From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Jul 31 00:48:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA01992 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 00:48:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id AAA16939 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 00:53:34 -0500 Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 00:53:34 -0500 Message-Id: <199807310553.AAA16939@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #887 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, July 31 1998 Volume 01 : Number 887 In this digest: Re: IN> Roles Re: IN> Roles Re: IN> Roles Re: IN> Roles( are you on topic) Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? Re: IN> Roles Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? Re: IN> Roles Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade IN> Why not spread the Word (was RE: Roles and what to do...) Re: IN> Singing Question Re: IN> Armageddon (the location) Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? IN> Enhanced Gabrielite Attunements IN> Uriel's Crusade IN> Lost Words? IN> IN- Roles IN> IN- Why not spread the Word (was RE: Roles and what to do...) IN> Your influences ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:00:18 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Roles On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > On Thu, Jul 30, 1998 at 10:09:19PM +0200, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > Ah, my bad. Though I'm not sure I'd call knocking down a wall violence. > > IMO, the Mercurian Dissonance definition strongly suggests that it's > > violence against people, or at least sentient beings. "It is the > > antithesis of politics" - I am hard pressed to see a political solution to > > that will get that wall down. :) > > > They can always hire/persuade someone else to knock the wall down. This > evades the dissonance conditions, and is at least arguably a political > solution. The only reason I really think this should be dissonant is that > when I get a mental image of a Mercurian/Servitor of Flowers throwing a > tantrum and hitting a wall, it seems wrong. Throwing a tantrum and hitting a wall is quite different from knocking down a wall that need to be knocked down. Especially Mercurians of David - "charged with making places safe for humans to live" - should be able to do construction work, and that includes tearing down to enable strengthening or rebuilding. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:07:18 EDT From: Akumsa@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Roles >[...] all you >need is someone in an appropriate government office to make sure that the >legal paperwork (death certificate or such) didn't get filed >If you can go celestial, swap yourself for someone who is comatose >or simply unconscious... (You have to get the other person away, >but you're clever, and so are your friends. You can figure out a way >to spirit an unconscious/dead body away. Alternatively, make this >something that a Superior can do -- instaswap. I always tended to think of it like an Angel or Demon's vessel would vanish not too long after corporeal death, unless they were role/4 or higher. Otherwise, a lot of officials would be getting suspicious about how so many people tend to noth have: A) A family, B) Any Relatives, C) No Birth Certificate, Ect. The role 4-6 can just be consieder someone who past was a mystery or not revealed to the public. Given the amount of Angels/Demons on earth, thats a LOT of covering up to do, for BOTH sides. John T Perkowski, Ofanite of Arcade Games, Master of the One-Handed Playing style. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ---- "People in Glass houses might as well answer the door." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:11:49 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Roles On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 2:33 PM -0500 7/30/98, Eeyore wrote: > >You probably also have the kind where a lower level celestial sets up the > >role, since this would probably be even more airtight; some things you > >would want to do with a role would be helped by this completeness. I do > >have one question about this system, though: how do you get two human > >parents to have a reliever for a kid? > > Perhaps "retired" Soldiers, or humans who are aware of celestials > but don't have the 6th-Force potential. > > Though having all three be agents isn't *that* unworkable -- especially > if the Soldier wants to have kids anyway. The celestial is just a > "twin"... And if *all* the family knows what's up, then they can > do thing together. (The Family that Slays (demons) together, stays > together?) Actually, the parents wouldn't have to know. Tricking the father is easy, as long as he isn't present during the birth. There's also the possibility of