From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Aug 6 11:20:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18087 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:20:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id LAA31859 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:11:01 -0500 Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:11:01 -0500 Message-Id: <199808061611.LAA31859@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #900 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, August 6 1998 Volume 01 : Number 900 In this digest: Re: IN> Looking for Love...Archangel, that is... Re: IN> Is hippocracy a sin? Re: IN> Is hippocracy a sin? Re: IN> Is hippocracy a sin? Re: IN> Looking for Love...Archangel, that is... Re: IN> Is hippocracy a sin? IN> Is hippocracy a sin? Re: IN> Lost Words? Re: IN> Lost Words? Re: IN> Lost Words? IN> Lost Words? Re: IN> Is hippocracy a sin? Re: IN> Re: IN- Shedim Problem (Re: Why not spread the Word) IN> Hypocrisy is a sin -- bad spelling is just annoying IN> Tricky Lightbringer... (Was: Lost Words?) IN> Best-suited Superiors Re: IN> Lost Words? Re: IN> Is hippocracy a sin? Re: IN> Lost Words? Re: IN> Enhanced Gabrielite Attunements IN> Re: Shedim Problem IN> Shedim Problem Re: IN> Lost Words? Re: IN> IN- Lost Words? Re: IN> Lost Words? IN> Metatron IN> Plot Seed: The Tar Baby ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 15:49:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "York H. Dobyns" Subject: Re: IN> Looking for Love...Archangel, that is... On Wed, 5 Aug 1998, Adam Canning wrote: [...] > IIRC the Mishne Torah has both Raphael and Satan as Malakim. But then it is > sort of implied in kabbalistic texts that humans can summon malakim... According to a couple of my players who happen to be Jewish, and therefore know some Hebrew, "malak" simply means "messenger": it is therefore rather exactly translated into greek as "angelos", the word from which English "angel" is derived. In other words, if a real-world esoteric reference calls some entities "malakim" it is simply calling them angels. Not terribly informative for IN Choir purposes. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 16:10:38 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Is hippocracy a sin? On Wed, 5 Aug 1998, Chris Crowe wrote: > >>>- -David, longing for the days when only grown-ups could afford > Internet access<<< > > Am i the only one who found what he said offensive? No. I found it incredibly offensive myself. Admittedly, I was bored by thread complaining about how nobody ever responds to posts, but that was uncalled for. Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't there a rule about "no flaming" on this list? I think there needs to be a public apology to this list for that remark, since the remark was made to the list. > Insults toward people for wanting to know what we think about their > posts is most definately not something i want to spend my time > downloading. Feedback is what this list is for. Exactly. > And i especially don't like hearing a self proclaimed "grown-up" downing > on someone who may or may not be a child for work that they submitted > for our critique. > It's just not right. Again, I agree. Disagreement should be allowed on the list. Rational statements of why you dislike a post or an argument should be allowed. But there is no call for insulting someone, or mocking someone. Perhaps it makes me childishas well, but if "grown-up" behavior is defined as mockery and snide comments, than I have no desire to be a "grown-up"/ > Since i doubt Beth will repremand him for his actions, i think someone > needs to say something. I wouldn't jump to conclusions about that. I would assume that Beth would have handled it in private e-mail. But I do think a public apology is still needed. Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page. The Gaming Ghetto, at In Nomine: The Last Days, at Walking the Planes, at <(not yet ready)> - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 21:13:23 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Is hippocracy a sin? At 10:41 05/08/98 PDT, you wrote: > >Insults toward people for wanting to know what we think about their >posts is most definately not something i want to spend my time >downloading. Feedback is what this list is for. He got feedback. Be careful what you ask for... jo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 13:29:41 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Is hippocracy a sin? I waited, and since no one seems to want to reply to this one; I will. >[clipping three posts worth of whining and complaining about people >sending stuff to the list that he apparently didn't want to read] > >>>>- -David, longing for the days when only grown-ups could afford >Internet access<<< > >Am i the only one who found what he said offensive? >Insults toward people for wanting to know what we think about their >posts is most definately not something i want to spend my time >downloading. Feedback is what this list is for. I see your point, what's the next step? Do we axe anyone from the list that says something bad about someone else? Sure, it was easy to see in this case, but what about a sarcastic response? Are you going to flag down all of those as offensive? What about if someone puts a defimating statement in another post (I saw one this week refering to their arguing someone else's view on Roles as tedious); will those go on you crusade against hypocracy? Armand, Proponent of taking it on the chin, and smiling back ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 13:30:06 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Looking for Love...Archangel, that is... On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 4:33 PM -0500 8/4/98, Eeyore wrote: > >Not to get started again, but I can't figure out WHY this word hasn't been > >re-filled. It seems like an awfully big omission to me. The same holds > >for the Word of Humour. Heaven seems to be conceding an awful lot of > >powerful ground to the infernals for no particularly good reason. > There are several reasons. > > #1: It's like leaving the light on for the runaway coming home. > (Hey, look, your old room is still there.) that's a very hopeful notion that i can really see the Counsil using to validate the Word's vacancy. poignent, and it leaves some plot seeds open. sweet! > #2: The Word's former owner FELL. The second angel of Fortitude is > a Malakite... LOL prudent replacement ;) since i can't recall off-had, who was the first Angel of Fortitude? > #3: Princes tend to get snitty at angels who hold their Words, and > go out of their way to use them for playthings. i rather think Gabriel would use Beliel as a plaything instead of the other way around. and toe-to-toe, i'm betting on Michael rather than Baal. other, as-yet-to-be documented or simply N/PC celestials are free to be exceptions, of course ;) > #4: Sometimes a Word's scope has been absorbed enough by other Words > that it's not necessary. (Love is gone, but Flowers incorporates > some aspects and promotes those, while Creation promotes others.) > > #5: Sometimes the Right Angel For The Job just hasn't shown up yet. completely non-canonical guess as to when that is: after the final trumpet has been blown and the Final Battle fought--providing Heaven wins, of course. -=|horsefly|=- "Back off, preacher, I don't care if it's Sunday. I ain't no angel, but I never felt better!" --FREEDOM, Alice Cooper ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 16:30:10 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Is hippocracy a sin? On Wed, 5 Aug 1998, Jo Hart wrote: > At 10:41 05/08/98 PDT, you wrote: > > > >Insults toward people for wanting to know what we think about their > >posts is most definately not something i want to spend my time > >downloading. Feedback is what this list is for. > > He got feedback. Be careful what you ask for... No. He got flamed. There are far better ways of handling someone you find annoying, than mocking and insulting them. Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page. The Gaming Ghetto, at In Nomine: The Last Days, at Walking the Planes, at <(not yet ready)> - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 13:30:46 PDT From: "Doug Muir" Subject: IN> Is hippocracy a sin? >Is hippocracy a sin? No. But not spellchecking your posts is sort of annoying. >Am i the only one who found what he said offensive? >Insults toward people for wanting to know what we think about their >posts is most definately not something i want to spend my time >downloading. I didn't have strong feelings one way or another about the original fanfic (though I did wish the guy would fix his spelling. Everybody has a spellchecker now, and posting stuff that is chock-full of spelling errors is sloppy and shows a lack of respect for the people you're posting to). I personally agreed with David that it was somewhat irritating for the poster to come back complaining that nobody had commented on his story. Although it is always disappointing when no-one seems to pay attention, that is no excuse for posting an ALL-CAPS DEMAND FOR ATTENTION. This is just bad manners. On the other hand, I didn't feel that it warranted a flame, even a mild one. I agree that David was wrong to be so harsh on this person... and I sent him a nice, polite private e-mail saying so (and got a nice, polite reply). Bad manners are almost never the answer to bad manners. >And if she (or anybody else for that matter) finds this post more >offensive than Mr Edelstein's, than won't feel bad about it. I can't >feel bad about saying what's right. If what's right makes people >angry then that >should tell you something about their affilliation with the Host. ;) Well... David probably feels exactly the same way about _his_ post -- that is, it may have been offensive but that was OK because it was "right". It is always easy to excuse or explain rudeness by saying "It was correct," or "It was the truth". How about we just let this thread die here? Or, if anyone wants to continue it, then cc _only_ those people who have indicated an interest - -- myself, Crowe, presumably David, and anyone else who raises their hand. Otherwise, we might end up with one of those incredibly tedious "You were rude and wrong," "No, YOU were rude and wrong," threads. I've seen those happen, and they're worse than Spam. Cheers, Doug M. dougmuir@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:15:53 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: Re: IN> Lost Words? From: Peter Frederick >IMHO you can't just pin a Word to anyone, not that either Lucifer or the Seraphic Council would.< The Demon of Taking Credit for other peoples work and the Demon of Insubordination both seemed to recognise the failings in thier word before they got them. Lucifer gives demons words as he feels like it. The Seraphim council on the other hand have been known to hold contests to see who is best for a word. The Angel of comforting the bereived for example. Adam As to wheather lucifer has ever given non demons words, meditate on the write up as to what happens if an anfgel sings the song of summoning the lightbearer for the millionth time. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:15:51 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: Re: IN> Lost Words? From: CaelinR@aol.com > Pondering #2: What is so special about Lucifer that allows him to grant words? We know (from his defeat at Michael's hands during the revolt) that he is at least roughly within the power-range of other major Superiors (perhaps greater, but certainly not their better by orders of magnitude). Would it be possible for another superior to bestow a word? Perhaps two collaborating? < Because he's Gods Brother? Because the Demons believe he can? Because God gave him that atunement as chief of the heavenly host? Adam ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 16:43:56 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Lost Words? On Wed, 5 Aug 1998, Adam Canning wrote: > As to wheather lucifer has ever given non demons words, meditate on the > write up as to what happens if an anfgel sings the song of summoning the > lightbearer for the millionth time. Lilith is technically still human (according to her description in _In Nomine_), and was granted the word of Freedom by Lucifer. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 14:55:22 PDT From: "Doug Muir" Subject: IN> Lost Words? >I know this is going to sound, a little strange for this topic, but give >me a second. Where does Yves get the books he has in his Library? >Answer: Some of them are the remains of Angels who have lost their >words. Rather than put them out to pasture in a Celestial >nursing/retirement home, as someone has suggested, they take the form of >books, complete with all the knowledge that the "retiring" angel had >accumulated during their lifetimes. Huh. Okay. >Also, when some angels feel that >their memories are getting too heavy and many to carry with them, they >may choose to have their memories edited at Yves' Library, where their >dumped knowledge become books on the shelves. Sure. Absolutely. It's canon that something happens to angelic memories to prevent most of them from recalling anything beyond the last few centuries or so. An interesting plot seed: someone wants to sneak into the Library to *edit* some of those stored memories... "Yes, you were in Istanbul in 1914, and I can prove it!" >No surprise, then, if it >sometimes seems like the books are alive Right. Heh. Doug M. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 14:48:29 -0700 From: "Akira" Subject: Re: IN> Is hippocracy a sin? Novalis shakes her head and wonders if people will get back on topic. IN-NOMINE please! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 19:30:39 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Shedim Problem (Re: Why not spread the Word) At 10:09 PM -0400 8/4/98, Doug Muir wrote: >If the Djinn couldn't track the Shedim _at all_, there'd be no reason >for these two Bands to hate each other so much. /Months/ ago, John Karkash reccomended a -4 to the Resonance roll for a Cherub to attune to a possessor, rather than the host. It might have been Cheruub and Kyrio, Cherub and Shedite, Djinn and Kyro, or Djinn and shedite. It's been awhile, and he's probably changed his mind on that by now. >Oh, and another trick you can use: get them to buy something from a >Lilim, and pay with a geas. No amount of body-hopping can outrun a geas. Minor Quibble. If the Lilim cannot communicate with you, she cannot request anything of you. So if you know X is a lilim, and she does something for you and you're pretty sure your Hooked, so long as you can avoid her, and any communication from her, she can't turn that into a full-fledged Geas. Though it's pretty difficult to outrun the Celestial Song of Tongues. I'd make any means of direct contact between the Lilim and the target lega for clinching that Geas, though. No "Mr Osborn told me to tell you to steal that rock". so long as they both undrestand the language used I'd also include the negative modifiers for resonance Check Digit on pIN 57 as bonuses to the victims resistance roll. So it's a +1 if the Lilim is shouting at you from 10 to 50 yards away, or with an audio & video reproduction +2 if it's an audio reproduction, like a phone call, or tape recording, or, for these purposes, the Celestial Song of Tongues. +3 if it's a visual reproduction only, such as a letter or email written personally by the Lilim. I might be convinced to use the proximity bonuses as penalties, but the target's usually taking such a huge will penalty, it just seems mean. Maybe just a -1 for "Physical contact with the subject." And anway, they don't have to buy anything. That's one of the keen things about Lilim. if they stare into your eyes, and they do something for you, and you reap the benefit from it, they've got you hooked. So a Lilim can pay off your gambling debts, and unless you tell Big Tony "She gave you free money, I still owe you," she's hooked you. ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Trudy, Impudite Captain of Gluttony, the Demon of Popcorn nofori@pop3.utoledo.edu | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 20:18:49 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Hypocrisy is a sin -- bad spelling is just annoying >>>[clipping three posts worth of whining and complaining about people sending stuff to the list that he apparently didn't want to read]<<< Well Krowe, I'm not going to waste time addressing the rest of your post -- someone who refers to himself in the third person and thinks that by posting uninformed flamebait, he's "honorable" and that anyone who disagrees with him is aligned with hell doesn't deserve to be taken seriously. I will point out the most serious factual error in your post, though: my comment about "grown-ups" was _not_ addressed towards the people posting their fiction and asking for feedback. It was specifically referring to the person who responded to Beth's request NOT to repost entire previous messages with just a single line of response attached by _deliberately_ doing exactly that, with three pages of ASCII gibberish (for those of us who use ordinary plain-text readers for our e-mail) following. That was a deliberate and malicious waste of bandwidth for the express purpose of aggravating the rest of the list. As for the other stuff -- let me be clear, I will never say that anyone is not entitled to post whatever they want (as long as it's In Nomine-related) to the list. Much of what gets posted is drek, as on any list, and usually I just do a quick skim and delete it without comment. However, the fact is, most people do that and most people aren't going to bother responding to the list with "I thought it sucked." If you really want critical feedback, participate in a writer's workshop or something -- people here are mostly looking for usable ideas, not many have the time either to assuage young egos or dissect someone's writing style. So when someone isn't satisfied with the level of response he got and sends a 100%-wasted-bandwidth message (with an all-caps subject line) _demanding_ that people pay attention to him.... *that* is what finally set me off. I don't generally engage in bashing of bad writing....but deliberately ANNOYING posts will push my buttons. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 20:40:14 -0500 From: Shadowstar Subject: IN> Tricky Lightbringer... (Was: Lost Words?) >To answer your real question, I have no idea how it is that Lucifer can do >this trick, just thought I'd toss in my 2c worth. Silly mortals, he can do it because he -is- God. Sheash... (How's that for a Balseraph thinking...) - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centuryinter.net # Balseraph Marquis of Fate, Demon of Delusions of Granduer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 20:39:29 PDT From: "Peter Martin" Subject: IN> Best-suited Superiors Well, for me I'd have to say Fire, Stone, and Judgment. Despite my attempt to warp Judgment in the name of some REALLY nasty enemies for angelic PC's, the word fits well. Ask the people who know me. Stone tends to come off as the patron of Blue-collar workers, of which I am one, with all the honesty and stubborn conservatism stereotyped therein. Fire also suits me well. I have a strong sense of righteous fury and cruelty makes my blood boil. I cannot bear to watch people suffer at the hands of other people. So there you have it. Peter ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 00:21:44 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Lost Words? On Wed, 5 Aug 