From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Jul 24 09:57:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10729 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:57:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id JAA16833 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:51:43 -0500 Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:51:43 -0500 Message-Id: <199807241451.JAA16833@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #873 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, July 24 1998 Volume 01 : Number 873 In this digest: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting Re: IN> Marches mechanics IN> ON-line Game Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting IN> Re: IN- Character sheet idea Re: IN> Celestial Death & the Higher Heavens Re: IN> Marches mechanics Re: IN> Marches mechanics IN> Re: IN- Messing with Habbalite Minds Re: IN> Marches mechanics IN> So long for now... Re: IN> Tether net-book (Re: Tether Sourcebook) IN> Acting Dissonant -- Why celestials don't IN> Impudite stuff Re: IN> Acting Dissonant -- Why celestials don't Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting Re: IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #863 Re: IN> Re: IN- IN: mishmash (and its a whopper so, er, sorry) Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:22:57 -0700 From: "E Kumar" Subject: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting There is definately a Christian/Catholic overtone to the game, I mean it does revolve around celestial Angel and Demons after all, but let's face it, the world is a lot larger than western society. So what's the celestial stance on a place like India? There is a vast pantheon of deities there all representative of elements of the God/Creator. They're not gods in and of themselves just interpretations of his different concepts. Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva; the creator, the preserver and the destroyer respectively are the classical eastern trinity. There are lesser embodiments of this model which are very representative of Archangels. Agni - angel of fire, Visvakarma- angel of crafts and trade, Lakshmi- angel of beauty,Yama- angel of death. These are just a few examples and as far as the infernal side of things are concerned theres Soma, Katrikkaya and others but definately not to the same extent( at least not represented or worshipped - don't worry, I didn't forget Kali ). One could easily place the demon princes in any of the environments as they tend to work on an underground level anyhow. My point being that if god is in charge of the archangels who are charge of his creation, the world doesn't stop on the borders of Islam. Africa, India, China, The South Pacific Islands, and the Indonesian countries are all places that don't necessarily worship pagan or heathenistic "pantheons". They just have a different cultural attitude towards what they consider Angels! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:28:40 -0700 From: "E Kumar" Subject: Re: IN> Marches mechanics The marches as far as I've interpreted them is a catch-all setting to really let the imagination go. Whatever you decide on as far as mechanics are concerned should probably be kept consistent, but on the other hand do dreams ever really follow a standard set of rules? The dream realm is an area even most Celestials don't quite get with a few notable exceptions( ie/Balndine and Yves). I would attribute this to the fact that Angels didn't have a powerful role in creating it. . . humanity did. - ---------- > From: Walter Milliken > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> Marches mechanics > Date: Thursday, July 23, 1998 12:00 PM > > >Random Celestial in the Marches: They can tool around the Marches, wander > >to Blandine's side, Beleth's side, whatever, and they can see human > >dreamscapes, maybe even look inside, but can't _do_ anything to them > >without special abilities, right? > > Sounds right to me. > > >Okay, random Celestial with Dream Walking. So they can go into someone's > >dreamscape if they've met them before. Here's where I get a little > >confused. Does the phrase "entering the Marches through the mind of a > >human dreamer" mean that the Celestial uses Dream Walking, falls asleep, > >and appears in the Marches in the human's dreamscape? Or does the > >Celestial instead fall asleep, appear in the Marches somewhere, find the > >target's dreamscape (?), and then use the attunement to enter? What about > >this bonus for physically touching? I assume that means in the Corporeal > >plane, so does the Celestial have to fall asleep while touching the human? > > It and the Corporeal Song of Dreams are essentially the same. I've been > assuming this means the celestial is using the attunement from the > corporeal realm, on the human, to get to the Marches. So it should be > the first of your two interpretations. > > The celestial with this attunement (or Song) can also go to the Marches > on their own and use it to enter any dreamscape, as I interpret it. > > >Okay, Songs of Dream. Answering