From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jul 28 03:03:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA26067 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 03:03:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id CAA01376 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 02:20:36 -0500 Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 02:20:36 -0500 Message-Id: <199807280720.CAA01376@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #878 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, July 28 1998 Volume 01 : Number 878 In this digest: Re: IN> the best way to search the archive Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? IN> About Falling Malakim Re: IN> Books and Movies Re: IN> About Falling Malakim Re: IN> the best way to search the archive Re: IN> Movies (I don't read books.) Re: IN> the best way to search the archive Re: IN> the best way to search the archive Re: IN> Final Trumpet Chatter (Re: Tether net-book) Re: IN> Fall of the Malakim intro, and a problem? Re: IN> the best way to search the archive Re: IN> Final Trumpet Chatter (Re: Tether net-book) Re: IN> Sure-fire celestial detector? Re: IN> Fall of the Malakim intro, and a problem? Re: IN> Tether net-book (Re: Tether Sourcebook) IN> Paranoid Players and the Truth IN> Golems Re: IN> Kyrios in Celestial combat, remnants etc.->Golems Re: IN> the best way to search the archive Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting IN> Singing Question Re: IN> Kyrios in Celestial combat, remnants etc.->Golems Re: IN> Re: IN- Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting IN> Sure-fire celestial detector? Re: IN> Fall of the Malakim intro, and a problem? Re: IN> Kyrios in Celestial combat, remnants etc.->Golems IN> Why Stop the Apocalypse? (was RE: Tether-net book) Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting Re: IN> Singing Question Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:06:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Knop Subject: Re: IN> the best way to search the archive > >Are there any ideas on this, or should the archives just remain the huge > >monolith that they are now? > > It might be worth setting up a KWIC index of the Subject lines of all > messages, though those aren't always the most reliable indicator of > topic. That's a pretty mechanical process that could be done with a > Perl script, and the total number of subjects over the life of the > mailing list probably isn't too huge. A decent idea. Of course, it would always be good if people would update their subject lines, but this would at least be a first start. What is KWIC? I'm not familiar with that. - -Rob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 15:21:25 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? Jayson Howell wrote: > > I've a friend in a game who recently did this, indirectly. The > Celestial Song of Charm came in handy. He dropped the mundane clerk's > will to 1, then started in with "It's me! You don't remember me at > all? Sure you do! We use to hang out in band together!"... > > For the rest of the game, she was treating him like an old friend. > The human mind is a lot more maleable than most people give it credit > for. I am reminded of the effective invisibility of Death in Terry Pratchett's Discworld books. He's not really, optically, invisible; people just refuse to see him (until there's no choice). Cats and magic users and, sometimes, small children, see him straight - -- the kids and cats because it's their nature, the magic users because of their training. This could be applied to some celetial forms in IN. Even if a seraph's not invisible, no one is going to believe in a winged, six-eyed snake under most circumstances. Not to mention Kyrios and Sheddites (though if the human fails an easy Will roll, can't make the necessary act of denial, and sees them, their sanity may be in danger as per canon). Soldiers, of course, like Discworld magic users, have no trouble believing what they see. Nor kids. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:06:10 -0700 From: "E Kumar" Subject: IN> About Falling Malakim Umm, just thought of a rreal fast way for a Malakim to fall. A lilim geases the Malakite to take an oath" to never get dissonance!" OOps . . . one point od dissonance leads to two to three and so on and so on.... Akira-- "Deaths A good fellow and keeps open house-" POE ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:00:19 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Books and Movies On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > On Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 11:22:30PM +0200, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > On Sun, 26 Jul 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > > > > > As I've said before, Angus Thermopyle from Stephen Donaldson's Gap Series > > > is the archetypal Djinn of Fire. The series begins with him capturing a > > > young cop named Morn Hyland (clearly a Cherub), and becoming obsessed with > > > her in that