From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jul 30 16:10:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA10823 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:10:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id QAA05177 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:05:41 -0500 Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:05:41 -0500 Message-Id: <199807302105.QAA05177@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #886 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, July 30 1998 Volume 01 : Number 886 In this digest: Re: IN> Roles Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? Re: IN> Roles Re: IN> Roles Re: IN> Roles Re: IN> Roles Re: IN> Roles Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? Re: IN> Roles Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? Re: IN> Angelic memory Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? Re: IN> Roles Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? Re: IN> Roles Re: IN> Roles ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 19:37:02 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Roles On Thu, Jul 30, 1998 at 10:30:50AM -0700, Akira wrote: > I still don't have a problem with creating an *initial* reality changing > role. So when a new to Earth Angel comes down he's set to go! > My justification for this is : > > a) The starting disturbance is a fine payoff to make all further attempts > at affecting the symphony a sound investment. That's why I still use the > 'reduced disturbance due to a role' rule. > I find this idea inconsistent. Essentially, you create a hole in reality in order to prevent further holes in reality. This makes little sense to me. For this reason, reality altering doesn't make sense to me. > c) The Angels' AA would definately have a strong cocept for that Angels > duties and future Word. After all, they may have created the celestial > specifically for a certain action. Therefore, setup would begin on behalf > of the Angel while they learn songs and skills in heaven to help prep > themselves. > I'm a bit dubious about this. No matter how well they've been briefed on Earth, the ten thousand things will catch them out. I reckon it's only after you've been on Earth for a while that you will be able to remember such bits of trivia as what companies sell what kind of produce. Remember that Earth is an alien place for Celestials, and that they'll certainly stand out as eccentrics until they've had a fair bit of experience. > d) Dreams! The collaberation of a servitor to help those who will be > affected by the Angels appearance to be a smooth one. A dreamwlker of > Blandine or another Archangels servitor with the borrowed or granted > dreamwalking attunement could very easily plant subtle clues that there is > a love for a sibling that doesn't exist yet or a mentor teacher etc... > IMC, Blandine wouldn't support such action except in the most extreme circumstances. She's supposed to be there to protect dreams and inspire them, not to fashion them out of whole cloth. Beleth is a different story, of course. (Though it wouldn't be a loved sibling unless that caused more pain.) And one carnie tent belonged to Valefor; tbe other to Eli. Janus didn't have one. It might well have made more sense for the Bargain of Hope to be related to the Wind rather than Creation, but that isn't how it's written up. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 19:57:50 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? On Thu, Jul 30, 1998 at 11:23:37AM -0800, Armand wrote: > In my system, it works like slight of hand (I don't find slight of hand > all that Disturbing). There is a difference between sleight of hand and coincidental magic. Fake paper trails, genuine membership of clubs, and genuine employment records are sleight of hand. "Jedi mind tricks" are coincidental magic. Arguably, that shouldn't disturb the Symphony, but it certainly shouldn't suppress Disturbance. Reality rewrites are vulgar magic. I think of the Disturbance suppressing aspects of Roles as analogous to those of Corporeal artifacts. By possessing a _true_ connection to the Corporeal Realm, they can make it seem like they're part of it. You put the right inflection on the words, fo the > right hand sign, and there is no suspicion. You do realise that there is no support for this in the rules, don't you? What you are describing is a power more like an attunement than anything else. There is nothing in the rulebook that indicates to me that taking a Role involves having your connection to the Symphony/personal Symphony fundamentally altered. Besides, I like the idea of Seraphim being able to have Roles, and my interpretation of how you use Jedi mind tricks throw that out the window. Of course, the demon could > still call forth an investigation. The investigation, due to the > effects of having a sufficient Role level, would believe that they found > what they were looking for to identify the reporter for being a > reporter. I still prefer the idea of the reporter having a passport and a press pass, and that if the customs officials ring the number the reporter gives, it will turn out to be a genuine small-town newspaper with genuine staff where