From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jul 28 14:07:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA27536 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:07:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id NAA13219 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:44:07 -0500 Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:44:07 -0500 Message-Id: <199807281844.NAA13219@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #880 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, July 28 1998 Volume 01 : Number 880 In this digest: Re: IN> Re: your mail Re: IN> IN, Judaism, and more IN> A request Re: IN> Singing Question Re: IN> IN, Judaism, and more Re: IN> About Falling Malakim RE: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting Re: IN> Kyrios in Celestial combat, remnants etc.->Golems Re: IN> Fall of the Malakim intro, and a problem? Re: IN> Miltonian IN Re: IN> Sure-fire celestial detector? Re: IN> Messing with Habbalite Minds Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one Re: IN> Sure-fire celestial detector? Re: IN> Singing Question Re: IN> Why Stop the Apocalypse? (was RE: Tether-net book) Re: IN> About Falling Malakim IN> The question of questions Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting Re: IN> Sure-fire celestial detector? Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting Re: IN> Fall of the Malakim intro, and a problem? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:05:35 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Re: your mail Thomas J. Ladegard wrote: > You're right, Judaism doesn't have Heaven or Hell the way > Christianity. Of course, technically, neither does the Bible. > Popular Christian ideas of Hell, and especially those used in IN are > mostly drawn from medieval writers, Dante in particular. Lots of liberties have been taken with Dante, too, of course. His Inferno is a highly systematic system of concentric rings, each deeper and worse than the last, organized according to the ethical philosophy of Aristotle. (Purgatory, on the other hand, is organized according to Christian ethical theory.) Also, it is worth pointing out that Christianity itself is not uniform in the way it depicts the afterlife. Of course, there are the off-mainstream denominations, but even within the mainstream, there is the Orthodox Church, and according to them, if I recall correctly, the dead pass on to a dreamlike state, where they remain until the General Resurrection on Judgement Day, after which they pass on to Paradise or Hell. > And yes, Lucifer isn't exactly Satan, the Adversary of Job (not that > Christianity recognises a difference), but Judaism doesn't offer the > possibility of anything being outside of God's plan. Neither does Christianity, though of course in Christianity, Satan is *trying* to be outside God's plan. However, as the demon Crowley pointed out in "Good Omens," the game God plays is not dice (as we all know), nor poker nor chess, but, ultimately, solitaire. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:33:07 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> IN, Judaism, and more >There's not real reason to assume that Judaism is right either. True. I was just trying to present the case that IN reality is _not_ closer to Christianity than it is to Judaism. It doesn't say anywhere 'Christ was the messiah, the Jews are wrong.' I think I've also given some examples of very basic tenets of Judaism which are bourne out by the background. (YMMV). >I don't think IN postulates any kind of religion - it postulates a certain >kind of reality. Religion is of man, not of nature, IMO, and the IN God >doesn't seem to care much who or what humanity worships, as long as they >Act Good(TM). Again, this is closer to the Jewish viewpoint than it is to the Christian one ;) *ducking for cover* jo - --- "Some people leave money for the improvement of public buildings. I can leave dynamite for the improvement of public buildings." -- G. K. Chesterton ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:05:14 +0100 From: Julian Breen Subject: IN> A request Sorry to burden the lists with this, but a short while ago I seem to remember somebody posting up a 'What's the deal with Djinn?' type message. Something along the lines of 'If djinn can't emotionally/psychologically harm their attunements, then how do djinn of Beleth work?' I even (seem) to remember a reply or two. Well, I just went to print this thread out for a player, and I can't find it anywhere! Did I imagine it or is it out there somewhere? I've searched all my digests back to #800 (Pretty sure it wasn't up there before then). So is someone playing with my dreamscape? Or can anybody