the above will I guess answer any > >questions about the Corporeal. Does the Etheral version necessitate the > >performer being in the target's dreamscape for the song to be useful? > >It's not specifically mentioned as it is in the Celestial version, so if > >not, does the performer even have to be asleep? > > Don't have the Song here, and don't recall it well enough to answer, > though it sounds like it may not be required. > > > In the Celestial version, > >it says the performer must already be in the target's dreamscape, so am I > >correct in assuming the Celestial Song of Dreams does NOT convey the > >ability to enter dreamscapes? > > I think that's right. > > > >Basically, I'm trying to work out how different scenarios unfold of > >Celestials attempting to futz with the dreams of humans. > > > >a) Random Celestial decides to fall asleep while on the Corporeal plane. > >Falls asleep, vessel sleeps, consciousness enters the Marches. Great. > >Wanders the Marches, encounters a dreamscape. How does he know whose > >dreamscape it is (i.e., how can he know if Dream Walking will help him if > >he doesn't know if he's met the dreamer before or not)? > > You can see into a dreamscape, and it should usually be pretty quickly > obvious who the main character in it is. The attunement might also > convey the ability to recognize the dreamscape's owner, if known. > > >b) Random Celestial meets Random Human. He thinks "Gee, I'd like to futz > >with RH's dreams." RH goes to sleep. How does RC go about entering RH's > >dreamscape? > > Use Dream Walking or Corp Dreams, if I remember right. > > >Maybe I should reread The Marches. :) > > It may only confuse you more -- it's one of the less-coherent books.... > > > ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:01:58 -0500 From: The Bard Subject: IN> ON-line Game I am looking for a running on-line game. I don't care if it is E-mail, Chat, or IRC. I just want to play the game. I can do both band and choir games in any setting. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:15:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Jayson Howell Subject: Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting - ---E Kumar wrote: > > There is definately a Christian/Catholic overtone to the game, I mean it > does revolve around celestial Angel and Demons after all, but let's face > it, the world is a lot larger than western society. So what's the > celestial stance on a place like India? There is a vast pantheon of > deities there all representative of elements of the God/Creator. They're > not gods in and of themselves just interpretations of his different > concepts. Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva; the creator, the preserver and the > destroyer respectively are the classical eastern trinity. There are lesser > embodiments of this model which are very representative of Archangels. > Agni - angel of fire, Visvakarma- angel of crafts and trade, Lakshmi- angel > of beauty,Yama- angel of death. These are just a few examples and as far > as the infernal side of things are concerned theres Soma, Katrikkaya and > others but definately not to the same extent( at least not represented or > worshipped - don't worry, I didn't forget Kali ). One could easily place > the demon princes in any of the environments as they tend to work on an > underground level anyhow. > My point being that if god is in charge of the archangels who are charge > of his creation, the world doesn't stop on the borders of Islam. Africa, > India, China, The South Pacific Islands, and the Indonesian countries are > all places that don't necessarily worship pagan or heathenistic > "pantheons". They just have a different cultural attitude towards what > they consider Angels! > > The above is an excerpt from a discussion overheard in the streets of the Eternal City, between a few Mercurians, a Seraph, and an Elohite. Personally, I leave it up to not the GM's to decide, but the PC's. It's questions like these that keep the angels guessing. Laurence and Khalid have been debating the merits of those two great religions for years. Never mind what the proponents of less popular faiths have to put up with. (Mind you, I refer to them as less popular in the In Nomine mileu, not the world in which I live.) -Jayson _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:26:05 PDT From: "Tom Swenson" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Character sheet idea >Jayson Howell wrote: >> >> I've done it, I'm still working on it. >> >> For a preliminary look at what's going on, my site is >> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/6475/ >> >> I've got the sheets for the Angels up, the Demons are being worked on, >> slated for completion at the end of this week. I've also sheets for >> Soldiers (of each side), Saints, and working on Sorcerers. > > Pretty cool! One nit, Seraphim should be listed as >Seraph on the page of character sheet links. Plus, the >image for the generic infernal sheet should probably be >an upside-down cross for consistency. > Now if you could just add the pre-determined >choir/band/etc stuff, they would be nearly perfect. > ;) > >-- YES! I was looking at them just now... well downloading them nice job and oh, yea, the attunement info would be more then welcome 'When you set a fire upwind do not attack downwind' --Sun Tzu tom ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:34:40 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Death & the Higher Heavens Earl Wajenberg wrote: > >Do you suppose there are rumors or speculations circulating >among celestials that, if you get soul-killed, you reappear >in the Higher Heavens, and so "go to heaven" like a human, >only one octave higher up? > >Do demons fear such an ascent (since the welcome would >probably not be warm)? Or do they have mirror-myths of >descent into a deeper Hell? (Given that even most demons >don't like most of Hell, would that be any better?) > >At least it is common celestial knowledge that the Higher >Heavens exist. And this gives an opening for encounters >with the likes of Raphael and Metatron (and, of course, >Uriel) some day. In my own game, I wanted to push the notion of real immortality as far as I could, to see what would result in a game without death. (One of the quotes from the game was pretty neat: "Don't worry about dying -- if it's for a good cause your archangel will just let you come back.") Among angels, it is received wisdom that the soul is something distinct from the Forces that are attached to it. An angel without Corporeal Forces cannot manifest on Earth, and an angel without Celestial Forces cannot ascend to Heaven or be affected by celestial powers, but is still nonetheless a fully ensouled being. (The books are silent on whether or not a creature with no Ethereal Forces can appear in the Marches, but for consistency IMC I ruled not.) So a being that has lost all its Forces is one that cannot interact with any aspect of Creation in any way, but is nonetheless still real. Forces, in this model, are not the components of being but rather the glue that connects the essential self to the rest of reality. Neither archangel nor demon prince has the power to damage or destroy a soul, period. It's beyond the power of any but God, and it's seems unlikely He will unmake what He has taken the trouble to create. Many of Dominic and Laurence's servitors believe that the Lord will restore the Forces of the Force-stripped once the Day of Judgment is come, in a process analgous to bodily resurrection for humans. Demonic beliefs vary a lot. There are various nihilistic sects (especially popular among servitors of Kronos and Valefor) that proclaim that the loss of Forces is the loss of existence, and that in the end the void shall have them all. Others, like Baal and his servitors, take heart in their immortality and use it to argue that they can fight forever against the Lord, if need be. It's really a matter of what reasons the demon has drawn into itself to justify its rebellion against God. One idea I've considered for my game is to lift a bit from Revelations and make the Pit the name of the lowest section of Hell, where demons banished from Earth by the angels or holy men are imprisoned until the Day of Judgment. (This is inspired by the idea that Michael will seal the dragon into the pit for the millenium, until they are let out to be judged by God.) Most likely I would use this is a demonic campaign, to give demons that extra dose of fear of angels. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:42:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Marches mechanics > The marches as far as I've interpreted them is a catch-all setting to > really let the imagination go. Whatever you decide on as far as mechanics > are concerned should probably be kept consistent, but on the other hand do > dreams ever really follow a standard set of rules? The dream realm is an > area even most Celestials don't quite get with a few notable exceptions( > ie/Balndine and Yves). I would attribute this to the fact that Angels > didn't have a powerful role in creating it. . . humanity did. I've always seen the Marches which are controlled by the Celestials and inhabited by humanity's dreams as a small sliver of what really exists out there. The Far Marches are immense, beyond the wildest ken of the celestial realms, and not even the bravest of the brave venture out too far. I have three bodies of Things out there, the Cult of Uriel, the Crossways and the Things that Nibble. I've posted one of the three in toto. These two are just little summaries. The Crossways are a point in which all worlds meet way out in the Far Marches. It appears as a large group of black flat roads extending out from one point to eternity. They begin as one road that the celestial walks across a featureless landscape that meets the others in an equally featureless landscape. There are no animals, no creatures, no souls in sight. A being on the crossways will not meet anyone until they enter a more 'conventional' bit of the Far Marches. The idea here is to provide a vehicle to allow (gasp) cross genre campaigns, if you are into that sort of thing. (Em dodges Beth