From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jul 28 15:20:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA18268 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:20:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA15793 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:10:25 -0500 Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:10:25 -0500 Message-Id: <199807282010.PAA15793@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #881 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, July 28 1998 Volume 01 : Number 881 In this digest: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting IN> Questions of Religion and Truth(Monster Post!) Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting Re: IN> IN, Judaism, and more IN> Golems Re: IN> Re: your mail Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting IN> Roles and Celestial Detection Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting IN> Christian mods Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting Re: IN> Why Stop the Apocalypse? (was RE: Tether-net book) Re: IN> Kyrios in Celestial combat, remnants etc.->Golems Re: IN> Christian mods Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting Re: IN> Christian mods Re: IN> Judaism Again (Was Re: Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting) Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:15:08 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? At 11:05 28/07/98 -0800, you wrote: > >I've been lurking on this one to see what the positions were, and no one >seems to run this the way I do. > >My take on the role is that it works like a Jedi mind trick. Your >celestial walks up to a person and states, "I'm a Reporter for the Daily >Planet". In their mind, assuming that you have the appropriate role and >level, they see a press pass and other necessary credentials. > I'd go for something like that ;) I think of it this way. How well do you actually know anyone? How well do you know your next door neighbour? Maybe they make a lot of noise when they go out in the morning or you can sometimes smell burning toast from their kitchen at night, but do they _really_ exist for you in any other sense at all? How well do you know people at work? They wander past your desk occasionally but do they really exist after you leave the office. I submit that some people are just more _real_ than others. A level 1 role will be like that next door neighbour -- a few people will 'know' them, without really knowing them. Enough paperwork to support that will exist, if anyone searches, but no more. Any enquiries will find that.. no-one really knows them at all well. They simply aren't very real to anyone, except possibly other celestials/ soldiers etc. jo - ---===--- "Some people leave money for the improvement of public buildings. I can leave dynamite for the improvement of public buildings." - --- G. K. Chesterton ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:30:26 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting Bob the Dancing Monkey wrote: > This is one thing that needs to be addressed when/if someone on the > list ever gets around to a specifically Protestant IN worldview. > Otherwise, this could seriously muddy the waters in a big ol' way. Well, as a matter of fact, a few months ago, someone on the list found a Fundamentalist or highly conservative Christian variation of IN written up somewhere on the net, and posted a pointer to it. As part of the ensuing thread, I made up some more generically Christian modifications to IN, and a few specifically Catholic ones. If you are interested, I can re-post them or send them to you. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:30:37 -0400 From: "Matthew D. Gandy" Subject: IN> Questions of Religion and Truth(Monster Post!) Having seen all of the recent posts (and there have been a lot of them!) about various religions and their connections to IN canon, I've been trying to avoid this, but weighing became inevitable after a point (felt like Falling...). Disclaimer: I'm an agnostic, so I don't hold with any of the major or minor religions out there, but I'm an agnostic rather than an aethist because I feel total disbelief requires as much commitment as belief. I like religious concepts; I just don't hold with any of 'em. So, I'm approaching this from the standpoint of IN as a game with a particular worldview. There is a War between Heaven and Hell (both really post-Christ Christian ideas, although there is a lot of germinal material in Judaism and several 'pagan' religions), where angels and demons (an old concept, but the distinction between angels and demons was often more "good spirit"/'bad spirit" than anything else--more on that later) battle, usually discreetly, for the souls of humanity (either just on principle, or because Whoever Has The Most Souls Wins). The Creation Myth is only slightly different from the same myth in many religions: a god makes the universe and everything in it (the Symphony starts up, if you will), sets up Heaven