From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Jul 29 13:15:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19441 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:15:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id NAA05001 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:07:53 -0500 Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:07:53 -0500 Message-Id: <199807291807.NAA05001@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #883 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, July 29 1998 Volume 01 : Number 883 In this digest: Re: IN> Sure-fire celestial detector? Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Singing Question IN> Meggido Re: IN> Judaism Again (Was Re: Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting) Re: IN> Miltonian IN Re: IN> Judaism Again (Was Re: Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting) Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting IN> Armageddon (the location) Re: IN> Armageddon (the location) Re: IN> More on tethers (just a little though) Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? Re: IN> Angelic memory(sizable post) Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Armageddon (the location) Re: IN> More on tethers (just a little though) Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:32:12 +0200 (MET DST) From: Jasper Reijer Floor Subject: Re: IN> Sure-fire celestial detector? On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: > At 2:32 AM -0400 7/28/98, E Kumar wrote: > >Celestial or not, but how about wether they're infernal or not? > >No obvious behaviour statements please. My PC's had an Impudite 'friend' > > Mercurian resonance does a passable job of that, on a Check Digit > of 3 or Higher... Not in my campaign. You just get the info on the role. However, low level roles are easier to pierce. However when one of my players tried this on a demon they got only the knowledge that they were dealing with a well-known reporter (basically, that role is written into the symphony, and as such should resonate to angelic (demonic) attunements). Though they did have reason to suspect, since the demon was being played by a guest in my campaign (a demon who happens to be a habalite of the game). Now a kyrio of Gabriel wanted to know if he enjoyed being cruel to others (a tough call really) so I asked the person playing the demon, and he said he didn't enjoy inflicting pain (he didn't regret it, its just his essential job). The demon has reverted to gm control as the guest left, but the players are pretty sure that he is an angel working for dominic >:-} mvg, Jasper Floor Can we ever have too much of a good thing? Miguel de Cervantes -Don Quixote Chap. vi ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:00:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting > Hmm, interesting. I'd also like to point out that Armageddon is a place, > not an occurence, this sort of makes you wonder what is so special about > that particular place. Could there be a tether there? I seem to recall > that Armageddon is in Israel, and that it isn't very exciting to see (a > hill in a dessert, or something). Anyone know anymore? Meggido is a place, yes. It was a walled city which was sieged and taken my Thothmosis III during his campaigns up to Syria in an effort to extend the Egyptian empire of the time. He cut all supply lines, and surrounded the city with chariots until the populance starved. At the time, since Meggido seemed so powerful it was unable to fall, the belief was that if it did the world would end... thus the word "Armageddon" which is Assyrian for "The destruction of Meggido." The Egyptians held the city clear through the Amenhoteps. It's one of the few war story pieces that are fun to translate. Today, it's just a large pile of rock. - - Em Current Quote: In other news Mislead Archangel of Stone, David, has been seen wearing various articles of clothing apparently fashioned from potholders. He has been quoted as saying "I've never worn clothing before, but these... What do you call 'em? Potholders... are really comfy. I'm no longer cold!" He now, stubbornly, refuses to take them off. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:01:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting Correction, it's Hebrew, not Assyrian. I'm messed up on Benadryl today. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:04:03 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting Jasper Reijer Floor wrote: > Hmm, interesting. I'd also like to point out that Armageddon is a > place, not an occurence, this sort of makes you wonder what is so > special about that particular place. Could there be a tether there? > I seem to recall that Armageddon is in Israel, and that it isn't > very exciting to see (a hill in a dessert, or something). Anyone > know anymore? I believe Armageddon is Har Megiddo, a valley in Israel. It has been a battlefield many times. I believe it significant here because it was the place where King Josiah fell. Drawing on very faint memory, I think the tale goes something like this (other list members can probably correct me): King Josiah was a member of a reforming party, which included the prophet Jeremiah, who were trying to bring Israel back into strict monotheism after one of their periodic slides toward polytheism and idolatry. They were not succeeding, or at least they did not have time to succeed, before Israel was conquered by the expanding Babylonian Empire. Josiah fell in battle at Har Megiddo, and Israel, or at least the prominent and influential part, was led away into exile in Babylon and its territories. Jeremiah said this was punishment for Israel's idolatry. The final battle at Armageddon is, in a way, a re-match, where the now-purified forces of Light will finally vanquish the kings of the Earth. ...If I remember correctly. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 07:10:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Jayson Howell Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade - ---David Edelstein wrote: > > >>>That's drawing it a bit far, I think. Was the unicorn worshipped? > Mermaids? Dragons? If they were, so were many ordinary animals, and Uriel > didn't seem to have anything against them.<<< > > > Uriel went after the mythical beasts because (according to him) they > weren't natural creatures, but were created as a result of > ethereal/celestial meddling. There's also some mention in Night Music that these beasts were being used all too often in diabolical plots. I infer this to mean that as Christianity swept through Europe, and the attitudes of the people changed to view the creatures more as supernatural terrors than simply powerful beasts, their role in the Symphony came into question. Maybe not, but it seems that the Middle Ages' changing attitudes are more to blame than a defacto reason for not having unicorns and dragons in the game. -Jayson _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 07:28:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Jayson Howell Subject: Re: IN> Singing Question Personally, I prefer the somewhat ambiguous nature of verbal components as they stand now. Should canon material feel a need to define them, my first vote would be for a sort of "pidgen celestial" as Elizabeth was mentioning. I'd accept letting the characters choose, grudgingly. -Jayson - ---David Edelstein wrote: > > >Where does it mention components of a song anyhow? > > Pg 47, main rulebook.<<< > > > And p. 00 of the Songbook! :) > > (P. 00 meaning that layout is just beginning, but the playtest drafts > should be appearing on Pyramid Online Real Soon Now. And thanks for > bringing up the question of language & singing, I'll have to think about > whether and how to address that in the Songbook....personally, I assume it > can be any language the singer wants to sing in.) > > -David (editor of the Songbook, which will probably have some fancy Latin > name ala the Liber Reliquarum) > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:35:28 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Meggido I thought I could count on Emily to set me straight, Benedryl or not. It wasn't the Babylonians, but, as Emily said, the Egyptians who famously fought at Megiddo. But it *was* Josiah who famously died there, and who was a reformer allied with the prophet Jeremiah. Josiah at Megiddo is described at 2 Chronicles 35 and 2 Kings 23. Here is a passage from the latter: "While Josiah was king, Pharaoh Neco king of Egypt went up to the Euphrates River to help the king of Assyria. King Josiah marched out to meet him in battle, but Neco faced him and killed him at Megiddo." The Babylonian Exile happened later in Jeremiah's career, after a couple of Josiah's sons had been put up as puppet kings. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:47:15 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Judaism Again (Was Re: Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting) In a message dated 7/28/98 7:46:54 PM, akira@sprint.ca writes: >Mark wrote: > >the > >implied > >> meaning of "Prosecuting Attorney." It's a job title more than anything > >else. > >> Of course, Lucifer means "Light-bearer," and is also a title. > >> > >> Just a clarification, > >> > > > >Uh, job-titles? So Mrs. Carpenter down the street is a craftsman? > >And Mr. Baker is a chef? No. But at some point, Mrs. Carpenter's husband's family was known for its woodworking. And Mr. Baker's ancestors were bread-makers. Names have meaning, and had more meaning at the point at which these names came into being. We're talking about spiritual creatures, here. Their names are directly related to what humans believe their abilities/inclinations are. Ask Emily Dresner about the names of the Egyptian gods and goddesses, and how the relationships between naming and job function worked to see a "sideways" version. My point was clarified somewhat by Earl, but here's my specific take on it: Satan/Shai'tan is the Accuser. He is a celestial