as she gets the 'but you hate the cross genre thing!' talk. :) ) The Things that Nibble are a relatively new creation of mine, a cross between the Langoliers from Stephen King's FOUR PAST MIDNIGHT and the Earth Summoning "Things that Creep and Nibble" from Nephilim. The idea is to create a horde of small black featureless creatures who feed on the celestial realms - namely essence - and devour everything in their path. They come out of the Far Marches. Normally, the Things that Nibble never encounter any more then the small amount of ethereals who dwell out there, and consume them at an alarming rate. But when something devistating in the Marches happens, they get attracted to the essence expenditure like moths to a flame, and Heaven is just a juicy tidbit... So anyway. The Marches are fun. A good place to play around. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:55:29 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Marches mechanics At 12:55 AM -0400 7/23/98, Sheep Boy wrote: >Random Celestial in the Marches: They can tool around the Marches, wander >to Blandine's side, Beleth's side, whatever, and they can see human >dreamscapes, maybe even look inside, but can't _do_ anything to them >without special abilities, right? Yah. >Okay, random Celestial with Dream Walking. So they can go into someone's >dreamscape if they've met them before. Here's where I get a little >confused. Does the phrase "entering the Marches through the mind of a >human dreamer" mean that the Celestial uses Dream Walking, falls asleep, >and appears in the Marches in the human's dreamscape? That's how I intrepret it. >Or does the >Celestial instead fall asleep, appear in the Marches somewhere, find the >target's dreamscape (?), and then use the attunement to enter? They can use the attunement, I would think, to wander the Marches and enter J. Random Dreamscape, too. (It doesn't say they can, but heck, I'd let 'em.) >What about >this bonus for physically touching? I assume that means in the Corporeal >plane, so does the Celestial have to fall asleep while touching the human? Yes. >Okay, Songs of Dream. Answering the above will I guess answer any >questions about the Corporeal. Does the Etheral version necessitate the >performer being in the target's dreamscape for the song to be useful? Yes. Note that "successful resistance ejects the intruder from the dreamscape". >it says the performer must already be in the target's dreamscape, so am I >correct in assuming the Celestial Song of Dreams does NOT convey the >ability to enter dreamscapes? Yup. Need Corporeal Dreams or Dream Walking for that. >a) Random Celestial decides to fall asleep while on the Corporeal plane. >Falls asleep, vessel sleeps, consciousness enters the Marches. Great. >Wanders the Marches, encounters a dreamscape. How does he know whose >dreamscape it is (i.e., how can he know if Dream Walking will help him if >he doesn't know if he's met the dreamer before or not)? If he has Dream Walking, I'd probably let him pop into any dreamscape he was "touching" in the Marches. Or view the dreams within long enough to "know" the person. >b) Random Celestial meets Random Human. He thinks "Gee, I'd like to futz >with RH's dreams." RH goes to sleep. How does RC go about entering RH's >dreamscape? He waits till RH is asleep, uses Corporeal Dreams or Dream Walking to Will himself into the dreamscape. Or so I'd say. (Check out Maya's Fiat page -- there are a couple of Dream-Servitors wandering around, and she handles it elegantly. http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~maya/nomine/fiat.html) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:57:44 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Messing with Habbalite Minds >From: Nana Yaw Ofori >"Hell has its share of Fallen Angels. There are Fallen Mercurians, Fallen >Cherubim, Fallen Kyriotates, Fallen Seraphim and Ofanim. There's probably a >Fallen Bright Lilim or two hanging around somewhere. There aren't any >Fallen Malakim, of course. Malakim, like Habbalah, don't fall. But what >about Elohim? Where are all the Fallen Elohim?" I know a number of people have already replied to this, but the way I see it, every Habbalite's delusion is unique in some way. Here's a conversation excerpt from a Habbalite, probably working Kronos, and another demon asking the above question: Habbalite: Cosmologically speaking, we HAVE Fallen. Our connection to the greater Symphony has been severed, and hase been replaced by our own internal rhythm. While we still serve God, this spritual scarification was necessary for us to exist among demons. Think of the scarification rituals of Amazon tribes. They mutilate their bodies to prove their stength and devotion. We go a step further: we mutilate our SOULS to prove he have the strength and courage to serve God as He needs us. The scars upon our celestial forms are trivial in comparison to the internal scars we bear. Our outer scars are to remind you who we truly serve. Inquiring Demon: But why only the Elohim? Why are there no Ofanim or Seraphim who share your de-... beliefs? H: It is the nature