lovable Djinn way. > > > > After reading the Gap Series, and also Stephan Grundy's version of the > > Sigfrid saga, I got the tip to compare the two, and the parallells are > > pretty obvious when you look for them. > > Would that be the tip at the back of The Real Story? Actually, I had forgotten all about that when I read Grundy's book and someone told me about the parallells. It was seven years after I read The Real Story, after all. :) > Holt Fasner, who's even called the > > Dragon and Fafnir; Warden Dios with one eye and Odin; Hashi Lebwol with > > his constant motion > > His constant motion? I noticed his deviousness, but the only characters > with constant motion I noticed were Lane Harbinger and Davies Hyland (the > younger). IIRC, he even kept his shoelaces untied in order to help him > project an air of physical ineffectiveness. Hm. I seem to remember that he was always fidgeting, but perhaps I misremember. > and Loki (who was descended from fire-giants). I've > > heard that the Ambioni (if that's what they were called; the aliens > > anyway) were inspired by the dwarfs of Norse myth. > > > The Amnion. Singular: Amnioni. > > And Min Donner has Thor's name. And Donaldson himself matched Thermopyle > to Siegmund and Hyland to Sieglinde, making Davies Siegfried. Well, better trust him on that then. :) > > To get this back on track, more or less: IMO, you can fit nearly any > > character in any novel or movie to some Angel or Demon in IN, simply > > because there are so many to choose from, and because many of them are > > quite archetypal, in a way. > > > Should we be trying to find characters who can't be matched to a > Choir/Band stereotype, then? That might actually be a good idea. Suggestions, anyone? Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:11:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Jayson Howell Subject: Re: IN> About Falling Malakim It wouldn't do a thing. You get a note of dissonance for behaving contrary to your inherent self. One behavior against your nature = one point of dissonance. If you have the oaths "never suffer an evil to live, never suffer a mime to live, never suffer a transvestite to live" and you let Pepper West, the notorious cross dressing mime from Hell get away, you get a note of dissonance for acting against your nature. That would be my take on it anyway... -Jayson - ---E Kumar wrote: > > Umm, just thought of a rreal fast way for a Malakim to fall. > A lilim geases the Malakite to take an oath" to never get dissonance!" > OOps . . . one point od dissonance leads to two to three and so on and so > on.... > Akira-- > "Deaths A good fellow and keeps open house-" > POE > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 98 16:26 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> the best way to search the archive >What is KWIC? I'm not familiar with that. Stands for "KeyWord In Context", I believe. It's a simple, dumb little algorithm that moves through each word in the title, putting a gap of several spaces after each key word (i.e., anything not an article or preposition, usually), and then sorting by the word after the gap. It was used for a long time to compile lists of journal articles in the ACM (Association for Computing Machinery) journals, it may still be in use there, though I suspect they now just use online searches. I was thinking that a file that simply contained the KWIC index of all article subjects in the archive might be useful for someone scanning for topics, even if they weren't sure what they wanted. Simple keyword searches aren't really good for that -- too many hits. Since subjects run on for a period of time, you'd only really have to list the first and last post dates for the given subject, not necessarily all articles with the subject, which is how KWIC indices used to be used. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:40:16 -0700 From: Gryph Clarke Subject: Re: IN> Movies (I don't read books.) Most especially, look for the episode called, "Somehow, Satan Got Behind Me". If this episode wasn't In Nomine, I don't know what is.... It was about four (I think four?) demons who got together in a donut shop to talk about the lives they were screwing up and how Frank Black interfered in each. - - Gryph Jayson Howell wrote: > (TV) Millenium > I started watching this Chris Carter series for Lance Henrikson > alone. I thought early on that this suddenly made Elohim a bit more > appealing to play. In a memorable episode last season, 4 true to life > demons get together and discuss the life of an infernal in the 20th > century. VERY fun to watch. Interesting points about the human > psyche, and how much intervention is actually necessary to further the > cause of evil. Not available yet on Video, but worth watching for. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 14:25:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Knop Subject: Re: IN> the best way to search the archive > Since subjects run on for a period of time, you'd only really have to > list the first and last post dates for the given subject, not > necessarily all articles with the subject, which is how KWIC indices > used to be used. Indeed. So how long until you implement this? :) (I.e., I volunteer Walter.) It sounds like this sort of thing is all that could be done without restructuring the way the archives are stored on disk. It'd be nice to index each message individually (e.g. subject, date, sender, and pointer to the relevant message archive with an internal link) in an SQL database, and then have CGI scripts that searched it... but the server might not want to deal with the overhead of this (even if you could find somebody willing to implement it all, which could be me in a weak moment). - -Rob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 98 17:55 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> the best way to search the archive >So how long until you implement this? :) (I.e., I volunteer Walter.) Fortunately, I can't do it, for contractual reasons.... >It sounds like this sort of thing is all that could be done without >restructuring the way the archives are stored on disk. Yep. > It'd be nice to >index each message individually (e.g. subject, date, sender, and pointer >to the relevant message archive with an internal link) in an SQL database, >and then have CGI scripts that searched it... but the server might not >want to deal with the overhead of this (even if you could find somebody >willing to implement it all, which could be me in a weak moment). Actually, since the database is essentially static, Perl could be used to generate static Web pages with all this stuff, in conjunction with a simple Perl script to extract a message from the archive file given its date. No need for an SQL database, and no real server load, since you only need to run the indexing scripts over the database once, plus over any new stuff arriving, which could be done once a night or once a week or something. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 19:09:27 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Final Trumpet Chatter (Re: Tether net-book) At 4:15 PM -0700 7/24/98, Jayson Howell wrote: >---Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> The cover? I don't know yet. I don't even know if it's *done* >> yet (though I hope it's close to!). If it's what was being >> discussed, there's a chance that it will be the best Revelations >> cover (IMO) in the Cycle. > >Hmmm... Frankly, the main book and Liber Reliquarum have my favorite >covers. Not that I don't like flashy covers, it's just that the >Revelations Cycle makes me feel like I've eaten a funny mushroom. Me too. I like the main cover best. That feather is just so... viceral. >Rowena's work on the player guides is nice, but I don't like the style >in particular. (It reminded me of the "almost but not quite" look of >GURPS Space to be honest.) Hey, I *LIKE* the covers on GURPS Space! (Mind you, the Rowena covers are... Well, the wings on the angel are crooked. Those who know my comments about angelporn may now join in on the chorus.) >Personally, I'd like Zeleznik to do the covers of an entire In Nomine >series. (Hey, I like his work, what can I say.) Zeleznik, Zeleznik... I'm blanking on his work... >> The adventure is big. [...] You wonder how a small group of >> PCs can have an effect on something so *big* as Armageddon? >> Well, sometimes the butterfly fans its wings, and hurricanes >> happen... (Not to mention more direct tricks.) > >Wait... do you hear that? That was a grown man swooning at the >thought. Well, not really, but THANK YOU BETH! > >How does a party of small PC's affect the war? > >Uh.... wait a sec, that's a good question. Now I'm excited... Good! Note: it is big, and there are going to be some times when PCs are basically going to be doing damage control and counting their victories by what they can salvage, not what percentage they can salvage. And there are going to be some times when the PCs are rather, well, pivotal. And there are going to be some times when they think they're one and turn out to be the other! Heh heh heh. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 19:09:16 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Fall of the Malakim intro, and a problem? At 7:43 PM -0700 7/24/98, Graveyard Greg wrote: >It won't give the Malakite dissonance, because, and I do quote: "A >Malakite will never suffer an evil to live when it's his choice." >David ordered him not to act, so it's not the Malakite's decision. No >dissonance! Quite true, which is why, if you read carefully, you'll note that he's taking dissonance from his *other* oaths. (Nice little things, those. No, "when it's your choice" escape clause in 'em.) Which means that it ought to be out in stores Real Soon Now. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 15:50:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Knop Subject: Re: IN> the best way to search the archive > Actually, since the database is essentially static, Perl could be used > to generate static Web pages with all this stuff, in conjunction with a > simple Perl script to extract a message from the archive file given its > date. No need for an SQL database, and no real server load, since you > only need to run the indexing scripts over the database once, plus over > any new stuff arriving, which could be done once a night or once a week > or something. True. (This is how we currently do our indexes at the Dramatic Exchange... creation of static web pages based on different categories using perl scripts.) A more extensive database would let you do more, of course -- search for subject words _and_ the sender, for example. (We hope to implement this sort of thing at the Dramatic Exchange before too long.) ...but this is probably enough technical "how to index the archive" discussion for the IN list :) - -Rob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 16:21:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Jayson Howell Subject: Re: IN> Final Trumpet Chatter (Re: Tether net-book) - ---Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > >Hmmm... Frankly, the main book and Liber Reliquarum have my favorite > >covers. Not that I don't like flashy covers, it's just that the > >Revelations Cycle makes me feel like I've eaten a funny mushroom. > > Me too. I like the main cover best. That > feather is just so... viceral. Hold that thought... > >Rowena's work on the player guides is nice, but I don't like the style > >in particular. (It reminded me of the "almost but not quite" look of > >GURPS Space to be honest.) > > Hey, I *LIKE* the covers on GURPS Space! (Mind you, the Rowena > covers are... Well, the wings on the angel are crooked. Those who > know my comments about angelporn may now join in on the chorus.) Hey... I like the inside of GURPS Space... The cover's not bad, but getting the borders on those GURPS books really helped tie it all together. > > >Personally, I'd like Zeleznik to do the covers of an entire In Nomine > >series. (Hey, I like his work, what can I say.) > > Zeleznik, Zeleznik... I'm blanking on his work... Remember that thought you're holding? The burning feather? That's his work. He also did the covers to a lot of GURPS books like Supers, Robots, Vehicles, Fantasy Adventures, GURPS Mage: The Ascension, that sort of thing. The latter two especially scream to me "Do an In Nomine cover ya twit!" So, if anyone on this list has any pull, give the next series in the In Nomine line to Zeleznik and tell him Jayson says "Thank you." -Jayson _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 19:36:26 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Sure-fire celestial detector? At 11:10 AM -0400 7/27/98, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: >A PC came up with a trivial way to determine whether a given person >is a celestial or not -- use the Corporeal Song of Dreams on the >target. If there is a dreamscape, then you know the target is human. >If there isn't one, then you know the target is a celestial. Actually, you only know this if the person is "asleep" and there is no dreamscape. If the person is awake, his dreamscape cannot be found. (p. 51, main book, last paragraph of "Entering the Marches" in the 2nd column.) As a Kyrio-spotter, though, it's pretty useful. Em and Maya both have a house-rule that dissonance causes celestials to sleep and have dreamscapes, almost just like humans. (Maya added drugs into this equation, too, and a Tether of Nightmares...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 23:48:06 +0100 From: Rhodri James Subject: Re: IN> Fall of the Malakim intro, and a problem? On 27 Jul, Graveyard Greg wrote: > Yeah, I also thought of that....This particular Malakite may have an > oath of Kill any Demon immediately... He or she would have to be a downright stupid servitor of David to do so, though. - -- Rhodri James *-* Wildebeeste herder to the masses If you don't know who I work for, you can't misattribute my words to them ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 21:40:28 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Tether net-book (Re: Tether Sourcebook) > Let's face it, long before SJGames announced it, I was ready. A fan > of Good Omens (Haven't read it? Get to a library now!), I've been > thinking of "avert the apocalypse" adventures before I was even a > third of the way through the main book. (Who hasn't?) Avert the apocalypse? That's no fun. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 21:03:26 -0500 (CDT) From: rogue@ez-net.com Subject: IN> Paranoid Players and the Truth >See, my players are always looking for those complex behind the scenes >twists like yourself...so I love to mess with them by making everything >very simple and straightforward, without telling them that. BTW, Dominic >isn't a Balseraph in my game either. :) I kinda like to make my players paranoid by subjecting them to vicious, backbiting liar NPCs just often enough to keep them on their toes. I think I went too far, though, recently.... We were playing a modified Feast Of Blades (don't worry, no spoilers). After getting a sever case of the run-around from just about everybody, the players managed to get ahold of Jaxel, a Seraph of Revelations. Jaxel was in Celestial form for the conversation, and he told the players what had happened to the dagger. Let me repeat myself: a Seraph of Revelations, speaking the Angelic Tongue in Celestial Form, told my players something. Later, the players were discussing among themselves what to do about the situation. Only then did our resident Dreamer say, in all seriousness: "I bet Jaxel's in on it, too. He probably lied to us." And she didn't understand why I broke out laughing... - -Brent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:13:04 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: IN> Golems > Can you say, Golem? > I know nothing about golems other than a vary little bit that I have picked > up from non reliaible sources, that were only consistent with each other > (something about a "Chem" which is a peice of paper with holy writings on > it that makes the golem able to work/function. Any one who knows more about > this tha I do(that is, anything at all that does not come from disney or > terry pratchett) who wants to enlighten me is welcome to do so. Personally, > i am trying to figure out how to work sorcerors into the mix (maybe the > chem is an artifact....maybe, unlike angles. remnants _are_ summonable by > sorcereors...even bindable...) It looks like time to go reference the Master, Gershom Scholem, and my bookcase of miscellanious Jewish Knowledge. From _On The Kabbalah and it's Symbolism_, chapter 5 deals entirely with the concept of the Golem. (It's called, "The Idea of the Golem".) The Jewish legend was quoted and put into text form by Jakob Grimm in _Journal for Hermits_: "After saying certain prayers and observing certain fast days, the Polish Jews make the figure of a man from clay or mud, and when they pronounce the miraculous Shemhamphoras [the name of God] over him, he must come to life. He cannot speak, byt he understands fairly well what is said or commanded. They call him golem and use him as a servant to do all sorts of housework. But he must never leave the house. On his forehead is written 'emeth [truth]; every day he gains weight and becomes somewhat larger and stronger then all the others in the house, regardless of how little he was to begin with. For fear of him, they therefore erase the first letter, so that nothing remains but meth [he is dead], whereupon he collapses and turns to clay again. But on man's golem once grew so tall, and he heedlessly let him keep on growing so long that he could no longer reach his forehead. In terror he ordered the servant to take off his boots, thinking that when he bent down he could reach his forehead. So it happened, and the first letter was successfully erased, bu the whole heap of clay fell on the Jew and crushed him." Grimm's fairy tales rock, don't they? This is a pretty good rendition of the Jewish legend. The Kabbalistic Golem refers to Adam Kadman, the first man. According to Rabbinical and Talmundic references on Creation, Adam (which means "the Man" in Hebrew) was created by God from the 'best of the clay of the Earth' in which he could utter the 'breath of life' and create him as a Golem in His own image. There is only one reference in to the word Golem in the Bible, and this is in Psalm 139:16, which some of the Jewish tradition puts into the mouth of Adam himself. "For it was you who formed my inward parts; you knit me together in my mother's womb" - in this case the word GOLEM from the Hebrew means 'the unformed' or 'amorphus'. In one sense, Adam was said to be golem before the breath of God made him into a man. There is a famous Talmudic passage (Sanhedrin) which desribes Adam's first day: "Aha bar Hanina said: The day had twelve hours. In the first hour the earth was piled up; in the second he became a golem, a still unformed mass; in the third, his limbs were stretched out; in the fourth the soul was cast into him; in the fifth he stood on his feet; in the sixth he gave [all living things] names; in the seventh Eve was given him for a companion; in the eigthth the two lay down in bed and when they left it, they were four; in the ninth the prohibition was communicated to him; in the tenth he transgressed it; in the eleventh he was judged; in the twelfth he was expel;led and went out into paradise, as it was written in Psalm 49:13: And Adamn does not remain one night in glory." The chapter gets seriously weird from here, I can go on and on for those who are interested. As to how this works in In Nomine Canon, it doesn't. The history section of the Angelic Players Guide, besides having some glaring historical inaccuracies, tends to kill any easy way to segue Jewish myth into IN canon. My solution, because I think that the concept of the Golem is much cooler then anything I've seen thus far, is to junk the canon background and use it instead. *shrug* - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:14:49 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Kyrios in Celestial combat, remnants etc.