the reporter genuinely works and receives a genuine pay packet. Soldiers and celestials can see around this, but how can they > explain to others around them that they know more of what's going on > without sounding like a crack-pot? > They probably can't, but they can arrange to have you followed and knifed in a dark alley sometime, or abducted in broad daylight on a busy street, for that matter. (It happens in real life, after all.) > > > Then, if your characters background calls for it, there's college or some > > > vocational school. More contempraries that need to be filled in by others. > > > > I assume that if you want a degree, you have to get that degree yourself, > > in the vast majority of cases. > > To my way of thinking, just another way that celestials waste time > trying to be inscrutibly human. Experiencing part of how humans live is a waste of time? For all Celestials? Even those who are going to be counselling them someday? I like my Heaven and Hell to be a tad > more efficient. More efficient? Is it not more efficient to create Roles that _demons_ can't see through? And efficiency is relative to the available resources. If reality rewrites and Jedi mind tricks aren't possible, then it isn't inefficient not to use them. > > Your fake birth cert presumably included parents? I haven't made any loan > > applications because I sponge off my parents. > > Pretty impressive, but the key here are the words "not too many". My > wife was able to "sponge" off her parents, but still needed to take out > loans for herself in her name. It has occured to me that I am making an invalid point in this regard, as the money was still paid by my parents, so that documentation exists to be checked. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:49:31 -0700 From: "Akira" Subject: Re: IN> Roles Walsch wrote: I'm a bit dubious about this. No matter how well they've been briefed on > Earth, the ten thousand things will catch them out. I reckon it's only > after you've been on Earth for a while that you will be able to remember > such bits of trivia as what companies sell what kind of produce. Remember > that Earth is an alien place for Celestials, and that they'll certainly > stand out as eccentrics until they've had a fair bit of experience. > Angels shouldn't worry about wether DEl Monte had Peaches and pears and wether or not nissan ever made a 4x4. That's what the role is for in the first place! So they're not these islands of disturbance within the symphony. >She's supposed to be there to protect dreams and inspire > them, not to fashion them out of whole cloth An angel is likely on earth to do good anyway, so cooperation to allow an easy transition for a greater good is not unlikely. >Essentially, you create a hole in reality > in order to prevent further holes in reality. Yea. It's sort of like taking a loss in an investment for a greater return! - ---------- > From: Kevin Walsh > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> Roles > Date: Thursday, July 30, 1998 11:37 AM > > On Thu, Jul 30, 1998 at 10:30:50AM -0700, Akira wrote: > > I still don't have a problem with creating an *initial* reality changing > > role. So when a new to Earth Angel comes down he's set to go! > > My justification for this is : > > > > a) The starting disturbance is a fine payoff to make all further attempts > > at affecting the symphony a sound investment. That's why I still use the > > 'reduced disturbance due to a role' rule. > > > I find this idea inconsistent. Essentially, you create a hole in reality > in order to prevent further holes in reality. This makes little sense to > me. For this reason, reality altering doesn't make sense to me. > > > c) The Angels' AA would definately have a strong cocept for that Angels > > duties and future Word. After all, they may have created the celestial > > specifically for a certain action. Therefore, setup would begin on behalf > > of the Angel while they learn songs and skills in heaven to help prep > > themselves. > > > I'm a bit dubious about this. No matter how well they've been briefed on > Earth, the ten thousand things will catch them out. I reckon it's only > after you've been on Earth for a while that you will be able to remember > such bits of trivia as what companies sell what kind of produce. Remember > that Earth is an alien place for Celestials, and that they'll certainly > stand out as eccentrics until they've had a fair bit of experience. > > > d) Dreams! The collaberation of a servitor to help those who will be > > affected by the Angels appearance to be a smooth one. A dreamwlker of > > Blandine or another Archangels servitor with the borrowed or granted > > dreamwalking attunement could very easily plant subtle clues that there is > > a love for a sibling that doesn't exist yet or a mentor teacher etc... > > > IMC, Blandine wouldn't support such action except in the most extreme > circumstances. She's supposed to be there to protect dreams and inspire > them, not to fashion them out of whole cloth. Beleth is a different story, > of course. (Though it wouldn't be a loved sibling unless that caused more > pain.) > > And one carnie tent belonged to Valefor; tbe other to Eli. Janus didn't > have one. It might