prosecuting attorney, but essentially on God's side (Think Dominic for the earlier nice-guy version or a Habbalite of the Game for the current Christian version.) On the other hand is Lucifer, a different creature entirely. The passage in, if I'm remembering correctly, Ezekiel, gives several titles to an individual who has, according to the prophet, come under God's wrath. These titles include: Shining One (KJV left the Vulgate's 'Lucifer' intact...), Praising One, Son of the Morning (these two taken together were the subject of an earlier letter), Guardian Cherub, Walker Between the Holy (or Heavenly) Fires, and, most interestingly, King of Tyre. The reason King of Tyre is the most interesting title for the mysterious Lucifer is because the human rulers of Tyre were princes, not kings. However, there is some limited evidence that one of the titles of one of the gods of Tyre, Moloch (your spelling will definitely vary), was "Lord and King." Add to this that Moloch was a fire-god whose images included furnaces in which human bodies were burned (Mind you, the jury is still out on whether it was human sacrifice or cremation...) and you get an image that I find highly suggestive. It could be that, in an In Nomine campaign where God is a jumped-up celestial, Lucifer started out as cofounder of the Celestial system. (Talk about a truly Zoroastrian/Manichaeist campaign!) Add to this that the Serpent of the Eden narrative and the Dragon (who is identified as Satan) of the Revelation of St. John may or may not be the same being, and I get a truly confusing picture of who or what may be in charge of Hellcrew. Mark (Just muddying the waters further...) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:05:26 +0200 (MET DST) From: Jasper Reijer Floor Subject: Re: IN> Miltonian IN On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > On Tue, Jul 28, 1998 at 04:28:53AM -0400, Pete Overton wrote: > > >PS. On another topic, has anyone thought about trying to adapt IN to > > >Milton's Paradise Lost? You'd have to change the names/ characteristics of > > >the demon princes and the geography of Hell but it might be quite > > >interesting to do... > > > For one thing, you'd have to make all demons friends with one another (to > the extent that demons can actually be friends). I distinctly recall a > passage in which it was stated that demons are loyal to the Rebellion and > to Lucifer, and don't fight with one another. Since I don't have the book > with me, or even within ten miles of me, I can't quote it exactly. This > takes much of the fun out of Malphas (although, of course, he wasn't > mentioned in it). IIRC, of the game Princes, Asmodeus, Belial and Mammon > get mention in Paradise Lost, and Belial is very different. Looked it up at project guttenberg, but I could onlyfind the following. Of course, I may have missed something, but you could interpret the whole thing as demons working together because they have need of strength. They couldn't really agree on what it was that needed to be done, at first anyway. (btw, I only scanned the first 1.5 books, but I don't believe it should be in further than that) So SATAN spake, and him BEELZEBUB Thus answer'd. Leader of those Armies bright, Which but th' Omnipotent none could have foyld, If once they hear that voyce, their liveliest pledge Of hope in fears and dangers, heard so oft In worst extreams, and on the perilous edge Of battel when it rag'd, in all assaults Their surest signal, they will soon resume New courage and revive, though now they lye Groveling and prostrate on yon Lake of Fire, As we erewhile, astounded and amaz'd, No wonder, fall'n such a pernicious highth. mvg, Jasper Floor "For words are wise men's counters,--they do but reckon by them; but they are the money of fools." Thomas Hobbes - The Leviathan. Part i. Chap. iv ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:06:58 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Judaism Again (Was Re: Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting) MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: > However, there is some limited evidence that one > of the titles of one of the gods of Tyre, Moloch (your spelling will > definitely vary), was "Lord and King." The way I heard it, "Moloch" is a variation on "melek," which *means* "king." (Notice that, in the IN book, the section on the Malakites is subtitled "The Kings.") Likewise, "Baal" or "Bel" means "Lord." Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:12:38 -0700 From: Dale Friesen Subject: Re: IN> Eastern religion in the In-Nomine setting Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Jasper Reijer Floor wrote: > >> Hmm, interesting. I'd also like to point out that Armageddon is a >> place, not an occurence, this sort of makes you wonder what is so >> special about that particular place. Could there be a tether there? >> I seem to recall that Armageddon is in Israel, and that it isn't >> very exciting to see (a hill in a dessert, or something). Anyone >> know anymore? > >I believe Armageddon is Har Megiddo, a valley in Israel. It has >been a battlefield many times. I believe it significant here >because it was the place where King Josiah fell. I think it was also significant because it sat at the crossroads of the trade routes between Egypt and the rest of the middle east. If you controlled Megiddo, you controlled trade with Egypt. At least, that's the way I seem to remember it. Any opinions expressed are mine and not necessarily the book store's. Dale Friesen Sysadmin Bolen Books, Inc Victoria, BC Canada dfriesen@amtsgi.bc.ca http://www.bolen.bc.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:29:38 PDT From: "Doug Muir" Subject: IN> Armageddon (the location) I know of yet another version of Armageddon/Har Meggido's significance. An earlier poster mentioned that it was where the Pharaoh Thutmose captured a fortified town. Well, according to _some_ historians, this was the world's *very first* battlefield... to wit, the first place where two large (several thousand men), well-equipped, professional armies, fielded by nations rather than tribes or city-states, fought until one of them was thoroughly defeated. There are a few earlier batttles in the history books, but you could argue with a straight face that none of them were big or decisive enough to deserve the name. So the world's *last* battle will be fought, at least in part, on the same site as its first one. I've always liked this explanation, but am not 100% sure of its veracity, so if there's anyone who knows for sure, please advise. Doug M. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:22:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Armageddon (the location) > An earlier poster mentioned that it was where the Pharaoh Thutmose > captured a fortified town. Well, according to _some_ historians, this > was the world's *very first* battlefield... to wit, the first place > where two large (several thousand men), well-equipped, professional > armies, fielded by nations rather than tribes or city-states, fought > until one of them was thoroughly defeated. There are a few earlier > batttles in the history books, but you could argue with a straight face > that none of them were big or decisive enough to deserve the name. So > the world's *last* battle will be fought, at least in part, on the same > site as its first one. Menkheppre Thothmosis. Actually, the name is spelled Dhwty-ms, so I blame the Greeks who couldn't spell Egyptian words to save their souls. It was not the world's first true battlefield by a long shot. When I was walking down to get a sammich I hallucinated through six or seven references to other battlefields between countries. If you want to stretch your imagination, you can even say that Menes unification of the nomes of Upper and Lower Egypt in 3200 BC was a full battlefield between two fully formed nations. What it was, was the world's first siege which involved cutting off of necessary supply lines to choke the enemy's army and wait comfortably outside the walls of the city until the people were forced to surrender or starve. Once the inhabitants became desperate, they charged into Thothmosis's waiting army, where he merrily slaughtered them all and took the city, and consequently, the trade route he was after. It may have also been the world's first effective use of chariots on the battlefield, as they were brought into Egypt by the Hyksos during the 2nd Intermediate Period. The historical transcription of the battle is a wonderful piece to translate - straightforward and full of gore. I remember working through some of the battles with LEGOs. "Eat my minifig justice!" As for Thothmosis III himself, he was one of the world's first military genuses. He was a strong king, and he had a control over his army that the world had never seen. He pushed the Egyptian holdings all the way down to Cush (Ethiopia) and up almost to the Tigris/Euphrates. Not bad for a short little fat man with a pot belly. This Empire served to make Thothmosis IV, and subsequently the Amenhoteps through Akhenaton (who lost the Empire) extremely wealthy, and leant heavily to a renewed age of building. - - Em, who clearly needs a new hobby ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:49:01 +0100 (BST) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> More on tethers (just a little though) On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Walter Milliken wrote: > [Gabriel] can have only one active volcano Tether at a time, > unless it's a long-term volcano (like Mauna Loa in Hawaii), in which > case it may be a permanent Tether, since it's such an important > instance. Since most volcanoes are very short-lived, one volcano Tether > at a time isn't really much of a problem. Umm... Most *eruptions* are short lived. Many volcanoes spend most of their time dormant. But a volcano doesn't cease to exist just because it isn't on CNN. So unless Gabriel can only turn any *erupting* volcano into a tether, there is still a contradiction. I like the idea of temporary tethers though, especially since it solves the Janus Seneschal problem - Janus might *only* have temporary and mobile tethers. 