replacing a stillborn child with a celestial... though that would require a lot of "aware" people - about a maternity ward's worth. Though I guess a country physician/whatever-the-word-is-for-one-who-helps-a-woman- during-childbirth-which-escapes-me-at-the-moment could be a Soldier, or otherwise serving the Celestials... - -X-X-X- *the physician asks to make a call between two periods of contractions* Hello? Is this Josh? I have a woman here who is going to lose her child... can you get word Upstairs that there will be an opening? - -X-X-X- Hm, that was a bit morbid. OTOH, imagine what such a doctor serving Hell might do, and -then- we can talk about morbid... *shudder* Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:58:25 -0700 From: "Akira" Subject: Re: IN> Roles( are you on topic) Is this a Role confusion or mercurian dissonance chat? Change the Subject line so the digest formats make sense. . . Please!! Akira - ---------- > From: Anders Gabrielsson > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> Roles > Date: Thursday, July 30, 1998 2:00 PM > > On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > > > On Thu, Jul 30, 1998 at 10:09:19PM +0200, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > > Ah, my bad. Though I'm not sure I'd call knocking down a wall violence. > > > IMO, the Mercurian Dissonance definition strongly suggests that it's > > > violence against people, or at least sentient beings. "It is the > > > antithesis of politics" - I am hard pressed to see a political solution to > > > that will get that wall down. :) > > > > > They can always hire/persuade someone else to knock the wall down. This > > evades the dissonance conditions, and is at least arguably a political > > solution. The only reason I really think this should be dissonant is that > > when I get a mental image of a Mercurian/Servitor of Flowers throwing a > > tantrum and hitting a wall, it seems wrong. > > Throwing a tantrum and hitting a wall is quite different from knocking > down a wall that need to be knocked down. Especially Mercurians of David - - > "charged with making places safe for humans to live" - should be able to > do construction work, and that includes tearing down to enable > strengthening or rebuilding. > > Anders Gabrielsson > anders@stp.ling.uu.se > The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! > May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:27:34 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? >This is -- what? -- the third or fourth time the nature of Roles >has been debated in the list. I do not see that this is one >of those issues that needs to be made a Canonical Area of Doubt >and Uncertainty. To me, it looks like we need a documentation >patch. Someone at SJG should authoritatively declare what Roles >are. > >Yes, yes, of course any GM can decide for themselves what Roles >are, just they way any GM can decide to re-write any part of >the canon. But this isn't a re-write. >Earl I agree. I run Roles the way I do, because false paper trails are fragile and I feel, IMC, that time is a precious commodity. However, if there was some firm documentation, then that would be different. Maybe it's all the research I've done on how and why people get caught, maybe it comes from watching that scene in Highlander where the police officer discovers that Nash is really an immortal named McCleod, or maybe I'm just an unsatisfyable crack pot. It just seems that false lives are always unravelled. While AA Beth makes a good point about how time to immortals goes by at a different pace, I don't think that it influences the total perception. Sure, a year is like a day and all that..., but how much time is there left? From Heaven's perspective, they are outnumbered in this war. I would think that the most tactically sound thing would be to get out the good word. Every angel that can move should be out redeeming or damning; not trying to create a false trail in case someone is going to check his story, IMO. Yeah, it's not cannon. Sure, it plays hard and fast with the Symphony, but so far it works. Armand ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:22:29 -0700 From: "Akira" Subject: Re: IN> Roles John T Perkowski wrote: >officials would be getting suspicious about how so many > people tend to not have: A) A family, B) Any Relatives, C) No >BirthCertificate, Ect. There are probably a lot of Jon Does out there! And even if they were 'suspicious' , what would you investigate anyhow? Ther's no leads. The last thing someone would think unless they're a flake or tipped off is " Hmmm, lotta unacounted for dead bodies. Wonder if there's Angels about". *Not wanting to sound jaded or sarcastic- just making a point.