1998, Adam Canning wrote: > From: CaelinR@aol.com > > Pondering #2: What is so special about Lucifer that allows him to > grant > words? We know (from his defeat at Michael's hands during the revolt) that > he > is at least roughly within the power-range of other major Superiors > (perhaps > greater, but certainly not their better by orders of magnitude). Would it > be > possible for another superior to bestow a word? Perhaps two collaborating? > < > > Because he's Gods Brother? Because the Demons believe he can? Because God > gave him that atunement as chief of the heavenly host? I think it's because he's the most powerful Balseraph in existance. He can lie to the Symphony itself and make it stick. Demonic Words only exist because the Symphony believes it; if that lie is ever exposed, the whole power structure of Hell would crumble. Richard Gant Visit my web page. The Gaming Ghetto, at In Nomine: The Last Days, at Walking the Planes, at <(not yet ready)> - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 22:48:55 -0700 From: Killian Darkshade Subject: Re: IN> Is hippocracy a sin? References: <199808051802.NAA10332@lists.io.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All I can say, good sir Krowe, is AMEN. I too was offended by the impolite and offhand manner with which David dismissed the hard work of others. My favorite bit of irony, BTW, was his post ranting and raving about how annoying it is when people send anti-spam messages to the list....which, of course he sent to the list. Let's try, as a group, to avoid this sort of thing from now on out. Any good e-mail list is dependent on folks submitting their own work for public consumption, and they're going to be a lot less likely to do so if it means being slammed as a 'child' writing 'bad fanfic' and 'desperately pleading' for recognition. - ---Killian - -- "I saw the best minds of my generation running on empty, Superglued to the T.V., Dreaming of prosperity, Talking incessantly, Saying nothing, Sleeping on platforms at train stations, Sipping chemical cocktails, Alive to the Universe, Dead to the World." - -- Meg Lee Chin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 23:53:43 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Lost Words? On Wed, 5 Aug 1998, Elizabeth Bartley wrote: > On Wed, 5 Aug 1998, Adam Canning wrote: > > As to wheather lucifer has ever given non demons words, meditate on > > the write up as to what happens if an anfgel sings the song of > > summoning the lightbearer for the millionth time. > Lilith is technically still human (according to her description in _In > Nomine_), and was granted the word of Freedom by Lucifer. yes, but humans have "free will," and while some might argue angels do likewise, i would say that an infernal Word would corrupt an one of the Host to the point of *instantly* Falling. why? because the two don't mix. they Are Not Meant to Be. an angel offered a Word by Lucifer refuses and Runs Away Really Fast (or calls down every single Malakim under the sun!) or he or he dies. failing that, he accepts. he has now Fallen, "do not pass go, do not collect $200." it has be theorized (i don't remember where) that it's only the Word of Freedom that *keeps Lilith alive.* were she to reject it, she might Redeem (in which case she'd probably die physically); she might die and be damned, or Lucifer would simply take back what he offered so long ago with a sigh of disappointment, slurp all of the infernal Forces keeping Lilith alive into himself (effectively soul-killing her, and yes, i think he's the only one who could without fear of reprisal from the other Demon Princes), and then each and every Lilim ever created would spontaneously combust. ohh, pretty... but not very condusive to Hell, i should think. perhaps Lilith has made her choice, and _*CAN NOT*_ be stripped of her Word, effectively keeping her locked in stasis, refusing her the option of changing her mind ever again. -=|horsefly|=- "Back off, preacher, I don't care if it's Sunday. I ain't no angel, but I never felt better!" --FREEDOM, Alice Cooper ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 20:45:40 From: Peter Frederick Subject: Re: IN> Enhanced Gabrielite Attunements At 09:48 PM 4/8/98 -0400, you wrote: > >Okay, borrowing from both Hitherby and the pre-release, I thought I'd >share what *I* am now using as Gabriel's expanded attunements. PIck 'em >apart if you wish... **Snipped most for brevity*** >KYRIOTATES > As long as they have 3 free Forces, these angels can manifest as fire! >Their senses and speech work normally, but they cannot actually burn >anyone or anything. They do feel as hot as normal fire, however, and those >immersed in their flame will probably believe they are burning. >Well? Just a couple of thoughts. How fast can the Fire Form move, does that have to be along a surface? Could it be across the a ceiling? Does this mean that the Kyrio of Fire with this attunement doesn't need to possess a host? How much control do they have over the Fire, eg Flaming Words on a wall? Regards, Peter. Reply to peterf@wr.com.au May the Goddess shelter you in the palm of her hand until we meet again. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 08:54:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: IN> Re: Shedim Problem Just wanted to say a big thanks to everyone for all their suggestions! This will be a big help to me! Greg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 06:56:30 PDT From: "Doug Muir" Subject: IN> Shedim Problem > Just wanted to say a big thanks to everyone for all their suggestions! > This will be a big help to me! Hey, no problem. If you have time, please let us know how it worked out IYC. Doug M. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 10:03:57 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Lost Words? CaelinR@aol.com wrote: > Pondering #2: What is so special about Lucifer that allows him to > grant words? I vote for the theory that ANY Superior *could* grant Words. The AAs do so as a council because of their more cooperative angelic nature; perhaps they ask for divine guidance from God, the way the College of Cardinals asks for it when electing a pope. Anyway, can't DPs grant Words at the sub-Prince level? I mean, does the Demon of Practical Jokes get his Word from Kobal or from Lucifer? And can't individual AAs grant sub-Archangel Words to servitors? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:29:46 +0200 (MET DST) From: Jasper Reijer Floor Subject: Re: IN> IN- Lost Words? On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Doug Muir wrote: > > Do you really think not? I mean... some Words have become _very_ > important, very quickly. All the ones associated with computers, for > instance. And we know there is an Angel of Networks. Unless you're > going to stretch a bit and assume he was watching over plant roots or > something, he's not more than forty years old or so... maybe twice that > if you include phone switching systems. As a computer science student I disagree. There is a subtle but important distinction between computer networks, and networks in general. Yes I consider phone swithcing systems a network. Road systems are a network as well. Maybe it wasn't the intention for the angel of networks to associated with these other concepts, but then either he is not the angel of networks, or he's just gotta cope. And he is alot older than when he got his word as well. > It's hard to believe that Heaven would leave words like Satellites, > Birth Control, International Organizations, Interfaces, Lasers, > Television, or Genetic Engineering to stay unbound for too long... > especially since Hell _will_ be moving to fill those gaps. > upgraded to Artillery. I'd accept it. considering the moon is a satelite, birth control has been around forever (chastity belt anyone?), and International organizations aren't recent (join the templars, see the world) I'll agree heaven won't leave them empty. Now while you could have an angel of interfaces, this would be like having an angel of doorknobs. Yes some doorknobs are prettier than others, but it aint a concept I'd want to represent. Those others may be important enough. But just because hell makes someone wordbound, doesn't mean they have a huge advantage. The demon of Genetic Engineering might be glad of his new word, but he doesn't want to mess Genericel, Malakim servitor of the angel of Biology who is a servitor of Lightning. Said malakim would kick his ass. > >Which isn't to say there aren't many "transient" Words. But the more > >obvious cases probably wouldn't be granted, unless there was a good > >reason (or a good whim, in Lucifer's case). On the other hand, I can > >see a selfless angel taking a transient Word they thought *needed* to > be > >championed, even knowing that it was destined to fade away after its > >purpose was served. And the Council would likely be swayed by such > >arguments. > > I agree with everything you say here, except that I'm not at all sure > the _angel_ would fade with its word. As noted above, the example of > Avery shows that Celestials can survive Word-loss... even if they don't > like it much. Yes Lucifer will grant whimsical words, I think everybody believes that. I'm just trying to say that not every concept has to have an angel looking after it. The angel of belly button lint doesn't sound very usefull. Just because you can imagine a word, doesn't mean it has an angel attached to it. The very not to do this is transience. There never was an angel of amiga. Why would there be? The problem with concepts that are transient is that they aren't that important to the symphony, and thus unfit to be bound to an angel. Maybe the Amiga did have an important effect on the symphony, but what was that effect? that effect will have in it a concept that endured, but the Amiga doesn't (except for the angel of nostalgia). mvg, Jasper Floor "For words are wise men's counters,--they do but reckon by them; but they are the money of fools." Thomas Hobbes - The Leviathan. Part i. Chap. iv ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:39:32 +0200 (MET DST) From: Jasper Reijer Floor Subject: Re: IN> Lost Words? On Wed, 5 Aug 1998 CaelinR@aol.com wrote: > Pondering #1: Is the relationship between angels and their words reciprocal? > If the Angel of the Stock Market gets the tar (and several forces) beaten out > of him, does the market crash? We know that celestials become weaker as their > words wane-- is it possible that the door can swing in both directions? This > supports the above hypothesis about the quality of celestials needed for high- > level words. I would say that it isn't directly reciprocal. I can well imagine a word being hurt by the loss of its guardian angel, as there is then not only noone directly supporting the word, but the demons will be unopposed for a while. same for demons. > Pondering #2: What is so special about Lucifer that allows him to grant > words? We know (from his defeat at Michael's hands during the revolt) that he > is at least roughly within the power-range of other major Superiors (perhaps > greater, but certainly not their better by orders of magnitude). Would it be > possible for another superior to bestow a word? Perhaps two collaborating? Angels are bound to the symphony even more tightly when they get a word. Demons have nothing to do with the symphony. They live in their own delusional world. When they rebelled, they all followed Lucifer. They rejected the symphony, but bound themselve to Lucifer. This allow Lucifer to change their nature to represent a certain concept. I don't think regular arch-angels can do this. When the Seraphim council does it, they are doing so in service of God. God has delegated that duty. mvg, Jasper Floor "For words are wise men's counters,--they do but reckon by them; but they are the money of fools." Thomas Hobbes - The Leviathan. Part i. Chap. iv ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 11:27:52 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Metatron Adam Canning wrote: > Since if there are Archangels in the higher Heavens, The Metratron > may have the word The Word or Almighty, Yofiel the Torah, Haniel > Vision and Shekhinah Love. I think angels of the higher heavens could be interesting plot hooks if not overused. Metatron in particular. The canon says that he was killed by Lucifer in the War in Heaven, but we can work around that. If he's encountered in, or descending from, the higher heavens, it's confirmation that angels just go to (a higher) heaven when they celestially die -- at least sometimes. Waiving that, Metatron himself could be an interesting character. His name is Greek for "Behind the Throne," meaning God's Throne. He is, in a word, the Grand Vizier of Heaven. All sorts of duties and powers have been attributed to Metatron, to the point that he is sometimes called "the lesser Jehovah." From my fragmentary knowledge, it would be adequate if we thought of him as combining the spheres of Yves, Gabriel, and Dominic, and surpassing all of them. Think about the traditional role of Grand Viziers in stories. Given that Metatron is a Good Guy, he wouldn't be self-serving, the way the stereotype is, but he might be strong on "the Lord works in mysterious ways" and celestial intrigue. It might be fun to stick to canon as tightly as possible and keep him shadowy. That is, he doesn't descend from the upper heavens himself, at least in any public way. The Archangels are said to occasionally ascend and re-descend, but without saying what happened. Whenever angels get sent on a particularly convoluted, obscure, and elaborate mission, perhaps scuttlebutt starts to circulate that this is one of Metatron's jobs -- though others deny that Metatron is even alive, and perhaps some especially sceptical angels (and far more demons) disbelieve he ever existed. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 08:50:52 PDT From: "Doug Muir" Subject: IN> Plot Seed: The Tar Baby Here's a plot seed based on an unusual human NPC. It can fit into most campaigns, but would probably be particularly interesting in those where the GM is having trouble with powerful Kyrios or Shedim (hi, Greg). Combat is possible, but basically this is a puzzle scenario where good role-playing is a plus. The Tar Baby "Lock the door, and throw away the key; There's someone in my head, and it's not me." -- Pink Floyd Bobbie Jean Blackburne is a moderately successful Country & Western singer. 28 years old, red-headed and petite, she is presently working on her third album. She's a long way from playing Madison Square, but she has a small cadre of fans, and could fill a small venue in most towns in America. Bobby Jean is a five-Force human, although she has added a couple of points to Agility and Precision by working out and practicing the guitar for years. 1 Corporeal Strength 2 Agility 3 1 Ethereal Intelligence 3 Precision 3 3 Celestial ( Will and Perception both variable) Bobbie Jean is more than she appears, though. She is one of those rare people who have real, honest-to-goodness MPD -- Multiple Personality Disorder. Bobbie Jean's father abused her severely as a child. This was not altogether his own doing... he hated himself and his actions, and repeatedly tried to reform, but h had the bad fortune to be a vacation home for a Shedite. When the demon got tired of corrupting businessmen to cheat their customers and CEOs to trash corporations for their personal gain, it would ooze out to the trailer park for some simple old-fashioned fun: to wit, making Harvey Kloss break his promise not to hurt his little girl... again. Childhood abuse can produce MPD. In Bobbie Jean's case, though, childhood abuse provoked by a Shedite produced something very strange. Not only did Bobbie develop MPD, but she gradually grew several personalities specifically to deal with demons. Bobbie Jean's personalities include: Jean -- the "surface" personality, Jean is (literally) the one who gets up on stage and performs. Jean is _not_ aware of the other personalities. She knows that she has strange blackouts sometimes -- "losing time", she calls it -- but this has happened to her all her life, and she thinks it is some sort of odd but not dangerous chronic condition. Jean has Will 6, Perception 6, and is in most respects a fairly normal young woman. Her friends in the band have occasionally seen some of her other personalities, and been unnerved and alarmed, but they believe she's just "high strung". Bianca -- Bianca is the sensitive and creative personality. She tends to emerge late at night, when she does most of Bobbie Jean's songwriting. She can fake being Jean for short periods of time, but doesn't like to. Bianca is a bit twittery and likes to wear black and quote poetry. Bianca has Will 2 and Perception 10. She also has a psychic ability that works something like a Mercurian's Resonance... sometimes she can find out things about people that she shouldn't really be able to know. Roll against her Perception and use the Mercurian check digit table, but subtract 3 from the check digit If the result is 0, nothing happens. If it is a negative number Bianca will get a creatively _wrong_ idea about someone. One thing she can do that no Mercurian can is detect celestials... at least sometimes, anyway. If a person behaves in an unusual or suspicious manner, give her a perception roll, modified as above. A (modified) positive result on the check digit will tell her that the target is not really human! This will almost always result in Karl being brought forward at once... Mrs. Pentecost -- This personality is the internalized image of Bobby Jean's mother. She is a rigid, narrow-minded religious fanatic. It's always very obvious when she takes over; Bobby Jean's whole manner changes, and she begins ranting about sin and salvation. Mrs. Pentecost hates demons... and she thinks that all celestials are demons (she believes in angels, but will not readily believe that she has met one). She will promptly accost anyone who has been identified as nonhuman by Bianca. She will make a *loud* public scene, screaming that this person is "a Demon! A foul imp of Satan, vomited up from Hell to walk the earth in human form!" She will do this regardless of whether the celestial is a demon or an angel. She won't attack physically, but _will_ encourage others to do so. If allowed to rave on for a while, Mrs. Pentecost will drop references to the Archangel Gabriel. As in, "I have seen the evil of this world! The Angel Gabriel took me up in a dream, in a flaming chariot that ascended to Heaven, and I saw the sin of this vile world squriming beneath us like loathsome serpents in the mud!" She doesn't actually have any connection to Gabriel, though. Mrs. Pentecost has Perception 3, Will 9. Baby Lamb -- Baby Lamb is the personality who handles joy. She is a sweet, happy four-year old... the child that Bobby Jean should have been. She comes forward when something really nice happens to Bobby Jean, but she never stays very long. It's pretty obvious when she is present -- Bobby Jean will be clapping her hands and giggling and saying things like "Ooh, goody! Play!" Perception 4, Will 2. Jolene -- Jolene handles Bobby Jean's sex life (Jean occasionally wonders why she doesn't have much success in that department...). She's exaggeratedly vampy and very much a love 'em and leave 'em sort. Jolene comes forward when Bobby Jean is aroused, or sometimes when Karl is distracted. When Bobby Jean suddenly starts speaking in a husky murmur and freshening her lipstick, Jolene has arrived. Perception 4, Will 4. Buddy -- Bianca writes lyrics; Buddy handles music. He's Bobby Jean's inner rock & roller. He's not actually that fond