'Seneschal of The Point on Earth with Highest Windspeed'. Works for me. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:44:03 -0700 From: "E Kumar" Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? Previous posting said: Enough paperwork to support that will exist, > >> if anyone searches, but no more. Any enquiries will find that.. no-one > >> really knows them at all well. They simply aren't very real to anyone, > >> except possibly other celestials/ soldiers etc I don't totally go for the paperwork thing because I figure celestials have been impersonating humans for a lot longer than SIN numbers have been around. So in c.1650 angel Jo Blo wants to be a Noble. Level 4 status 5. Does he, in those times, have a deed that says he owns land previously belonging to someone else? Probably not because that would just cause all sorts of political problems. So to be consistent it would probably be fine that everyone is like " Our lord ?, oh sure he's a great guy. Owns lots of land. Does he have paperwork to proove it? Of, course not, he's our lord!" So if humans don't have cause to disbelieve something they probably won't. ( Unless they're a conspiracy follower.) Most people would just accept that they've always had a brother! If you wanted to incorporate rules; you could initially make a will role versus the role of the character in question. But even if they succeded in going past the charade, wouldn't it be rude? " You're not my brother! Who are you?" " Bobby, that hurt my feelings. Are you mad at me? " See , it's okay, and no paperwork! ( I always find questions that arise within a game that buy into our current bureaucracy annoying anyhow. Kinda like in real life! ) Akira--- - ---------- > From: Armand > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? > Date: Wednesday, July 29, 1998 12:44 AM > > >On Tue, Jul 28, 1998 at 07:15:08PM +0100, Jo Hart wrote: > >> >My take on the role is that it works like a Jedi mind trick. Your > >> >celestial walks up to a person and states, "I'm a Reporter for the Daily > >> >Planet". In their mind, assuming that you have the appropriate role and > >> >level, they see a press pass and other necessary credentials. > >> > > >> > >> I'd go for something like that ;) > >> > >In my mind, if they have the press pass and other necessary credentials, > >the person will tend to believe them. If not, the person will or will not > >believe them, depending on how suspicious the person is. > > My wife and I have a theory. We call it the First Barrier theory. In > essence, if you make it past the first barrier in any situation, then > proceed in a rational fashion; you can get either in or out of just about > anywhere. Again, just a theory. > > > >> I submit that some people are just more _real_ than others. A level 1 role > >> will be like that next door neighbour -- a few people will 'know' them, > >> without really knowing them. Enough paperwork to support that will exist, > >> if anyone searches, but no more. Any enquiries will find that.. no-one > >> really knows them at all well. They simply aren't very real to anyone, > >> except possibly other celestials/ soldiers etc. > >> > >This makes sense, kind of. But it doesn't work everywhere, and there is a > >certain amount of knowledge that's required. If you're asked where you're > >from often, and you give a consistent answer, you're eventually going to > >meet people who come from where you claim to be from. This can cause > >problems. > > > > I see this being a really important issue in beaureaucratic games, but I > don't like running things that way. I also like the idea of celstials > being more than just spirits inhabitting bodies. I think that there should > be Distubance free ways for them to interact with humans without making > them "humans". > > For a moment though, think of how long it would take a celestial to plant a > Role 3. First of all, you need the paper work: birth cert., some form of > state/national ID, school records, credit reports, tax forms, > degree/diploma, etc. This doesn't include optional forms: car/house > titles, club memberships, signed credit card receipts, awards, video store > membership, etc. > > Now that we have made a life on paper, it needs human interaction. First, > family: Mom, Dad, assorted sibs, aunts, uncles, etc. Second, friends and > associates: classmates (k - ?), kid next door, nutty neighbor, Mr. > Whipple, Mr. Wilson, Brad from the office, first kiss, first black eye, > boss, etc. > > How much time have you alloted? Personally, I tally up at least twenty > years. Now, your Malakim has spent 20 years making a Disturbance free > Role. 20 years have gone by. Say good-bye to those 20 years in which no > demon was punished beyond the sound thrashing he gave the Tompson boy after > that one dance. > > I just like my celestials to get to the work that they