* As far as Vessels disappearing, well I think THAT would 'cause investigation. especially if it was caught on video! Akira--"An affirmation is a strong, positive statement that something is already so." SHAKTI GAWAIN - ---------- > From: Akumsa@aol.com > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> Roles > Date: Thursday, July 30, 1998 2:07 PM > > >[...] all you > >need is someone in an appropriate government office to make sure that the > >legal paperwork (death certificate or such) didn't get filed > > >If you can go celestial, swap yourself for someone who is comatose > >or simply unconscious... (You have to get the other person away, > >but you're clever, and so are your friends. You can figure out a way > >to spirit an unconscious/dead body away. Alternatively, make this > >something that a Superior can do -- instaswap. > > I always tended to think of it like an Angel or Demon's vessel would vanish > not too long after corporeal death, unless they were role/4 or higher. > Otherwise, a lot of officials would be getting suspicious about how so many > people tend to noth have: A) A family, B) Any Relatives, C) No Birth > Certificate, Ect. > > The role 4-6 can just be consieder someone who past was a mystery or not > revealed to the public. Given the amount of Angels/Demons on earth, thats a > LOT of covering up to do, for BOTH sides. > > > > John T Perkowski, Ofanite of Arcade Games, Master of the One-Handed Playing > style. > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > ---- > > "People in Glass houses might as well answer the door." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:24:28 -0700 From: "Akira" Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? * applause* - ---------- > From: Armand > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? > Date: Thursday, July 30, 1998 3:27 PM > > >This is -- what? -- the third or fourth time the nature of Roles > >has been debated in the list. I do not see that this is one > >of those issues that needs to be made a Canonical Area of Doubt > >and Uncertainty. To me, it looks like we need a documentation > >patch. Someone at SJG should authoritatively declare what Roles > >are. > > > >Yes, yes, of course any GM can decide for themselves what Roles > >are, just they way any GM can decide to re-write any part of > >the canon. But this isn't a re-write. > > > > >Earl > > I agree. I run Roles the way I do, because false paper trails are fragile > and I feel, IMC, that time is a precious commodity. However, if there was > some firm documentation, then that would be different. Maybe it's all the > research I've done on how and why people get caught, maybe it comes from > watching that scene in Highlander where the police officer discovers that > Nash is really an immortal named McCleod, or maybe I'm just an > unsatisfyable crack pot. It just seems that false lives are always > unravelled. > > While AA Beth makes a good point about how time to immortals goes by at a > different pace, I don't think that it influences the total perception. > Sure, a year is like a day and all that..., but how much time is there > left? From Heaven's perspective, they are outnumbered in this war. I > would think that the most tactically sound thing would be to get out the > good word. Every angel that can move should be out redeeming or damning; > not trying to create a false trail in case someone is going to check his > story, IMO. > > Yeah, it's not cannon. Sure, it plays hard and fast with the Symphony, but > so far it works. > > Armand > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:49:15 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? At 2:27 PM -0800 7/30/98, Armand wrote: >While AA Beth makes a good point about how time to immortals goes by at a >different pace, I don't think that it influences the total perception. >Sure, a year is like a day and all that..., but how much time is there >left? From Heaven's perspective, they are outnumbered in this war. I >would think that the most tactically sound thing would be to get out the >good word. Every angel that can move should be out redeeming or damning; >not trying to create a false trail in case someone is going to check his >story, IMO. Look at Destiny -- there are subtle things to be doing that are just as important, if not moreso. The kid who is a role-model in his school, say, and actually *does* influence people not to do drugs or whatever. The little girl who comes up to the sad human and offers him a flower or something, infusing him with hope again. The boy scout who runs into a burning apartment and brings out his friend and his friend's little kid, or the teenager who dives into a river to rescue someone drowning. Or, get less generic. An angel of Lightning in a classroom, who asks the incisive questions that let others understand the subject. The Cherub of Dreams who gets to know her classmates and keeps their dreams safe -- and maybe encourages some of them to follow their daydreams and hopes. The