From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Jul 17 05:02:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA21309 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 05:02:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id EAA14049 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 04:57:46 -0500 Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 04:57:46 -0500 Message-Id: <199807170957.EAA14049@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #863 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, July 17 1998 Volume 01 : Number 863 In this digest: Re: IN> Acting Dissonant -- Why celestials don't Re: IN> IN: the Temple Re: IN> IN: the Temple Re: Tether Sourcebook (Re: IN> Tethers) IN> Dominic as Rebel RE: IN> In Nomine as LARP RE: IN> In Nomine as LARP Re: IN> Re: IN- Tethers (Re: The Western Wall) Re: Tether Sourcebook (Re: IN> Tethers) IN> Re: Servitors of Dominic Who Go too far; the creator speaks IN> The Western Wall IN> The Western Wall IN> The Kaaba Re: IN> Re: Servitors of Dominic Who Go too far; the creator speaks Re: IN> Dominic as Rebel Re: IN> In Nomine as LARP IN> People of the sun IN> Tether net-book (Re: Tether Sourcebook) Re: IN> Monotheism and idol worship Re: IN> Salvation and Damnation Re: IN> Acting Dissonant -- Why celestials don't Re: IN> Re: IN- Word-Bound Servitors of David ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Jul 98 18:28 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Acting Dissonant -- Why celestials don't *Really* nice summary of dissonance, David! Now we need to get that into canon somewhere.... [Demiurge:] > So if anyone has a great way of explaining any game mechanic in >game-world terms, I'd love to hear it--particularly Songs and disturbances >in the Symphony (without resorting to the Star Wars cliche--"You feel a >great disturbance in the Force, er, *Symphony*"). Disturbance is sort of like someone in an orchestra ignoring the conductor and playing too loud, out of tempo, or even the wrong piece of music. I.e., you're sticking out, even if you're generally playing along with everyone else. Songs are sort of like playing a part too loudly, or maybe adding a little improv to one of the Symphony's melodic lines. You're not actually rewriting the Symphony, but you're emphasizing certain parts unnaturally, in ways that cause the results you want. Or you may be moving *this* melody over *there*. Sort of musical cut & paste, maybe.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 98 19:00 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> IN: the Temple [Earl:] >Though the Bible is not "inerrant" in the IN canon, it is still >a source, Or maybe it's more a derivative work from the IN Truth.... > But since the whole theme of the divine in >IN is love, which would include the love by humans of God, I could >argue that the Biblical approach is more centrally canonical. I would not put it quite so strongly. The way I've been seeing it is derived mostly from reading between the lines of the writeups on the AAs who were significantly involved with religion: Yves, Dominic, Gabriel, and Laurence. (Khalid should also be in there, but I haven't seen his stuff yet.) The way I've interpreted that is that the AAs have meddled in human religions for a long time, but not necessarily that "worship", per se, is important. More that religions are a useful tool to guide humans in doing the right things, in making their choices. Note that Yves, in the main book (I think), is described as having turned away from religion as such a tool after the Islam mess, and is now more interested in philosophy as a basis for understanding. (I hope I'm paraphrasing that right....) That suggests that in IN canon, the Bible is a human interpretation of some more or less accurate knowledge of the Truth about the Symphony. Some parts of it indeed may have been passed on by celestials, but that simply means that those parts serve celestial ends, not that they're actually true. Incidentally, I do agree that "love" is the core of the angelic viewpoint, including "love of God", as the Symphony. But love and worship are two different things, at least as typically practiced by humans.... I don't see the IN God *needing* worship, as long as the principles He proposes as "right" are practiced -- the name(s) and ceremonies aren't really relevant, it's the behavior and motivations that are important. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 98 19:08 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> IN: the Temple [jo:] >Now I'm not fascinated by _every_ period of histoty but I can't help >feeling that an IN source covering the Nicean council period, or at least a >few good (web or written) references and some plot hooks, might be quite >fun. Maybe not for entire campaigns, but the odd one-off or 'flashback' >scenario (OK guys, in the present day your characters are old hands at this >earth business but back in the early 300s, you were involved in trying to >settle a _minor_ _little_ dispute...). I was reading a book about Byzantium >in the period of Theodora and it sounded rather wild. Elizabeth and I have been tossing around some ideas related to historical In Nomine, and what might be done with it. There are a lot of interesting possibilities -- not only can you interact with major events in neat ways, but you can also have the same character involved in different periods. Or have plots spanning centuries before being resolved. Part of the trick here is fitting the "IN Historical" concept into the line format in some useful way. One notion is to make it the core of one of the future Cycles. Another would be a straight "IN Historical" sourcebook, but I have a feeling that would be rather dry, and possibly too superficial. Some sort of adventure-oriented format is probably the best, picking and choosing some interesting historical corners to poke into -- preferably some of the more obscure ones. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 98 19:33 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: Tether Sourcebook (Re: IN> Tethers) >I'd love to see a book of Tethers! (There's anothe vote.) You don't need to vote, just buy it. It's in production, but not officially scheduled for a release date yet. > I'd like >to see what exactly goes into creation of a Tether... >time/effort/essence involved. What are the different ways they're >created? Are there benefits to different methods? What about Tether >quirks? Do they make disturbances? How much? [etc....] Most of what you've asked for will be covered. And much of it is already written. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 00:31:28 +0100 From: Sandra Palmer Subject: IN> Dominic as Rebel I was kicking around some heresies earlier today and came up with this rather bizarre train of thought - Since the Fall, Dominic has had the Word of Justice. To him, Justice is the most important thing in the universe. The good must be rewarded, and the evil punished - that is his purpose. Unfortunately, God doesn't live up to Dominic's standards. The Archangel began brooding on these issues after the trial of Michael, where, as far as he could see, God intervened not to uphold Justice, but to give his side a better chance in the war. After that, Dominic thought on other issues. All the usual theodicy issues went through his mind - how does God permit suffering, etc - but with a uniquely Archangelic twist; how can God let a Celestial be destroyed? Why did he ever allow the Fall? What the hell is he doing? At first Dominic tried to console himself with thoughts of the ineffable divine mind, overarching plans that he was not able to perceive, and so forth. Eventually, however, he came to the conclusion that that was no excuse. What evidence did they have of this plan? Were things turning out for the better? As far as he could see, Hell was winning the war hands down. How could God excuse himself by claiming he knew more than everyone else? Wasn't this just petty boasting? Dominic started reading Job a lot and muttering "That's not a logical argument" under his breath ... So, Dominic decided to rebel against God. To overthrow him and establish a just universe. The cause might be doomed, but it would be going against his very nature to ignore God's tyranny. It was then that he got together with Eli, convinced Eli, always one of the more free-thinking of the archangels, of the truth of his position, and hatched a plan. Eli would desert his role and wander the Earth, looking for clues in humanity, in which God had put so much of himself, as to how God might be overthrown. Dominic would persecute his angels, cruelly and unfairly, in order to motivate more angels towards Dominic's secret line of thought. Meanwhile Dominic is feeding the forces of Hell information through Asmodeus, enough, he hopes, to give them a large enough advantage to *force* God to intervene one way or another, revealing once and for all the nature of his supposed _plan_ Dominic's playing a very dangerous game, and it's in danger of tearing him apart ... Thoughts? James. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 00:39:41 +0100 From: "Ellen Kakkaratchi" Subject: RE: IN> In Nomine as LARP Thanks for all this, Neel. > I used to do a little of this, and I think that a certain amount of > hacking would need to be done to get it to work. Here are a few of > my thoughts. > > o Celestial Forms > > I'd just punt these altogether. Angels and demons in vessels stay in > vessels. While you /could/ mechanic it with something like headbands, > you run into SOD problems of why they can't go through walls and > stuff. In our Vampire games, we run into the same problems with Obfuscate and Shadow-jumping, let alone what happens in Mage games. We just get by it with the old 'hand in the air' trick. If necessary we 'Time Freeze'. Still, we are normally talking about a