->Golems > Look up "Kabbala" for Ars Magica. It deals with Mythic Judaism and > has a chapter on golems. It's an excellent accessory, one of the best > I've seen. > Short of learning Hebrew and studying the Sefer Yetzira, it's the best > you can do. Oh, and there was a very good X-Files chapter about a > golem, too. You don't need to learn Hebrew to get the basic concepts of Kabbalah, but it certainly helps when you start digging around in Talmudic texts. In the mean time, I was thinking about buying that book and mining it for IN background to supplant the stuff published, but I'm leery - can anyone tell me if the sourcebook includes a complete bibliography? Thanks! - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:20:26 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> the best way to search the archive > True. (This is how we currently do our indexes at the Dramatic > Exchange... creation of static web pages based on different categories > using perl scripts.) > > A more extensive database would let you do more, of course -- search for > subject words _and_ the sender, for example. (We hope to implement this > sort of thing at the Dramatic Exchange before too long.) > > ...but this is probably enough technical "how to index the archive" > discussion for the IN list :) You both are getting extremely annoyed looks from me right about now. Mostly because I'm very tired, and I know this theoretically comes under my jurisdiction. A) I know that a search engine needs to be put up for the digests at least. As a matter of fact, I noted as much on the INC. BUT..... B) I have a job. And that tends to suck up my time, mostly because That Which Pays Me is more important then That Which Does Not. C) I just came back from vacation and just now getting to my mail. I tell ya what. Someone writes it, and I'll work with it... in about three weeks, god willing. Yes, a search engine, especially for the archive, needs to be posted. No, it's not going to happen this week, regardless of the suggestions, because the person currently maintaining it all is buried. Such is life. *sigh* - - Em, who maintains the INC and the IN website. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 03:10:18 +0100 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting Earl writes: >Julian Breen wrote: > >> >Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are all given equal >> >credence. >> >> Judaism is? Where exactly? > >In general, any credence given to Christianity can also be applied >to Judiasm, since Christianity affirms essentially everything >Judaism does. > I understand what you're saying, Earl, but until we see Judaism in canon...Then I stand by my comment. - -- Julian jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 01:29:32 +0100 From: Julian Breen Subject: IN> Singing Question When a song is sung with verbal components, what is it sung _in_? The native language of the singer? Or does the singer start spouting off in Latin or Ancient Sumerian or somesuch? And what language does an angel sing a song in if can't speak the celestial tongue on earth? (presumably demons sing in the dark celestial tongue.) - -- Julian jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:34:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Kyrios in Celestial combat, remnants etc.->Golems On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, Jo Hart wrote: > Weeell.... (actually the next scenario idea I have in my head is based > around a murder in an orthodox Jewish community which does turn out involve > both a Dybbuk & a golem, and some historical research to pinpoint a similar > incident in Napoleonic Poland, but I digress...). Write this up. Write this up! WRITE THIS UP! *rah rah rah* > One way to de-activate the golem was to rub out the first letter (ie. the > aleph) which would leave the word 'Mat,' meaning 'dead.' As soon as anyone > did this, the golem would fall lifeless to the floor. However, since Hebrew is read right to left, those who tried this trick without knowing that would probably end up erasing the 'T' instead. Bugger. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:36:45 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting > To use a *very* crude metaphor, it's like saying that Windows 95/98 is > "essentially the same" as the Mac OS. T'ain't so. There are numerous > similarities, in part because one (ripped off/copied from/was inspired > by) the other... but the underlying systems are very different, and they > won't run the same software. Dude, do I ever want to see Judaism OS. Is that the one where, if you mention the name of the hacker who wrote it, he personally shows up at your house and strikes you dead? - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:40:22 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting > >In general, any credence given to Christianity can also be applied > >to Judiasm, since Christianity affirms essentially everything > >Judaism does. > > > > I understand what you're saying, Earl, but until we see Judaism in > canon...Then I stand by my comment. > It won't happen - seeing straight Judaism in canon, I mean. Jewish folklore, maybe. Jewish history, or at least Judges, Samuel, Kings, Chronicles and a prophet or two, well, possibly but I'm not holding my breath. But Judaism itself? In Nomine is basically Persia/Zoroastarianistic with nice Christian overtones, it's so far away from Judaism that it's in another universe entirely. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:54:36 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Sure-fire celestial detector? >>>A PC came up with a trivial way to determine whether a given person is a celestial or not -- use the Corporeal Song of Dreams on the target. If there is a dreamscape, then you know the target is human. If there isn't one, then you know the target is a celestial.<<< You can only find a dreamscape if the subject is dreaming, so first you have to perform the Song on someone while they are asleep. (Of course celestials don't normally sleep, but if you follow someone around long enough to ascertain that, you can probably deduce whether or not he's a celestial anyway...) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:02:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> Fall of the Malakim intro, and a problem? - ---Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > At 7:43 PM -0700 7/24/98, Graveyard Greg wrote: > > >It won't give the Malakite dissonance, because, and I do quote: "A > >Malakite will never suffer an evil to live when it's his choice." > >David ordered him not to act, so it's not the Malakite's decision. No > >dissonance! > > Quite true, which is why, if you read carefully, you'll note that > he's taking dissonance from his *other* oaths. (Nice little > things, those. No, "when it's your choice" escape clause in 'em.) > Hee hee hee! > happily> > "Croons"? You actually used that word in a sentence? And why should the Djinn Princess Beth croon? *GASP* It almost sounds like she CARES! > Which means that it ought to be out in stores Real Soon Now. > WOO HOO! That would make ANYBODY happy! Except for Dominic, who would just say "What took so long?" Graveyard Greg _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 05:59:01 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Kyrios in Celestial combat, remnants etc.->Golems At 22:34 27/07/98 -0400, you wrote: >On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, Jo Hart wrote: > >> One way to de-activate the golem was to rub out the first letter (ie. the >> aleph) which would leave the word 'Mat,' meaning 'dead.' As soon as anyone >> did this, the golem would fall lifeless to the floor. > >However, since Hebrew is read right to left, those who tried this trick >without knowing that would probably end up erasing the 'T' instead. >Bugger. > Yeah, that would be a bummer. (But if you were a mathamatician, you should know what an aleph looked like because they use it as a symbol for something-or-other, so all is not lost!). I found one odd version of the story in which the golem could speak. On being animated, its first action was to turn to its creator and say 'Father, was this wise?' -- I think that's so cool. jo - ---===--- "Some people leave money for the improvement of public buildings. I can leave dynamite for the improvement of public buildings." - --- G. K. Chesterton ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:15:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: IN> Why Stop the Apocalypse? (was RE: Tether-net book) - ---"Emily K. Dresner" wrote: > > > > Let's face it, long before SJGames announced it, I was ready. A fan > > of Good Omens (Haven't read it? Get to a library now!), I've been > > thinking of "avert the apocalypse" adventures before I was even a > > third of the way through the main book. (Who hasn't?) > > Avert the apocalypse? That's no fun. > > - Em > > > Yeah, the Apocalypse is more of an excuse to have an "End of the World Party"! I can't wait for The Final Trumpet, for two reasons. A: It ties in all of the Revelations Cycle (which is good, since I'm using most of the adventures anyway), and B: It has Khlaid, Archangel of Faith. I've been waiting for his write-up, next to Uriel's...which may or may not happen, but ya never know... :) Graveyard Greg _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 06:22:11 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting At 22:40 27/07/98 -0400, you wrote: > But Judaism itself? In Nomine is basically >Persia/Zoroastarianistic with nice Christian overtones, it's so far away >from Judaism that it's in another universe entirely. Well, does In Nom current canon include the following (all of which define orthodox Jewish belief)? a) There is one God. b) He was the first being & has existed forever/ will exist forever c) He is the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob (doesn't specifically say so but I think we can reasonably assume). d) God is the master of the universe & it is wrong to direct prayers to any other being. e) The messiah has not