angel of Stone who makes the highschool football team a thing of bonding, and not factions, teaching dedication and perseverence. The Seraph of Creation who steers her fellows to the jobs and classes that they'll do best in, which will bring them the most joy. The little Judgmenter hall monitor. The Fire-angel who looms up behind bullies, puts a large hand on their shoulder, and asks the other kid, "Hey, is this guy bothering you?" The Windy who sweeps through someone's life, and shows there's more to living than the day to day depressed grind -- or who makes friends with runaways and finds out if they really want that life... The Jordi-Cherub who watches the classroom from atop the shelves and bites the kids who are cruel to animals. The Laurencian captain of the fencing team who insists on fair play -- and/or joins the military as an example. He's also in the Boy Scouts. Or Girl Scouts, depending on gender...? The Michalite who's gonna grow up to be a policeman or fireman -- and encourages his friends to be heros in their own lives, too, when opportunity shows up. The Novalisian who stands uses Songs of Harmony to quell fights in the schoolyard. And now we're back to Destiny. There is more to being an angel than smiting demons. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:31:44 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Roles At 11:11 PM +0200 7/30/98, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: >Actually, the parents wouldn't have to know. Tricking the father is easy, >as long as he isn't present during the birth. There's also the possibility >of replacing a stillborn child with a celestial... though that would >require a lot of "aware" people - about a maternity ward's worth. Though I >guess a country physician/whatever-the-word-is-for-one-who-helps-a-woman- >during-childbirth-which-escapes-me-at-the-moment could be a Soldier, or >otherwise serving the Celestials... Midwife, and they aren't only for "country" deliveries. There are some cities which also have midwives who will attend home-deliveries. (And in Texas, which I have loved dearly, the hospitals are usually about a decade behind the New England area in terms of "enlightened" health care... Ditto schools, from what I've heard...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 98 18:36 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade >Is it even possible to cut an archangel off from its cathedral? Maybe the >cathedral simply moves outside heaven also and .. into the Marches. How do >we know there aren't any other previously outcast archangels? The whole Choir of the Grigori was made outcast; if there were any Grigori AAs at the time, they must have either been outcast or destroyed on the spot. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 19:08:22 -0400 From: eswhanu@juno.com Subject: IN> Why not spread the Word (was RE: Roles and what to do...) When I was a Catholic (Theravada Buddhist now), I was puzzled why we didn't just have angels come down and spread the Good News. I read something a while back (forget the source), which may answer the question. Basically, it said that God wanted people to follow him by Faith, and not Fear. If the Host were to just come to the world, fear and not love would overwhelm people... and the Infernal would win, as the borderline cases would run in terror at the 60-foot six-eyed Seraph is celestial form telling them that God loves everyone... And in game terms: Don't forget, currently, the War is a cold war. If angels were to go reveal themselves, then they would turn it into a hot one, quickly. And being outnumbered, they would lose, ***bad***. The average angel (PC or otherwise, 9 Forces) is tougher than the average demon (7 forces excepting PCs), but the angels are outnumbered. So their actions have to remain hidden, hence Roles. This way, the game doesn't end when they are losing. Demons use Roles not only to hide from angels, but other demons. If the Infernal were as "united" as the Host, Lucifer would be back in his Cathedral in Heaven... Such is not the case. Sure, each side has nuclear weapons, but are we *sure* that ours will hit first? Think guerilla warfare. Roles are just dressing and acting like the "locals". Brian Ward On Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:49:15 -0400 Elizabeth McCoy writes: >At 2:27 PM -0800 7/30/98, Armand wrote: > >>While AA Beth makes a good point about how time to immortals goes by >at a >>different pace, I don't think that it influences the total >perception.