and the Host, the Rebellion occurs over the whole human question (and Free Will question, a Rigidly Defined Area of Doubt and Uncertainty (RDAoDaU) in IN--see http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/faq/doubt.html), Hell is created with Lucifer at its head and the War begins in earnest. A possible spin to this is mentioned in one of the books (can't find it right now, probably The Marches), that pegs God as a jumped-up ethereal who finally amasses enough worshippers and Essence to *rewrite the Symphony* in his own image ("I've been in charge from the beginning," etc.). Since this involves time-travel (in IN?!?), the "original" timeline may never be known (except perhaps to *very* old ethereals who somehow retain memory of the original path). Again, a RDAoDaU is the nature of celestials as just "super-ethereals", since they serve the biggest ethereal of them all, and that, arguably, Heaven and Hell are built in the Marches, yet are somehow now distinct from them. Regardless, there is no mention of God as being *the* particular god of the Jews, the Christians or the Muslims. There is no mention of any of the Big Three's (Christianity, Judaism and Islam) messiahs, although prophets such as Mohammed get some attention. (My grasp of Islam is weakest of the three, so please correct any misperceptions here.) In fact, the Big Three seem to be regarded (by the Archangels, at any rate) more as institutions than as codes of behavior that must be adhered to (with the possible exception of Khalid, which is one of the reasons he may be in danger of Falling). Jesus, in particular, is off-limits from canon as another of the RDAoDaU. The reason for a lot of the confusion or deliberate blurring of history in IN seems to be simple enough: memory. Although the way celestial (or ethereal, for that matter) memory works is vague at best, there are many indications that most celestials (i.e. non-Superiors) have a limited capacity for remembering events which is usually greater than human capacity but still finite. There also seems to be something of a moratorium on the passing of information (why else would there be "myths" in Heaven, if there are celestials old enough to transmit the information to the new angels, not to mention the treasure trove that is Yves' Library?)--which we may see more of in the Songbook when Song learning is finally delineated... The real reason for this post is the book-wrangling that has been occuring lately, not over the IN books, but the various religious texts (and quasireligious texts) from which IN's writers draw for inspiration and material. This is where my agnosticism gets in the way; to me, they're books--really, really good books, in most cases, but just books. Not repositories of absolute Truth. This is where personal bias comes in: if you hold a particular faith, that you think gets short shrift in IN, then by all means, incorporate large chunks of it into your game, and/or change what exists. My suggestion goes beyond that, though. Taking a page from the inimitable Ken Hite and his Pyramid column, "Suppressed Transmissions," you can allow for multiple truths, separate from the one unknowable Truth. Even celestials, as limited beings, don't grasp the whole Truth--not even Superiors (although Yves and Kronos are certainly closer than most). All of the books out there (i.e. those you want to use) have some piece of the Truth in them, in some form. Dante popularized the concept of Purgatory, something not mentioned in IN canon. Wanna use it? OK. Satan was a mortal advisor of God, IIRC, in the Book of Job; Lucifer was a fallen angel, but not *the* Fallen Angel, whose name became confused with the Adversary. Want to have a totally different Adversary? Use Samael, as someone's PBEM game does. Do several things contradict one another in the game world? No problem--it's always us humans who got it wrong. If the Celestial Tongue, the language of Truth, cannot be spoken in the corporeal realm, how can the truth be transmitted to or recorded by us before our deaths? It's not gonna happen. IN's manipulation of history differs greatly from, say, White Wolf's World of Darkness. WoD is tied down in place to specific dates and times, altering and warping history as needed; IN mentions very few dates (745 AD springs to mind), but rather associates things with various time periods in a much looser way (the Rebellion was A Long Time Ago; Legion rose to power in the late Middle Ages/early Renaissance, around the time of Michelangelo; etc.). Why is IN so haphazard? Simple: history is just another set of books, only usefully recording bits of the Truth. Personally, I'm starting to look heavily at William Blake's weird and wacky writings. There is very little material that a Bible scholar could identify in Blake; other than some of the big names, Blake made everything else up. But he has a great flair for nature of the War and the inner conflict of humanity to be better than it behaves most days. Is it canon? Of course not. Is it useful? You bet. This