well have made more sense for the Bargain of Hope to be > related to the Wind rather than Creation, but that isn't how it's written > up. > > Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. > -- > "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive > friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such > methods may gain empire, but not glory." > Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:16:00 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Roles On 30 Jul 1998, Jason F. McBrayer wrote: > >>>>> "HJ" == Hart, Joanna writes: > > HJ> Otherwise we might have to assume that bureacracy contains the > HJ> secrets of some strange arcane ritual which influences the way that the > HJ> celestial and the corporeal interact. > > This actually makes perfect sense in an Illuminated IN game. _Of > course_ bureaucracy contains the secrets of control over the > Symphony. Why else do you think there's so much of it? Hmmm... The Discordianist version of Eris must get a lot of Essence from this... *thinking up an evil thing to do to my players if I ever get a game going...* Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:17:56 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Roles On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > On Thu, Jul 30, 1998 at 02:53:12PM +0200, Jasper Reijer Floor wrote: > Thus, as > > Mr. Doe, it would be perfectly allright to buy the store next door, take a > > sledge hammer, and knock out the wall sperating the two (assuming local > > ordnances, and building structure allow this), without generating > > dissonance. > > > Unless Mr Doe is a Mercurian, in which case he has to hire someone else to > knock down the wall. I'm mean in that I regard acts which harm inanimate > objects to be acts of violence and therefore dissonant for Mercurians and > (frequently) Servitors of Flowers. This raises interesting questions such > as whether Mercurians of Judgement can burn evil books. This is non-canon, as far as I can understand. Mercurian's love people, they don't abhor violence. There's a difference. They can kick the sh*t out of demons, for example (if they care to learn how to kick the sh*t out of anything, which isn't the sort of thing they usually get around to). Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:33:36 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Roles I came up with another way to establish roles, which is kind of nice since I'm the one who brought the whole subject up this time around. It's similar to the idea that a reliever does the time necessary to establish the credentials, but without the same kind of time investment. Namely, you simply take over the life that someone else has established. Both Heaven and Hell have access to lots of newly dead humans, who are done with their lives. If you find one that is suitably close to your requirements that wasn't too public about their death (demons would probably go so far as too inconspicuously knock off the target), all you need is someone in an appropriate government office to make sure that the legal paperwork (death certificate or such) didn't get filed and do up a vessel of the right specifications. Voila, you have a life to slip into. While only a small percentage of deaths will match the needed specifications (including being in an area where you have an agent necessary to rub out info about the death), the sheer number of human deaths should mean that there are always a couple handy. What you do next depends on the task needed. Most often, I'd recommend that the person develop an urge to move to a new city or region to prevent too many chances of getting caught in an inconsistency. If it requires staying put, just get a good actor/bluffer; if the celestial keeps in close contact with HQ, you can always keep the soul handy ask questions (interrogate, for you infernals out there) about your new background. You probably also have the kind where a lower level celestial sets up the role, since this would probably be even more airtight; some things you would want to do with a role would be helped by this completeness. I do have one question about this system, though: how do you get two human parents to have a reliever for a kid? It can't really be two other celestials, since that only puts the problem back a generation. I suppose you could have two soldiers pretend that the tyke is their's, but now you have three agents tied up in creating a role. It seems to me that the cost soon won't be worth the reward. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:33:12 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Roles On Thu, Jul 30, 1998 at 11:49:31AM -0700, Akira wrote: > Walsch wrote: How in Satan's name did that 'c' appear in my quoted name? I know I didn't put it there. > Angels shouldn't worry about wether DEl Monte had Peaches and pears and > wether or not nissan ever made a 4x4. That's what the role is for in the > first place! So they're not these islands of disturbance within the > symphony. > Maybe they should worry about them in order to be able to talk to humans sensibly. I know if I encountered someone who'd never heard of Nestle I'd be surprised. (How would Nestle come up? I might start ranting about how they kill children, or somebody else might.) Or maybe they might be interested in other things such as the traffic laws, or entry requirements to universities, or Social Welfare regulations. IIRC, you have to have skills to support your Role, so Roles don't give you omniscience. > >She's supposed to be there to protect dreams and inspire > > them, not to fashion them out of whole cloth > > An angel is likely on earth to do good anyway, so cooperation to allow an > easy transition for a greater good is not unlikely. > Blandine is not Michael, and I don't think of her as the sort of person who thinks the ends justify the means. IMO, what's being described is repellent in the extreme. Surely someone who exist in order to protect the dreams (and therefore the minds) of others would feel that much more strongly. > >Essentially, you create a hole in reality > > in order to prevent further holes in reality. > > Yea. It's sort of like taking a loss in an investment for a greater > return! To me, it seems like dropping a boulder into a puddle in order to prevent ripples. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:43:43 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? Kevin Walsh wrote: > I still prefer the idea of the reporter having a passport and a press > pass, and that if the customs officials ring the number the reporter > gives, it will turn out to be a genuine small-town newspaper with genuine > staff where the reporter genuinely works and receives a genuine pay > packet. Or, maybe, somewhere in South Dakota, there is a small town that is run very quietly by angels and soldiers. Perhaps it is where a portion of the heavenly bureaucracy set up shop on earth. In addition to keeping records for other parts of the heaven's function, they answer the phone to say, "Sam Spade? Sure I've heard of him. Went to high school with him. Just a sec; I have to look in my files for that information." J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:36:55 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Roles On Thu, Jul 30, 1998 at 09:17:56PM +0200, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > Unless Mr Doe is a Mercurian, in which case he has to hire someone else to > > knock down the wall. I'm mean in that I regard acts which harm inanimate > > objects to be acts of violence and therefore dissonant for Mercurians and > > (frequently) Servitors of Flowers. This raises interesting questions such > > as whether Mercurians of Judgement can burn evil books. > > This is non-canon, as far as I can understand. Mercurian's love people, > they don't abhor violence. There's a difference. They can kick the sh*t > out of demons, for example (if they care to learn how to kick the sh*t out > of anything, which isn't the sort of thing they usually get around to). > Mercurians, as written up, can only be violent to demons. To me, Ethereal Spirits, Undead, flies, animals, plants and walls are thus safe from the wrath of (sane non-dissonant) Mercurians. Arguably, knocking down a wall is not an act of violence. My mileage varies. Pruning and surgery are also arguably non-violent (and I'd tend to lean that way myself). I wouldn't let a Mercurian chop down a tree though. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:15:35 -0700 From: "Akira" Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia.( Holds true to his name.) - ---------- > From: Kevin Walsh > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? > Date: Thursday, July 30, 1998 11:57 AM > > On Thu, Jul 30, 1998 at 11:23:37AM -0800, Armand wrote: > > In my system, it works like slight of hand (I don't find slight of hand > > all that Disturbing). > > There is a difference between sleight of hand and coincidental magic. Fake > paper trails, genuine membership of clubs, and genuine employment records > are sleight of hand. "Jedi mind tricks" are coincidental magic. > Arguably, that shouldn't disturb the Symphony, but it certainly > shouldn't suppress Disturbance. Reality rewrites are vulgar magic. I think > of the Disturbance suppressing aspects of Roles as analogous to those of > Corporeal artifacts. By possessing a _true_ connection to the Corporeal > Realm, they can make it seem like they're part of it. > > You put the right inflection on the words, fo the > > right hand sign, and there is no suspicion. > > You do realise that there is no support for this in the rules, don't you? > What you are describing is a power more like an attunement than anything > else. There is nothing in the rulebook that indicates to me that taking a > Role involves having your connection to the Symphony/personal Symphony > fundamentally altered. Besides, I like the idea of Seraphim being able to > have Roles, and my interpretation of how you use Jedi mind tricks throw > that out the window. > > Of course, the demon could > > still call forth an investigation. The investigation, due to the > > effects of having a sufficient Role level, would believe that they found > > what they were looking for to identify the reporter for being a > > reporter. > > I still prefer the idea of the reporter having a passport and a press > pass, and that if the customs officials ring the number the reporter > gives, it will turn