>>Sure, a year is like a day and all that..., but how much time is >there>>left? From Heaven's perspective, they are outnumbered in this war. >I>>would think that the most tactically sound thing would be to get out >the>>good word. Every angel that can move should be out redeeming or >damning; >>not trying to create a false trail in case someone is going to check >his>>story, IMO. > (Snip) >Look at Destiny -- there are subtle things to be doing that are just>as important, if not moreso. The kid who is a role-model in his>school, say, and actually *does* influence people not to do drugs >or whatever. The little girl who comes up to the sad human and offers>him a flower or something, infusing him with hope again. The boy>scout who runs into a burning apartment and brings out his friend>and his friend's little kid, or the teenager who dives into a river>to rescue someone drowning. > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 00:33:35 +0100 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Singing Question >Personally, I prefer the somewhat ambiguous nature of verbal >components as they stand now. Should canon material feel a need to >define them, my first vote would be for a sort of "pidgen celestial" >as Elizabeth was mentioning. > I think that pidgeon celestial would work for celestials singing songs but mortals singing corporeal songs are probably going to be using whatever language their teacher taught them in. Old angels might like ancient tongues, and may even use this as a test of a pupil's worthiness. 'Yes my soldier, I will teach you a Song...But first you must study these ancient Sumerian texts' . Dream soldiers using ethereal songs might 'hum' in a distracted daydreaming kind of way. One more question... The last time that I looked, the FAQ equated magic with Songs. Is it feasible then that mortals and/or celestials can learn Songs on their own, without permission/instruction by a superior? (From manuscripts, etc?) - -- Julian jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 00:29:41 +0100 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Armageddon (the location) > Actually, thinking of the location, I can imagine the disappointment of >the Four Horsemen when they arrive there and find just one poor kibbutz, >and one that makes its living out of dairy products at that... > Blessed are the cheesemakers... ;-) - -- Julian jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 01:30:35 +0100 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Jasper wrote: >As for Uriel. I think he tried to change the whole of the symphony into >a pure thing... as he saw it. Basically he did his job too well, and while >it may not have been bad, it disrupts the experiment. The ethereals are >(possibly) created out of the minds of men, and if you kill them aren't >you killing their choice. I very much agree and use something like this in my own game. Basically Uriel shared a similar approach to God in his Old Testament image. One prone to direct involvement with humanity, amongst other things. Later, God 'changed' and retired from being so high profile of course (and 'why' is a different story) but Uriel was still made the way that he was. Consequently, Uriel was recalled not because he had done anything neccessarily 'wrong' in God's eyes but because God saw an old aspect of Himself in Uriel that He simply wanted removed. - -- Julian jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:45:01 -0400 From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >On Tue, Jul 28, 1998 at 11:44:21PM -0800, Armand wrote: >> 20 years have gone by. Say good-bye to those 20 years in which no >> demon was punished beyond the sound thrashing he gave the Tompson boy >> after that one dance. > >20 years, to an Archangel or Prince who was around to stir up the universe >Way Back When (Michael, Baal), is an *EYEBLINK*. ("It was _yesterday_!") >Even Janus has been around for ages. Jordi has been around since dinosaurs. >Novalis has been around since plants, MINIMUM. Blandine and Beleth >have existed as long as humans have dreamed. It's certainly reasonable for a powerful angel or demon to tell a servant, "Right. Bobbie Simpson is going to have a crisis of faith in 22 years. I think that you should be there for her, and she'll trust you more if she's known you for most of her life. Hop to it, bucko." (DIGRESSION: IMHO, one of the things that makes Hell horrifying is that it is personal. CoC works because of the cosmic horror turn; the universe is just something that the human mind cannot conceive. Hell in In Nomine works best when it is utterly personal; there are evil powers that bear particular and personal malice towards each individual. Beleth should send a person nightmares because she is distinctly aware of his dreams, and is willing to craft unique and individual nightmares for each person. Kronos and Asmodeus should have entries on you in their files, and it should always be right at hand.) IMC, it is theoretically possible to get Jean reminiscing about organizing a tour to the corporeal realm, to watch the symmetries break and the four basic forces form. Or find some old angels and listen to their stories about Michael and