approach can be easily applied to those as-yet-undetermined areas of IN, such as the nature of Eastern religions. Why is Saint synonymous with Boddhisattva? Is the Buddha just another incarnation, like Jesus, or just a super-Saint? Does all an Ethereal need is a lot of followers and a boatload of Essence to change the Symphony in his image? How do the Eastern ethereals (particularly ancestor-worshipping cultures) tie into the Big Picture? Will I ever stop asking questions and end this ridiculously long post? Yes. :) Hoping he hasn't offended anyone, but perhaps provoked some thinking, Matthew D. "Demiurge" Gandy "still looking for the face I had before the world was made" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:35:25 -0400 From: "Thomas J. Ladegard" Subject: Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting OK, I'm going to jump in here rather than directly replying to the threads I have been working in because I think Walter is doing a better job of covering my points than I am. With the possible exception of the total veracity of the Torah, I don't think IN is contradicting any of the major points of Judaic thought. I just don't agree with Anders refutation of these points. In the end, I think we're just going to have to cordially agree to disagree. - - Tom Walter Milliken wrote: > >Well, does In Nom current canon include the following (all of which define > >orthodox Jewish belief)? > >a) There is one God. > >b) He was the first being & has existed forever/ will exist forever > > These two certainly appear to be canon. > > >c) He is the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob (doesn't specifically say so but > >I think we can reasonably assume). > > Unknown, in canon, but plausible. > > >d) God is the master of the universe & it is wrong to direct prayers to any > >other being. > > Certainly canon says some AAs believe this (certainly Uriel did), though > it's not clear what God's canon opinion on the matter is. It's also not > clear if God cares about prayers *at all* in canon. > > >e) The messiah has not already turned up. (It should say if he had!) > > Actually, I think this one is officially Canon Doubt and Uncertainty. > And/or even the AAs aren't sure of the answer. > > >f) One day, the messiah will come (iffy... but definitely not ruled out.) > > Definitely iffy in canon. > > >g) At some point, God will reward the good and punish the wicked. > > It seems to be set up that way in canon, though it isn't entirely clear > whether this was intended (assuming this means anything with God), or > whether this is just how things happen to work out. > > > Now, the important bits which haven't been addressed are: > > > >g) God communicates through his prophets (& Moses was the one who saw God > >most clearly) > > Definitely canon says that Gabriel spoke to Mohammed, though at Yves > direct orders -- it's not clear if that was on Higher orders. But she's > clearly described as being God's messenger, which suggests that at least > *some* of the prophets may have heard from God, either directly or > indirectly. > > >h) Veracity of the Torah > > I would guess this is completely out of canon, though I don't know > enough about the actual requirements to be sure. > > All of that said, I think it's safe to say that IN isn't designed to be > completely coincident with *any* religious beliefs, though it contains > deliberately superficial similarities to several of them. > > ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:36:55 -0400 From: "Thomas J. Ladegard" Subject: Re: IN> IN, Judaism, and more Hart, Joanna wrote: > >There's not real reason to assume that Judaism is right either. > > True. I was just trying to present the case that IN reality is _not_ closer > to Christianity than it is to Judaism. It doesn't say anywhere 'Christ was > the messiah, the Jews are wrong.' I think I've also given some examples of > very basic tenets of Judaism which are bourne out by the background. (YMMV). > > >I don't think IN postulates any kind of religion - it postulates a certain > >kind of reality. Religion is of man, not of nature, IMO, and the IN God > >doesn't seem to care much who or what humanity worships, as long as they > >Act Good(TM). > > Again, this is closer to the Jewish viewpoint than it is to the Christian > one ;) > > *ducking for cover* Unless, of course, you are Jewish. Then there are plenty of requirements. : ) - - Tom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:43:50 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Golems Message text written by Emily K. Dresner" >You don't need to learn Hebrew to get the basic concepts of Kabbalah, but it certainly helps when you start digging around in Talmudic texts. In the mean time, I was thinking about buying that book and mining it for IN background to supplant the stuff published, but I'm leery - can anyone tell me if the sourcebook includes a complete bibliography?