of our Choir. All demons have a fragment of their angelic nature still in them. Balseraphs, for example, never believe they're lying, and Impudites are still social creatures. The fragment of our objectivity allows us see our true place, our true role in the Symphony. Indeed, half the purpose of the Elohim's objectivity was this; we Habbalah were planned for from the start. Our awareness of our role allows God to use us as his inside agents in the rebellion. ID: But Elohim don't choose to change jobs and become Habbalah-- H: Not CONSCIOUSLY. ID: Well, as I was saying, what about the process of Falling? And what if an Elohite chose to rebel for some reason? H: Elohim don't really Fall; they just get reassigned. If they chafe under the dissonance of their Choir and Archangel, they clearly aren't suited for their post. As I said, God planned for this. As an Elohite gains dissonance, he gradually sees the value of unrestrained passion, how potent a weapon it is. When he Falls, he is freed from his old contraints, and his nature is realigned to is new task. God takes advantage of the natural process of dissonance to choose his Punishers. Those who are too weak for the job, he either allows them to be found buy Dominic's inquisition, or... WE deal with. ID: (gulp) "Deal with"? H: I met a newly Fallen Elohite once who refused to believe in his new purpose. During his ritual scarring, we didn't stop at the skin. ID: Ew... So, If you're supposed to be God's double agents, why do you proclaim your beliefs so loudly? H: (smiles slightly, and slowly widens to a grin) That's easy... If we skulked around and kept it secret, and our Princes found out, they might believe it. Instead, we just let you think we're all mad. ID: (shudders) Um, I have to go now... H: (after the other demon leave) That was fun. Didn't even need to use my resonance... You can do anything thou wilt, at Aleister's Restaurant. Dan Maberry, UberPope ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:12:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Jayson Howell Subject: Re: IN> Marches mechanics - ---Elizabeth McCoy wrote: [SNIPPED A BIT] (It happens.) > >Or does the > >Celestial instead fall asleep, appear in the Marches somewhere, find the > >target's dreamscape (?), and then use the attunement to enter? > > They can use the attunement, I would think, to wander the Marches > and enter J. Random Dreamscape, too. (It doesn't say they can, but > heck, I'd let 'em.) If the angel were in the Ethereal already, I'd rule that he/she is already "asleep", although no vessel is lying dormant in the corporeal realm. (That covers both this attunement, and anything else that relies on "sleeping" characters.) -Jayson _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:16:08 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> So long for now... Well, summer classes are over, which means the computer lab at my college will be closed until the fall term starts, and not having any net access from home, I won't be able to participate in this listserv until then. I'll try to keep up with the digest archives, but I won't be able to rejoin until I can get regular net access again. It's been fun while it lasted, though, and hopefully the wait won't be too long... Eat your cereal with a fork, and do your homework in the dark. Dan Maberry, UberPope ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 18:08:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> Tether net-book (Re: Tether Sourcebook) - ---Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > (Yeesh, some of you folks are paranoid. What, you think we're > going to send a triad around if you do a net-book version of > something I'm working on? Well, I might send an Elohite around > to make BigSadEyes at you if you said you weren't going to buy > the one I worked my fingers to the bone on, typing and editing > and squinting at the screen, yea by candlelight even, and making > the edits with a quill nib in my own blood...) Wouldn't it work better having a Mercurian make BigSadEyes at us? :) Just let us know when it's up for playtesting, and I'll definitely buy the Tether book, Elizabeth...fear not! ...and I'm most assuredly buying Fall of the Malakim! Graveyard Greg The Reliquary: http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/everquest/46/ _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:27:21 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Acting Dissonant -- Why celestials don't >>>This isn't entirely true, and I'd assume almost universally untrue in the case of Seraphim of the Wind.