minority of players. With In Nomine, every character is going to have the potential for this, so I take your point. > o Tethers > > It's a good idea to have a few in-game, since they can be used as > a "common room" where players can meet without seeming very artificial > in-game. > > Personally, I'd keep things down to 1 angelic and 1 infernal tether > apiece within the game area, because that will tend to make meetings > easier, and in practice one will be used to the exclusion of the others. > > If you rule that it's /only/ possible to go to Heaven or Hell from a > Tether, then you can physrep H&H with a few rooms adjacent to the > Tether. You are assuming both Infernal and Angelic PC's, it seems. I think I would rather limit it to just one or the other, unless I suddenly decide, 'yes, I love live action combat, let's have lots more.' (we tend towards more political games). Also, I imagine, if I did this, the main hall of the school we hire would be the tether where the PC's gathered. The lesser rooms would be lesser locations. As for having Heaven or Hell in a live game, my props and scenery man would go mad. Having said that, it's a tempting idea.... Is it your opinion that In Nomine won't work as a purely political game, that it needs the action of direct conflict/ competition with the other side to make it work? This wouldn't be impossible to organise, but I think it would have to be a weekend event at the scout camp, with opposing teams racing to get to the same objective, rather than a series of evenings. Alternatively, the 'other-side' could be monstered, that is played by refs, and just pop up now and then to add some aggro. This would be easier to organise, it would just be an extension of the Camarilla Vs the Sabbat games we've run in the past. > o Kyriotates and Shedim > > Drop them. It would be amazingly hard to come up with a mechanic for > them in a way that didn't require huge amounts of firewalling on the > parts of the players. (Although, I know of a game where one PC was a > costumed superhero, and the GMs of the game had one player play the > character when costumed and another play him when he was out of > costume.) Yes, you're right. We've had similar problems in vampire with people playing characters with Mask of a Thousand Faces - the other players have to be very good role-players for this to work. > o Other resonances > > The demonic (except for Lilim) and Ofanite resonances are pretty > easy to convert to a low-mechanics form suitable for LARPing. It's > the resonances with significant amounts of information gathering > powers that are problematic. > > In general, I'd convert the powers to a yes/no format, so that > there don't have to be long breaks in the action where a player > explains his motivations to another player. These are tolerable > in tabletop, but really take away from the visceral you-are-there > feeling that is live-action RP's strength. (A yes/no also lets > you do a thumbs-up/thumbs-down thing without having to break the > dialogue. Unobtrusive mechanics are a Good Thing.) > > Here's how I'd do the Seraph resonance. I'd simply throw out all > of the complicated bits, and just reduce it to being able to know > the answer to the question "Is this person telling the truth?" > > When a player wants to use his resonance, she just tells the > person she's resonating on that she's using her Seraph resonance > on him. For the rest of the conversation, the victim then signals > (however is convenient) whenever he makes a false statement. points taken. > o Essence regeneration > > Depending on how your games are structured, you may want to increase > the Essence regeneration rate above the 1/day. I've never played in > a continuing LARP -- the long Assassin's Guild games I was in were > 10 days long. Maybe frotzing with rites would work, though for the > sake of the players' sanity you should toss out rites like "Spend 6 > hours reading in a library" and replace them with more active things. > > In any case, I always hated mechanics that ran along the lines of > "leave game for X period of time to accomplish Y" (typically research > mechanics). Even when they succeeded in balancing the game, I was > irritated by them -- and they didn't succeed very often. I certainly wouldn't allow them any more essence, if they are playing properly they shouldn't need it. We do everything we can to discourage gung ho attitudes and encourage natural caution and consideration. I take your point about the rites though. I will make sure every one has a time efficient way of regenerating essence available to them - it will just be expensive in other ways! Thanks again for all your ideas. They've really got me thinking I am, as always, Ellen (Lilim of Self Indulgent Avoidance Tactics) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 00:39:46 +0100 From: "Ellen Kakkaratchi" Subject: RE: IN> In Nomine as LARP Hi Anders You asked some good questions. > Is