< It has a biblography [about 30 items] about rive pages of close typed glossary and wonder of wonders both a table of contents and a reasonably usable index. It explicitly disclaims accuracy. Note making golems is written up as an act which proves your piety. Merkavah: the summoning of Aqngels is more fun, and has a short passage on how angels should talk to humans aware of thier status. The volume only writes up 2 angels, Yofiel, Prince of the Torah and Shekiniah the female emenation of God. You can go mad studying Merkavah on your own. Adam ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:40:11 -0400 From: "Thomas J. Ladegard" Subject: Re: IN> Re: your mail Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Thomas J. Ladegard wrote: > > > You're right, Judaism doesn't have Heaven or Hell the way > > Christianity. Of course, technically, neither does the Bible. > > Popular Christian ideas of Hell, and especially those used in IN are > > mostly drawn from medieval writers, Dante in particular. > > Lots of liberties have been taken with Dante, too, of course. > His Inferno is a highly systematic system of concentric rings, > each deeper and worse than the last, organized according to the > ethical philosophy of Aristotle. (Purgatory, on the other hand, > is organized according to Christian ethical theory.) > > Also, it is worth pointing out that Christianity itself is not > uniform in the way it depicts the afterlife. Of course, there > are the off-mainstream denominations, but even within the mainstream, > there is the Orthodox Church, and according to them, if I recall > correctly, the dead pass on to a dreamlike state, where they > remain until the General Resurrection on Judgement Day, after > which they pass on to Paradise or Hell. > > > And yes, Lucifer isn't exactly Satan, the Adversary of Job (not that > > Christianity recognises a difference), but Judaism doesn't offer the > > possibility of anything being outside of God's plan. > > Neither does Christianity, though of course in Christianity, Satan > is *trying* to be outside God's plan. However, as the demon > Crowley pointed out in "Good Omens," the game God plays is not > dice (as we all know), nor poker nor chess, but, ultimately, solitaire. > > Earl All true. I was just noting the fact that much of the modern conception of Hell, from the Christian standpoint, as place of varied and assigned tortures draws from Dante, as opposed to the Bible, which mostly has a lake of fire. - - Tom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:44:07 -0400 From: "Thomas J. Ladegard" Subject: Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting I, for one, would certainly be interested in seeing them. - - Tom Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Bob the Dancing Monkey wrote: > > > This is one thing that needs to be addressed when/if someone on the > > list ever gets around to a specifically Protestant IN worldview. > > Otherwise, this could seriously muddy the waters in a big ol' way. > > Well, as a matter of fact, a few months ago, someone on the list > found a Fundamentalist or highly conservative Christian variation > of IN written up somewhere on the net, and posted a pointer to it. > As part of the ensuing thread, I made up some more generically > Christian modifications to IN, and a few specifically Catholic ones. > If you are interested, I can re-post them or send them to you. > > Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:49:14 -0400 From: "Matthew D. Gandy" Subject: IN> Roles and Celestial Detection Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: > Mercurian resonance does a passable job of that, on a Check Digit > of 3 or Higher... > > "Let's see...most people you know call you 'Arapaxus', and your geographic > point of Origin is 'Gamma Complex, Tarterus' under a Cyberpunkish Megacorp > culture, and your major interests and hobbies include 'Biocomputer > research, and the practical applications of human brains in household > appliances.' I'm guessing you're a Demon of Technology. Tell me what I've > won?" This is a good use for Roles, actually--anyone targeted by an appropriate resonance could resist with Corporeal Forces + Role Level, so that if the defender succeeded, the resonance would reveal Role information, not celestial information. I think this has probably been suggested before, but it certainly improves the utility of high-Level, high-maintenance Roles that players don't want to spent the effort or the points on. Just a thought, Matthew D. Gandy "still look for the face I had before the world was made" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:00:50 -0500 From: Bob the Dancing Monkey Subject: Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting >Well, as a matter of fact, a few months ago, someone on the list >found a Fundamentalist or highly conservative Christian variation >of IN written up somewhere on the net, and posted a pointer to it. >As part of the ensuing thread, I made up some more generically >Christian modifications to IN, and a few specifically Catholic ones. >If you are interested, I can re-post them or send them to you. Jeez, that's right. I