From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Aug 3 16:30:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA17939 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 16:30:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA26472 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:18:17 -0500 Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:18:17 -0500 Message-Id: <199808032018.PAA26472@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #894 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, August 3 1998 Volume 01 : Number 894 In this digest: Re: IN> Acting Dissonant -- Why celestials don't Re: IN> Miltonian IN IN> Other Role Issues (was Re: IN> Investigation Re: IN> A new Archangel and plot seed. Re: IN> Enhanced Gabrielite Attunements IN> INC Re: IN> Roles Happen Re: IN> Roles Happen (Re: IN> Roles) IN> Hope you get better Em! Re: IN> Roles Happen Re: IN> INC Re: IN> Roles Happen (Re: IN> Roles) Re: IN> IN- Lost Words? IN> How to Document Existence Re: IN> Roles Happen Re: IN> Multiple Roles? Re: IN> Roles Happen IN> Roles Roles And More Roles IN> Lost Words? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 17:37:15 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Acting Dissonant -- Why celestials don't On Thu, Jul 23, 1998 at 10:27:21PM -0400, David Edelstein wrote: > Yes, it is true. Non-dissonant Seraphim don't actively try to think of ways > to circumvent their dissonance conditions unless it's extremely necessary, > or else they are actively trying to go as far as they can in acting against > their own natures. I don't see how that follows. I think much of the difficulty comes different definitions of "circumventing your dissonance conditions". In any event, the Cherub analogy does not apply, as Cherubim get dissonance for betraying their friends, Superior, and beliefs. That's like trying to bend your joints in a direction > they don't naturally go, seeing how far they can bend without actually > breaking. That's painful, and most people don't make a habit of it unless > they're masochists, and people who do make a habit of it are quite likely > to break something eventually. > > Seraphim of the Wind aren't trying to circumvent their dissonance > conditions, they're trying to tell the truth without revealing what they > don't want to reveal, or without telling the subject what he really wants > to know. I think the best way to resolve the issue of our definitions is for me to give a concrete example of the kind of thing I'm talking about. In one rather short 1-PC scenario, I, as Mithredath, Seraph of the Wind, was offered a job. The circumstances were as follows. Mithredath's motorbike had recently been destroyed. Mithredath did not have the money to get a new bike. Mithredath much preferred the idea of stealing money than stealing a new bike, because tracing stolen money is pragmatically harder. Therefore the offer of work (recovering a stolen object in an illegal manner) was attractive to her. However, she had suspicions about who was hiring her. She had no desire to take a job to retrieve an artifact for a demon from the angel who stole it from the demon. Her solution was, when asked if she'd take the job, to ask about some details, and offer the response "That sounds reasonable". The GM didn't catch it as not actually being acceptance until I told him about it after the conversation was over. Now firstly, I reckon this to be what Neel described as omission and misdirection. Secondly, it was in itself true. Therefore I regard it as circumventing her dissonance conditions while at the same time I don't think it was pushing her nature as far as it would go. I could present the arguments in favour of this kind of behaviour from the standpoint of promoting the Truth, but I'll leave them for later. Suffice to say I don't think it's any different from her saying "I'm called Jenny". It is a subtle distinction (like the distinction between Fast-Talk > and Lying), It seems to me as if you are attempting to distinguish between different varieties of Fast-Talk. but a significant one. And yes, many other Seraphim probably > are made uncomfortable by Seraphim of the Wind....but then, lots of angels > are made uncomfortable by Servitors of Janus. > I can understand bits of Janus' mindset, which is quite different from my own. There are paradoxes involved, because I can see him manipulating human society on a large scale, but at the same time being against hurting the free will of specific individuals. I can fit the Cherub of the Wind attunement into this with some difficulty, but I'm still not quite sure of it. If I had the time and energy, I'd do a writeup, but I don't think I do. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 17:40:34 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Miltonian IN On Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 12:22:17PM -0500, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > How much of the lines you quote come from the mouth of Satan or > another devil? I think the first chunk is from a diabolical > speech, so we needn't expect it to be more than propagnda. > The first part. The second and last parts were certainly authorial comment. > Also note that the first quotation is only saying, "Well, at > least we won't quarrel because there is nothing in hell worth > quarreling over." > In Miltonian IN, this appears to be true. I regard a variant IN based on this premise to be more interesting than one based on different names for Demon Princes, in any case. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:51:11 -0400 (EDT) From: "York H. Dobyns" Subject: IN> Other Role Issues (was Re: IN> Investigation On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Walter Milliken wrote: > Also, it's like the celestial is connected into other parts of the > Symphony, such that treating him as outside it is almost as unnatural -- > if he were suddenly subtracted, there would be ripples in the Symphony > as well. So he's sort of patched into it -- if you pulled on the > patching, it might hold, or it might rip off, but he's not actually > woven into the main fabric. Interesting metaphor; I wonder how it could be brought into closer harmony with the musical theme IN uses for its description of reality. Something that hasn't surfaced thus far in the discussion of Roles: All of this talk of standing up to mortal investigation is well and good, but what about *celestial* investigation? The rules make it very clear that sure-fire detection of celestials is supposed to be a rare thing; the Malakite resonance, on a 6, can spot a Balseraph, and that's it -- according to the explicit descriptions. But let's have a little look at Mercurians, shall we? Even on modest rolls, a Mercurian can pick up your friends, your relationships both professional and personal, your likes, dislikes, and hobbies, your geographical origin, the name people call you ... To avoid having this be an instant demon-detector, I assumed that whenever a Mercurian resonates a celestial with a Role, it picks up the Role's relationships; after all, that's the essence of that celestial's interaction with humanity. But what happens when there's no Role? "Right. The name his friends call him is Ashkezel, he has a miserable relationship with a boss who terrifies him, he has *no* geographical origin at all, hates most people, and his favorite hobby is torture." Okay, so maybe if this is not what the rules-writers intended, a Merc resonating a Role-less celestial should just draw a blank, as if it tried to resonate an inanimate object. If there's no connection to mortal society, there's no connection, and that's it. However, drawing a total blank on a 3+ check digit is still going to be a dead giveaway; real human beings simply don't, and can't exist in such a void. In terms of building up Roles, I've restricted my players to spending no more than one character point per game session on developing a Role further -- assuming, of course, that they're also roleplaying efforts to do so. This seems (so far) an adequate reflection of the necessary slowness of building up a solid identity. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 12:56:08 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> A new Archangel and plot seed. On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, Jayson Howell wrote: > > This, I think, was a word that should have been in the main book, > > but as yet to be unexplored. > > Not only has the Archangel of the Waters been explored, he's been > destroyed. IPG p.13. (It's ok, at least he took a Demon Prince of > the Ocean down before getting sacked.) Very true, but I like it anyway. Perhaps he's the *new* Archangel of the Waters? Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page. The Gaming Ghetto, at In Nomine: The Last Days, at Walking the Planes, at <(not yet ready)> - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 13:12:25 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Enhanced Gabrielite Attunements On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > > Cherubim > > -------- > > It is the role of Gabriel's Cherubim to burn those who, within the last > > year, have horribly betrayed someone who was devoted to them. These > > people's skin blisters and itches at the touch of the Cherubim of Fire, > > doing 1 die damage every other round up to a number of dice equal to the > > angel's Corporeal Forces. > > > Hmm...the problem with this is that it allows them to fulfill their > dissonance conditions automatically, with hardly any effort. How about this? The Cherub makes a Celestial Forces + Corporeal Forces roll, and the target takes damage equal to the check die on a successful roll. On a failure, the Cherub takes the damage instead. The Cherub may only attempt this a number of times equal to his Celestial Forces, and may not target the same person multiple times for the same betrayal. > > > Elohim > > ------ > > They have the ability to extract the emotional pain from one person, > > which heals that human's heart, and pass it along to anyone else, > > amplified. > > For some reason, I hear the word Habbalah. Yeah, as written. I'd change it so that they may only pass it back into the person who inflicted the emotional pain. > > The victim of the emotional backlash, with a touch, takes a number of > > dice damage to his Celestial Forces equal to the Celestial Forces of > > the angel. > No. Never. The word munchie is inadequate to describe this power. This > attunement causes far too much damage, much more than the Calabim of Lust > attunement, which at least is resistible and can't strip Forces. I agree. I would change it thusly: the Elohite makes a resonance roll against the individual who caused the emotional pain, and the target may make a Will roll to resist. If the target fails to resist, he suffers mind hits equal to the Elohite's check die plus Etherial Forces. Additionally, the target suffers nightmares and guilt about what he has done until the mind hits are healed (suffering a negative penalty on all rolls equal to the Elohite's Ethereal Forces, unless a successful Will roll is made; one