out to be a genuine small-town newspaper with genuine > staff where the reporter genuinely works and receives a genuine pay > packet. > > Soldiers and celestials can see around this, but how can they > > explain to others around them that they know more of what's going on > > without sounding like a crack-pot? > > > They probably can't, but they can arrange to have you followed and knifed > in a dark alley sometime, or abducted in broad daylight on a busy street, > for that matter. (It happens in real life, after all.) > > > > > Then, if your characters background calls for it, there's college or some > > > > vocational school. More contempraries that need to be filled in by others. > > > > > > I assume that if you want a degree, you have to get that degree yourself, > > > in the vast majority of cases. > > > > To my way of thinking, just another way that celestials waste time > > trying to be inscrutibly human. > > Experiencing part of how humans live is a waste of time? For all > Celestials? Even those who are going to be counselling them someday? > > I like my Heaven and Hell to be a tad > > more efficient. > > More efficient? Is it not more efficient to create Roles that _demons_ > can't see through? And efficiency is relative to the available resources. > If reality rewrites and Jedi mind tricks aren't possible, then it isn't > inefficient not to use them. > > > > Your fake birth cert presumably included parents? I haven't made any loan > > > applications because I sponge off my parents. > > > > Pretty impressive, but the key here are the words "not too many". My > > wife was able to "sponge" off her parents, but still needed to take out > > loans for herself in her name. > > It has occured to me that I am making an invalid point in this regard, as > the money was still paid by my parents, so that documentation exists to be > checked. > > Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. > -- > "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive > friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such > methods may gain empire, but not glory." > Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:13:38 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? On Tue, Jul 28, 1998 at 11:44:21PM -0800, Armand wrote: > 20 years have gone by. Say good-bye to those 20 years in which no > demon was punished beyond the sound thrashing he gave the Tompson boy > after that one dance. 20 years, to an Archangel or Prince who was around to stir up the universe Way Back When (Michael, Baal), is an *EYEBLINK*. ("It was _yesterday_!") Even Janus has been around for ages. Jordi has been around since dinosaurs. Novalis has been around since plants, MINIMUM. Blandine and Beleth have existed as long as humans have dreamed. Even my 5-year-old celestial PC thinks of 20 years as only a fraction of her total existance. (When she's not busy thinking of it as an age she'll never get to, because the Game will catch her eventually...) Why? Because celestials are born with these *ancient* beings all around them, names and consciousnesses that have lived down the ages. This is what they have for role-models, this is what they see as "age." Humans see death in their grandparents, and rarely know great-grandparents, or at least don't know them for long. 20 years is a child to an adult, to a human. It's youth to late middle age. It's late middle age to retirement. It's retirement to elderly. It's elderly to dead. To a celestial, 20 years is... 20 years. Experience, life, and a few more fights behind one. A Superior can assign their Servitor to a Long Term Role, no problem. (These days, things happen faster, which may handicap Superiors RSN.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:04:22 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? At 9:55 AM -0800 7/30/98, Armand wrote: >Again, the facade that the character went to school must be maintained. >This involves school photos (a group photo taken every year with everyone's >name to indicate where in the photo they were, or a note if they were >absent that day), vaccination records, and report cards. I went to a private school... We never had group photos. (And I was home-schooled until I was about 9. And after the grade school went under, I had a semester or so when I wasn't going to high- school.) My sire had some funky notions about vaccinations, and got the family doctor to go along with them -- I got my Measles/Mumps/ Rubella vaccination *3 months ago* (at age 26). I have never had polio. (Yes, I had to have a letter from that same family doctor saying that he thought my immune system wouldn't do well with vaccinations, to get into college.) I did get report cards, but the grade school (Fleetwood) is no longer extant, and I don't know if my high-school has 'em. My high-school also was a private one, and very small; my graduating class was the largest up to that date. 18 seniors. Good luck looking people up... (Huntington-Surrey, on the other hand, is still functioning, last I heard.) (Of course, they'll all remember me. I wore a cape my senior year, just *BECAUSE*.) College, one can often slip into the background -- especially at a large one, like UTx (lessee, 200 students in one classroom...). With 