<<< [With standard "Do What You Want In Your Own Campaign, Yadda Yadda Yadda disclaimer...] Yes, it is true. Non-dissonant Seraphim don't actively try to think of ways to circumvent their dissonance conditions unless it's extremely necessary, or else they are actively trying to go as far as they can in acting against their own natures. That's like trying to bend your joints in a direction they don't naturally go, seeing how far they can bend without actually breaking. That's painful, and most people don't make a habit of it unless they're masochists, and people who do make a habit of it are quite likely to break something eventually. Seraphim of the Wind aren't trying to circumvent their dissonance conditions, they're trying to tell the truth without revealing what they don't want to reveal, or without telling the subject what he really wants to know. It is a subtle distinction (like the distinction between Fast-Talk and Lying), but a significant one. And yes, many other Seraphim probably are made uncomfortable by Seraphim of the Wind....but then, lots of angels are made uncomfortable by Servitors of Janus. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:31:36 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Impudite stuff >>God, you just described a former girlfriend.<<< I think she just described a lot of former girlfriends. ;) - -David (insert mandatory PC "And boyfriends too" disclaimer) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:44:43 +0200 (MET DST) From: Jasper Reijer Floor Subject: Re: IN> Acting Dissonant -- Why celestials don't On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, David Edelstein wrote: > disclaimer...] > > Yes, it is true. Non-dissonant Seraphim don't actively try to think of ways > to circumvent their dissonance conditions unless it's extremely necessary, > or else they are actively trying to go as far as they can in acting against > Seraphim of the Wind aren't trying to circumvent their dissonance > conditions, they're trying to tell the truth without revealing what they > don't want to reveal, or without telling the subject what he really wants > to know. It is a subtle distinction (like the distinction between Fast-Talk Its a bit of problem telling the truth when you aren't supposed to let the mortals know that you are an angel. I'd say that anyone actively trying to circumvent their nature is on the wrong track (TIMBER), but if they are put in a situation where they have to be.. creative, wel then they either have to be creative or take that plunge into eternal darkness. Also I think attitude matters. If you don't feel its against you nature (if your character has a certain philosophy, which he consistently follows) and the actions fall within the limits opposed by the rules, well then ok. However if you do believe there is something wrong, you are being dissonant. This is true for any angel. Cherubs believe they have to protect their charges. Some cherubs thinks this means hogtieing the vulnerable little mortal, putting him in your trunk, driving to the dessert and leaving him in an underground fully self sufficient shelter under 20 feet of dirt. Others might believe that this might (mind you I said might) be considered harmful, from a certain point of view. > and Lying), but a significant one. And yes, many other Seraphim probably > are made uncomfortable by Seraphim of the Wind....but then, lots of angels > are made uncomfortable by Servitors of Janus. in my game: Mercurian of Janus: I enter the house. Me: You open the door and go inside. Other PC: I follow him. Me: Can't the door is locked. or, (Other angels busy planning elaborate strategies) Merc: I enter the church and go talk to the priest. (Other angels look on in stunned disbelief) mvg, Jasper Floor Can we ever have too much of a good thing? Miguel de Cervantes -Don Quixote Chap. vi ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:24:08 +0200 (MET DST) From: Jasper Reijer Floor Subject: Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, E Kumar wrote: > There is definately a Christian/Catholic overtone to the game, I mean it > does revolve around celestial Angel and Demons after all, but let's face > it, the world is a lot larger than western society. So what's the > celestial stance on a place like India? There is a vast pantheon of > of his creation, the world doesn't stop on the borders of Islam. Africa, > India, China, The South Pacific Islands, and the Indonesian countries are > all places that don't necessarily worship pagan or heathenistic > "pantheons". They just have a different cultural attitude towards what > they consider Angels! Hey, this game was made by christians, whadya expect? There is actually nothing wrong with other religions, as such, in fact they certainly have many good aspects which you might say that christianity or Islam lack. The point is, these things are ok, and if you know enough about them to incorporate them in your game, go ahead. Its just that this game was made by people who probably have a better understanding of their own culture/religion that probably being based on christainity of one form or another, it was made for similar people, this makes it alot easier to make it so that the world works in a way that they intuitively believe anyway. I myself have not been brought up to believe in a god, nor have my parents, but I am still biased by my culture. I learn from what I experience, and base my own beliefs on that. While I can learn other ways of thinking, other beliefs (and I am indeed interested in that) I start with what I'm given, and work from that. That's what you have to do