were created for. > If I was running a game like an FBI investigation, then I might want a more > paper based role system for my characters. However, for now, they just > need a reason to be able to requisition 40 cc's of elephant tranquilizer > and a dart gun. > > Armand > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:28:04 -0700 From: "E Kumar" Subject: Re: IN> Angelic memory(sizable post) I think Angels had a much easier time with memory when things were predictable and basic during thr pre-Eden days! They used to tend to stars, watch grass grow, and lend strenth to volcanoes and other such symphonic actions. So they were like gardeners tending to their shrubberies and flowers and turn the soil evey now and again. Their duties were basic ( for an Angel, I mean I couldn't tend a star ) and didn't really rely on memory although they do have it. Then along comes humans who are at times like a weed and at others like a flower and at others like the pollenating insectsa and at others . . . you get the point. This sort of mult-faceted species would be very intriguing, confusing and even irritating to a garderners ( read as Angel ) perspective. How do you control the growth of it? Is it good or bad for everything else? Should we allow it to grow or weed it out? And how come it never responds to the same stimuli twice the same way? etc, etc . . . It would after a while become somewhat blurred in the mind of Angels about the nature if it's garden ( symphony ) because of the humans role in it. The same methods don't work for different humans in the same situation. Humans don't make good subjects under the old rules and they even defy scientific method! ie. a)Angels pokes human- response: "sorry I bumped into you" b) Angel pokes human- response: " Hey you @#%$" followed by a fist in the face. So with all these variables and subjective responses, it's no wonder God doesn't want Angels to remember every little thing. It wouldn't be appropriate to use a past method in the present circumstance. In fact it normally doesn't do well to use the same method twice_ ever, where humans are concerned. Thank God! Akira---------- > From: Doug Muir > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: IN> Angelic memory > Date: Tuesday, July 28, 1998 9:26 PM > > > > > >> The reason for a lot of the confusion or deliberate blurring of > history in > >>IN seems to be simple enough: memory. Although the way celestial (or > ethereal, > >>for that matter) memory works is vague at best, there are many > indications that > >>most celestials (i.e. non-Superiors) have a limited capacity for > remembering > >>events which is usually greater than human capacity but still finite. > > > >However, there is a canon statement (I think it's in the APG's history > >section) that even Superiors can't remember back clearly more than a > few > >thousand years or so. > > > >Angelic memory, at least, is clearly not perfect even over the shorter > >term, since otherwise Jean's Seraphim attunement would be pretty much > >unnecessary. > > Yes, I remember being surprised by this when I first read the APG. But > it actually could make sense, and does allow the GM to add some > interesting blurry areas to his campaign. > > Angels are immortal, and some of them have been around for a long, long > time. And, you know, they're (quite literally) artificial > intelligences. It stands to reason that they would have a very large > but ultimately limited "hard drive". > > Mind you, Yves' speech in the APG intro seems to be going a bit farther > than that... he seems to be suggesting that there has been some > *deliberate* fuzzing of angelic recollection, at least in the last few > thousand years. Well -- perhaps some angels *could* remember everything > since the Paleozoic, in day-by-day detail... but they are simply too > alien and distracted to deal very effectively with humanity, or the War. > And perhaps it's *necessary* for an immortal to have a bad memory, lest > the gradual accumulation of trivia lead to madness. > > Of course, the forgetting is (at least partly) what allows the older > angels to disagree about basic matters like free will and the role of > humanity. Maybe they all knew the right answers once, back at the very > beginning... > > Some thoughts/plot seeds: > > What if the Library is the angelic mass memory? You may not remember if > you were in Prague in the winter of 1619... but you put the relevant > information there before you forgot it, and a search should turn it up. > This might explain why the Library has developed a mind of its own. Of > course, if this is the case, then people might be tempted to try > altering the stored memories there... > > What if it's memory -- an inability to forgot -- that's driving Gabriel > around the bend? > > What if some angels get addicted to forgetting? You might end up with > the occasional amnesiac celestial -- not a remnant, but a full-powered > angel or demon who has simply forgotten who and what he is. What a > Kyriotate or