From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Jul 27 11:39:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA19603 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:39:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id LAA15347 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:17:59 -0500 Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:17:59 -0500 Message-Id: <199807271617.LAA15347@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #876 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, July 27 1998 Volume 01 : Number 876 In this digest: Re: IN> Books and Movies Re: IN> Next Re: IN> IN:london (3) IN> Band Variant: The AXANIM [Experimental] Re: IN> Next IN> Valefor and Yves IN> Lucifers Great Big Lie Re: IN> Band Variant: The AXANIM [Experimental] Re: IN> Books and Movies Re: IN> Valefor and Yves IN> Re: British Library Re: IN> Band Variant: The AXANIM [Experimental] Re: IN> Books and Movies Re: IN> Band Variant: The AXANIM [Experimental] Re: IN> Valefor and Yves IN> IN- Band Variant: The AXANIM [Experimental] Re: IN> Impudites and Mercurians (Re: Word-Bound Servitors of David) Re: IN> Valefor and Yves Re: IN> IN Soundtrack Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting IN> Sure-fire celestial detector? Re: IN> Sure-fire celestial detector? Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting Re: IN> Sure-fire celestial detector? Re: IN> Valefor and Yves Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 18:08:40 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Books and Movies On Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 02:00:47PM -0500, Eeyore wrote: > > So I'm just wondering, has anyone else seen a movie or read a book and > > then thought something like, oh yeah, this character was *obviously* a > > Cherub of Eli trying to guard this other character from that > > Balseraph... > As I've said before, Angus Thermopyle from Stephen Donaldson's Gap Series is the archetypal Djinn of Fire. The series begins with him capturing a young cop named Morn Hyland (clearly a Cherub), and becoming obsessed with her in that lovable Djinn way. As for the other characters, Warden Dios looks very much like what a Demon Prince of Guilt would be like, and Holt Fasner is an obvious Lucifer figure. Min Donner _is_ Zadkiel, and Hashi Lebwohl is like a weird mix of Jean and Asmodeus. (I figure him for a dissonant Elohite. One of my favourite quotes from him was "A pox on these emotional people!".) Koina Hannish is a Mercurian, and Godsen Frik is a Balseraph. There are lots of other characters who can be assigned Choir/Band tags, and at times I think they're a majority of the characters in the book, but special mention must go to Deaner Beckmann, whose Vapula-like nature is shown by his desire to save humankind by altering them so that they can pass through black holes. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 10:56:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> Next - ---The Bard wrote: > > All I have is the Main rule book. In Ya'lls oppion what books should I get next and > why. > > > I like Night Music, as the setting for Austin, Texas kicks a$$! Then there is the Liber Reliquarum...VERY good book!! Graveyard Greg _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 18:59:00 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> IN:london (3) At 09:14 26/07/98 PDT, you wrote: >London continues... > >The British Library: (A Tether to Destiny) > >"It's a Wordy Rappinghood" (Tom Tom Club) > The british library is actually split between several sites. I think it is only the artsy side which was ever located in the bit that everyone knows about, there is also a huge scientific reference library at least a mile away in a poky little 6 storey building near Aldwych. (Its particularly good on history of science, but its not really the best scientific library in London -- that'd be spread between all the colleges of the University, the various engineering institutions, the royal academy and the science museum...) I'm also told that they lose about 30% of the collection every time they move (or at least they realise that 30% got lost since the last time anyone did a full catalogue), but that might just be a librarian urban myth :) jo http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jul 98 14:25:47 -0500 From: David Wood Subject: IN> Band Variant: The AXANIM [Experimental] Yeah, I was one of them once. So what's your point? I'm in Hell now, and that's the only important thing. Oh, watch out for that table... oh, I bet that'll leave a mark. Only I didn't fall like all those others. I used to be an Ofanite, always rushing about and never getting much of anything done. What a pathetic excuse for an existance. I stayed still too long, or I pissed off the boss-man, never you mind which one that was, and the Symphony decided to cut me loose. Couldn't have happened soon enough, if you ask me. Oh, the lamp-- well, don't worry, you have another just like it. Most Ofanim, when they come down here, they internalize all that motion and nervous energy and become Calabim. I've met some of 'em, and I don't envy them one bit. All that entropy cooking away inside them, if they didn't let it out every so often they'd probably explode. Look out -- well, that solves your lamp problem. That's where I come in. Me, when I Fell, I wanted nothing to do with all that whirling, whinging energy flying all over the place. I just wanted