Will roll is made each night). The Elohite may only do this once per time he absorbs emotional pain from an individual. > > Kyriotates > > ---------- > > Kyriotates serving Gabriel can manifest thermal energy -- hot, flickering > > flames which only consume what the angel wishes to burn. > > > Thus making the True Shape of Flame attunement useless. I rather liked this idea, but I wouldn't allow them to burn anything when manifested as flame (unless they have an appropriate attunement). Of course, I don't remember what True Shape of Flame does... > Personally, I liked Hitherby's stuff, though I think giving the Elohim 1 > in Artistry is a bit too little. Adding Celestial Forces to Artistry would > be better, or giving them something analogous to the Cherub of Flowers > attunement. I must have missed his stuff. Could someone re-post it? Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page. The Gaming Ghetto, at In Nomine: The Last Days, at Walking the Planes, at <(not yet ready)> - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:17:42 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: IN> INC Hey - I just came back from the doctor, and the prognosis is "severe bronchitis". I'm going home to my parents house, so if I get worse I can get to the emergency room easier and I don't have to make food while filled up with codeine. So this means I'm going offline until thursday at best. There will be no updates to the INC while I'm gone, cause well, I'll be gone. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:22:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Jayson Howell Subject: Re: IN> Roles Happen > (Not trying to nit-pick, I'm just curious as to how you make this > consistent). Allow me to illustrate: > So what is the difference between having a role as a street-bum and having > no role, but dressing down and telling people that is what you are? Let's suppose you're a bum (or pretending to be) and an uppity demon comes along and harasses you. In a fit of anger, you kick over your collection of rum bottles (about 1 hit each) and yell at the demon. Oops, you just caused a minor (+1) disturbance. If you've a role, you might not. Granted, when it comes to bums, I don't use roles much, but you could. Apart > from having had to spend CP on it... Could any celestial just step off a > train and assume the role of 'foreign tourist'? Sure. Although, it depends. If you claim to be a Japanese corporate tourist, you'd better not flub when someone says "sumimasen". You've got to act the part. You'd also better not be a fugitive from that sheriff in Nebraska, even if he'll never find you. Why? Because he contradicts the role you're trying to hide in, that's why. > > I do like the notion that if you act in harmony with the symphony then its > corporeal themes will adjust to fit you in. I prefer the mystical model to > the mundane paper-trail because it far better suits the style of game I want > to run, but you can't just walk into an office and act as though you were > the CEO from nowhere, unless you are amazingly good at fast talking ;) Ah, but you CAN talk someone into accepting responsibility for you in the US, get a student visa, become a naturalized citizen, graduate with a degree in business and climb the corporate ladder, than yes, you can have a role as a corporate CEO. (No forged documents, I might add.) Sound too long and difficult for someone with an Archangel's power to go through? Try the alternative as presented by those on this list that would have us believe retroactive roles are acceptable to higher ups: I suppose if your GM was wishy washy and wanted to give you a role to make your life easier, he could get a few Archangels, angels, and relievers together to alter the memories, documentation, and physical objects of your entire environment to suit, but that'd be a big project. Just think, you'd have to alter all the employees who think he's the CEO. You'd have to alter all the *past* employees who think they worked with him. You'd have to alter all of the disgruntled customers who want to write mean nasty letters to the president. Oh, and all those employees? You'd have to alter their families memories of when the employee came home and mentioned that Mrs. Whoever, the new CEO wants to change corporate policy. And all their friends that they share this with, they'll have to be altered too. Don't worry, it gets worse. The entire staff of any financial magazine that ever mentioned the woman would have to be altered. Don't forget the thousands of people who read that article, all over the world. Oh, and their families should be hit just in case they read out loud. Thousands of libraries will have to have their archives infiltrated and every copy of those periodicals will have to be altered to reflect the change. The librarians too. While we're at it, what about the newspapers that publish press releases with this CEO's name in it? You know those paperboys who carry the paper and get bored and read little bits here and there? What about their parents? Hmmm... wasn't one of those press releases affecting a small town in Nebraska, whose news station dutifully broadcast it over a quarter of the state? They'll have to be manipulated... What about the business professor at UCSB? You know, the one who used this company to illustrate a point in one of his lectures? Much less, all the hundreds of freshmen who attended that lecture 3 years ago. Ok, granted some of them have since moved to different areas. And what about that one who is currently deployed aboard the SSBN Georgia? Who's