Ofanite might *think* he is, based on available evidence, > could make an interesting subplot... > > In a less extreme form, something like this may be what has happened to > Eli. Perhaps millenia of experience were making it ever more difficult > for him to manifest his Word, so he simply scrubbed 99% of his memories > out of his head, and woke up in a latte bar somewhere. -- If this works > for you, here's a plot seed: Eli's lost memories are stored somewhere, > perhaps the Library, perhaps somewhere much stranger. Someone tries to > convince the PCs to retrieve them. But is the Someone an angel of Eli > who wants his Superior back on the job, an angel of some other Superior > who thinks Eli made an awful mistake, or a hostile party, angel or > demon, who thinks that Eli was *right*, and that ten billion years of > information will petrify him and render him incapable of any sort of > creative action? Played properly, a party of PCs could easily find > themselves working for the wrong side, all unknowing... > > Anyone else have any thoughts on this? > > > Doug M. > dougmuir@hotmail.com > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:03:53 -0700 From: "E Kumar" Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Personally I believe Uriels represented his word so well that god realized it had no place in the symphony ( except as horses names). Purity by its nature is 'free of sin'. So as everything is a part of God and Uriel was trying to destroy elements of God he was basically cutting out the cancer without regards to the host entity. Uriel was really purifying God who is unpure. ( Don't want to insult anyone here, I'm talking about the game). So He took him out of the heavens and anywhere near the corporeal realm because if he really wanted to 'purify' everything there would be nothing left! If you don't agree with any of that then at least think of what would have happened if the Seraphim Council had voted and cast Uriel into hell! Game over! So either way Uriel was an oversight by God . An AA who had far too much power and so God remedied it. Will Tahariel gain the word of Purity? Maybe in Armageddon because it might be necessary as a last ditch effort but I personally doubt it. We know the destructive powers of a nuclear bomb so we wisely refrain from it's use. Akira--- - ---------- > From: Jayson Howell > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade > Date: Wednesday, July 29, 1998 7:10 AM > > ---David Edelstein wrote: > > > > >>>That's drawing it a bit far, I think. Was the unicorn worshipped? > > Mermaids? Dragons? If they were, so were many ordinary animals, and > Uriel > > didn't seem to have anything against them.<<< > > > > > > Uriel went after the mythical beasts because (according to him) they > > weren't natural creatures, but were created as a result of > > ethereal/celestial meddling. > > > There's also some mention in Night Music that these beasts were being > used all too often in diabolical plots. I infer this to mean that as > Christianity swept through Europe, and the attitudes of the people > changed to view the creatures more as supernatural terrors than simply > powerful beasts, their role in the Symphony came into question. > > Maybe not, but it seems that the Middle Ages' changing attitudes are > more to blame than a defacto reason for not having unicorns and > dragons in the game. > > -Jayson > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:09:07 -0700 From: "E Kumar" Subject: Re: IN> Armageddon (the location) > What it was, was the world's first siege which involved cutting off of > necessary supply lines to choke the enemy's army and wait comfortably > outside the walls of the city until the people were forced to surrender or > starve. Once the inhabitants became desperate, they charged into > Thothmosis's waiting army, where he merrily slaughtered them all and took > the city, and consequently, the trade route he was after. Does that mean Armageddon will be a way to trap Infernals in Hell? ( a place they don't generally like anyhow.) When they make a rush for Earth, they would already be surrounded and BLAM. We win! *just a romantic thought* - ---------- > From: Emily Dresner > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> Armageddon (the location) > Date: Wednesday, July 29, 1998 9:22 AM > > > > An earlier poster mentioned that it was where the Pharaoh Thutmose > > captured a fortified town. Well, according to _some_ historians, this > > was the world's *very first* battlefield... to wit, the first place > > where two large (several thousand men), well-equipped, professional > > armies, fielded by nations rather than tribes or city-states, fought > > until one of them was thoroughly defeated. There are a few earlier > > batttles in the history books, but you could argue with a straight face > > that none of them were big or decisive enough to deserve the name. So > > the world's *last* battle will be fought, at least in part, on the same > > site as its first one. > > Menkheppre