IN well-known? I'm really not sure how well known it is in the UK. I've noticed several people on this list have UK e-addresses - what is your opinion about IN popularity here? There is never any shortage of players for Vampire games, there are a great many Masquerade (ugh) and other freeform groups dedicated entirely to Vampire through out the UK. The question is, would I find anywhere near that interest for IN? > Are the > people you play with willing to try new things? (I'd say yes to that one, > from your description.) Yes, most of them are, for one off at least. Whether I'd get enough interest up for a campaign is another matter. If I'm prepared to stick to just my current player group, I shouldn't have any real problems, but it would be nice to draw players in from elsewhere. >How much material can you give them beforehand? > You'll at least have to present the general cosmology - how much more > would depend on the level you're playing at (Superiors, Word-bound, > "normal" angels, Soldiers & Sorcerers, minor demons, hapless humans) > I'd really like to try this myself, but I have too little time. :) This is the stumbler, of course. The work involved in preparing rules and background sufficient for players who previously knew nothing about the game involved, is considerable. This, I guess is why I was asking these questions. I've got to feel convinced it's worth while before I commit myself. I am, as always, Ellen (Lilim of Self Indulgent Avoidance Tactics) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 98 19:46 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Tethers (Re: The Western Wall) >I'd like to see something like the Chantries book for Mage: the >Ascension. A handful of major Tethers with characters, history, >relations, and plot hooks, as well as rules and guidelines for >designing/fleshing out your own Tethers. (Actually, alot of stuff from >the Chantries book could probably be adapted...) Never seen the Chantries book, but what's being done is close to what youy describe. There is a section with Tethers from all the major Superiors (the core book set), with one or two detailed for each. Most of the rest of it is how to set up Tethers in the game (i.e., primarily GM material), plus how they work and so on. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 20:10:58 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Tether Sourcebook (Re: IN> Tethers) At 3:11 PM -0700 7/16/98, Querent wrote: >I'd love to see a book of Tethers! (There's anothe vote.) Good, since I'm working on it. (ETA? I don't know.) >GIVE IT TO US! Hate to tell you this, but you'll have to pay money. You see, if everything were given away, then SJ Games would go out of business, and there wouldn't be anything official ever again... O;> (And it's not even on a 'coming soon' track, so don't pester me for firm numbers, 'cause I don't know 'em. I just know that I'm working on stuff, I have busy little authors chained to their computers working on stuff, and it's progressing.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 17:19:32 PDT From: "Peter Martin" Subject: IN> Re: Servitors of Dominic Who Go too far; the creator speaks Actually, these angels would probably NOT be very dissonant. I did my best to find evasions on their abilities, and remeber, a seraph's resonance only appplies when someone believes what they're saying (except on a check digit of 6) The triad simply sends in the Elohite to make the celestial FEEL like a traitor, then the seraph to ask: "Do you feel that you are TOTALLY innocent in the eyes of heaven?", and finally the Malakim to kill them. They can get more subversive than that, and often do with REALLY tough nuts to crack, but Dominic LOVES them. They honestly believe they're doing the right thing, and therefore, when he uses HIS Seraphic resonance on them, they come out seeming pretty good. They also tend to pick their targets, but any celestial they encounter is suddenly FOOD. They could also work off dissonance at a tether regularly, justifying not going after the seneschal by saying he's later on the list. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 21:34:25 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> The Western Wall >>>Well, do the superiors really get much choice about where their tethers appear on earth?<<< Not really, but the issue of where the Archangels' communal gathering place is is a little different. The question is, which of the major divine Tethers that _already_ exist are they going to use as their headquarters? The Kaaba might indeed still be a divine Tether -- but it simply isn't used as Heaven's headquarters anymore (if it ever was) because as I pointed out earlier, Laurence probably wanted something with major ties to the Catholic Church. And although individually, Archangels can indeed manifest wherever they want, holding Archangelic meetings in the middle of enemy territory probably isn't very good strategy (even if it is the sort of thumbing-your-nose action that Michael and David would probably enjoy...) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 21:39:59 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> The Western Wall >>>My argument is that I don't believe that Notre Dame is a strong tether for all three major religions - well, certainly not Islam. It is a great tether for Laurence/Dominic, but I'm not wholy convinced that its a representation of Heaven. The problem is that I can't think of any place that is a good place for all three that is not in the Near East.<<< In canon, none of the three major religions are necessarily right! And not all the Archangels necessarily care about _any_ of them. And Laurence, in particular, being in charge of the Host, has the authority to choose the place HE deems most suitable for Heaven's corporeal headquarters...and he's probably going to choose a place anchored in the religion HE prefers. Heaven in general, and Laurence in particular, has NO obligation to choose a place that's representative of all the major monotheistic religons -- their criteria might be entirely different from what mortal practitioners of those religions might assume. - -David (haven't we been here before?) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 21:49:46 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> The Kaaba >>>I don't think that taking the Hajj is written up as a rite or anything, so - - believe it or not - there is likely no Kaaba in Mecca. Although talk about a giant tether to Stone, woo.<<< Presumably you meant "there is likely no _Tether_ in Mecca"? Why do you assume that because no Rite has been written up (Khalid hasn't even been published yet) that this means there's no Tether? Actually, though the Kaaba is a big stone, it is more likely a Tether to Faith. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 21:35:12 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Re: Servitors of Dominic Who Go too far; the creator speaks Peter Martin wrote: > Actually, these angels would probably NOT be very dissonant. I did my > best to find evasions on their abilities, and remeber, a seraph's > resonance only appplies when someone believes what they're saying > (except on a check digit of 6) The triad simply sends in the Elohite to > make the celestial FEEL like a traitor, then the seraph to ask: "Do you > feel that you are TOTALLY innocent in the eyes of heaven?", and finally > the Malakim to kill them. They can get more subversive than that, and > often do with REALLY tough nuts to crack, but Dominic LOVES them. They > honestly believe they're doing the right thing, and therefore, when he > uses HIS Seraphic resonance on them, they come out seeming pretty good. > They also tend to pick their targets, but any celestial they encounter > is suddenly FOOD. They could also work off dissonance at a tether > regularly, justifying not going after the seneschal by saying he's later > on the list. You're missing the dissonance they pick up for being Servitors of Dominic. I quote, "...it's dissonant for them to inflict a punishment greater than the crime..." Listen, I have a lot of suspicion of Dominic myself; he rather reminds me of James Jesus Angleton (the long serving chief of counter-intelligence for the CIA). When your whole job consists of finding the enemy lurking behind the bush, eventually every bush seems to have an enemy behind it and you get caught (to use Angleton's most famous quote) in your own "wilderness of mirrors." Still, I rather suspect that he is not going to approve of the blatant entrapment and manufacturing of evidence going on here. Unless, that is, you are going to portray Dominic as being completely around the bend, but that strikes me as being less interesting. Also, as David Edelstein pointed out, angels actively finding ways to evade their dissonance restrictions are well on their ways to Falling right there. Healthy, resonant, angels WANT to abide by not just the letter of their nature, but the spirit as well. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 21:44:34 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Dominic as Rebel Sandra (James?) Palmer wrote: > Since the Fall, Dominic has had the Word of Justice. To him, Justice is > the most important thing in the universe. The good must be rewarded, and > the evil punished - that is his purpose. Just to keep some sort of reputation as a nit-picker (hey, I know that someone else on the list has claimed that Word; I'm making a power play), I feel compelled to point out that his Word is actually Judgement. > Eli would desert his role and wander the Earth, looking for clues in > humanity, in which God had put so much of himself, as to how God might be > overthrown. Dominic would persecute his angels, cruelly and unfairly, in > order to motivate more angels towards Dominic's secret line of thought. > Meanwhile Dominic is feeding the forces