of country, and wishes the group would shift to a cooler sound. He's the only personality who smokes. Buddy is a bit of a weasel, and is the only personality that might actually betray the others if he could somehow be offered the chance to have things _his_ way. When he's running Bobby Jean, she will suddenly adopt male mannerisms and a rather whiny New York accent. Will 3, Perception 5. Ramona -- Ramona is probably the least interesting of Bobbie Jean's personalities. She deals with money and with chores, and balances Jean's checkbook every month. Ramona seems to be neuter and has never shown any sort of emotion... think Mr. Spock with an accounting degree. But she's a very, very good negotiator, and will come forward if Bobby Jean needs to strike a bargain (for instance, if Karl is holding a celestial hostage). She has Perception 4, Will 8. Ramona's presence is always obvious -- the dull monotone voice alone is a dead giveaway... And then there is Karl. Karl -- Karl is the guardian and the gatekeeper for the other personalities. He usually controls who gets to "come forward" at any time, though he rarely comes forward himself unless he perceives a threat. He is almost always awake and watching over Bobby Jean's shoulder. He can put off sleep simply by making a Will roll every day; once in a while he misses and then sleeps for hours equal to the check digit (at these times, Jolene or Buddy will often have a contest of Wills to see who can come forward until Karl wakes up). Karl is one tough b*stard. He is a monomaniac, with Perception 1 but a steely-hard will of 11. Karl exists only to defend and protect the others, and he is quite willing to kill to do it. Karl is very dangerous to Celestials. Any Shedite or Kyriotate who tries to enter Bobby Jean will meet him, and will probably regret it... If a celestial tries to possess Bobby Jean, roll a contest of Wills. If there is no winner, then the would-be posessor is *violently* bounced away from Bobby Jean, and will be stunned for a number of minutes equal to Karl's check die. The celestial will only know that "something very strange just happened". He may think that someone else is already possessing this woman -- which, in a way, is correct. Karl will be able to identify the possessor, and may take theopportunity to attack him while he is stunned. If the celestial manages to win, Karl will retreat into Bobby Jean's psyche and push one of the other personalities up to be possessed. This may cause some confusion to the possessing celestial! ("This woman has the mind of a four year old? Wha...?") In any event, Karl can make an attack to expel the celestial after a number of hours equal to the possessor's check die have passed (though he may wait a little while until the celestial is distracted). If the possessor _loses_ the contest of Wills, he is in serious trouble. Bobby Jean's mutant mind snaps shut around him like a bear trap, the various personalities sliding into place to pin him down. He is now stuck inside her mind... the possesor possessed, reduced to the status of another personality! It gets worse. The celestial will be completely helpless; he can communicate only with Karl, and Karl will probably not be interested in anything the captive has to say. And every day he stays stuck, he will take Mind hits equal to Karl's check digit, as Bobbie Jean's mind struggles to *digest* him. The process is excruciatingly unpleasant, and if he doesn't escape before all his hits are gone, he dies permanently... though some of his memories might survive to form a new personality in Bobbie Jean's cerebral menagerie. Karl can use Bianca to try to get information about the captured celestial's identity and abilities. He can also try to force the captive to use Songs and skills! Roll a contest of Wills; Karl must win. If he does, he has access to _one_ of the captive's Songs, skills, resonances or attunements for minutes equal to his check die (when actually using the Song or whatever, remember to roll against the _captive's_ attributes... he's being psychically arm-twisted into cooperating with Karl). If Karl wants to use a second Song or whatever, he must make another roll. Note that Karl doesn't give a damn about causing his captive Dissonance (say, by using a Mercurian's Song of Thunder to kill a human). Whether actions taken by a celestial under psychic duress should cause Dissonance, or not, is left to the GM's discretion. The only ways to get a captive loose are: - -- Convince Karl to let him go. This one isn't too likely. Trying to possess Bobby Jean was a threat, and Karl doesn't react well to threats. - -- Convince at least three of the personalities to make Karl let go. - -- Stun or incapacite Karl for at least an hour. This means _Karl_. Knocking Bobby Jean unconscious is no good unless Karl is in charge when she goes under. - -- Kill Bobby Jean. The GM should point out that this might result in the death of the trapped celestial as well. Actually, it won't, but it will cause a point of Dissonance _and_ Trauma. And there are some very good reasons not to want to kill Bobby Jean... Oh, yes -- Karl also will surge to the fore to bounce Habbalite attacks. And even if he fails to do so, he'll just shunt the emotion to another one of the personalities. Buddy or Jolene may be consumed by terror or despair, but Karl will just keep coming. Karl is the only personality with weapons skills -- Fighting-3, Small Weapon-2, and Ranged Weapon-2. He also has a .45, hidden where Jean can't find it. He'll use the gun if he thinks he can get away with it. When Karl comes forward, Bobby Jean's manner changes drastically. Her voice deepens and roughens and a faint German accent appears. Overall she comes across as a very grim, menacing older man in a young woman's body. Note that Karl's control is not total. Two or three other personalities, working together, can shove him aside. This rarely happens, though; the personalities are too different to cooperate easily, and also they trust Karl (though some, like Buddy, may dislike him). Daddy -- Daddy is the one personality who is _never_ allowed to come forward. All the others are terrified of him. Nobody is sure what will happen if Daddy is ever allowed out... and nobody, not even Buddy, wants to risk it. It's possible that Daddy may be the indigestible remains of the Shedite who helped create Bobby Jean, compressed into the internalized image of her father. If so, he could be very dangerous indeed; remember Legion... Other notes on Bobby Jean: if Celestials use Songs or Resonances, keep in mind that