going to track a ballistic missile sub and sneak aboard in order to mess with his mind? Criminitley people, didn't "It's a Wonderful Life" teach you how many lives one person touches? If you're going to go retroactively, you've a BIG job ahead of you. There's no reason you can't forge documents in order to establish a role, but there are many reasons not to rely on such measures. > > By this model, I'd guess the determining factor in how high a level you can > take for your role is how long you have been acting it out. How long might > it take to get a role at level 1, bearing in mind that you can't have a role > at higher status than level? How does anyone ever get a high status role > this way, or do they still have to live the life from childhood (which > presumably counts as low status)? Correction, you can't have Status at higher than Role level. There's a big difference. It means the bigger you want to be, the longer you have to work at it. How long will it take to get a level one role? It's up to your GM. My rule of thumb is: Whenever you've convinced me that people around you accept your role as who you are, and there's NO ONE who says different. (Well, aside from other celestials.) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 12:20:44 -0500 From: The Bard Subject: Re: IN> Roles Happen (Re: IN> Roles) > A role doesn't require documentation. None. Nada. What a role > requires is that no amount of background checking will *disprove* the > role. Not that it will be proven through extensive FBI searches. If > you come up with documentation, if you come up with ID, if you come up > with friends back home, that merely adds to what you can do with your > role. I like what you are saying here friend. Of courese a ASoiux Shaman needs no ID but a army solder does. So at times ID is need but the point is a role is part of the Symphony. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:40:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: IN> Hope you get better Em! - ---"Emily K. Dresner" wrote: > > > Hey - > > I just came back from the doctor, and the prognosis is "severe > bronchitis". > So this means I'm going offline until thursday at best. There will be no > updates to the INC while I'm gone, cause well, I'll be gone. > > - Em > > Get better soon Em! :) We'll try and survive while you recover! Graveyard Greg _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 12:35:21 -0500 From: The Bard Subject: Re: IN> Roles Happen > (Not trying to nit-pick, I'm just curious as to how you make this > consistent). Thats the deal it is not consistent. Like all thinks. whith that I am taking mayself out of the conversations on roles. If anyone e-mails privitely I will offer ideas. But list will hit the trash from now on. Thanx Bye :-) > > > jo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 12:37:03 -0500 From: The Bard Subject: Re: IN> INC Hope you get well soon Emily K. Dresner wrote: > Hey - > > I just came back from the doctor, and the prognosis is "severe > bronchitis". I'm going home to my parents house, so if I get worse I can > get to the emergency room easier and I don't have to make food while > filled up with codeine. > > So this means I'm going offline until thursday at best. There will be no > updates to the INC while I'm gone, cause well, I'll be gone. > > - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:50:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Jayson Howell Subject: Re: IN> Roles Happen (Re: IN> Roles) That's it. A role gives you NOTHING as far as background! A role just gives you a place to hide within the Symphony from causing disturbance so long as you're obeying the concept of the role. In this example, the celestial would first need to get into the army, with appropriate documentation in order to get a role as a soldier. Will the role provide it? No. Do your own work. Will your superior alter the world and slip you in? Didn't you read my last post? -Jayson - ---The Bard wrote: > > > > > A role doesn't require documentation. None. Nada. What a role > > requires is that no amount of background checking will *disprove* the > > role. Not that it will be proven through extensive FBI searches. If > > you come up with documentation, if you come up with ID, if you come up > > with friends back home, that merely adds to what you can do with your > > role. > > I like what you are saying here friend. Of courese a ASoiux Shaman needs no > ID but a army solder does. So at times ID is need but the point is a role is > part of the Symphony. > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Aug 98 14:11 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> IN- Lost Words? >> I agree that many of the other extinct species probably >> have bigger problems, though I'd claim that anyone Word-bound to a >> popular dinosaur species is probably OK, if they hung on this long. > >...or this angel/demon of said extinct species could put a bug in Steven >Spielberg's ear to make a multi-million dollar movie about it. The angel of >T-rex's probably regained a little strength if only for a little while due to >the popularity of Jurassic Park. Actually, dinosaurs have been popular in the public consciousness for a lot longer ago than that. Think of all the bad 50s "SF" movies with lost civilizations and dinosaurs. Hollywood has had a fascination with the beasts for a long time. Which suggests that there *is* no Angel of Dinosaurs, but there is probably a Demon of Dinosaurs, and he's friendly with Nybbas.