Lucifer debating theology in the streets of Heaven, just before the Fall ("Who won? Well, I think Michael did, but obviously 1/3 of the Host disagreed."). There's a line in _The Screwtape Letters_ where Screwtape comments that he is uninterested by the wars and plagues afflicting mankind; in his view, the death rate is the same as it has always been -- 100%. All that matters is what happens to the soul afterwards, for that is what will last forever. This is an attitude that should be played up on both sides, if you are interested in playing the nonhuman aspect of the celestials. It doesn't hurt to emphasize the immortality of the soul, either. IMC, I tossed out the whole "soul-death" notion because I wanted to remove mortality as a motivator for PCs and NPCs. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 00:44:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "R. Sean Borgstrom" Subject: IN> Enhanced Gabrielite Attunements It has always seemed to me that Gabriel's angels are slighted somewhat -- many of their Choir Attunements are more a part of their dissonance condition than useful abilities. Accordingly, I present a few additions to those Attunements. ** Seraphim: Gabriel's Seraphim once followed her example as divine messengers. They received their missives from the ether and delivered them faithfully. Even now, they retain some of these skills. Gabriel -- or anyone else who knows the Seraph -- can send a message to a Seraph of Fire, as if using the Celestial Song of Tongues. It's up to the Seraph whether they deliver it, of course, if the message is meant for someone else. Seraphim in general incur no dissonance from delivering a false message, as long as they explain in advance that it's a communication from someone else. Cherubim: Guardians of Fire are touched somewhat by the inspiration that burns in Gabriel's mind. When using their natural resonance, on a CD of 4+, they receive an vision of their Attuned and their immediate vicinity -- the higher the check digit, the more they see. Angels of other Choirs can use this Attunement with the Celestial Song of Attraction, as long as they have benevolent or neutral intentions towards their "attuned". Ofanim: (see the book; immunity to fire et al.) Elohim: Elohim of Fire, students of emotion and psychology -- both for dealing with their victims and their victims' victims -- are master artists, each having every Artistry skill at level 1. Everything these Elohim create has a "point", an objective they are trying to achieve -- but even so, the exact techniques used sometimes illustrate a good deal about the Elohite's inner life. Malakim: (see the book; flaming hands.) Kyriotates: Kyriotates of Gabriel can overwhelm the cruel with the divine fury of Fire. When using their resonance on someone cruel enough to merit Fire's punishments, the victim must beat the Kyriotate's CD to resist, even if they make their Will roll. Their Choir dissonance condition still applies. Mercurians: Mercurians of Fire can summon the primeval passion of Fire at need. When this talent is invoked, it adds 1 level of Charisma and 1 further level of sex appeal to their Vessel. They are not obligated to use this talent to perform their duties, although sometimes it comes in handy! - -- Hitherby ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:49:20 PDT From: "Doug Muir" Subject: IN> Uriel's Crusade >My first thought was actually to make him the Demon Prince of >Abominations. Why Abominations? Well, I was taught that in the Bible, >when God speaks of something being "abominable", He is eferring to things >that He hates utterly. Things that go against everything He commanded. Gets my vote. So, he'd be the Prince presiding over everything *really* unspeakably horrible. Probably have a Tether at the site of Belsen or the killing fields of Cambodia. Doug m. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 22:05:53 PDT From: "Doug Muir" Subject: IN> Lost Words? Question. Is it ever possible for a Word-bound celestial to lose his or her Word? Or to change it to another one? My initial reaction was "no". But... in that case, what happens to the Word-bound whose Words have simply ceased to exist? Like the Angel of Passenger Pigeons, or the Demon of Traditional Etruscan Drinking Songs? Technological advances, social changes, wars and extinction can render some Words obsolete or completely nonexistent. What happens to the celestial then? Furthermore, it's canon that some of the Princes had their Words changed when they fell (like Beleth going from Fear to Nightmare). So obviously it can happen at least sometimes. Could a celestial have a Word stripped as punishment? Or "upgraded" as a reward? Or changed to reflect equivalent changes in the Symphony? -- Like the Demon of Cannon becoming the Demon of Artillery, say. Anyone? Doug M. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 22:11:58 PDT From: "Doug Muir" Subject: IN> IN- Roles >Namely, you simply take over the life that someone else has established. >Both Heaven and Hell have access to lots of newly dead humans, who are >done with their lives. If you find one that is suitably close to your >requirements that wasn't too public about their death (demons would >probably go so far as too inconspicuously knock off the target), all you >need is someone in an appropriate government office to make sure that the >legal paperwork (death certificate or such) didn't get filed and do up a >vessel of the right specifications. Voila, you have a life to slip >into. While only a small percentage of deaths will match the needed >specifications (including being in an area where you have an agent >necessary to rub out info about the death), the sheer number of human >deaths should mean that there are always a couple handy. Hey, I kinda like this one. Note that if the death is inconspicuous (a quiet heart attack, or suchlike), the celestial might simply move in and take over without anyone being the wiser. There are complications, of course. Is the celestial taking over the vacated body, or disposing of it and whipping up a new one? And how much does he know about the deceased? Hmm... he'd be able to get a debriefing from the soul of the late departed... *if* that person was heading for the appropriate destination... hmm. Doug M. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 22:30:02 PDT From: "Doug Muir" Subject: IN> IN- Why not spread the Word (was RE: Roles and what to do...) > When I was a Catholic (Theravada Buddhist now), I was puzzled why we >didn't just have angels come down and spread the Good News. I read >something a while back (forget the source), which may answer the >question. Basically, it said that God wanted people to follow him by >Faith, and not Fear. If the Host were to just come to the world, fear >and not love would overwhelm people... and the Infernal would win, as the >borderline cases would run in terror at the 60-foot six-eyed Seraph is >celestial form telling them that God loves everyone... Umm, some disagreement here. This is the reason *Hell* doesn't show its hand. A clear demonstration of the existence of demons would, of course, cause every rational thinking person to immediately change their ways and follow the straight and narrow path (we will set aside, for the moment, the question of what proportion of humanity is actually rational and thinking). If I were seeing the minions of Tartarus live on the evening news, believe me, I would change my life. Heaven's situation is somewhat trickier. If I knew angels were real, I don't know if it would make me run in terror... though it might; in the Bible, angelic appearances are often preceded by the angel saying, "Be not afraid!". But whether it spooked me or not, I think it would definitely have the following negative effects: 1. The destruction of faith. Faith is largely or wholly unnecessary if we *know* God and his angels exist. The IN canon fuzzes the importance of faith or the lack thereof... but since all three major monotheistic religions place heavy hevy emphasis on it, I think we can assume that it's at least significant. 2. Spiritual slacking. If I know that angels are out there, and are tasked with helping me, I may just not want to work that hard... on being a better person, or on anything, really. "Sure, I have a drinking problem. Hey, you guys have a Song that'll fix that, right? What? You won't just _solve_ my problem? Okay, well, then I'm just going to have another shot of tequila... and it's *not* my problem anymore, God boy; it's *your* fault for not doing your job and helping me... So Heaven and Hell have different, but equally compelling reasons to keep things quiet. Doug M. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 01:20:43 -0400 From: "BonBon" <080648113051@email.msn.com> Subject: IN> Your influences This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BDBC21.6FC89180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I am not a player of Steve Jackson games, but I am interested = in spiritual matters. I looked over your website, and I was astonished = at the accuracy and inclusiveness of much of the information as far as = the nature of angels and such. Where did you get your influences? I = realize that because of certain sensitive topics (ie, Jesus Christ and = such), using actual holy texts for inspiration was not very practical. One thing that did strike me, though, is that your game is heavily = entrenched in Judeo-Christian (probably mostly Christian, for I did not = see Metatron or Zoroastrian angels mentioned). I do not view this as a = bad thing, especially since there is an overwhelming amount of = information on the subject of angels. However, I was wondering whether = or