point it out? (Please reply to my e-mail and _much obliged_) - -- Julian - Bewildered as usual jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:10:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Jayson Howell Subject: Re: IN> Singing Question I've always understood that the reason the vocal components aren't expicitly detailed, is that there are no explicit details. Interpret it how you like... Some GM's may wish for them to be in Hebrew, ancient Etruscan, Latin, or what have you. Some will base it off of the character concepts. Some don't care what happens so long as it does. (This gives the surrounding witnesses a clue that something is up after all...) I think the general consensus amongst those I've spoken with is that it depends on the character, but I've heard other takes as well. -Jayson - ---Julian Breen wrote: > > When a song is sung with verbal components, what is it sung _in_? The > native language of the singer? Or does the singer start spouting off in > Latin or Ancient Sumerian or somesuch? > > And what language does an angel sing a song in if can't speak the > celestial tongue on earth? (presumably demons sing in the dark celestial > tongue.) > > -- > Julian > jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:18:18 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> IN, Judaism, and more On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Hart, Joanna wrote: > True. I was just trying to present the case that IN reality is _not_ closer > to Christianity than it is to Judaism. It doesn't say anywhere 'Christ was > the messiah, the Jews are wrong.' I think I've also given some examples of > very basic tenets of Judaism which are bourne out by the background. (YMMV). I hope it hasn't seemed like I have tried to argue that IN is Christian! If I have, I'm going to feel very foolish for a while now. :) > >I don't think IN postulates any kind of religion - it postulates a certain > >kind of reality. Religion is of man, not of nature, IMO, and the IN God > >doesn't seem to care much who or what humanity worships, as long as they > >Act Good(TM). > > Again, this is closer to the Jewish viewpoint than it is to the Christian > one ;) Kudos to the Jews. Much more sympathetic than Christianity, I think. :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 07:49:41 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> About Falling Malakim At 4:11 PM -0400 7/27/98, Jayson Howell wrote: >It wouldn't do a thing. You get a note of dissonance for behaving >contrary to your inherent self. One behavior against your nature = >one point of dissonance. If you have the oaths "never suffer an evil >to live, never suffer a mime to live, never suffer a transvestite to >live" and you let Pepper West, the notorious cross dressing mime from >Hell get away, you get a note of dissonance for acting against your >nature. > >That would be my take on it anyway... I, on the other hand, would levy three points of Dissonance for letting the nefarious Pepper West run free. In canon, there are Malakim whose Oaths mirror (or almost Mirror) their dissonance conditions, though the only one I can recall at this moment is Manaxel, the Angel of Tinkering. A servtor of Lightning with the nasty oath of "Destroy all devices of Diabolical Origin", which mirrors Jean's Dissonance Condition of "Allow no infernally-inspired invention to go unopposed. I see taking Oaths that mirror a Malakite's Superior Dissonance Conditions as a way of affirming his loyalty to a superior, by putting himself in greater peril if those conditions are violated. If, in the Late 19th century, Nybbas had sent Manaxiel a hand-crafted Television, and he just ignored the diabolica devisce, U would have levied two points of Dissonance upon him. > > -Jayson > > > > >- ---E Kumar wrote: >> >> Umm, just thought of a rreal fast way for a Malakim to fall. >> A lilim geases the Malakite to take an oath" to never get dissonance!" >> OOps . . . one point od dissonance leads to two to three and so on >and so >> on.... Most Malakim, in the above situation wil blow boatloads of Essence to Resist that Geas and summarily give the Lilim a point of Dissonance before sending her on an all-expenses-paid trip to her Heart, if she has one. If the Malakite's still in good graces with his Superior, and the Geas did indeed "take", he would probably summon his Superior at his earliest convenience, and ask to have the Geas removed. So long as the Geas wasn't imparted by Lilith herself, it should be pretty possible. A Malakite who's not in his Superior's good graces has the option of "persuading" the lilim to releve him of the Geas, something likely to be tougher than pulling teeth. One way to do it might be severely