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:18:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Jayson Howell Subject: IN> How to Document Existence Get a birth certificate. That's it. You think it's harder than that? Somehow... I seem to collect a steady paycheck... Here's how a celestial could do it. (Admittedly, he'll need a few friends.) First, your birth certificate needs to be mailed to you. How do you get one? What do *you* think soldiers are for? Second, you have someone associated with the war bill you for services rendered. Have them mail it to your address. That's it. With an authorized copy of a birth certificate and a bill sent to your address, many states will issue you a photo ID. Night Music sets a precedent for this *in canon* to keep your celestials from having to carry fake ID's. (NM p.102) How hard is that? BUT, it doesn't grant you a role in and of itself. You still have to play a certain role before the Symphony lets you get away with it. -Jayson _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 19:33:43 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Roles Happen At 10:22 03/08/98 -0700, you wrote: >> So what is the difference between having a role as a street-bum and >having >> no role, but dressing down and telling people that is what you are? > >Let's suppose you're a bum (or pretending to be) and an uppity demon >comes along and harasses you. In a fit of anger, you kick over your >collection of rum bottles (about 1 hit each) and yell at the demon. >Oops, you just caused a minor (+1) disturbance. If you've a role, you >might not. Right, there _is_ a mechanics difference. I meant in the way the celestial behaves. What is the difference between being a good actor and having a role? At what point does the symphony work with you instead of against you, in the case of a role where you wouldn't be expected to know many people anyway. What if the celestial just isn't a great actor? Do you think you require to have high emote and fast talking skills to acquire a role? >> I do like the notion that if you act in harmony with the symphony >then its >> corporeal themes will adjust to fit you in. I prefer the mystical >model to >> the mundane paper-trail because it far better suits the style of >game I want >> to run, but you can't just walk into an office and act as though you >were >> the CEO from nowhere, unless you are amazingly good at fast talking ;) > >Ah, but you CAN talk someone into accepting responsibility for you in >the US, get a student visa, become a naturalized citizen, graduate >with a degree in business and climb the corporate ladder, than yes, >you can have a role as a corporate CEO. (No forged documents, I might >add.) (I'm not convinced getting into the US is quite that easy -- at least I had always gotten the impression that immigrations people were rather tough). OK, so you are saying that you do have to begin with a youngish vessel and live the role out. That wasn't clear to me before. I stil prefer the hand-waving approach. Celestials just are mystical beings and people's senses of reality will accept quite a lot as long as nothing overt contradicts them IMO. I also allow celestials with roles to take time off their day jobs on a fairly ad hoc basis, to pursue celestial business (the higher the role level, the more time they need to spend at their 'desk' to maintain it). > >Sound too long and difficult for someone with an Archangel's power to >go through? Try the alternative as presented by those on this list >that would have us believe retroactive roles are acceptable to higher >ups: I'm not arguing with you, dammit :P > >I suppose if your GM was wishy washy and wanted to give you a role to >make your life easier, he could get a few Archangels, angels, and >relievers together to alter the memories, documentation, and physical >objects of your entire environment to suit, but that'd be a big project. OK, I'll argue now. Call me wishy-washy if you like but I have no problems with superiors having some ability to mould their angels into human society, to manipulate the ways in which the themes of their words mesh with the corporeal world to create roles for their servitors (it does mean that roles created in this way will always bear soem relation to the superior's word but I don't see that as a problem). People are flexible, they don't always know other people as well as they think, they will adapt in the same way as an oyster adapts to having a grain of sand placed inside it. It's not an easy option. An angel with a role has a privileged place in a superior's work on earth and is expected to uphold the role and use it to forward the superior's word. I do think it is fairly easy to utterly break your own role by not harmonising with the symphony in the way your role was intended to do. The celestial might only be aware that they have gone too far the very first time they create a disturbance when they hadn't been used to doing so. >> How >long might >> it take to get a role at level 1, bearing in mind that you can't >have a role >> at higher status than level? >Correction, you can't have Status at higher than Role level. That's precisely what I did say. So my hypothetical celestial steps off the bus and decides to pretend to be a foreign tourist from some place he speaks the language, assuming he can manage an appropriate accent. No-one knows any differently. He walks into a hotel and gets a room. Now he goes up to that room and the door handle is a bit loose, enough that he accidentally pulls it off. All the mortals and hotel staff think he is a foreign tourist who isn't used to the local doors (which in a