of Hell information through > Asmodeus, enough, he hopes, to give them a large enough advantage to > *force* God to intervene one way or another, revealing once and for all the > nature of his supposed _plan_ Dominic's playing a very dangerous game, and > it's in danger of tearing him apart ... I snipped most of the text, to which I'll mostly say that I really like this idea. It's fairly similar to something I'd been thinking about, but far more advanced then I had gotten to. (Thanks, you saved me a lot of work. I'm perfectly willing to steal ideas.) The only alternate suggestion I'd make is that a plan like this needs some help on the other side. Not Asmodeus; he's the perfect patsy for something like this, so busy suspecting EVERYTHING that he can't get a grasp on what's actually going on. No, Kobal is your man. It sounds like he's been getting pretty fed up with Hell anyways, and what could possibly be a better joke than Dominic rebelling against God? Yeah, he's got his own angle and plans, of course, but even if it works out just as Dominic plans, what a punchline! J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 22:38:16 -0400 From: eswhanu@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine as LARP I've done it before. With a gaming convention giving no real notice that I was running the event, I still had 46 players. Everything worked out well. Frankly, at least in the US, people are getting sick of the standard Vampire event. I run a LARP with Elder Vampires, and that draws people. I also run a Sabbat LARP, and that will draw a lot of people. People love angels and demons. You'll get people to show up. And it's a lot of fun to get someone to justify the Diabolic Intervention they just got by pointing out that Lucifer was in the room with them... Brian Ward On Fri, 17 Jul 1998 00:39:46 +0100 "Ellen Kakkaratchi" writes: >Hi Anders > >You asked some good questions. > >> Is IN well-known?>I'm really not sure how well known it is in the UK. I've noticed >several >people on this list have UK e-addresses - what is your opinion about >IN>popularity here? There is never any shortage of players for Vampire >games,>there are a great many Masquerade (ugh) and other freeform groups >dedicated>entirely to Vampire through out the UK. The question is, would I find>anywhere near that interest for IN? > >> Are the>> people you play with willing to try new things? (I'd say yes to that >one,>> from your description.)>Yes, most of them are, for one off at least. Whether I'd get enough >interest>up for a campaign is another matter. If I'm prepared to stick to just >my>current player group, I shouldn't have any real problems, but it would >be>nice to draw players in from elsewhere.> >>How much material can you give them beforehand? >> You'll at least have to present the general cosmology - how much >more>> would depend on the level you're playing at (Superiors, Word-bound,>> "normal" angels, Soldiers & Sorcerers, minor demons, hapless humans)>> I'd really like to try this myself, but I have too little time. :) > >This is the stumbler, of course. The work involved in preparing rules >and>background sufficient for players who previously knew nothing about >the game>involved, is considerable. This, I guess is why I was asking these>questions. I've got to feel convinced it's worth while before I commit>myself. > > >I am, >as always, >Ellen >(Lilim of Self Indulgent Avoidance Tactics) > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 19:35:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Taznoky Subject: IN> People of the sun > Taznoky wrote: > > > That was something that we > > can say that was demoniac by the part of the cristian church, the > > spanish sent Hernan Cortez to kill'em all. And he did so. > > Demonic, very likely; by the Christian church, no. The > conquistadors were usually opposed by the missionaries, who > wanted to *convert* the natives, not loot and kill them. > There was one bishop who is somewhat infamous for burning a lot > of Inca or Maya (I forget which) books, but (1) this is not the > same as burning the people and, (2) even that earned him an > official reprimand from the Church hierarchy. Convert the natives isn't that good too, think why they wanted it... to have a good bunch of *workers*, who acept that they are a inferior race (by the vision of the catolic church of that time) so thaey should serve the colonizers with a blind dedication. In that age europe sent the colonizers because in europe there was a lack of gold and silver, what the aztecs and mayans had a lot. Hernan, leaded by the church, took all he could from that people, after that he started to pillage theyr major cities. So, you will say that this act of greed, comanded by the chatolic church wasn't something evil... I saw in a book that the pope of that time sent a letter to Cortez that said that he could take everything from that people, because they weren't creations of God. In