: > >Okay, on a different thread, which I hope hasn't been done to death previous >to me joining the list, are their any resources, web or otherwise, regarding >In Nomine as a live action game? I run a (UK based) LARP group which >currently stages World of darkness (mostly Vampire) campaigns, and one off >freeforms based in worlds of our own making. It has been striking me for >some time that In Nomine could work well as live action, but before I start >designing a system, I thought I'd check to see if someone had already done >the work for me! > >Also, what do people think about the potential for such a thing. There is >never any problem getting players for vampire games, even the more unusual >ones we do (dark ages etc.). Will In Nomine be as popular? Has anyone run an >In Nomine LARP? If so, what conclusions did you draw? I used to do a little of this, and I think that a certain amount of hacking would need to be done to get it to work. Here are a few of my thoughts. o Celestial Forms I'd just punt these altogether. Angels and demons in vessels stay in vessels. While you /could/ mechanic it with something like headbands, you run into SOD problems of why they can't go through walls and stuff. o Tethers It's a good idea to have a few in-game, since they can be used as a "common room" where players can meet without seeming very artificial in-game. Personally, I'd keep things down to 1 angelic and 1 infernal tether apiece within the game area, because that will tend to make meetings easier, and in practice one will be used to the exclusion of the others. If you rule that it's /only/ possible to go to Heaven or Hell from a Tether, then you can physrep H&H with a few rooms adjacent to the Tether. o Kyriotates and Shedim Drop them. It would be amazingly hard to come up with a mechanic for them in a way that didn't require huge amounts of firewalling on the parts of the players. (Although, I know of a game where one PC was a costumed superhero, and the GMs of the game had one player play the character when costumed and another play him when he was out of costume.) o Other resonances The demonic (except for Lilim) and Ofanite resonances are pretty easy to convert to a low-mechanics form suitable for LARPing. It's the resonances with significant amounts of information gathering powers that are problematic. In general, I'd convert the powers to a yes/no format, so that there don't have to be long breaks in the action where a player explains his motivations to another player. These are tolerable in tabletop, but really take away from the visceral you-are-there feeling that is live-action RP's strength. (A yes/no also lets you do a thumbs-up/thumbs-down thing without having to break the dialogue. Unobtrusive mechanics are a Good Thing.) Here's how I'd do the Seraph resonance. I'd simply throw out all of the complicated bits, and just reduce it to being able to know the answer to the question "Is this person telling the truth?" When a player wants to use his resonance, she just tells the person she's resonating on that she's using her Seraph resonance on him. For the rest of the conversation, the victim then signals (however is convenient) whenever he makes a false statement. o Essence regeneration Depending on how your games are structured, you may want to increase the Essence regeneration rate above the 1/day. I've never played in a continuing LARP -- the long Assassin's Guild games I was in were 10 days long. Maybe frotzing with rites would work, though for the sake of the players' sanity you should toss out rites like "Spend 6 hours reading in a library" and replace them with more active things. In any case, I always hated mechanics that ran along the lines of "leave game for X period of time to accomplish Y" (typically research mechanics). Even when they succeeded in balancing the game, I was irritated by them -- and they didn't succeed very often. And so on... - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:50:27 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Falling from the fallen >From: Roland Ward > However I would suggest that something that could happen to a demon >that isn't really covered is the problem of a demon either becoming too >self obsessed or too random. They would in effect become useless, or >worse a danger to everyone - in both cases they would no longer be evil >just chaotic. A demon might have to check that they don't ultimately >"self-distruct". I can see how being too chaotic would be bad for SOME demons (Balseraphs would find it too easy to get caught in a lie if they're not careful, Asmodeus' guys have orders to follow), but how can a demon POSSIBLY be too self-obsessed? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:00:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN> Falling from the fallen I'd think that a demon who no longer actually furthers his masters word would become less of a service to his Demon Prince. Such a creature might be retired to pick up litter in Abaddon as punishment while a new aspiring demon takes his place on Earth. Of course, a demon could always go renegade from such a punishment... I've heard of people who aren't motivated, active, or useful. They're called unemployable. What happens to them? Well, they don't get to drive the company car (or corporeal vessel, or whatever). -Jayson > At 10:15 PM +0100 7/15/98, Roland Ward wrote: > > However I would suggest that something that could happen to a demon > >that isn't really covered is the problem of a demon either becoming too > >self obsessed or too random. They would in effect become useless, or > >worse a danger to everyone - in both cases they would no longer be evil > >just chaotic. A demon might have to check that they don't ultimately > >"self-distruct". _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:11:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Querent Subject: Tether Sourcebook (Re: IN> Tethers) I'd love to see a book of Tethers! (There's anothe vote.) I'd like to see what exactly goes into creation of a Tether... time/effort/essence involved. What are the different ways they're created? Are there benefits to different methods? What about Tether quirks? Do they make disturbances? How much? What about essence/song/resonance use in a Tether? What about such use in a tether *of the opposing side's*...? If a demon walks into an angel tether of revelation, is he found out? Do the various tethers have unique qualities based on what part of the celestial realm they're attached to? (David's tethers harder to damage, Michael's give defensive edges to it's defenders, Novalis' give penalties to attack within the tether, etc...) GIVE IT TO US! -Jayson - ---Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > At 11:07 AM +0100 7/16/98, Hart, Joanna wrote: > > >Well, do the superiors really get much choice about where their tethers > >appear on earth? > > Nope. Well, they can refuse to anchor the Tether, and let it drift > to somebody else or fade away, but they can't get one to appear where > it suits them. (At least, not without doing a really subtle campaign > to get humans doing The Right Thing in the area. And even then, it > might not work.) > > However, Tethers can also be broken, in numerous ways... It > might not connect to the opposite side, but simply fade away... > > >(Just think. You can include it in the tethers book **hopeful hint** :) And > >if the Kaaba isn't a tether to Faith/ Stone I will be most upset.) > > Khalid's Tethers won't be appearing in the book, alas... (If we gave > ever Superior to date a page, that section would be Really Big. I'd > think that a Tether-book is better if it has rules and explanations > and suggestions and world-effects -- not if it's simply a laundry list > of Tethers Of The Superiors...) > > > --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor > GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ > > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #862 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.