already turned up. (It should say if he had!) f) One day, the messiah will come (iffy... but definitely not ruled out.) g) At some point, God will reward the good and punish the wicked. Now, the important bits which haven't been addressed are: g) God communicates through his prophets (& Moses was the one who saw God most clearly) (Note that g is also required by both Christianity & Islam, with a caveat that favours their preferred prophets instead, so if that is out then those both get hit also.) h) Veracity of the Torah (I don't think we expect IN to go this far, although you could say so without really harming the game, especially as it is accepted by Xtianity & Islam, with their favoured amendments seen as over-ruling some parts (Naturally this is heresy to Jews, because an item of faith is that the Torah was perfect). Whole segments of learning are based on the fact that there are supposedly hidden codes inside it :) ). If most of those things have some basis in game-fact, then it isn't a million miles away from Judaism. It's just that... there is a lot of _extra_ stuff. jo - ---===--- "Some people leave money for the improvement of public buildings. I can leave dynamite for the improvement of public buildings." - --- G. K. Chesterton ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 23:26:25 -0700 From: "E Kumar" Subject: Re: IN> Singing Question I thought songs were just a cooler name than *magic*. In tethers or in heaven, where an angels got lots of time I wouldn't think angels would even have to spend essence, as long as they "sang the song". But in most situations, they just blow off the essence and zap- a song is born! My spin anyways! Where does it mention components of a song anyhow? Akira-- - ---------- > From: Julian Breen > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: IN> Singing Question > Date: Monday, July 27, 1998 5:29 PM > > When a song is sung with verbal components, what is it sung _in_? The > native language of the singer? Or does the singer start spouting off in > Latin or Ancient Sumerian or somesuch? > > And what language does an angel sing a song in if can't speak the > celestial tongue on earth? (presumably demons sing in the dark celestial > tongue.) > > -- > Julian > jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 23:38:20 -0700 From: "E Kumar" Subject: Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting As I began the "Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting" speel, my point was that I found different takes on the theological end to be interesting and fun. If you see and read into Judaistic elements than use 'em, just like I'm using some Hindu and Bhuddist arenas. If the game designers didn't consider it a part of their creative process; doesn't mean you can't! Go crazy . . . have fun, after all it's a game. Akira-- - ---------- > From: Jo Hart > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting > Date: Monday, July 27, 1998 10:22 PM > > At 22:40 27/07/98 -0400, you wrote: > > But Judaism itself? In Nomine is basically > >Persia/Zoroastarianistic with nice Christian overtones, it's so far away > >from Judaism that it's in another universe entirely. > > > Well, does In Nom current canon include the following (all of which define > orthodox Jewish belief)? > a) There is one God. > b) He was the first being & has existed forever/ will exist forever > c) He is the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob (doesn't specifically say so but > I think we can reasonably assume). > d) God is the master of the universe & it is wrong to direct prayers to any > other being. > e) The messiah has not already turned up. (It should say if he had!) > f) One day, the messiah will come (iffy... but definitely not ruled out.) > g) At some point, God will reward the good and punish the wicked. > > Now, the important bits which haven't been addressed are: > > g) God communicates through his prophets (& Moses was the one who saw God > most clearly) > > (Note that g is also required by both Christianity & Islam, with a caveat > that favours their preferred prophets instead, so if that is out then those > both get hit also.) > > h) Veracity of the Torah (I don't think we expect IN to go this far, > although you could say so without really harming the game, especially as it > is accepted by Xtianity & Islam, with their favoured amendments seen as > over-ruling some parts (Naturally this is heresy to Jews, because an item > of faith is that the Torah was perfect). Whole segments of learning are > based on the fact that there are supposedly hidden codes inside it :) ). > > If most of those things have some basis in game-fact, then it isn't a > million miles away from Judaism. It's just that... there is a lot of > _extra_ stuff. > > > jo > > ---===--- > "Some people leave money for the improvement of public buildings. I can > leave dynamite for the improvement of public buildings." > --- G. K. Chesterton ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #878 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.