they only affect the personality who is on deck at that moment. So a Mercurian might make a good roll and find out all about Jean's relationships, but this will be of little use in dealing with Karl. Ditto for the resonances of Elohim, Malakim, Impudites, etc. A Seraph might be nonplussed to find Bobby Jean making wildly contradictory statements that all register as "true" (i.e., Jean says "I really like Tori Amos," then five minutes later Buddy says "Tori Amos is utter garbage.") A Balseraph can only make one personality believe his lies at a time (though perhaps, with repeated uses of resonance, he might eventually convince most of them). This may lead to some interesting situations... say, a Balseraph convincing Jean that "I'm your trusted friend," only to have Jolene come forward and say, "Friend? You're an ugly little weasel. Get away from me." This doesn't cause dissonance, but it might seriously unnerve the demon. Bobby Jean always has an active dreamscape! At least one of the personalities is always asleep... Basic adventure seed: a Kyriotate or a Shedim has gone missing. At his last sighting, he was headed for Bobby Jean's show to take in some good country music. He _did_ go, and got a little carried away by the band, and decided to possess the lead singer for a bit... The PCs are sent in to investigate. It shouldn't be too hard to attract the PCs' attention to the red-headed lead singer. Jolene or one of the other personalities can brieffly emerge on a break; give the PCs Perception rolls to notice something odd - -- a change in voice or mannerisms, a statement contradicting something she said just a few minutes ago. Or even a change in drinking habits -- Jean drinks beer, Bianca likes white wine, Jolene is a daiquiri girl, and Buddy likes club soda with lots of lemon. Buddy thinks ethnic jokes are hilarious while Bianca likes quoting Yeats and Wordsworth... the possibilities should be fairly obvious. Once the PCs are focussed on Bobby Jean, things will probably get interesting. If the PCs act suspiciously, Bianca will probably emerge and start making Perception rolls. If the PCs use Songs, either Karl or Mrs. Pentecost will very quickly show up. The GM should try to play out the mystery for a while. The players are not likely to think MPD as a first explanation... a mad Kyrio or Shedim, or someone using some unusual Songs, will probably be their initial guess. There's no reason to disillusion them too soon. Most of Bobbie Jean's personalities will feel very threatened by celestials, and will cooperate to work against them. Mama Pentecost may accuse them publicly, or even try an impressive (though ineffectual) exorcism. Bianca will use her psychic (?) ability to try to pick up information that can be used against them. Karl is perfectly willing to resort to violence if necessary. And, of course, if Karl can catch a would-be possessor, he may get access to the celestial's Songs and attunements, and in any event the personalities will have a powerful bargaining chip. If Bobby Jean, by herself, doesn't seem like enough of a challenge for the celestials, there are several ways you can spice things up. Assume that the first celestial she captured is still alive. He's in bad shape, though. Karl and the others have worked him over pretty good, and Karl now has ready access to all his Songs and attunements. The PCs should find it interesting when this cute little singer suddenly starts talking like Arnold and throwing Songs around... Add another party of celestials, investigating the same disappearance, but working for a rival Superior or for the other side. Add a powerful human Sorceror. He knows that there is something very strange about Bobby Jean and believes that he can use her to his own advantage. He will use Songs and henchmen to harass anyone else who seems to be interested in her. Alternate seed: Have someone notice Bobbie Jean's dreamscape in the Marches. It's larger than a normal one, and much more complicated. That, by itself, is not so odd... Blandine and Beleth know about MPD. But then a minor celestial went in to investigate, and never came out. What kind of dreamer can trap an angel or demon? Bobby Jean's dreamscape is very strange. Her various personalities appear as completely separate people -- Karl as a grim Teutonic warrior, Bianca as a rather Gothic teenager, etc. Details are at the GM's discretion, but it should be _much_ more dangerous than a normal human dream. And Daddy lies buried at the center of it... Wrapping up: once the PCs finally figure out what Bobby Jean is, what should they do about her? Bobby Jean is a potential weapon in the War! This woman can detect celestials (at least sometimes), and then trap them. Can she be recruited? Or studied, to see if her abilities can be duplicated? Angels will have to step carefully here. The *right* thing to do might be to try to *cure* Bobby Jean... powerful though she is, she is not a healthy human being. Demons will probably just want to kill her, at least at first. But if a Superior finds out that they wantonly destroyed such a potentially useful tool, there will be trouble. The GM should give them at least one chance to stop and think about it. Eventually, the celestials may end up trying to talk Bobby Jean into cooperating with them. How this plays out is left up to the GM, but note that they must persuade _several_ of the personalities in order to get effective cooperation. Jean will believe in angels quite readily; she has always felt that "someone was watching over me" (she's right -- Karl has). Basically a good person, she'd be a tougher sell for demons, though she might be seduced by ambition. She'll be upset, though not traumatized, to learn the truth about her life. Mrs. Pentecost believes in angels and demons wholeheartedly. Good luck trying to talk to her, but it might be possible to bring her around to Heaven's side. She'll die rather than deal with demons. Bianca is easily swayed, and will go along with anyone who offers her a more dramatic life. Jolene might find Hell's side attractive; "good" people are sort of boring. Buddy is vain and ambitious, and there's a good chance he will pick the opposite side from the others. If the PCs work with Bobby Jean, they will have to watch out for him... Karl only cares about what is good for Bobby Jean (i.e., all the other personalities). If there not a consensus, he will might push Ramona forward to negotiate. Have fun, Doug M. dougmuir@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #900 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.