to sit back, take it slow and easy, think through what I do, and establish myself. After all, I've got all Eternity to build up whatever power base I want, and frankly I don't need much. But a Celestial can never truly divorce himself from his Celestial nature. Ofanim travel so very fast because that's what they are. Calabim excel at destruction because that's what they do with their energy. Speaking of energy -- ouch, and that was your great grandmother's china cabinet? And china? Shame on you. And Me, as an Axanite? I don't use that energy at all if I can help it. Slow and steady wins the race, as they say. In fact, it really pains me to do so. The same kind of pain Ofanim get when they stop and Calabim when they use their resonance on themselves. I just stay here in the middle of it all. My resonance, like theirs, is with motion, but unlike them I can divorce myself from it completely. That's why I can sit here and calmly write my memoirs while you, well, you're receiving the full benefit of my resonance. Only you're nowhere near as good at controlling it, so you're practically bouncing off the walls. And leaving bloody smears, I might add. There goes your security deposit. Now, it's not like I need much. Just someone to do the occasional little job for me. I'm a demon, after all, and the Symphony rings when I interfere just as much as the next Celestial. And you're going to help me. Once the bruises heal. No no no, take your time deciding. You make a fine pitcher of lemonade, and I could watch you jumping around all night... ========== The Axanim (the "The Axles," though also the Poltergeists or the Storms when the get up and running, so to speak), like Fallen Ofanim, resonate with motion. But rather than move themselves, they're sick of running around like fools, choosing instead to rest at the heart of their personal maelstrom and watch everything around them grind each other to dust. They were inspired by the Ha-Satanim, the Balseraph variant, and take the notion of Celestial selfishness in a whole new vein. I don't have much in the way of mechanics for them yet, but what they can do is concentrate for a moment on something and imbue it with velocity. If it's small, great velocity. Axanim don't bother with guns because they tend not to need them. There are so few of them because they tend to be just as lazy as Calabim *seem* to be. They have little drive, and are content to just stay in one place if they get the opportunity. Things need to keep moving around them, either on their own or by the Axanim resonance. Sitting around in a place where nothing is happening is Dissonant for them. It's also Dissonant for them to use their Resonance on themselves -- their resonance will work until they stop using it on themselves, after which they make the Dissonance check. Axanim are the sorts who will just people-watch in busy places (malls, dance clubs, etc.) looking for opportunities to make people move faster. In this way, they do serve the purposes of some Demon Princes, but not always. This is all just suggestion and speculation, and I suppose I'll have to take a look at the Ha-Satanim again just to see how they're set up. Questions? Comments? Suggestions? Fish? - --David http://home.bluecrab.org/~dwood "We use only the finest baby frogs, dew picked and flown from Iraq, cleansed in finest quality spring water, lightly killed, and then sealed in a succulent Swiss quintuple smooth treble cream milk chocolate envelope and lovingly frosted with glucose." -Monty Python, episode 6 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 12:41:00 -0700 From: "E Kumar" Subject: Re: IN> Next Hmm, I would say in priority: Screen Angels Guide Heaven and Hell Infernal Guide Marches Night Music Liber Reliquarium ( For a Celestial campaign anyway- for infernal, maybe switch Infernal guide with Angels guide. Also If any of the books has a key superior for your group pick it up. ) - ---------- > From: The Bard > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: IN> Next > Date: Saturday, July 25, 1998 9:19 PM > > All I have is the Main rule book. In Ya'lls oppion what books should I get next and > why. > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 16:17:46 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Valefor and Yves Message text written by INTERNET:in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Based on that information, she could only conclude that there was no way Valefor could have stole anything from Yves' Library (well, that plus the statements on pg. 69 about how it is essentially impossible to steal from the Library). At least, not without Yves *knowing* about it. And if Yves knew, why did he allow the book to be stolen? Her theory is that Yves allowed the book to be stolen, as part of Valefor's Destiny. Perhaps he was a dissatified and discordant Word-bound Servitor of Change, who *thought* he was being slick when he stole the book preparatory to Falling. Perhaps he was part of an elaborate plan by Janus and Yves to plant a double agent in Hell. But somehow, in some way, stealing that book must have been allowed by Yves in order to allow Valefor to pursue his Destiny. Or are we insane? < Previous discussion on the list has brought up the information the Janus used to work for the Archangel of confusion and has a resonance that enables him to pretend to be a demon. Since recieving this resonance he has worked his way up both sides hierachy and ie Archangel of Wind and in his disguise [Where hs calls himself Valefor] , Demon Prince of Theft. The Amercian Version does not state this explicitly but you will notice the similarities in Resonances and such like for these two. Adam ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 13:25:30 -0700 From: "E Kumar" Subject: IN> Lucifers Great Big Lie I don't know if this has been discussed before but this is my spin on the current "War". Lucifer is a Balseraph with immense power. Before the fall he managed to convince many Angels and Archangels of his plot to overthrow god and they believed him( because as far as the Liars resonance goes it doesn't get any more powerful than his.)