my vision this is not a good thing, so the catholic church isn't from all good... So this bishop should be an exception, I have never heard about him. I can say about that because here in Brazil we have a lot of classes of such subject. So I belive that in that age, the chatolic church wasn't leaded only by angels, there could be some demons or even some mundanes with a deturped point of view... I hope I wasn't rude. See ya, Taznoky _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 19:58:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Taznoky Subject: IN> Tether net-book (Re: Tether Sourcebook) - ---Querent wrote: > > I'd love to see a book of Tethers! (There's anothe vote.) I'd like > to see what exactly goes into creation of a Tether... > time/effort/essence involved. What are the different ways they're > created? Are there benefits to different methods? What about Tether > quirks? Do they make disturbances? How much? What about > essence/song/resonance use in a Tether? What about such use in a > tether *of the opposing side's*...? If a demon walks into an angel > tether of revelation, is he found out? Do the various tethers have > unique qualities based on what part of the celestial realm they're > attached to? (David's tethers harder to damage, Michael's give > defensive edges to it's defenders, Novalis' give penalties to attack > within the tether, etc...) > > GIVE IT TO US! > > -Jayson WOW! That's a great idea! An idea should be something like some songs works diferetly in some tethers... Why don't we organize an Net-book??!! This would be great!!! See ya, Taznoky _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:52:06 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Monotheism and idol worship On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Daniel Maberry wrote: > > >From: Anders Gabrielsson > >Going from "there is only one God" to "idol-worship is wrong" is quite > a > >step, IMO. There is nothing in IN canon to indicate that the God of the > IN > >universe worries about it - there are plenty of "idol-worshippers" in > >Heaven. > > People have a psychological need that religion fulfills for them. > Nowadays, some find another way to fill it, but for muich of history > religion was the only really accessible way. Idol worship, etc., is what > spawned the pagan gods, and is what continued to feed them power. > Whatever GOD'S opinion on them, the archangels had a problem with this. > Uriel was just the first one to take the fight to enemy. Monotheism has > long been promoted by the Host as a way to let humans fulfil that need > without empowering the ethereal spirits. And yes, idol worshippers can > get into Heaven, since in In Nomine, faith in God isn't a requirement > for salvation (although it can be a factor; see my other post on that > note). Uriel was the first and pretty much the -only- one to do it in a serious manner. The rest of the AA:s have kept the gains made by the Crusade, but they haven't tried to continue exterminating the Ethereals. Now, Uriel was the one behind this Crusade, the driving force. He was the one who wanted to exterminate the Ethereals, and I don't think he wanted it just because they were getting Essence that could be put to better use (in his opinion), but because he found them an offense against God. Whether God really was offended or not is something He isn't openly discussing, so it's difficult to measure Uriel's success in that direction, but the more practical effects are apparent. Many Ethereals were destroyed, and many others were driven to serve Hell simply to survive. Does this mean Heavin is in a better position now than before the Crusade? Doubtful. Does it help people get into Heaven? Not in my opinion. IMO, belonging to a monotheistic faith has no bearing on whether one gets to take the elevator up or down when one has kicked the proverbial bucket (though mixing metaphors might get one a notch lower down, I suppose). If you live a Good Life, you go up; if you live a Bad Life, you get thrown down the elevator shaft. Being a Christian might be a help - motivating one to help the poor and needy - or a hindrance - shooting abortion doctors (which I consider wrong, but if you don't, then insert your favorite error commited by people in the name of God). Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 10:03:31 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Salvation and Damnation On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Daniel Maberry wrote: > > >From: Anders Gabrielsson > >Well, firstly I don't equal love and worship. Secondly, there is > nothing > >that I can recall from IN canon that inplies that God cares much how or > >even if you worship Him. It's how you live your life that matters. If > you > >are unselfish and help your fellow humans - reach your Destiny - you go > to > >Heaven. If you act selfishly, and/or cause a lot of pain and > destruction, > >you go to Hell. Worship or love for God doesn't come into it. > > If God is the consciousness of the universe, then one who loves God > loves the universe, and one who loves the universe loves God. Worship is > simply a way of telling God how you feel. Which shouldn't really be necessary, since God should know what's in your heart anyway. I'm not saying worship is bad, just that it shouldn't have any bearing on whether you go to Heaven or not. > Unless you have hardcore issues, you don't want to hurt what you love. > Thus someone who loves God/the universe wouldn't want to hurt Him/it. > This includes anything that's a part of it, which would be everything. > By loving God, you can become genuinely selfless, as eveything you do > for another you do for God. When you're able to accept God into > yourself, and yourself as a part of God, then you can join Him in Heaven > after your death. > > On the other hand, if you hate God, or just don't care about the > universe, you cut yourself off. You become completely selfish, and deny > God his place in yourself and your own place with God, and are unable to > join him after death. > > You aren't judged on your actions, you're judged by your heart. Your > heart determines your actions; when you love God, there are some things > you JUST WON'T DO. You don't even have to consciously realize that God > is a factor, as long as the feeling's there. > > God doesn't let you into Heaven OR banish you to Hell. You do it to > yourself. This whole line of reasoning of course requiers that you identify God with the Symphony. Not many do that. (Is that's what's called pan-theism? I never get those terms straight.) Most see God as, in some sense, separate from His creation, which gives them a bit of leeway in how they deal with their fellow human beings, not to mention nature in general. Someone who loves God with all his heart can still perform "evil" acts, like murder, and even feel that he's doing the Will of God(TM). > (And I can't believe that *I*, a hardcore agnostic, just wrote the above > post. Yikes. ) Don't worry, we're on the same side. We can switch places if you want. :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:33:43 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Acting Dissonant -- Why celestials don't On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Matthew D. Gandy wrote: > So if anyone has a great way of explaining any game mechanic in > game-world terms, I'd love to hear it--particularly Songs and disturbances > in the Symphony (without resorting to the Star Wars cliche--"You feel a > great disturbance in the Force, er, *Symphony*"). Now that I think about it, I think of disturbance as noise. If the Celestial doesn't catch any details, it's just a "neutral" noise, even if it can be loud - a rumble, or explosion if it's high disturbance. If you get more details, the sound is more characteristic - a human being killed by a Celestial might be a horrible screeching sound to an Angel, for example. A Song of Motion could be a sound like wind, perhaps. The arrival of a Superior should have a characteristic sound - Beliall's would be an explosion; Beleth's could be the sound of desperate weeping; David's the sound of crashing rock; Laurence's the clash of steel on steel. Just a thought. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:39:56 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Word-Bound Servitors of David On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 9:43 PM +0200 7/14/98, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > >On Sat, 11 Jul 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > > > >> An Impudite patron doesn't work, because demons have to prevent human > >> death whenever they can, whereas Mercurians can stand by, or even > >> instigate it. > > > >That's something about the Imps that I really have a problem with - they > >actually become -softer- on humans after Falling, with regards to killing > >them. They can't stand by while their buddies kill some hapless human, the > >way a Mercurian can. I think it's a bit strange, to say the least. > > But they can personally beat up a human to the *point* of death. They > just have to make sure their little bonbon doesn't *die*. They can > threaten, punch, or otherwise abuse the human. A Mercurian can stand > by while one is killed, but cannot offer violence to even the nastiest > street gang that is surrounding him and explaining that they're > Hellsworn who are just thrilled to be able to have their very own > angel to abuse in unspeakable ways. It still jars me. Mercurians -love- humans, each and every one of them, and still they can let their buddies kill them, while the Imps, who only think of humans as walking Essence-generators, can't. They have to intervene, try to prevent it, even if they have more leeway in other ways. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #863 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.