Thothmosis. Actually, the name is spelled Dhwty-ms, so I blame > the Greeks who couldn't spell Egyptian words to save their souls. > > It was not the world's first true battlefield by a long shot. When I was > walking down to get a sammich I hallucinated through six or seven > references to other battlefields between countries. If you want to > stretch your imagination, you can even say that Menes unification of the > nomes of Upper and Lower Egypt in 3200 BC was a full battlefield between > two fully formed nations. > > What it was, was the world's first siege which involved cutting off of > necessary supply lines to choke the enemy's army and wait comfortably > outside the walls of the city until the people were forced to surrender or > starve. Once the inhabitants became desperate, they charged into > Thothmosis's waiting army, where he merrily slaughtered them all and took > the city, and consequently, the trade route he was after. It may have > also been the world's first effective use of chariots on the battlefield, > as they were brought into Egypt by the Hyksos during the 2nd Intermediate > Period. > > The historical transcription of the battle is a wonderful piece to > translate - straightforward and full of gore. I remember working through > some of the battles with LEGOs. "Eat my minifig justice!" > > As for Thothmosis III himself, he was one of the world's first military > genuses. He was a strong king, and he had a control over his army that > the world had never seen. He pushed the Egyptian holdings all the way > down to Cush (Ethiopia) and up almost to the Tigris/Euphrates. Not bad > for a short little fat man with a pot belly. This Empire served to make > Thothmosis IV, and subsequently the Amenhoteps through Akhenaton (who lost > the Empire) extremely wealthy, and leant heavily to a renewed age of > building. > > - Em, who clearly needs a new hobby ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:12:34 -0700 From: "E Kumar" Subject: Re: IN> More on tethers (just a little though) Don't forget the travelling carnie tent tether of Janus. It only works while it's erected as in The Marches. Another tether would be active motorsport raceways on racedays! I think that would be cool! - ---------- > From: Steve Jessop > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> More on tethers (just a little though) > Date: Wednesday, July 29, 1998 9:49 AM > > > On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Walter Milliken wrote: > > > [Gabriel] can have only one active volcano Tether at a time, > > unless it's a long-term volcano (like Mauna Loa in Hawaii), in which > > case it may be a permanent Tether, since it's such an important > > instance. Since most volcanoes are very short-lived, one volcano Tether > > at a time isn't really much of a problem. > > > > Umm... Most *eruptions* are short lived. Many volcanoes spend most of > their time dormant. But a volcano doesn't cease to exist just because it > isn't on CNN. > > So unless Gabriel can only turn any *erupting* volcano into a tether, > there is still a contradiction. I like the idea of temporary tethers > though, especially since it solves the Janus Seneschal problem - Janus > might *only* have temporary and mobile tethers. > > 'Seneschal of The Point on Earth with Highest Windspeed'. Works for me. > > Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:48:15 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? E Kumar wrote: > I don't totally go for the paperwork thing because I figure > celestials have been impersonating humans for a lot longer than SIN > numbers have been around. The paperwork thing would presumably be a modern development, like most of the stuff under Jean's heading. > So in c.1650 angel Jo Blo wants to be a Noble. Level 4 status 5. > Does he, in those times, have a deed that says he owns land > previously belonging to someone else? I don't think Jo Blo *gets* to be a Noble, at least not very often. Such a highly conspicuous role is very costly in game mechanics terms, and would require a LOT of spadework, whether that spadework takes the forms of forgeries, years spent passing as the previous noble's child, or the huge number of human memories to be diddled. > Probably not because that would just cause all sorts of political > problems. It's going to cause political problems no matter what you do. Even if you edit everyone's memories, you have political problems because having a lot of political power IS a political problem. > "...Does he have paperwork to proove it? Of, course > not, he's our lord!" Which will get them damned funny looks from people who have not been hypnotized by the celestials, because European culture has put lots of stock in titles, deeds, and other paperwork since long before 16-mumble. I recommend the reaction be: "Does he have the paperwork to prove it? Of course!" (Whether he has it or whether he doesn't.) Earl ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #883 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.