downgrading the value of a Lilim's geas network by slaughtering the Humans she has geasa on. Finally, any Geas that is akin to "Take a frivolous and self-destructive oath at the command of a Demon" should require a pretty high-level Geas on the part of the Lilim, and the higher the Geas, the less often it inflicts Dissonance. At a point of Dissonance a year, a Malakite could live with it. And any Malakite worth the name, if he did get himself in a situation where he was racking up Dissonance at a prodidgious rate, would slay himself long before the Discord he would be racking up put him in a Falling mindset. On a divergent tack, this is somewhat akin to an idea I had for the Dissonance Condition of Uriel's Angels: "It is Dissonant for a Servitor of Purity to be Dissonant. You get one chance with Uriel." The initial idea was that since servitors of Purity can't Fall, they would instead swiftly be transformed in to roiling cauldrons of Discord if Chior Dissonance were Violated. But since Superior dissonance is lost upon becoming Outcast, it's only a quick trip out of Heaven's graces, rather than to spontaneous self-destruction. But I'm done digressing now. ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Anya, Balseraph Baron of Theft, the Demon of Impersonation nofori@pop3.utoledo.edu | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:58:47 -0400 From: ixDragons Subject: RE: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDBA20.3F45C9E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit :) - -----Original Message----- From: Emily Dresner [SMTP:zenith@umich.edu] Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 1998 9:12 AM To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting > Besides, what I said above was that the Torah hasn't been mentioned in IN. > This is more or less true, whether I know anything about Judaism or not. Neither has most of the New Testament, but no one is arguing that it has no bearing on IN. *shrug* Just because it's not in the sourcebooks doesn't mean it doesn't have bearing on the game. In Nomine is actually so far away from Christianity, Judaism AND Islam that it's not even in the question. The closest is to Christianity, but in reality it's more of a nicely tweaked version of badly represented Zoroastarianism. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's something to keep in mind. - - Em - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDBA20.3F45C9E0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IgoQAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAyAEAAAEAAAAQAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAATwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGluX25vbWluZS1sQGxp c3RzLmlvLmNvbQBTTVRQAGluX25vbWluZS1sQGxpc3RzLmlvLmNvbQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01U UAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAABkAAABpbl9ub21pbmUtbEBsaXN0cy5pby5jb20AAAAAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4P BgAAAB4AATABAAAAGwAAACdpbl9ub21pbmUtbEBsaXN0cy5pby5jb20nAAACAQswAQAAAB4AAABT TVRQOklOX05PTUlORS1MQExJU1RTLklPLkNPTQAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAAeAPZfAQAAABkA AABpbl9ub21pbmUtbEBsaXN0cy5pby5jb20AAAAAAgH3XwEAAABPAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A 3QEPVAIAAAAAaW5fbm9taW5lLWxAbGlzdHMuaW8uY29tAFNNVFAAaW5fbm9taW5lLWxAbGlzdHMu aW8uY29tAAADAP1fAQAAAAMA/18AAAAAAgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAAtljAQSAAQAyAAAAUkU6IElO PiBFYXN0ZXJuIHJlbGlnaW9uIGluIHRoZSBJbi1Ob21pbmUgc2V0dGluZwAREQEFgAMADgAAAM4H BwAcAAsAOgAvAAIAbgEBIIADAA4AAADOBwcAHAALADoAKQACAGgBAQmAAQAhAAAAMzM4QjdERjEw RTI2RDIxMUE4NUU0NDQ1NTM1NDAwMDAA3AYBA5AGAMQGAAAhAAAACwACAAEAAAALACMAAAAAAAMA JgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADAC4AAAAAAAMANgAAAAAAQAA5AGAeoJpAur0BHgBwAAEAAAAyAAAAUkU6 IElOPiBFYXN0ZXJuIHJlbGlnaW9uIGluIHRoZSBJbi1Ob21pbmUgc2V0dGluZwAAAAIBcQABAAAA FgAAAAG9ukCadfF9izQmDhHSqF5ERVNUAAAAAB4AHgwBAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAfDAEAAAAZ AAAAaXhkcmFnb25zQG1pbmRzcHJpbmcuY29tAAAAAAMABhCpMjFRAwAHEKYCAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUA AAA6KS0tLS0tT1JJR0lOQUxNRVNTQUdFLS0tLS1GUk9NOkVNSUxZRFJFU05FUlNNVFA6WkVOSVRI QFVNSUNIRURVU0VOVDpUVUVTREFZLEpVTFkyOCwxOTk4OToxMkFNVE86SU5OAAAAAAIBCRABAAAA hgMAAIIDAAAaBQAATFpGdbcSAngDAAoAcmNwZzEyNRYyAPgLYG4OEDAzM50B9yACpAPjAgBjaArA 4HNldDAgBxMCgwBQoRB2cHJxMhF2fQqA2QjIIDsJbw4wNQKACoFsdWMAUAsDYxISC8QgPDopCqIK hBe6CzBsaTwzNgFAFpABQBLAb3SFBZB0EgQxNiAtGpJ6TwUQZwuAB0AF0AeQc/hhZ2Uakxd2GaQZ cQsTwRmmaS0xNDQBQBjwODE4MAFADNAeM2IgKkYDYToMg2IRYEVtkQMQeSBECXBzbgSQACBbU01U UDp6wQnwaXRoQHUgYBDw8i4JgHVdF3UfYAZgAjAFH8dUClBzZGF5LEggSnUggTI4JHAxwDk5OCA5 Og4gEXAyTSKnVG8fxwuAX24nA3ALgBvQbEAY8HN0oHMuaW8uBaBtIqgYdWJqGdEfx1JlOtAgSU4+ IEBhKAAEkl8JcBjwGxACICcRICHQZVEqYG4tTidjIBExdP0LgGccPx1KGPQLtheJKpCqQgeQaQEA cyRwdxEATQVASSzAC3BkIAGgb/p2LBB3KsAr4TFxK/ImcLByYWggEQAg4CcFQPpiCeEgB4ACMCuB CYArsuUqcC4wRlRoBAAnEAQgawRgCXAgBbFsG4Er4HK/ClAxMhFALAAFwDGgaydQuwfgAHB5IdAt ETICdQVAtySQJEAEAG02oidQdDVV/xd0B8AhwSEBM6E2USgANqD2ZivjB8JUB5ABkDRiJHB+YjlB J1A2oCyhNgEKwGf+dTjSMrMhwDOSF3Q90TQQDwrAONIrkTUxICAqc/JoN0BnKkEQJJA8ATQQzGNh QdA+IXQnBCA6ISUrtnMIYWNlBuBva/k/lWRvINEz4QeAA5E/Qd9EphEAMkFAOSvyZz0hQQG/F3os MAewLHQ+QhngdQdA0yCBQ5AgZgrBYTJwIJD5A1IgQ0FQJ/EHMCGxJGPROZRBTkQqYHMLYCiV2z71 QrVlMkArp3EkETSS90EBNeAsEGMJABEwPAE2Af50PeBLDD2RF3QrwQlwB0DvS5FChDZkPEBhOhAN 4CtA6SCQdHdAQGs00TJAESDjK4I8MWJhZCCBCXASwK8HkCNBCYAXdFoFsG8qwX9AUUtxOcBPdAlw QrQ4w3f/A2BY0iHBMqM9dEKTQ5AHgH84tFCQF3RUgFXgK7IncWRdOlstIEEXehOBAF6QAAADABAQ AAAAAAMAERAAAAAAAwCAEP////9AAAcwoHhAl0C6vQFAAAgwoHhAl0C6vQELAACACCAGAAAAAADA AAAAAAAARgAAAAADhQAAAAAAAAMAAoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABCFAAAAAAAAAwAFgAgg BgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAUoUAALcNAAAeACWACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAABUhQAAAQAA AAQAAAA4LjAAAwAmgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAAYUAAAAAAAALAC+ACCAGAAAAAADAAAAA AAAARgAAAAAOhQAAAAAAAAMAMIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABGFAAAAAAAAAwAygAggBgAA AAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAGIUAAAAAAAAeAEGACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA2hQAAAQAAAAEA AAAAAAAAHgBCgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAN4UAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4AQ4AIIAYAAAAA AMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADiFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAAMADTT9NwAA B5k= - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDBA20.3F45C9E0-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:39:56 -0700 From: alloni@ibsystems.com (Alloni Kramer) Subject: Re: IN> Kyrios in Celestial combat, remnants etc.->Golems >> One way to de-activate the golem was to rub out the first letter (ie. the >> aleph) which would leave the word 'Mat,' meaning 'dead.' As soon as anyone >> did this, the golem would fall lifeless to the floor. > >However, since Hebrew is read right to left, those who tried this trick >without knowing that would probably end up erasing the 'T' instead. >Bugger. Leaving Am, meaning country, which might do strange things. Alloni ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:38:03 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Fall of the Malakim intro, and a problem? On Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 11:31:20AM -0700, Graveyard Greg wrote: > > >It won't give the Malakite dissonance, because, and I do quote: "A > > >Malakite will never suffer an evil to live when it's his choice." > > >David ordered him not to act, so it's not the Malakite's decision. No > > >dissonance! > > I'm wondering where people are getting these quotes from, because I can't find any link to excerpts in the bit on Fall of the Malakim on the SJG homepage. Is this something magical that happens to people who connect from Ireland, or who use Netscape, or who have unknowingly incurred the displeasure of the Game? I can see excerpts from the IPG without difficulty. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:13:09 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Miltonian IN On Tue, Jul 28, 1998 at 04:28:53AM -0400, Pete Overton wrote: > >PS. On another topic, has anyone thought about trying to adapt IN to > >Milton's Paradise Lost? You'd have to change the names/ characteristics of > >the demon princes and the geography of Hell but it might be quite > >interesting to do... > For one thing, you'd have to make all demons friends with one another (to the extent that demons can actually be friends). I distinctly recall a passage in which it was stated that demons are loyal to the Rebellion and to Lucifer, and don't fight with one another. Since I don't have the book with me, or even within ten miles of me, I can't quote it exactly. This takes much of the fun out of Malphas (although, of course, he wasn't mentioned in it). IIRC, of the game Princes, Asmodeus, Belial and Mammon get mention in Paradise Lost, and Belial is very different. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:09:11 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Sure-fire celestial detector? At 8:24 AM -0400 7/28/98, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: >David Edelstein >> >>You can only find a dreamscape if the subject is dreaming, so first you >>have to perform the Song on someone while they are asleep. (Of course >>celestials don't normally sleep, but if you follow someone around long >>enough to ascertain that, you can probably deduce whether or not he's a >>celestial anyway...) > >I thought that it wasn't possible to enter the dreamscape of a waking >person (though you could look into it and see daydreams), but that there >wasn't really any problem with finding it. If the person isn't dreaming, then the 'scape is nowhere to be found. p. 51, Entering the Marches, last paragraph of that section, first sentence: "While a human is awake, his dreamscape cannot be found." >Speaking of, could a Cherub or Djinn on the ethereal plane find the >dreamscape of someone they're attuned to? I'd play it that way... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:31:18 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Messing with Habbalite Minds Just wanted to say thanksfor all the help everyone., All the answers are appreciated (it's not like there's a "universal" Habbalite answer to the question \|=), and I now have a better grip on the delusion of Hell's self-affirmed Angels. ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Anya, Balseraph Baron of Theft, the Demon of Impersonation nofori@pop3.utoledo.edu | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:31:49 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one At 8:26 AM -0400 7/28/98, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: >Earl Wajenberg wrote: >> >>This just struck me: Celestials are supposed to be very concerned >>about interfering with the Symphony. A reality re-write strikes >>me as a very major interference. Shouldn't it cause an >>enormous disturbance? This would be another argument for doing >>Roles by forgery and imposture. > >How is it handled in TV shows like "Touched By An Angel" and >"Highway to Heaven"? I am asking because I don't know; I don't >own a television. I used to refer to "Touched by an Angel" as "Smacked Upside the Head by an Angel" primarily because I'dnever seen an episode where a problem was solved without the Angels telling the person in trouble "I'm an Angel, sent here by god to fix your problem" or thereabouts.They seem minimally concerened with keeping thigs quiet. ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Anya, Balseraph Baron of Theft, the Demon of Impersonation nofori@pop3.utoledo.edu | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:32:44 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Sure-fire celestial detector? At 2:32 AM -0400 7/28/98, E Kumar wrote: >Celestial or not, but how about wether they're infernal or not? >No obvious behaviour statements please. My PC's had an Impudite 'friend' >for so long that when they found out good ol' Joe was a demon, they >actually felt bad about it.( And one of 'em is a Malakite!) Will wonders >never cease. >N.B. The Malakim still wants him dead, but he *does* feel bad. >Akira-- Mercurian resonance does a passable job of that, on a Check Digit of 3 or Higher... "Let's see...most people you know call you 'Arapaxus', and your geographic point of Origin is 'Gamma Complex, Tarterus' under a Cyberpunkish Megacorp culture, and your major interests and hobbies include 'Biocomputer research, and the practical applications of human brains in household appliances.' I'm guessing you're a Demon of Technology. Tell me what I've won?" There's a chance of catching a Redeemed Demon this way, if the interests and hobbies aren't blatantly obvious, though. There are a number of other ways to tell whether J.Random Personage is a Demon, and a year or so ago, Archangel Beth collected a number of them, and put them up on the In Nomine Collection, if I recall correctly. ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Anya, Balseraph Baron of Theft, the Demon of Impersonation nofori@pop3.utoledo.edu | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:30:35 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Singing Question At 8:10 AM -0700 7/28/98, Jayson Howell wrote: >I've always understood that the reason the vocal components aren't >expicitly detailed, is that there are no explicit details. Interpret >it how you like... [...] >Some don't care what happens so long as it does. (This gives the >surrounding witnesses a clue that something is up after all...) I've always imagined it being in 'pidgen celestial' (such as the Singing skill allows) or some other semi-wordless Song. Another celestial can tell, if you're using vocal components, but J.Random Mundane won't tell anything but that you're weird. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:33:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> Why Stop the Apocalypse? (was RE: Tether-net book) - ---Emily Dresner wrote: > > > > Yeah, the Apocalypse is more of an excuse to have an "End of the World > > Party"! > > I wasn't clear last night, apparently. What I meant was, why advert the > apocalypse when it's so much more interesting just to go ahead and run it > all the way through to it's messy, bloody, nasty conclusion. > No, Em..you were very clear...I was giving you the statement MY players would give. Malakim of Creation have some very weird party ideas, apparently. Graveyard Greg _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 98 13:35 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> About Falling Malakim >>> A lilim geases the Malakite to take an oath" to never get dissonance!" >>> OOps . . . one point od dissonance leads to two to three and so on >>and so >>> on.... ... > Finally, any Geas that is akin to "Take a frivolous and >self-destructive oath at the command of a Demon" should require a pretty >high-level Geas on the part of the Lilim, and the higher the Geas, the less >often it inflicts Dissonance. At a point of Dissonance a year, a Malakite >could live with it. In fact, the additional guidelines on Geases in FotM would suggest that such a Geas attempt will automatically fail, on two separate points: - the duration is effectively infinite, which makes it higher than Geas/6, which means it will auto-fail. - if it *did* cause "recursive dissonance", it would be equivalent to Geasing someone to take an infinite number of actions, all of which caused dissonance, which again puts this above a Geas/6. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:38:40 PDT From: "Doug Muir" Subject: IN> The question of questions >> But if you haven't a clue, why are you continuing to post? Whoso can answer this question, he will finally and truly understand the Net... Doug M. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 98 13:46 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting >Well, does In Nom current canon include the following (all of which define >orthodox Jewish belief)? >a) There is one God. >b) He was the first being & has existed forever/ will exist forever These two certainly appear to be canon. >c) He is the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob (doesn't specifically say so but >I think we can reasonably assume). Unknown, in canon, but plausible. >d) God is the master of the universe & it is wrong to direct prayers to any >other being. Certainly canon says some AAs believe this (certainly Uriel did), though it's not clear what God's canon opinion on the matter is. It's also not clear if God cares about prayers *at all* in canon. >e) The messiah has not already turned up. (It should say if he had!) Actually, I think this one is officially Canon Doubt and Uncertainty. And/or even the AAs aren't sure of the answer. >f) One day, the messiah will come (iffy... but definitely not ruled out.) Definitely iffy in canon. >g) At some point, God will reward the good and punish the wicked. It seems to be set up that way in canon, though it isn't entirely clear whether this was intended (assuming this means anything with God), or whether this is just how things happen to work out. > Now, the important bits which haven't been addressed are: > >g) God communicates through his prophets (& Moses was the one who saw God >most clearly) Definitely canon says that Gabriel spoke to Mohammed, though at Yves direct orders -- it's not clear if that was on Higher orders. But she's clearly described as being God's messenger, which suggests that at least *some* of the prophets may have heard from God, either directly or indirectly. >h) Veracity of the Torah I would guess this is completely out of canon, though I don't know enough about the actual requirements to be sure. All of that said, I think it's safe to say that IN isn't designed to be completely coincident with *any* religious beliefs, though it contains deliberately superficial similarities to several of them. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 98 13:50 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting >> g) God communicates through his prophets (& Moses was the one who saw God >> most clearly) > >Considering that God doesn't even communicate with His -angels- very much, >and that IN hasn't made any mention what so ever of prophets, I'd say this >is highly dubious. There are some implications in and around Gabriel's material that prophets are part of the IN system. Also, the fact that the Superiors on both sides apparently believe in Armaggedon, which is essentially from a human prophetic vision (as I understand it -- my Biblical scholarship is rather weak), suggests that prophets have some basis in fact in IN canon. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:49:45 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Sure-fire celestial detector? On Tue, Jul 28, 1998 at 01:09:11PM -0400, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >Speaking of, could a Cherub or Djinn on the ethereal plane find the > >dreamscape of someone they're attuned to? > > I'd play it that way... > Somewhat more importantly, it's mentioned as a way in the Marches. The only other way is through physical proximity. Of course, having located a dreamscape, you then have to go in. Given that the use of the Song of Celestial Attraction is forbidden to Servitors of Dream in the Corporeal Realm, and that Drean Walking doesn't work on Beleth's side of the Marches, it's unlikely that (non-Cherubic) Servitors of Dream without the Mercurian of Dreams attunement have much of a chance to roam Beleth's marches protecting people. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 98 13:57 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting >As to what IN does, I think it is based more on christian belief than on >jewish belief. However, IN is not what christians believe. It tries to >allow for all the other beliefs in the world somehow (either by saying >their gods are in the marches, or saying that they are worshiping god). >This means that IN has absorbed some of the beliefs of other cultures, but >I still believe it more christian based than anything else. I think this discussion is looking at IN somewhat backwards. IN hasn't exactly "absorbed" the beliefs of other cultures. Rather, it starts with the assumption that something *like* Christian (and Islamic, and maybe Jewish) beliefs is True, and then tries to back-explain how all human religions came to exist, and how they fit into the IN cosmos. > I only mean to say that the writers >started with a christian bias. Not so much a bias as desire to lampoon, as I understand the original French version's intent. The SJGames version then twisted that back more towards the serious side, and mutated it in other ways. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:05:12 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? >>This just struck me: Celestials are supposed to be very concerned >>about interfering with the Symphony. A reality re-write strikes >>me as a very major interference. Shouldn't it cause an >>enormous disturbance? This would be another argument for doing >>Roles by forgery and imposture. > >It doesn't have to be a reality rewrite, which I agree would be a big >deal. It seems prefectly reasonable that people's memories could be >tinkered with, as well. "Oh, yeah, I remember George from high school >-- quiet guy, hardly anyone noticed him." Those kinds of trivial >memories could be added without major disturbance, I believe, probably >with a Song. > > >---Walter I've been lurking on this one to see what the positions were, and no one seems to run this the way I do. My take on the role is that it works like a Jedi mind trick. Your celestial walks up to a person and states, "I'm a Reporter for the Daily Planet". In their mind, assuming that you have the appropriate role and level, they see a press pass and other necessary credentials. Now, suppose your reporting celestial has just murdered someone at a press conference, and the police want to investigate. Well, they're aren't going to find a damn thing. The murder will go on Unsolved Mysteries and stay that way. Let's just say that I find it wasteful to have one vessel tied to a number of roles. I kind of think of this like the first Highlander movie. The part where they were tracing McLeod's past. IMC, my celestials don't leave such a trail. It is also considered Dissonant, IMC, not to clean up after a fallen comerade. So, how would the affected celestial from the beginning of this thread be handled in my game? (gets caught in inter continental traffic without the correct papers) Well, he'll sit in a holding cell (unless he gets the crafty idea of going celestial) until either: 1) He convinces the authorities that he is harmless {"I'm not a spy, I'm a...} or 2) His "friends" come and bail him out, gaining a multitude of "I owe you one"'s from the formerly incarcerated character. I like my celestials somewhat seperated from the "real world". If he's too busy trying to keep his appointments on the PTA, then he might be missing a disturbance in the Symphony. If he's spending years making sure that all his back paper work is filled so that his cover story is impenatrable, then that gives his opponents years to wreak havok in his plans. Just another view on Roles, Armand PS- I think that Relievers have better things to do than back paper work for another celestial. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:09:39 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting Walter Milliken wrote: > Also, the fact that the Superiors on both sides apparently believe in > Armaggedon, which is essentially from a human prophetic vision (as I > understand it -- my Biblical scholarship is rather weak), suggests > that prophets have some basis in fact in IN canon. Yes, it's from the Bible. In general, the idea of a climactic battle between Good and Evil and the end of the world is common to all three monotheistic religions. I think it's also found in (and may have originated from) Zoroastrianism. All three monotheisms also expect the general resurrection and judgement, at this time, and the arrival of the messiah (said arrival being a return, according to Christianity). Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:13:05 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Walter Milliken wrote: > >> g) God communicates through his prophets (& Moses was the one who saw God > >> most clearly) > > > >Considering that God doesn't even communicate with His -angels- very much, > >and that IN hasn't made any mention what so ever of prophets, I'd say this > >is highly dubious. > > There are some implications in and around Gabriel's material that > prophets are part of the IN system. > > Also, the fact that the Superiors on both sides apparently believe in > Armaggedon, which is essentially from a human prophetic vision (as I > understand it -- my Biblical scholarship is rather weak), suggests that > prophets have some basis in fact in IN canon. Hm. I guess you've got something there. OTOH, Revelations doesn't necessarily have to be actual prophecy in IN - it could be things some Soldier picked up and then started to preach when he went 'round the bend after getting too much Ethereal damage. :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:20:11 -0500 From: Bob the Dancing Monkey Subject: Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting >>d) God is the master of the universe & it is wrong to direct prayers to any >>other being. > >Certainly canon says some AAs believe this (certainly Uriel did), though >it's not clear what God's canon opinion on the matter is. It's also not >clear if God cares about prayers *at all* in canon. > This is one thing that needs to be addressed when/if someone on the list ever gets around to a specifically Protestant IN worldview. Otherwise, this could seriously muddy the waters in a big ol' way. (GM: "So, this mean ol' Calabite's making gestures towards your left calf. You feel it start to fall apart." Soldier of God: "I pray to God that She take care of the meanie. I'm humble and stuff." GM: "The Calabite turns into a violet patch. Well, so much for that Destroyer...") >>e) The messiah has not already turned up. (It should say if he had!) > >Actually, I think this one is officially Canon Doubt and Uncertainty. >And/or even the AAs aren't sure of the answer. Messiah? What messiah? I ain't read nothin' about a messiah in canon. Sure, some of the AAs believe that Christianity is right, so _something_ happened, but we haven't really gotten much of a look at Jesus of Nazareth (or any other messiah) in In Nomine. > >>f) One day, the messiah will come (iffy... but definitely not ruled out.) > Again, what messiah? >>g) At some point, God will reward the good and punish the wicked. > >It seems to be set up that way in canon, though it isn't entirely clear >whether this was intended (assuming this means anything with God), or >whether this is just how things happen to work out. The reward/punish thing seems to be pretty much taken care of in the afterlife as discussed in H&H. [O] Drew Johnson - CLA - Office of Info Tech [O] x5-4885 - http://www.econ.umn.edu/~djohnson/ [O] djohnson@cla.umn.edu - ICQ: 10800645 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:26:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> Fall of the Malakim intro, and a problem? - ---Kevin Walsh wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 11:31:20AM -0700, Graveyard Greg wrote: > > > >It won't give the Malakite dissonance, because, and I do quote: "A > > > >Malakite will never suffer an evil to live when it's his choice." > > > >David ordered him not to act, so it's not the Malakite's decision. No > > > >dissonance! > > > > I'm wondering where people are getting these quotes from, because I can't > find any link to excerpts in the bit on Fall of the Malakim on the SJG > homepage. Is this something magical that happens to people who connect > from Ireland, or who use Netscape, or who have unknowingly incurred the > displeasure of the Game? I can see excerpts from the IPG without > difficulty. The quote I used are from the rulebook. Sorry to confuse ya! Graveyard Greg _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #880 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.