with this game as well. If you say, well I think I want more of a hindu nature to this game, its your call. Unfortunately it does mean you have to do alot work in reinterpreting the rules, or changing them when you don't believe that they are right, but that is problem with this game anyway ;) actually the only two games without that problem I have seen are Dungeoneer and Paranoia (Dungeoneer: Much to simple and unrealistic for anybody who wants to play it complain, if they do tell them to go play GURPS, Paranoia: What rules, citizen? what is your security clearance? You have been cleared for high energy radiation therapy, have a nice day.) mvg, Jasper Floor Can we ever have too much of a good thing? Miguel de Cervantes -Don Quixote Chap. vi ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:31:16 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #863 On Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 03:50:43PM -0400, Adam Canning wrote: > Message text written by INTERNET:in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > >Actually, though the Kaaba is a big stone, it is more likely a Tether to > Faith. > < > > Or Factions > Cynical as I am, I think it's more likely to be a Tether of Faith. The only war that I can recall being fought over it was the one fought by Mohamed, and since then it's been the focus of worship for hundreds of millions. I'd be more inclined to place Tethers of Factions in the Vatican. After all, the Papacy was controlled by Roman gangsters for centuries. (The Vatican must be filled with Tethers of all descriptions. Someone with a good knowledge of the area should do it up.) Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:44:21 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- IN: mishmash (and its a whopper so, er, sorry) On Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 07:43:21PM -0400, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > (And a Gamester might only take 1 dissonance for not turning themselves > in. Plus 1 if they're disobeying Asmodeus' orders.) > I'd forgotten the dissonance for not turning themselves in. Even though my other .sig was all about the fact that that was what the SRs in Russia were finally done for. > Of course, an Asmodean with a Heart can expect his Boss to find him > in a month or so. Which will make that sticky Renegade dissonance > kind of moot. > But it helps the pursuers so much, especially if it's one of those annoying high-willed Habbalah or Calabim. Harass them periodically with orders to go to their Heart immediately, and then when you finally spring the trap, do it again. As the dissonance prevents them using their resonance for a few hours, you have a clear field, and they'll be used to the orders and won't expect it. The Song of Celestial Tongues is good for this, though it has the drawback of giving them Essence. Of course they can purge some dissonance in the meantime by turning in other Renegades... > I think it might depend... A Shedite wouldn't be able to > 'drop into a vessel' (unless it was a Shedite of Vapula?) A Kyrio > who got into celestial combat and somehow retained hold of a host, > though... That could be interesting. > My personal interpretation was that they got booted to the Marches, since they couldn't go to the Celestial plane. I've just realised that this is completely contradicted by the canon on Limbo. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:29:38 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting Jasper Reijer Floor wrote: > > On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, E Kumar wrote: > > > There is definately a Christian/Catholic overtone to the game, > > Hey, this game was made by christians, whadya expect? Um. "In Nomine" proper was written by Derek Pearcy, who indicated in a bio blurb somewhere that he was raised Catholic (or perhaps Episcopalian), but I have not seen a profession of his current faith. The same applies to the French author of "Magna Veritas" and "In Nomine Satanis," the inspiration for IN. On the other hand, these folk are certainly from cultures of what used to be called "Christendom." And the central game concept is "angels and demons in the modern world," "angels and demons" automatically hooking the game to Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, just as surely as (or even more surely than) a game about nymphs and satyrs in the modern world would hook itself to the Greek pantheon. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:28:01 +0200 (MET DST) From: Jasper Reijer Floor Subject: Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Jasper Reijer Floor wrote: > > > > On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, E Kumar wrote: > > > > > There is definately a Christian/Catholic overtone to the game, > > > > Hey, this game was made by christians, whadya expect? > > Um. "In Nomine" proper was written by Derek Pearcy, who > indicated in a bio blurb somewhere that he was raised Catholic > (or perhaps Episcopalian), but I have not seen a profession > of his current faith. The same applies to the French author > of "Magna Veritas" and "In Nomine Satanis," the inspiration for IN. Ok, I may be guilty of making unwarranted conclusions. The point is the game was made by people who have been strongly influenced by christian culture. I have nothing against christians or anyone of any other faith. I was just trying to make a point, which I believe is still valid, even if the game had been made by (ex)budhists. mvg, Jasper Floor Stone walls do not a prison make,| Nor iron bars a cage; Minds innocent and quiet take | That for an hermitage; If I have freedom in my love, | And in my soul am free, Angels alone that soar above | Enjoy such liberty. Richard Lovelace - To Althea from Prison iv ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 07:35:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Jayson Howell Subject: Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting I disagree wholly. I'd say SJGamers have a wider range of religious knowledge than a lot of groups. The problem is that religion is by definition an explanation for the unknown. In this game, Heaven and Hell are not "what ifs". They are hard and fast realities. The game had to pick some sort of impirical rule to determine a hard and fast reality for this world. The very questions that have plagued man for centuries had to be given a concrete answer, and something had to be chosen. Period. It's not about ignorance, bias, or comfort. It's about playability. This game is a huge "what if western religion is RIGHT?". Not "What if western religion is all we can figure out?" There's no reason not to make a game biased towards eastern beliefs, but this doesn't happen to be it. In spite of this fact, a lot of hard working writers and gamers have managed to find a sympathetic place in this cosmology for other religions. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are all given equal credence. Pagan religions are not declared wrong, rather they are declared to be separate and removed from a western god's world view. Ideas about fates, destinies, free will, reincarnation, Heaven, Hell, all have found a niche around that basic premise. Admittedly, I'm impressed it's not MORE biased. How comfortable and easy it would have been to rely on biblical sources and call all other concepts heretical. In short, I think you're selling the staff short. Ignorance is never a motivational factor, look at the bibliographies of these things. There's so much research going on it's not even funny. -Jayson - ---Jasper Reijer Floor wrote: > > > On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, E Kumar wrote: > > > There is definately a Christian/Catholic overtone to the game, I mean it > > does revolve around celestial Angel and Demons after all, but let's face > > it, the world is a lot larger than western society. So what's the > > celestial stance on a place like India? There is a vast pantheon of > > > of his creation, the world doesn't stop on the borders of Islam. Africa, > > India, China, The South Pacific Islands, and the Indonesian countries are > > all places that don't necessarily worship pagan or heathenistic > > "pantheons". They just have a different cultural attitude towards what > > they consider Angels! > > Hey, this game was made by christians, whadya expect? There is actually > nothing wrong with other religions, as such, in fact they certainly have > many good aspects which you might say that christianity or Islam lack. The > point is, these things are ok, and if you know enough about them to > incorporate them in your game, go ahead. Its just that this game was made > by people who probably have a better understanding of their own > culture/religion that probably being based on christainity of one form or > another, it was made for similar people, this makes it alot easier to make > it so that the world works in a way that they intuitively believe anyway. > I myself have not been brought up to believe in a god, nor have my > parents, but I am still biased by my culture. I learn from what I > experience, and base my own beliefs on that. While I can learn other ways > of thinking, other beliefs (and I am indeed interested in that) I start > with what I'm given, and work from that. That's what you have to do with > this game as well. If you say, well I think I want more of a hindu nature > to this game, its your call. Unfortunately it does mean you have to do > alot work in reinterpreting the rules, or changing them when you don't > believe that they are right, but that is problem with this game anyway ;) > actually the only two games without that problem I have seen are > Dungeoneer and Paranoia (Dungeoneer: Much to simple and unrealistic for > anybody who wants to play it complain, if they do tell them to go play > GURPS, Paranoia: What rules, citizen? what is your security clearance? You > have been cleared for high energy radiation therapy, have a nice day.) > > mvg, > Jasper Floor > > Can we ever have too much of a good thing? > Miguel de Cervantes -Don Quixote Chap. vi > > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #873 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.