54,000 students on campus around the time I was there, good luck finding the ones I actually talked to. Ditto the teachers. You might get a few who remembered me at UNH, but again, I wouldn't count on anyone recalling me... (Though I am in the computer records. So is the *other* Elizabeth McCoy who was there for a few semesters!) Didn't attend graduation, have only my photo-IDs as pictures. UTx, I got for being Valedictorian (2 semesters). UNH, I used savings (gifts from grandparents) and a certain dear spouse took up the rest. (As a note, being married without a job of one's own is a great way to keep your papertrail minimal. Having a fun job is more fun.) So, I *really* burst onto the paper trail when I get my Tx birth certificate so I can get a marrage license in NH. (Oh, yes, and it was a home birth. And I arrived some minutes *before* the doctor. Maybe I'm a celestial...) I don't even recall when I got my social security number. I think my grandparents did that for me. To get my NH driver's license, I had to show them my Tx one. (I think they took it, too, much to my dismay. I *liked* that photo!) A lot of celestials have probably moved about 2000 miles from "home" when they take up their Roles. Now, think if I'd taken a Role of "runaway hooker" at about age 15. Illegal Roles don't take the same sort of paperwork. Or, perhaps, show up at Ellis Island as a young immigrant from some place where the paper trail can be expected to be iffy. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:41:16 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Angelic memory At 9:26 PM -0700 7/28/98, Doug Muir wrote: >Mind you, Yves' speech in the APG intro seems to be going a bit farther >than that... he seems to be suggesting that there has been some >*deliberate* fuzzing of angelic recollection, at least in the last few >thousand years. This also could be used to explain that angels were created by Yaweh, and the ethereals are right -- what the angels "remember" is all artificial... Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? This is -- what? -- the third or fourth time the nature of Roles has been debated in the list. I do not see that this is one of those issues that needs to be made a Canonical Area of Doubt and Uncertainty. To me, it looks like we need a documentation patch. Someone at SJG should authoritatively declare what Roles are. Yes, yes, of course any GM can decide for themselves what Roles are, just they way any GM can decide to re-write any part of the canon. But this isn't a re-write. It's a vagueness that does nothing but cause confusion. No doubt Derek had something quite specific in mind and thought he had communicated it clearly when he wrote the main book. He was, unfortunately, wrong. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:54:48 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? While I'm grousing, it would save time, bandwidth, and memory space if people did not quote 50 lines in order to make one line of comment thereon. Thank you. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 22:09:19 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Roles On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > On Thu, Jul 30, 1998 at 09:17:56PM +0200, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > This is non-canon, as far as I can understand. Mercurian's love people, > > they don't abhor violence. There's a difference. They can kick the sh*t > > out of demons, for example (if they care to learn how to kick the sh*t out > > of anything, which isn't the sort of thing they usually get around to). > > > Mercurians, as written up, can only be violent to demons. To me, Ethereal > Spirits, Undead, flies, animals, plants and walls are thus safe from the > wrath of (sane non-dissonant) Mercurians. Arguably, knocking down a wall > is not an act of violence. My mileage varies. Pruning and surgery are also > arguably non-violent (and I'd tend to lean that way myself). I wouldn't > let a Mercurian chop down a tree though. Ah, my bad. Though I'm not sure I'd call knocking down a wall violence. IMO, the Mercurian Dissonance definition strongly suggests that it's violence against people, or at least sentient beings. "It is the antithesis of politics" - I am hard pressed to see a political solution to that will get that wall down. :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:30:58 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? On Thu, Jul 30, 1998 at 04:04:22PM -0400, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > College, one can often slip into the background -- especially at a > large one, like UTx (lessee, 200 students in one classroom...). With > 54,000 students on campus around the time I was there, good luck > finding the ones I actually talked to. Ditto the teachers. You > might get a few who remembered me at UNH, but again, I wouldn't > count on anyone recalling me... (Though I am in the computer > records. So is the *other* Elizabeth McCoy who was there for a few > semesters!) > I have to respond to this, because it's a break from the rather tedious arguing I've been involved in elsewhere in the thread. There is another Kevin Walsh in my year (I gather he repeated second year; I only know