remember now. I also recall it was done very, very sloppily (the one posted, not yours.) I actually have yours in my e-mail archive. There is an on-and-off discussion of In Nomine going on in a Christian Role-Playing Games mailing list that I recently stumbled onto a digest of. As far as I recall, the general consensus was that they didn't know what exactly to make of it - go figure. I do seem to recall mention of not one, but several variations that had been made up to deal with IN rules in a Evangelical Christian worldview. Most peculiar. Interesting though. - -Drew Johnson [O] Drew Johnson - CLA - Office of Info Tech [O] x5-4885 - http://www.econ.umn.edu/~djohnson/ [O] djohnson@cla.umn.edu - ICQ: 10800645 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:04:47 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Christian mods Thomas J. Ladegard wrote: > > I, for one, would certainly be interested in seeing them. Here they are: Earl - --- Since the topic came up, and since I'm even one of the people who asked for it, here are some modifications to IN to make it more Christian-specific: Shape up the Archangels - ----------------------- I'd reduce the amount of squabbling in Heaven, and radically reduce the sheer emnity. None of this business of Michael called Dominic the "hyena of Heaven," etc. I'd even make Dominic Archangel of Justice. Now, there's a lot of fun to be had from having contrasting Archangels or choirs get on each other's astral nerves or try each other's patience, yea even unto celestial shouting matches, so I'd allow those, but they *are* all the original Good Guys, and they should all know that about each other. Falling and Redeeming - --------------------- Christian tradition is solidly in favor of a totally final fate or doom, contrary to the canon IN idea of any angel being in danger of falling or any demon having the hope of redeeming. But there is a lot of drama to the idea of celestial characters changing state that way. So I propose a more elaborate system. Old system: Unfallen - Outcast/Renegade - Fallen New system: Blessed - Unfallen - Outcast/Renegade - Fallen - Damned The two new states, Blessed and Damned, are final and irrevocable. If you reach either of those states, you have, in effect, *used* *up* your free will and are eternally fixed in that condition. Naturally, most PCs will not start the game Blessed or Damned. (Of course, for along time, lots of people *thought* Malakim were created Blessed.) ALL Archangels are Blessed. ALL Demon Princes are Damned. The only exceptions might be Janus, Valefor, and Lilith. Typically, human souls are Blessed or Damned when they die. However, reincarnation or shunting off to the Marches is an option in more softcore Christian games. Simple dissipation on death is unlikely unless the person was, ah, Damned unlucky. Immortality - ----------- The immortality of the soul is a very firm Christian tradition. I would say only the Damned can soul-die. Everyone else just goes into Trauma as in the canonical version. If the canon would have had you soul-dead, you go into Trauma so lengthy that you'd better start a new character. This means, by the way, that Remnants are recoverable unless they are Remnants of someone Damned. They are, in effect, in walking, corporeal Trauma. Other Religions - ----------------- Obviously, if Christianity is true, or the truest of the available religions, the others are not as true, or simply false. How much this intrudes on play is a political variable the GM must tune carefully. At the hardcore end of the spectrum, if angels come in answer to prayers, they only come in answer to Christian prayers. Soldiers of God are almost always Christians. Some Soliders (of other religions) may *think* they are Soldiers of God but are really dupes of Hell. At the softcore end of the spectrum, Heaven gives everyone's prayers an equal hearing, regardless of creed, and is more equal-opportunity about Soliders of God. At the *really* softcore end, the angels and demons themselves aren't sure which religion is true, except for a very few, like Gabriel, who have been involved directly. I have a hard time imagining a Christian-specifc game in which Gabriel really started Islam, unless she was the vicitm of an infernal deception, which might be what drove her crazy. In the middle, Christians and Christian Soldiers would have only a few advantages, such as an enhanced ability to exorcise. In any Christian game, it is apporpriate for celestials to lean heavier on Christians, tempting them harder or demanding more moral effort of them. Catholic Mods - ------------- Here are some further modifications for a Catholic-specific game. Saints - -------- All Christians believe in saints -- all Christians feel they are or hope to BE saints -- but Catholicism has a large and specific body of learning about them and encourages commerce between them and the faithful still on Earth. A Catholic campaign could have Saints who are of the same power-rank as Archangels, a new type of Superior. (It could