! He than managed to use his immense power and even got God to believe that his spin on the Symphony was a viable one. God, being the Symphony, became tainted with Lucifers personal symphony and hence it created a parallel paradigm to heaven called Hell. Everybeing in creation, being a part of God, has also been tainted with Lucifers false symphony, which creates dissonant behavour in Angels and "immoral" or evil acts within humans; all which feed Lucifers Lie. Angels, also being a part of God( who has been duped) believe that they're fighting a "War" when all they're really doing is buying into Gods confusion. That's the overall premise I work with within the game. Now how does this affect the choirs and bands? Well . . . Maybe that's why The Habbalah are the way they are. They're objectivity had at some point subconsciously showed them the situation and they're right. They still do serve god!( Of course they don't yet get the fact that is no war persay ) The Seraphim don't want to admit it, and the Balseraphs keep lying to themselves. When Calabim connect to areas of God which are tainted or confused they fall and (the now Djinn) fears reconnecting to the true order of things; hence the apathetic behaviour. The Offanim encounter moments of hestitation and feed Gods confusion when they act dissonantly. They, as Calabim, are a representation of the way God has gone internal to search for the areas that " aren't working right". The Kyriotates are multilple aspects of the symphony and when they lose touch of the pure notes and get stuck in the false, notes planted by Lucifer, their demeanor represents it. The Mercurians upon attaching themselves to areas which manifest in the symphony with false notes and "bad" essence, become Impudites. The Lilim really are a neutral faction who can be affected by the nature of their geases. The Grigori are the key to removing the confusion caused by Lucifers Lie. They were removed and are apart from the deception and so will play a great role in the final battle. In summary, a lie as we know is a false statement or untruth. So if Lucifers personal symphony is just that, then after Armageddon, should everyone sort of open their eyes amid the carnage and confusion, they'll say " What are we fighting over anyways?" Isn't that the nature of War. Akira- God is a circle in which the diameter is nowhere and the center is everywhere. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 14:04:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> Band Variant: The AXANIM [Experimental] - ---David Wood wrote: > > ========== > The Axanim (the "The Axles," though also the Poltergeists or the Storms > when the get up and running, so to speak), like Fallen Ofanim, resonate > with motion. But rather than move themselves, they're sick of running > around like fools, choosing instead to rest at the heart of their > personal maelstrom and watch everything around them grind each other to > dust. > Verrrrrrry cool... > They were inspired by the Ha-Satanim, the Balseraph variant, and take the > notion of Celestial selfishness in a whole new vein. See what you've done Richard Gant! :) Although I don't think "variations" of Falling would ever be canon, it's still something to toy with... Makes one wonder what a variant of the Cherubim would be...Making people obsessed with an object or person? Hmmmmm Graveyard Greg _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 23:22:30 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Books and Movies On Sun, 26 Jul 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > As I've said before, Angus Thermopyle from Stephen Donaldson's Gap Series > is the archetypal Djinn of Fire. The series begins with him capturing a > young cop named Morn Hyland (clearly a Cherub), and becoming obsessed with > her in that lovable Djinn way. After reading the Gap Series, and also Stephan Grundy's version of the Sigfrid saga, I got the tip to compare the two, and the parallells are pretty obvious when you look for them. Holt Fasner, who's even called the Dragon and Fafnir; Warden Dios with one eye and Odin; Hashi Lebwol with his constant motion and Loki (who was descended from fire-giants). I've heard that the Ambioni (if that's what they were called; the aliens anyway) were inspired by the dwarfs of Norse myth. To get this back on track, more or less: IMO, you can fit nearly any character in any novel or movie to some Angel or Demon in IN, simply because there are so many to choose from, and because many of them are quite archetypal, in a way. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 17:23:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Valefor and Yves On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > Based on that information, she could only conclude that there was no way > Valefor could have stole anything from Yves' Library (well, that plus the > statements on pg. 69 about how it is essentially impossible to steal from > the Library). At least, not without Yves *knowing* about it. And if Yves > knew, why did he allow the book to be stolen? This isn't a very popular take on things, but I think Janus and Valefor are two different people. Valefor impersonated Janus as part of a weird plan to ruin Janus' reputation; he crafted his attunements thusly. And the part about how nothing can be done to Yves' library without Yves knowing about it and allowing it is written from a PC point of view! Remember that Superiors can do what PCs cannot. Valefor is the Prince of Theft...it must have been hard as hell, but he pulled it off under Yves nose. See, my players are always looking for those complex behind the scenes twists like yourself...so I love to mess with them by making everything very simple and straightforward, without telling them that. BTW, Dominic isn't a Balseraph in my game either. :) - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! ::: Official Martyr of X-Day! ::: Visit #subgenii on irc.sorcery.net - it's a beautiful place ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 20:54:28 +0100 From: Sandra Palmer Subject: IN> Re: British Library Nice write-up, but shouldn't there be a tether to Valefor somewhere in the Museum? After all, an awful lot of the stuff we did basically pinch. May have been for the better, but still ... James. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 17:58:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Sheep Boy Subject: Re: IN> Band Variant: The AXANIM [Experimental] On Sun, 26 Jul 1998, David Wood wrote: 8< snip >8 > ========== > The Axanim (the "The Axles," though also the Poltergeists or the Storms > when the get up and running, so to speak), like Fallen Ofanim, resonate > with motion. But rather than move themselves, they're sick of running > around like fools, choosing instead to rest at the heart of their > personal maelstrom and watch everything around them grind each other to > dust. 8< snip >8 I tend not to be one for "me too" posts, but just wanted to say I like this idea a lot. Great job! It gives me a lot of inspiration for interesting and atypical NPCs to further astound and confuse my players. :) For some reason I see these demons taking vessels like cats or, in a less urban setting, perhaps, livestock or something similar so they can enjoy a Corporeal life of laziness and near-immobility. Their unsuspecting host, however, would reap the consequences of these demons' resonance and have a generally crappy time of it. If you want to get an angelic party involved, they're trying to figure out why (and how) this poor human is being haunted. For more specific campaign-tailored flavor, the victim could be an important figure in the story, and the Axanite a plant for a reason. Nothing like unfamiliar resonances to keep the party guessing, right? :) Thanks, David. :) - Stavro stavro@interport.net http://www.users.interport.net/~stavro/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Everybody talks about apathy, but nobody does anything about it. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 19:39:22 -0500 From: "Phaelin" Subject: Re: IN> Books and Movies >I was just thinking... > >What books and movies, not obviously connected to Canon, nevertheless >make an interesting sort of sense when you look at them in the light of >the IN world and system? > Fallen is such a good example of a movie that is so close to IN that it's almost scary. Azazel, the demon in the movie, is a perfect example of a really clever Shedite if I ever saw one. I used the movie to "set the tone" for my player's first game of IN a few days ago. We watched the movie early and then started the game. They absolutely loved it. I highly reccommend it if you haven't already seen it. Phaelin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 01:37:17 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Band Variant: The AXANIM [Experimental] On Sun, 26 Jul 1998, Graveyard Greg wrote: > Verrrrrrry cool... Oh, I agree completely. I was actually disappointed that they didn't have a resonance written up yet (I'm still letting ideas perk, though). > > They were inspired by the Ha-Satanim, the Balseraph variant, and > > take the notion of Celestial selfishness in a whole new vein. > > See what you've done Richard Gant! :) Wow. I inspired something. I feel so proud... :) Of course, my idea for an alternative Fallen Ofanim involved a Resonance that could prevent others from moving (although I haven't written it up yet), but there must be all kinds of minor Bands out there. > Makes one wonder what a variant of the Cherubim would be...Making > people obsessed with an object or person? Hmmmmm I thought about giving them the ability to destroy other people's concern for others and making others not care any more. difficult to come up with a mechanic, though. Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant PS: Have you put up the Ha-satanim Resonance result table yet? - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting. In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to capture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment, or a company entire than to destroy them. -Sun Tzu - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 01:41:56 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Valefor and Yves On Sun, 26 Jul 1998, Pee Kitty wrote: > This isn't a very popular take on things, but I think Janus and Valefor > are two different people. Until now, I thought I was some sort of a freak on this mailing list, because that's my opinion as well. Nice to see that I've got allies. :) > And the part about how nothing can be done to Yves' library without Yves > knowing about it and allowing it is written from a PC point of view! > Remember that Superiors can do what PCs cannot. Valefor is the Prince of > Theft...it must have been hard as hell, but he pulled it off under Yves > nose. The problem is, I don't think that Valefor was the Prince of Theft at the time he did it. I may be wrong, but I think I remember reading somewhere that he didn't get his Word until after he arrived in Hell with the book. Without a Word, Valefor should have been as limited as any player character. (Of course, my whole point goes down the toilet if I'm wrong about what I remember...) > See, my players are always looking for those complex behind the scenes > twists like yourself...so I love to mess with them by making everything > very simple and straightforward, without telling them that. BTW, Dominic > isn't a Balseraph in my game either. :) Actually, that's what I do as well. Nothing confuses players more than telling them the truth. They just can't handle it. Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting. In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to capture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment, or a company entire than to destroy them. -Sun Tzu - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 22:39:23 PDT From: "Doug Muir" Subject: IN> IN- Band Variant: The AXANIM [Experimental] >> ========== >> The Axanim (the "The Axles," though also the Poltergeists or the Storms >> when the get up and running, so to speak), like Fallen Ofanim, resonate >> with motion. But rather than move themselves, they're sick of running >> around like fools, choosing instead to rest at the heart of their >> personal maelstrom and watch everything around them grind each other to >> dust. I *like* these guys. Some thoughts: 1) The main Axanim resonance is to make *other* things move, right? Okay, so they're basically never without a weapon. This makes them combat monsters rather like their Calabim brethren (though somewhat less inherently aggressive). 2) Game mechanics of Axanim attacks can be left up to the individual GMs. Small objects could be treated like a derringer, perhaps; larger ones like a club. Creative GMs should be able to think of all sorts of nasty uses of this resonance ("Okay, no problem. I surrender." The demon in human form raises his hands in the air. The angels pause, nonplussed. Fifty yards behind them, a car begins to roll forward, slowly at first, then faster...) 3) More sophisticated use of Resonance: let the Axanim use its resonance on *people*, with a difficulty of -2. A victim gets a will roll to resist. If he fails, the Axle has "sped him up", making his movements hyper-jittery -- speedy, but uncontrolled. For one hour, the victim temporarily loses Agility and Precision equal to the check digit. 4) Axanim and Ofanim interact in a strange and interesting way. Who wins a fight basically depends on who "gets the drop" on the other and acts first. If the Wheel can rush in and grab the Axle, he can use his resonance to move rapidly and carry the demon along. This doesn't cause Dissonance as such for the Axanim (since it's involuntary), but it is extremely painful and unpleasant; while the Ofanim keeps moving, the Axle cannot use his resonance, and *all* his attributes are reduced by the Wheel's check digit. If the Axle manages to use his resonance on the Wheel, *double* the check digit. If the Ofanim's Precision or Agility is reduced to zero or less, he goes wheeling out of control, zooming off in random directions at maximum speed for the next hour. The Wheel won't find this unpleasant per se -- perhaps even rather interesting -- but since his motion is completely random and uncontrolled, there is an excellent chance of slamming into something large, very hard. In any event he will be removed from any combat involving the Axle... 5. Play the Axanim thoughtful and deliberate, never hurried. Mort the Pusher, from Stephen King's _The Drawing of the Three_, would have been an Axanim: plan ahead carefully -- then *push*. Doug M. dougmuir@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:36:31 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Impudites and Mercurians (Re: Word-Bound Servitors of David) On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > On Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 09:30:24AM +0200, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > Doesn't work for me. It's not like Imps can't live without humans - the > > comparison to food doesn't really work. It's weird that an Imp can't even > > let his pals kill someone who really needs killing (according to the > > demons, of course). > > They can let them do it, so long as they can't stop it. If the demon > planning to kill the human is trivially able to prevent the Impudite > interfering, then the Impudite doesn't have to interfere, as it would do > no good. (This gives Impudites an active incentive _not_ to be good at > combat.) And I'd assume that chains of command also take care of the > problem. I'm not so sure. I'd think that, with the condition as written, they'd have to -try-. Just letting it go would be like a Malakite just letting a demon go because he thinks it's too powerful to kill - he -might- be able to force himself to it, but he'd have to have quite a lot of self-control for a Mallie, and/or orders from his Supe, I think. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:56:03 +0200 (MET DST) From: Jasper Reijer Floor Subject: Re: IN> Valefor and Yves On Mon, 27 Jul 1998 gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > On Sun, 26 Jul 1998, Pee Kitty wrote: > > > This isn't a very popular take on things, but I think Janus and Valefor > > are two different people. > > Until now, I thought I was some sort of a freak on this mailing list, > because that's my opinion as well. Nice to see that I've got allies. :) Count me in. I just can't see anybody (except maybe the demon pronce of secrets) pass themselves off as the other side. At least, not at that level. On the PC level however... > > And the part about how nothing can be done to Yves' library without Yves > > knowing about it and allowing it is written from a PC point of view! > > Remember that Superiors can do what PCs cannot. Valefor is the Prince of > > Theft...it must have been hard as hell, but he pulled it off under Yves > > nose. > > The problem is, I don't think that Valefor was the Prince of Theft at the > time he did it. I may be wrong, but I think I remember reading somewhere > that he didn't get his Word until after he arrived in Hell with the book. > Without a Word, Valefor should have been as limited as any player > character. (Of course, my whole point goes down the toilet if I'm wrong > about what I remember...) I think you're right, but that doesn't make him PC level. Do you think that every major power in heaven is either an archangel or else definable within the rules. I would think that a sufficiently powerfull angel transcends what we can do as PC angels. Also, while he did become more powerful when he got his word, he did earn that word. As far as Yves knowing/noticing or not, well maybe Valefor came up with some new songs (found them somewhere or something), or had an artifact, or any number of things. The point is, while somethings are indeed impossible to do, that's what makes you a legend (or a demon prince, if you prefer) when you do them. That's what seperates the boys from the men. > > See, my players are always looking for those complex behind the scenes > > twists like yourself...so I love to mess with them by making everything > > very simple and straightforward, without telling them that. BTW, Dominic > > isn't a Balseraph in my game either. :) > > Actually, that's what I do as well. Nothing confuses players more than > telling them the truth. They just can't handle it. You want the truth? You can't handle the truth. Actually, my players are all too busy with their own schemes to notice anything so trivial as the truth. mvg, Jasper Floor Had I been present at the creation, I would have given some useful hints for the better ordering of the universe Alphonso the Wise ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:50:34 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> IN Soundtrack I don't have any directions to archives, but for background music, I recommend including "Heaven and Hell" by Vangelis. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:54:26 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting Julian Breen wrote: > >Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are all given equal > >credence. > > Judaism is? Where exactly? In general, any credence given to Christianity can also be applied to Judiasm, since Christianity affirms essentially everything Judaism does. Also, the huge quantities of Jewish folklore that go into the IN world can probably count as affirmation. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:10:30 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: IN> Sure-fire celestial detector? A PC came up with a trivial way to determine whether a given person is a celestial or not -- use the Corporeal Song of Dreams on the target. If there is a dreamscape, then you know the target is human. If there isn't one, then you know the target is a celestial. For my own game, this is perfectly fine (there are solid reasons why his idea should work IMC), but the list consensus makes a big deal about how hard it is to identify celestials, so I thought I'd point it out. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:30:19 +0200 (MET DST) From: Jasper Reijer Floor Subject: Re: IN> Sure-fire celestial detector? On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > A PC came up with a trivial way to determine whether a given person > is a celestial or not -- use the Corporeal Song of Dreams on the > target. If there is a dreamscape, then you know the target is human. > If there isn't one, then you know the target is a celestial. > > For my own game, this is perfectly fine (there are solid reasons > why his idea should work IMC), but the list consensus makes a big > deal about how hard it is to identify celestials, so I thought I'd > point it out. Celestials don't need sleep, but if they do sleep, why shouldn't they dream? How do you think they get to the marches? I don't have my book with me now, but that is the way I intrepreted that. mvg, Jasper Floor She is pretty to walk with,| And witty to talk with, And pleasant, too, to think on. Sir John Suckling - Brennoralt. Act ii. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:39:55 +0200 (MET DST) From: Jasper Reijer Floor Subject: Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Julian Breen wrote: > > > >Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are all given equal > > >credence. > > > > Judaism is? Where exactly? > > In general, any credence given to Christianity can also be applied > to Judiasm, since Christianity affirms essentially everything > Judaism does. Excuse me? You do realize that could be considered an extermely offensive statement, don't you? For one thing, where is Lucifer in jewish tradition? Yes the christians did get it from a sect of jews, but a very minor and unimportant, whose ideas didn't get included in mainstream jewish beliefs, and who don't exist anymore. Just because christianity is loosely based on judaism, and they happen to share some common holy books, doesn't mean that christianity affirms everything judaism does. It certainly doesn't seem to to me (with the existance of satan being one example, in orthodox judaism, all evil comes from god, as does all good). Jewish people and christian people do not tend to see eye to eye on many religous and philisophical issues, and this game definately leans more to christianity. Judaism is included here in the same as it is in christianity, by virtue of inheritance. mvg, Jasper Floor She is pretty to walk with,| And witty to talk with, And pleasant, too, to think on. Sir John Suckling - Brennoralt. Act ii. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:45:13 -0400 From: Kirt Dankmyer Subject: Re: IN> Sure-fire celestial detector? > A PC came up with a trivial way to determine whether a given person > is a celestial or not -- use the Corporeal Song of Dreams on the > target. If there is a dreamscape, then you know the target is human. > If there isn't one, then you know the target is a celestial. > > For my own game, this is perfectly fine (there are solid reasons > why his idea should work IMC), but the list consensus makes a big > deal about how hard it is to identify celestials, so I thought I'd > point it out. The other sure-fire way is to hit them. If they're a Celstial, that won't make noise. This doesn't work for Kyriotates and Shedim, but neither does your method -- a person possessed by a Kyrio goes to the Marches, IIRC, and the mind of a Shedim victim is still there, and capable of dreaming, IMHO. There are always ways. The thing is, every way has a disadvantage. In the case of the method you mention, there's the fact that Songs make noise... Another fun method, BTW, is to blow a point of Essence while doing a minor "skill roll" near the person you want to ping, and if they glance at you sharply, they're probably Celesital. I figure you gotta be really cool not to look when someone disturbs the Symphony, so you can see who did it. ;) -Loki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:42:10 -0500 From: The Bard Subject: Re: IN> Valefor and Yves > > > And the part about how nothing can be done to Yves' library without Yves > > > knowing about it and allowing it is written from a PC point of view! > > > Remember that Superiors can do what PCs cannot. Valefor is the Prince of > > > Theft...it must have been hard as hell, but he pulled it off under Yves > > > nose. > > > > The problem is, I don't think that Valefor was the Prince of Theft at the > > time he did it. I may be wrong, but I think I remember reading somewhere > > that he didn't get his Word until after he arrived in Hell with the book. > > Without a Word, Valefor should have been as limited as any player > > character. (Of course, my whole point goes down the toilet if I'm wrong > > about what I remember...) > Thats what I like about the idea. He was not the Prince of Theft at the time. But he did something so cool and so hard as hell (no pun intended) to pull off that Saten said "Dude I have been sending demons to steel stuff from there for years. You shall from this day forth be the Prince of theft." I for one love the idea of a sudden jump in power it helps my players enjoy the game to think that one day if thay pull something this cool off thay too shall be rewared. I also think that hell has this same debate of how did he do it. Sincerly The Bard "Thoe this be madness there is methed in it" Hamlet "Now that we'er dead what do we do with our lives" Slater ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:58:26 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting Jasper Reijer Floor wrote: > Excuse me? You do realize that could be considered an extermely > offensive statement, don't you? No, I don't. > For one thing, where is Lucifer in jewish tradition? It is not necessary for the tale of Lucifer's fall to be in Jewish tradition. That can be one of the things Christianity affirms that Judaism doesn't. > Just because christianity is loosely based on judaism, and they > happen to share some common holy books, doesn't mean that > christianity affirms everything judaism does. I don't think you understand what I meant by "affirm." Holding the bulk of their holy books in common is a great big fat piece of it. > Judaism is included here in > the same as it is in christianity, by virtue of inheritance. I believe that's essentially what I said in my previous post. Earl ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #876 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.