him from web-pages), and it is only by pure (bad) luck that I am known to the college as Kevin Walsh at all. At Registration day my name was down as Caoimhin Breathnach, because that's what the name I went to school under. However there was a space for an alternate name, and I foolishly filled it in. I have one DCU ID card naming me Kevin Walsh, and another one naming me Caoimhin Breathnach. The confusion this has caused to College records is something to behold. At various times, I have gotten examination results stating that I was absent for everything, been told I didn't exist in the library system, and been called for an interview because the company was under the impression that I was the other Kevin Walsh. (The college has a work-placement scheme. I went, because one doesn't turn down an interview for reasons as trivial as that they're looking for someone different.) I am known to my old schools (and thus the Department of Education) as Caoimhin Breathnach, to the Department of Social Welfare and the Revenue Commissioners, my bank, employment agency and current and previous places of employment as Kevin Walsh. There is a somewhat similar situation with regard to friends of mine from different milieus. To the best of my knowledge, no one who hired me for those jobs checked up any of the references (unsurprisingly, since I just put down the names of some teachers) or my educational qualifications. Of course, it's possible that some of the agencies I'm not registered with have done so and found out I don't exist. > (As a note, being married without a job of one's own is a great > way to keep your papertrail minimal. Having a fun job is more fun.) > In some countries, such as Ireland, marital status has an effect on tax allowances. In Ireland, the tax allowance for the working partner is doubled because of the other partner's unemployment. > Now, think if I'd taken a Role of "runaway hooker" at about age 15. > Illegal Roles don't take the same sort of paperwork. Or, perhaps, > show up at Ellis Island as a young immigrant from some place where > the paper trail can be expected to be iffy. > If you're willing to take the time, dump a baby on the doorstep of an orphanage/church. It's almost impossible for that to fail. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:42:48 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Roles On Thu, Jul 30, 1998 at 10:09:19PM +0200, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > Ah, my bad. Though I'm not sure I'd call knocking down a wall violence. > IMO, the Mercurian Dissonance definition strongly suggests that it's > violence against people, or at least sentient beings. "It is the > antithesis of politics" - I am hard pressed to see a political solution to > that will get that wall down. :) > They can always hire/persuade someone else to knock the wall down. This evades the dissonance conditions, and is at least arguably a political solution. The only reason I really think this should be dissonant is that when I get a mental image of a Mercurian/Servitor of Flowers throwing a tantrum and hitting a wall, it seems wrong. I wouldn't let Mercurians shove in queues/crowds either. A Servitor of Flowers would get away with it if it was necessary. I suppose I enjoy making dissonance conditions extreme. My exception is Seraphim, because otherwise I'd hit them with dissonance every time they stated an opinion without saying "In my opinion" beforehand, as that amounts to saying they have True Knowledge of the matter. I wouldn't let them do Macros the Black type stunts with self-fulfilling prophecies, either. (Not that I'd do so anyway. It's too Balseraphic.) Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:06:52 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Roles At 2:33 PM -0500 7/30/98, Eeyore wrote: >[...] all you >need is someone in an appropriate government office to make sure that the >legal paperwork (death certificate or such) didn't get filed If you can go celestial, swap yourself for someone who is comatose or simply unconscious... (You have to get the other person away, but you're clever, and so are your friends. You can figure out a way to spirit an unconscious/dead body away. Alternatively, make this something that a Superior can do -- instaswap. Head-injuries are also good reasons to have forgotten some bits. >You probably also have the kind where a lower level celestial sets up the >role, since this would probably be even more airtight; some things you >would want to do with a role would be helped by this completeness. I do >have one question about this system, though: how do you get two human >parents to have a reliever for a kid? Perhaps "retired" Soldiers, or humans who are aware of celestials but don't have the 6th-Force potential. Though having all three be agents isn't *that* unworkable -- especially if the Soldier wants to have kids anyway. The celestial is just a "twin"... And if *all* the family knows what's up, then they can do thing together. (The Family that Slays (demons) together, stays together?) (How many Soldiers or "aware mundanes" run orphanages, one wonders...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #886 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.