likewise have Arch Undead as infernal counterparts.) There is, perhaps, a College of Saints in parallel with the Seraphim Council, or perhaps there are Saints on the Council. Such saintly Superiors could have lesser saints and angels as PC servitors. The premiere example of such a Superior would be the Blessed Virgin Mary herself, a sort of Heavenly counterpoint to Lilith. Purgatory - ----------- In addition to the realms already in the game, we add Purgatory. The human souls in Purgatory are already Blessed, but they are cleansing themselves, refining their characters to make themselves suitable for Heaven. Dante has a detailed and beautiful description of Purgatory, but if you don't like it, you can make your own, of course. You could even make it look like Hell, but with a vastly different attitude. The people there, both human and celestial, are essentially optimistic. The place may be just as painful as Hell, but you are here to get better, and you will, and you will get out. It's like a school, or a hospital. In game terms, some souls may work off part of their purgation by coming back into the Corporeal realm to do good deeds or undo the bad things they did in life. This opens the possibilities of "saints" who are less saintly and more mundane than full, graduated Saints, and of ghost stories about expiational hauntings. Sacraments - ----------- Being baptized, or being in a state of grace after confession, could offer some degree of protection against infernals or ethereals. The Host might ward off infernals or inimical ethereals, as in many old tales. Church Organization - ------------------- The canon writeup on Soldiers of God already includes a division working out of the Vatican. Such things could be multiplied, and whole new Black Ops divisions of the Church could be imagined up, to interface with the IN celestials. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:23:27 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting Bob the Dancing Monkey wrote: > There is an on-and-off discussion of In Nomine going on in a Christian > Role-Playing Games mailing list that I recently stumbled onto a digest > of. > As far as I recall, the general consensus was that they didn't know > what exactly to make of it - go figure. I do seem to recall mention > of not one, but several variations that had been made up to deal with > IN rules in a Evangelical Christian worldview. > > Most peculiar. Interesting though. Could you give a pointer to this digest? Thanks. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:08:51 +0300 From: Yossi Gurvitz Subject: Re: IN> Why Stop the Apocalypse? (was RE: Tether-net book) At 03:08 PM 7/28/98 , you wrote: Hello. >I wasn't clear last night, apparently. What I meant was, why advert the >apocalypse when it's so much more interesting just to go ahead and run it >all the way through to it's messy, bloody, nasty conclusion. My GM created a convulted plot, which placed us (i.e., the angelic PCs) in a very awkward position: we had to prove to a hoary, ancient Elohite of the Deluge that humanity was not corrupt and that there's no reason on earth to bring a second deluge (the Elohite's twin, now a Habbalah, murdered Tshuva, the Angel of the Rainbow). The Elohite (I grew to hate his guts) gave us a mission: to prove humanity was not guilty of seven sins. We ran around trying to preserve humanity. Much more interesting and satisfying than setting fire to the world. Yours, Yossi ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:54:30 +0300 From: Yossi Gurvitz Subject: Re: IN> Kyrios in Celestial combat, remnants etc.->Golems At 05:14 AM 7/28/98 , you wrote: Hello, Em. >> Look up "Kabbala" for Ars Magica. It deals with Mythic Judaism and >> has a chapter on golems. It's an excellent accessory, one of the best >> I've seen. >> Short of learning Hebrew and studying the Sefer Yetzira, it's the best >> you can do. Oh, and there was a very good X-Files chapter about a >> golem, too. >You don't need to learn Hebrew to get the basic concepts of Kabbalah, but >it certainly helps when you start digging around in Talmudic texts. In That's OK, I know it already, and I've already done my share of Talmudic digging :-) >the mean time, I was thinking about buying that book and mining it for IN >background to supplant the stuff published, but I'm leery - can anyone >tell me if the sourcebook includes a complete bibliography? That depends on what you call "complete". Half of page 160 is dedicated to a bibliography, and it includes such luminaries as Cecil Roth, Gershom Sholem, Moshe Idel (a book about golems), and Abba Eban, to mention a few. That's good enough for me. And it does include a section about the summoning of angels... >Thanks! Any day. Yours, Yossi ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 98 15:33 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Christian mods >ALL Archangels are Blessed. ALL Demon Princes are Damned. The only >exceptions might be Janus, Valefor, and Lilith. I think I might add Nybbas to the possibly-un-Damned list; he's a very young Prince, and may not yet have sunk to his final depths. And, as DPs go, he's not a particularly nasty one, nor does his Word dictate a natural bias to the infernal. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 98 15:36 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting >Hm. I guess you've got something there. OTOH, Revelations doesn't >necessarily have to be actual prophecy in IN - it could be things some >Soldier picked up and then started to preach when he went 'round the bend >after getting too much Ethereal damage. :) Point. I haven't seen enough of FT yet to be sure whether it says anything on the topic -- whether this is something that God told all the AAs long ago, or whether it's just something a reliable human prophet came up with, and they all bought into, or something in between. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 98 15:47 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting >This is one thing that needs to be addressed when/if someone on the list >ever gets around to a specifically Protestant IN worldview. Otherwise, >this could seriously muddy the waters in a big ol' way. (GM: "So, this >mean ol' Calabite's making gestures towards your left calf. You feel it >start to fall apart." Soldier of God: "I pray to God that She take care >of the meanie. I'm humble and stuff." GM: "The Calabite turns into a >violet patch. Well, so much for that Destroyer...") Yeah. I've been thinking that something might ought to be done along these lines with "mundane" humans and Divine Interventions, perhaps. Might work with Soldiers and Saints, too. Humans need a little beefing up, after all.... Perhaps allow a roll after a "good" human prays for help, and if you get a 111, something happens. Maybe not *that* miraculous, but something that will at least help. Of course, "bad" humans could also get assists on a 666 in a similar way. I was figuring that if this went in, only one side or the other would intervene for a given person, so "good" people would get no result from 666, and "bad" ones would get nothing from a 111. People in the middle, with no outstanding goodness or badness, would either get no result, or might be more likely to get Infernal Interventions -- as temptation. >>>e) The messiah has not already turned up. (It should say if he had!) >> >>Actually, I think this one is officially Canon Doubt and Uncertainty. >>And/or even the AAs aren't sure of the answer. > >Messiah? What messiah? I ain't read nothin' about a messiah in canon. >Sure, some of the AAs believe that Christianity is right, so _something_ >happened, but we haven't really gotten much of a look at Jesus of Nazareth >(or any other messiah) in In Nomine. The nature of Jesus is official Canon Doubt and Uncertainty, as best I know. And I don't think it's true that any AAs *believe* Christianity -- they just promote it among humans. The AAs presumably have *some* sort of faith in God, but I'm not sure it's exactly a religion. >>>g) At some point, God will reward the good and punish the wicked. >> >>It seems to be set up that way in canon, though it isn't entirely clear >>whether this was intended (assuming this means anything with God), or >>whether this is just how things happen to work out. > >The reward/punish thing seems to be pretty much taken care of in the >afterlife as discussed in H&H. Yes, but all that's actually done is to send "bad" people to Hell, and "good" ones to Heaven. What happens once they get there is really up to the local inhabitants, or so it seems. So it's not clear if God *planned* this, or the punishment part just evolves naturally from the nature of the beings committed to Hell. (Though I believe that a strict Christian interpretation would be that being denied access to Heaven is the biggest part of the punishment.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:48:14 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Christian mods Walter Milliken wrote: > I think I might add Nybbas to the possibly-un-Damned list; he's a very > young Prince, and may not yet have sunk to his final depths. And, as > DPs go, he's not a particularly nasty one, nor does his Word dictate a > natural bias to the infernal. Okay. The main idea is that the list should be short. Probably the list should be known only to the GM. The presumptions among the celestials should probably be that all AAs are Blessed and all DPs Damned, without exception. Yves and Kronos would presumably know better, but are notoriously tight-lipped. I didn't provide any mechanic for shifting from Unfallen to Blessed or Fallen to Damned, either. I'd make it straight roleplaying. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:06:59 -0700 From: "E Kumar" Subject: Re: IN> Judaism Again (Was Re: Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting) Satan actually means " enemy " so are you sure about the nickname thing? - ---------- > From: Julian Breen > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: IN> Judaism Again (Was Re: Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting) > Date: Tuesday, July 28, 1998 6:57 AM > > > >> >In general, any credence given to Christianity can also be applied > >> >to Judiasm, since Christianity affirms essentially everything > >> >Judaism does. > >> > > >> > >> I understand what you're saying, Earl, but until we see Judaism in > >> canon...Then I stand by my comment. > >> > > > >It won't happen - seeing straight Judaism in canon, I mean. Jewish > >folklore, maybe. Jewish history, or at least Judges, Samuel, Kings, > >Chronicles and a prophet or two, well, possibly but I'm not holding my > >breath. But Judaism itself? In Nomine is basically > >Persia/Zoroastarianistic with nice Christian overtones, it's so far away > >from Judaism that it's in another universe entirely. > > > I feel a strong sense of deja-vu, Em ;) > > History is more along the lines of what I had in mind by this anyhow. > A little canon on such things as the patronage of the Jews would have > been nice. After all, if Christianity shares common beliefs with > Judaism, and Judaism predates Christianity, Heaven must have had a > finger in there somewhere. > > > All of the religions have got bits and pieces right and wrong. > As Jon F. Zeigler once posited on these lists, maybe the reason that the > Hebrews see Heaven as radically different to how it actually _is_ in the > game is because they were introduced to it pre-Fall? _Or_ maybe the > Prophets were shown dreams (post-Fall) of what Heaven used to be like > and their outlook developed around this. Would that be an acceptable > explanation? > > (Side note: Could this be why angels don't like referring to Lucifer as > Satan? It was a nickname for him that he acquired before the Fall, and > thus brings back painful memories of the beginnings of upset in > Heaven.) > > > > -- > Julian > jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:20:52 -0700 From: "E Kumar" Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? Jedi mind trick! I like it and it does have a more powerful *role *( pardon the pun ) with far less disturbance, if any. Would you still allow characters to purchase a role in game while the SHTF!? - ---------- > From: Armand > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? > Date: Tuesday, July 28, 1998 12:05 PM > > >>This just struck me: Celestials are supposed to be very concerned > >>about interfering with the Symphony. A reality re-write strikes > >>me as a very major interference. Shouldn't it cause an > >>enormous disturbance? This would be another argument for doing > >>Roles by forgery and imposture. > > > >It doesn't have to be a reality rewrite, which I agree would be a big > >deal. It seems prefectly reasonable that people's memories could be > >tinkered with, as well. "Oh, yeah, I remember George from high school > >-- quiet guy, hardly anyone noticed him." Those kinds of trivial > >memories could be added without major disturbance, I believe, probably > >with a Song. > > > > > >---Walter > > I've been lurking on this one to see what the positions were, and no one > seems to run this the way I do. > > My take on the role is that it works like a Jedi mind trick. Your > celestial walks up to a person and states, "I'm a Reporter for the Daily > Planet". In their mind, assuming that you have the appropriate role and > level, they see a press pass and other necessary credentials. > > Now, suppose your reporting celestial has just murdered someone at a press > conference, and the police want to investigate. Well, they're aren't going > to find a damn thing. The murder will go on Unsolved Mysteries and stay > that way. > > Let's just say that I find it wasteful to have one vessel tied to a number > of roles. I kind of think of this like the first Highlander movie. The > part where they were tracing McLeod's past. IMC, my celestials don't > leave such a trail. It is also considered Dissonant, IMC, not to clean up > after a fallen comerade. > > So, how would the affected celestial from the beginning of this thread be > handled in my game? (gets caught in inter continental traffic without the > correct papers) Well, he'll sit in a holding cell (unless he gets the > crafty idea of going celestial) until either: 1) He convinces the > authorities that he is harmless {"I'm not a spy, I'm a...} or 2) His > "friends" come and bail him out, gaining a multitude of "I owe you one"'s > from the formerly incarcerated character. > > I like my celestials somewhat seperated from the "real world". If he's too > busy trying to keep his appointments on the PTA, then he might be missing a > disturbance in the Symphony. If he's spending years making sure that all > his back paper work is filled so that his cover story is impenatrable, then > that gives his opponents years to wreak havok in his plans. > > Just another view on Roles, > Armand > > PS- I think that Relievers have better things to do than back paper work > for another celestial. > ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #881 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.