not you took other religious beliefs (such as Hinduism, Buddhism, and = Zoroastrianism) into account when making this game. If you did, please = tell me how you managed to integrate the beliefs of these vastly = different faiths into a complete whole. Obviously, I do not agree with everything you say about the nature = of angels and such (for instance, that people cannot become angels; if = you read Enoch's chronicles, you will see what i mean). I also plan to = make my own RPG about angels, but I hope to be more inclusive with my = definitions of angels and demons and so forth. However, unlike many = people, I hope to base my information on more scholarly sources (admit = it, they seem to make more sense out of it than the dogmatics do). I = welcome any tips or suggestions that you could give me. I especially = need help defining angelic powers in game terms (I use White Wolf = games). I appreciate anything you could say that could assist me. If you want my suggestion, I believe that it does God and your = diverse array of RPG gamers to go outside of the conventions of your = beliefs and explore options in other faiths and cultures besides your = own. For example (just to make myself clear), just because Hindus do = not call angels angels does not mean that they don's believe in them (if = you look close enough, you will notice astonishing parallels between the = different systems; you just have to know where to look); they simply = call them by other names. Gods (lowercase "g") and spirits are often = the labels attatched to them. In other words, do not become bogged down = by the dogmatic labels of Judeo-Christian faiths. That's all. Sincerely, SCH P.S.- If you wish, I could give you some great resources for further = information, although some of it will clash with what you have written. = - ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BDBC21.6FC89180 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hello, I am not a player of Steve = Jackson=20 games, but I am interested in spiritual matters.  I looked over = your=20 website, and I was astonished at the accuracy and inclusiveness of much = of the=20 information as far as the nature of angels and such.  Where did you = get=20 your influences?  I realize that because of certain sensitive = topics (ie,=20 Jesus Christ and such), using actual holy texts for inspiration was not = very=20 practical.
    One thing that did strike me, = though, is=20 that your game is heavily entrenched in Judeo-Christian (probably mostly = Christian, for I did not see Metatron or Zoroastrian angels = mentioned).  I=20 do not view this as a bad thing, especially since there is an = overwhelming=20 amount of information on the subject of angels.  However, I was = wondering=20 whether or not you took other religious beliefs (such as Hinduism, = Buddhism, and=20 Zoroastrianism) into account when making this game.  If you did, = please=20 tell me how you managed to integrate the beliefs of these vastly = different=20 faiths into a complete whole.
    Obviously, I do not agree with = everything=20 you say about the nature of angels and such (for instance, that people = cannot=20 become angels; if you read Enoch's chronicles, you will see what i = mean). =20 I also plan to make my own RPG about angels, but I hope to be more = inclusive=20 with my definitions of angels and demons and so forth.  However, = unlike=20 many people, I hope to base my information on more scholarly sources = (admit it,=20 they seem to make more sense out of it than the dogmatics do).  I = welcome=20 any tips or suggestions that you could give me.  I especially need = help=20 defining angelic powers in game terms (I use White Wolf games).  I=20 appreciate anything you could say that could assist me.
    If you want my suggestion, I = believe that=20 it does God and your diverse array of RPG gamers to go outside of the=20 conventions of your beliefs and explore options in other faiths and = cultures=20 besides your own.  For example (just to make myself clear), just = because=20 Hindus do not call angels angels does not mean that they don's = believe=20 in them (if you look close enough, you will notice astonishing parallels = between=20 the different systems; you just have to know where to look); they simply = call=20 them by other names.  Gods (lowercase "g") and spirits = are often=20 the labels attatched to them.  In other words, do not become bogged = down by=20 the dogmatic labels of Judeo-Christian faiths.  That's = all.
 
Sincerely,
SCH
 
P.S.- If you wish, I could give you some great = resources for=20 further information, although some of it will clash with what you have=20 written. 
- ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BDBC21.6FC89180-- ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #887 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.