sense, he is). Does it make a disturbance or not? :) You say that the bigger you want to be the longer you have to work at it. But how precisely can you work at being something big from scratch? I can certainly buy that a celestial could build its own role, but I don't see that as necessarily the only way, or the norm. jo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Aug 98 14:42 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Multiple Roles? > What I'm wondering about is whether people think that a character >could have multiple Roles (never mind how they're established). Would a >character be able to use two seperate identities? What is they had two >different Vessels to swap between, one per Role? For Roles I would give the following guidelines in my campaign: - you can have one high-level Role, or several lower-level ones; generally it is impossible to maintain multiple high-level Roles at once. - normally, every vessel has its own Role, or has none at all; sharing a Role between vessels is very difficult, but not totally impossible. (Kyrios have similar problems with Roles.) - it is possible for one vessel to have multiple Roles, but it's rather uncommon, especially in modern times -- a multi-Role vessel is more likely to become a single Role with multiple facets (and be deemed a probable spy/underworld figure/etc.) In more ancient times, the same vessel might have been used in different geographic areas without risk of confusion of Roles. - a vessel can have multiple Roles over its existance, as well, but they need to be well-separated in time and space to avoid getting them joined together. A good rule of thumb for Roles might be: "the more likely two Roles of the same vessel are to meet, or to intersect with a common set of other people, the less they can be maintained separately. > And what's with Seraphim & Roles? I mean, it's obvious you get into >trouble without a Role (and the Seraph in my last game played this up >wonderfully), but is claiming a Role a lie? It's implied that it isn't, >since only servitors of Litheroy are banned from having one - but the >Litheroy writeup says that Roles are a lie! I'm of the opinion that >Seraphim should be able to use Roles as effectively as other PCs, >otherwise they lose some of the general fun, but what do others think? I thought there was some stuff in the FAQ about Seraphim and "use-names", but I can't find it. It may have simply been posts by John Karakesh about the subject, that didn't make it into the FAQ. As I recall, the main point of that discussion was that it wasn't necessarily a problem if a Seraph has a Role with a name attached. He *is* that person, as far as the Symphony is concerned, it's just not the totality of his being. Litheroy is rather hard-nosed on the subject, and tends to see lies in places others do not. Thus *he* sees Roles as lies, but all Seraphim don't necessarily see things that way -- Litheroy is driven by his Word into an extreme point of view. However, I suspect most Seraphim are at least uncomfortable with Roles. One NPC Seraph of mine only uses human names that are fairly close to her angelic one, for example. That's not a lie as much as it's a translation. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:29:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Jayson Howell Subject: Re: IN> Roles Happen - ---Jo Hart wrote: > Right, there _is_ a mechanics difference. I meant in the way the celestial > behaves. What is the difference between being a good actor and having a > role? At what point does the symphony work with you instead of against you, > in the case of a role where you wouldn't be expected to know many people > anyway. What if the celestial just isn't a great actor? Do you think you > require to have high emote and fast talking skills to acquire a role? I don't think it's about ability so much as stability. If you follow a role, and you *don't* break it, the Symphony will let you slip in. > >Ah, but you CAN talk someone into accepting responsibility for you in > >the US, get a student visa, become a naturalized citizen, graduate > >with a degree in business and climb the corporate ladder, than yes, > >you can have a role as a corporate CEO. (No forged documents, I might > >add.) > > (I'm not convinced getting into the US is quite that easy -- at least I had > always gotten the impression that immigrations people were rather tough). It's typically not, unless you know the right people. You'd be surprised though. It's pretty easy, especially for Canadians, to get into this country. Literally all it requires is that a US citizen take full responsibility for you while you're here. (You'd be amazed what you learn about immigration when you're dating an Australian girl.) It's harder to get a student visa, but that's easier to obtain once you're actually in the US. From there, it's easier to get a work visa if you're already done with school. Again, a US citizen has to take responsibility for you. > OK, so you are saying that you do have to begin with a youngish vessel and > live the role out. That wasn't clear to me before. I stil prefer the > hand-waving approach. Celestials just are mystical beings and people's > senses of reality will accept quite a lot as long as nothing overt > contradicts them IMO. Ah, but are you fooling people or slipping into a niche in the Symphony? I'm implying there's a distinct difference between not getting caught, and belonging there. I also allow celestials with roles to take time off > their day jobs on a fairly ad hoc basis, to pursue celestial business (the > higher the role level, the more time they need to spend at their 'desk' to > maintain it). Yup, I'd go with that one. > > > >Sound too long and difficult for someone with an Archangel's power to > >go through? Try the alternative as presented by those on this list > >that would have us believe retroactive roles are acceptable to higher > >ups: > > I'm not arguing with you, dammit :P Oh, sorry. ;-) > > > >I suppose if your GM was wishy washy and wanted to give you a role to > >make your life easier, he could get a few Archangels, angels, and > >relievers together to alter the memories, documentation, and physical > >objects of your entire environment to suit, but that'd be a big project. > > OK, I'll argue now. Call me wishy-washy if you like but I have no problems > with superiors having some ability to mould their angels into human > society, to manipulate the ways in which the themes of their words mesh > with the corporeal world to create roles for their servitors (it does mean > that roles created in this way will always bear soem relation to the > superior's word but I don't see that as a problem). People are flexible, > they don't always know other people as well as they think, they will adapt > in the same way as an oyster adapts to having a grain of sand placed inside > it. My only problem with that is that it opens up a whole messy can of worms. I've no problem with a superior saying "report to Otis monday morning, here's your driver's license" but I draw the line when we start actually tampering with people's minds. Why not just tamper with them all the time and use them like pawns? I imagine both God and Lucifer would outlaw direct tampering on any permanent basis on the grounds that "We have to see what happens with Free Will." I never got the impression the arguement died with Eden. > >> How > >long might > >> it take to get a role at level 1, bearing in mind that you can't > >have a role > >> at higher status than level? > > >Correction, you can't have Status at higher than Role level. > > That's precisely what I did say. Sorry, guess I read it wrong. > > So my hypothetical celestial steps off the bus and decides to pretend to be > a foreign tourist from some place he speaks the language, assuming he can > manage an appropriate accent. No-one knows any differently. He walks into a > hotel and gets a room. Now he goes up to that room and the door handle is a > bit loose, enough that he accidentally pulls it off. All the mortals and > hotel staff think he is a foreign tourist who isn't used to the local doors > (which in a sense, he is). Does it make a disturbance or not? :) > > You say that the bigger you want to be the longer you have to work at it. > But how precisely can you work at being something big from scratch? I can > certainly buy that a celestial could build its own role, but I don't see > that as necessarily the only way, or the norm. For a level one role, with status of one, it's a bit easier. Just be who you are. As to when the Symphony starts masking your traces, that's up to the GM. I require a few days minimum. The trick comes in raising the level of your role. Moreso when status is involved. It's GM's discretion, and I've no problem with instant fabrication of roles. What gets me is the whole "Jedi Mind Trick" tactic and the implied need for extensive documentation. It is these two concepts that I'm arguing against, and it's these two I hoped to discredit with my examples of the bum and the CEO. -Jayson _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:19:47 -0700 From: "Akira" Subject: IN> Roles Roles And More Roles The character who got caught in customs did NOT HAVE A ROLE! That's why he got in trouble. The theme on the list so far, is that a character who spends the points to (rightly) make more sense and NOT BE INVESTIGATED is being punished for this. The players buy roles to avoid the problems of not having aplace in the symphony, not to be scrutinized over it. The non-role player used to lie about being a reporter, but didn't spend the points on a role. They got investigated and found out as being a nobody! So I would lay off the characters that have wisely chosen a role as opposed to spending the points in songs or skills or resources. They are only HELPING the storyline and the ROLEPLAYING. Thanxs, AKIRA--- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:57:14 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Lost Words? From: "Doug Muir" >H'm. That argument would apply to pretty much every form of technology, from flint hand-axes to slide rules. So, if we take your position, technological Words are left empty, or only filled by stupid angels. Ditto for words representing political entities, corporations, etc. < Lets see Technological or Political Words that should endure until the apocalypse is over. Some of these are arguable but: Storage Media Lightning* Freedom Oppression Totalitarianism Justice Equality Small c conservatism Little Englandism Millsian Libralism Steam Powered Vehicles Flying Vehicles Cloth Mining Farming The Scientific Method Networks* Communications Marketing Advertising Documentation Boats Pollution Facism Computational Aids * names definately exist. Note that Lightning in Angelic seems to cover all forms of advanced technology. >The Angel of Macintoshes faces an uncertain future, < Not while waterproof coats still exist. Adam Dahak@Comuserve.com this of course leaves Our friend the Metranon who's word is Logos ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #894 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.