From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Aug 10 22:08:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA08727 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 22:08:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id WAA27287 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 22:08:44 -0500 Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 22:08:44 -0500 Message-Id: <199808110308.WAA27287@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #905 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, August 10 1998 Volume 01 : Number 905 In this digest: Re: IN> Fall of the Malakim Nitpicks. [Here there be Spoilers!] RE: IN> The second woman in Eden in In Nomine IN> Angels going to GenCon...too bad I didn't see any! (off topic) IN> The Crusades RE: IN> The second woman in Eden in In Nomine IN> Demon Conception Re: IN> Demon Conception Re: IN> Archangels of the Virtues? Re: IN> Genesis stories :) Re: IN> The Crusades Re: IN> The Crusades IN> IN- The Crusades Re: IN> The Crusades Re: IN> Archangels of the Virtues? Re: IN> (no subject) Re: IN> (no subject) RE: IN> (no subject) IN> FotM Followup IN> Interesting delema Re: IN> (no subject) Re: IN> Lillith IN> SA for the DP of Politics ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 18:20:11 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Fall of the Malakim Nitpicks. [Here there be Spoilers!] Whoops, a couple more... p96. All the Humorless Security Goons are armed with Relic stunguns, at level four, snd there are threee times as many of them as PC's at least. Every one of those stunguns would take most enchanters years to make, (Well, months for Pendrake Carmichael) but Kevin's handing them out like Security badges. That, and the "stunguns" do as much damage as a Carbine rifle or a .44 Revolver. p110. Some mention should have been made that the Suitcase (or something within it) is an Artifact, as it's very difficult to keep a Demon inside a suitcase if it's not. That, and the Demon has at least 3 points of Essence accessible to him, so he can perform thatDissonance Binding attunement. p114: "Agents of the Game should be horrified if they come across David's Malakim, and will be unlikely to cooperate with the angels in any way until their comrade is freed." Remarkable display of solidarity, for Demons. Sympathy for another Demon they've probably never met before. Being demons, and Servitors of Asmodeus on top of that, they should be used to seeing horrific punishments of all shapes and sizes. The Gamer in the suitcase fouled up royally, got himself captured by Angels. Most likely, the Gamers will still want the suitcase, but primarily to make him a guest on Hades' most highly-rated Game Show, "The Price of Failure." ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Trudy, Impudite Captain of Gluttony, the Demon of Popcorn nofori@pop3.utoledo.edu | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 19:28:40 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: RE: IN> The second woman in Eden in In Nomine > Actually, although I was being somewhat facetious, that's not a bad idea. > Why not make her the Angel of the Unwanted, patron celestial of the homeless > and hopeless. She shouldn't have a name, or if she does it should be a word > that means 'nameless' or 'nobody'. As an odd side trivia fact, that's exactly what the name BELIAL means - nobody, or he who has no name. Interestingly, there is a variant on his name, BELIAR, which means "worthless". - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 17:57:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: IN> Angels going to GenCon...too bad I didn't see any! (off topic) > If we could gather enough people maybe there'll be room for some In > Nomine. Let me know if you guys are wanting to put something together. > I'll be leaving tomorrow morning, so if i see you there, i see you. Unfortunately, I didn't see anyone from the listserv... :( Oh, well...I was working the (CENSORED) booth, anyway! I had a blast! Graveyard Greg _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 11:16:44 +0100 From: "Bene-Elohim" Subject: IN> The Crusades I'm new to this list so I apologise if this has been asked before. I've long thought it would be interesting to run some In Nomine during the crusades. I think the combination of earthly war, Archangel "disagreements", and the "purity war" would make for an entertaining game, either as a major campaign or as a one off, perhaps to highlight a piece of background for an ongoing modern game. Is it stated (in canon or elsewhere) how far inter Archangel conflict went during this period?(far enough to drive Gabriel insane certainly). Also what sides did the various Archangels take? I see Gabriel and Khalid opposed to Dominic, Uriel and Laurence, with Yves trying to calm the situation down. Michael apparently tried to defend Gabriel, but its not clear how far that went. I would appreciate any thoughts on this subject. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 14:17:45 +0200 (MET DST) From: Jasper Reijer Floor Subject: RE: IN> The second woman in Eden in In Nomine On Sat, 8 Aug 1998, Ellen Kakkaratchi wrote: > > word. I can't think of a name, but as for words how about Humanity? Or > > maybe Free Will to serve as a parallel for Lilith's Freedom. Which of > > these fits better? Or are there any other words which would fit? > > Actually, although I was being somewhat facetious, that's not a bad idea. > Why not make her the Angel of the Unwanted, patron celestial of the homeless > and hopeless. She shouldn't have a name, or if she does it should be a word > that means 'nameless' or 'nobody'. I actually like this idea, though it goes a little against how I see words working. If she was angel of the unwanted, it would mean she would promote people being unwanted (otherwise, her word and her power are dead). On the other hand maybe that isn't a problem. What if she shelters the unwanted tries to make them part of society again (at which point they fall out of her juristiction), in the process doing herself no good at all. She would represent a word that she would want to destroy. I'm not sure that angels should represent the negative parts of the universe however, because what would they do after they win the war (who cares what they do if they lose). It would also be kind of painfull. Perhaps a more positive concept is necessary, like comforting the unwanted or something like that (I believe that is closer to the intent anyway). The problem with words is that they don't just represent spheres of influence. You can't just be the angel of mouse traps, you really want to trap mice, you want to build a better mouse trap. Perhaps Angel of Comfort, patron of the homeless.... On yet even another hand (I'm a mutant, ok?) negative concept have been represented by angels in canon (the angel of teenage-death, allthough maybe that is a bad example)..... oh well, I'm just confusing myself now. mvg, Jasper "There's never an excuse for rudeness" - Doon Mackichan "Oh bollux" - Graem Garden If I ruled the world (BBC game show) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:35:01 +0100 From: Andrew Subject: IN> Demon Conception - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDC463.BF588DA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, For purposes of a scenario should it be possible for a Demon to rape an Angel causing the Angel to conceive? This is further complicated by the demon raping an amnesiac angel unaware that the person was anything other than human. Any thoughts? 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Getting a celestial vessel to conceive involves using a song (celestial song of fruition, which is in the APG), because it can't happen under ordinary circumstances. That was mainly for having a celestial get pregnant by a mortal (or vice versa) but I'd guess the same might hold for two celestial vessels. So if the demon knows that song, I think it could do that. >This is further complicated by the demon raping an amnesiac angel unaware that >the person was anything other than human. If you assume that the demon had every intention of impregnating its victim, so used the song of fruition, then that could still work. The demon _will_ know that there was a pregnancy involved though. jo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 09:52:50 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Archangels of the Virtues? Jevon Heath wrote: > All of the lists of Virtues differ amazingly, with very little > overlapping. All of the lists of Sins, on the other hand, > concentrate on Anger (Wrath), Lust, and Greed. However, with all of > these powerful words, why are none of them represented for the > angels? I don't know what lists you have been consulting, but actually, there is a "standard" list of the Seven Splendid Virtues: Love Faith Hope Justice Courage Wisdom Temperance The first three are the "theological" virtues -- because they're listed in the Bible, in one of Paul's letters to the Corinthians, I believe. The last four are the "cardinal" virtues -- that is, the basic ones, like the four cardinal directions on a a compass. The equally standardized list of Seven Deadly Sins is: Pride Avarice (Greed) Envy Sloth Wrath Lust Gluttony This list does seem to get much more attention in IN, but then sins have a general way of commanding more media attention than virtues. (Note that there's no Archangel of Media opposite to Nybbas.) Both lists were established in the Middle Ages, which loved lists. Some months back, listmembers spent some time matching various Superiors to the lists. It is significant, though, as you point out, that there are few Archangels assigned to virtues the way there are DPs assigned to vices. This may be the media focus at work, or it may be because AA's Words tend to be broader and more metaphorical. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 09:59:53 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Genesis stories :) Pete Overton wrote: > Actually, I was under the impression that she was lurking about > in the Jewish Holy Texts quite openly. I know speaking from a > Catholic-centered upbringing that I had never heard of her until > I picked up Vampire and I was so fascinated I ran out and looked > her up. Apparently during the Biblical editing council they > elected to write her out of the story. Lilith herself may have appeared in various books that were considered, then rejected, for the Biblical canon. It's the particular story about her being the first wife of Adam that appears to originate with "The Alphabet of Ben Sira" in the Middle Ages, according to the rabbi I gave the Web-pointer to. The Biblical canon was stablized a long time before that. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 11:20:38 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> The Crusades On Mon, 10 Aug 1998, Bene-Elohim wrote: > I'm new to this list so I apologise if this has been asked before. Don't apologize. Getting answers to your questions is what this list is for, despite the claims of some of our "adult" list members. > I've long thought it would be interesting to run some In Nomine during > the crusades. I think the combination of earthly war, Archangel > "disagreements", and the "purity war" would make for an entertaining game, > either as a major campaign or as a one off, perhaps to highlight a piece of > background for an ongoing modern game. Yeah. that could be interesting. Gives the players a sense of history. > Is it stated (in canon or elsewhere) how far inter Archangel conflict > went during this period?(far enough to drive Gabriel insane certainly). It's been discussed on the list before. You could try searching the archives (at www.sjgames.com/in-nomine) for more information. > Also what sides did the various Archangels take? I see Gabriel and > Khalid opposed to Dominic, Uriel and Laurence, Yeah. Sounds right. Except that Uriel was called into the higher Heavens about 300 years before the Crusades (meaning he's not a real player in these events). > with Yves trying to calm the situation down. Yves might not, actually. He could have decided that the Crusades would be a good way to encourage individuals to their Destinies (somehow), or he might have some reason for wanting the debate going in Heaven. You never know with Yves. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page. The Gaming Ghetto, at In Nomine: The Last Days, at Walking the Planes, at - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 11:34:03 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The Crusades gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > > with Yves trying to calm the situation down. > > Yves might not, actually. He could have decided that the Crusades > would be a good way to encourage individuals to their Destinies > (somehow), or he might have some reason for wanting the debate going > in Heaven. You never know with Yves. Indeed. If Yves cares about cultural and national destinies as well as individuals, the Crusades might have interested him a lot on that level. One notable event of the Crusades was the Sack of Byzantium, by one band of Crusaders. This sent scades of refugees into western Europe, some of them scholars who brought their knowledge and some of their books with them. This produced a major revival of classical learning in western Europe -- the renewal of interest in Aristotle, in particular, leading into the Renaissance. The Crusades in general stimulated interest in western Europe in matters of trade and travel, leading into the Age of Discovery. The net result is the general ascendancy of the West over the rest of the world. Now, is that the result Yves *wanted*? Or is it the exact opposite? Is it just a general big fact of history that Yves and Kronos both cope with and exploit? Is it something Yves was under orders from Above to bring about, as part of the general Destiny of humanity? Ditto Kronos and Fate? A Crusades adventure could have a few angels of Destiny mixed in, asking all these questions somewhat before the events they address, keeping other characters intrigued and/or off-balance. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 08:41:49 PDT From: "Doug Muir" Subject: IN> IN- The Crusades >> I've long thought it would be interesting to run some In Nomine during >> the crusades. I think the combination of earthly war, Archangel >> "disagreements", and the "purity war" would make for an entertaining game, >> either as a major campaign or as a one off, perhaps to highlight a piece of >> background for an ongoing modern game. Nice idea. You could do a "flashback" scenario for a session or two... let people run their "modern" characters, with appropriate modifications... perhaps fewer Forces, since they're less experienced. Then have the events of the Crusade episode come back to haunt them 900 years later. The blurriness of the historical background would give you more leeway for large-scale mayhem and cinematic effects... >> Is it stated (in canon or elsewhere) how far inter Archangel conflict >> went during this period?(far enough to drive Gabriel insane certainly). > >It's been discussed on the list before. You could try searching the >archives (at www.sjgames.com/in-nomine) for more information. Good luck. There's lots of interesting stuff in the archives, but it ain't easy to find. Doug M. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 11:54:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> The Crusades > > Is it stated (in canon or elsewhere) how far inter Archangel conflict > > went during this period?(far enough to drive Gabriel insane certainly). > > It's been discussed on the list before. You could try searching the > archives (at www.sjgames.com/in-nomine) for more information. A quick search of largely my memory and poking around the INC turns up little in the way of historical IN pieces, other then straight Uriel bits, creation theories, and the like. I'm not saying that there isn't stuff in the queue right now to be posted, but there aren't any pieces on "a detailed political climate of the celestial realms in 1099 AD" currently on tap. - - Em, who is currently on the hunt for swishgate for the INC. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 09:21:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Jevon Heath Subject: Re: IN> Archangels of the Virtues? >there is a "standard" list of the Seven Splendid Virtues: > >Love >Faith >Hope >Justice >Courage >Wisdom >Temperance > >The first three are the "theological" virtues -- because they're >listed in the Bible, in one of Paul's letters to the Corinthians, >I believe. The last four are the "cardinal" virtues -- that is, >the basic ones, like the four cardinal directions on a a compass. Right. This is the standard Roman Catholic list. The Bible also lists these, in various sections: Humility Prudence (wisdom) Temperance Fortitude (courage) Justice Awe Mercy However, the ten Virtues of the Virgin are: Chastity Prudence Humility Faith Piety Obedience Poverty Patience Charity Compassion Not to mention those from Jainism, Taoism, etc. >The equally standardized list of Seven Deadly Sins is: > >Pride >Avarice (Greed) >Envy >Sloth >Wrath >Lust >Gluttony Right. It seems that most religions agree on these. Sikhism has Ego and Attachment as well, and Hindu has Spiritual Ignorance, but yeah, those seven are pretty much standard. > >Both lists were established in the Middle Ages, which loved lists. > >Some months back, listmembers spent some time matching various >Superiors to the lists. It is significant, though, as you point >out, that there are few Archangels assigned to virtues the way >there are DPs assigned to vices. This may be the media focus at >work, or it may be because AA's Words tend to be broader and >more metaphorical. > Since their words are so broad, it follows that the AA's might lose some focus? All or most of the various Virtues are worthy of Archangel- level power serving them. Thank you for reading this far. Jevon Heath ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 17:37:05 +0100 () From: "David.Evans" Subject: Re: IN> (no subject) Someone sic scribit: > > not alot happening here in uk connected with in inomine any news on uk > groups? > <*roll of eyes... i _. ! ._ *> WHAT UK groups??? Seriously though, I'm in the (incredibly slow) process of writing up Glasgow as an In Nomine setting. If and when I ever finish it, there'll be it's first playtesting at SURGE, Strathclyde University's Role-playing and Gaming sociEty. Anywhere else playing IN atm? Be seeing you... David. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 18:16:59 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> (no subject) At 17:37 10/08/98 +0100, you wrote: >Someone sic scribit: > > >Seriously though, I'm in the (incredibly slow) process of writing up >Glasgow as an In Nomine setting. <...> > Anywhere else playing IN atm? > Well, I'm running a game that's set in London (because if I set it in Reading, I think everyone would die of boredom :)). I've half got a Victorian setting ready for a flashback or two which will be London 1862. I'd be interested to see the Glasgow stuff though, when you finish it! jo - --- O Lord, grant that we may always be right, for Thou knowest we will never change our minds. -- Old Scottish Prayer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 19:56:31 +0100 From: "Ellen Kakkaratchi" Subject: RE: IN> (no subject) > Someone sic scribit: > > > > not alot happening here in uk connected with in inomine any news on uk > > groups? > > > > <*roll of eyes... i _. ! ._ *> > > WHAT UK groups??? > > Seriously though, I'm in the (incredibly slow) process of writing up > Glasgow as an In Nomine setting. If and when I ever finish it, there'll > be it's first playtesting at SURGE, Strathclyde University's Role-playing > and Gaming sociEty. Anywhere else playing IN atm? Yes. I run a game down in Colchester, but I don't see what use that information is going to be! The setting isn't UK though, it's Berlin. Altogether more excting than any UK setting for me. I am contemplating the live-action game I was speaking about on the list before, but it won't take place until xmas at the earliest. Ellen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 14:19:51 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: IN> FotM Followup Some additions to, and modifications of, my posting from Saturday. In Nomine LA - I shouldn't have said that information in the brief descriptions of the city were wrong. I believe that some of them ARE misleading, but wrong? No. I was frustrated with the product and let that get out of hand as I was writing. My apologies to all concerned and in particular the writer of this section.. Title Adventure - I counted wrong. Only 18 of the 24 pages are devoted to events that take place before the characters get involved; I missed the four devoted to how Superiors would want their Servitors to act. Still, at 75%, I stand by my view of what this means to the adventure. Further, the more I think about it, the less I feel that this could be turned into a good adventure. A good story, yes. With revisions addressing the plot problems that have been mentioned, it could make me reconsider my determination to never be caught reading a book with a game logo on it. The introductory story in Fall of the Malakim was perhaps my favorite part. But beyond the various gripes about its content, FotM has a critical problem for being a good RPG adventure: it's far too linear. The whole plot is scripted from beginning to end. This is where the eighteen pages of plot outline before the characters get involved comes into play. The PCs only purpose is to come in after all of the interesting events have occured, find either or both of the false Maximilians and perhaps take care of a few tasks their Superiors give them on the side. Then, no matter what has happened in the adventure, they are to be Outcast/Renegaded and shuffled off to Khalid. They have no chance to affect the course of events. Maximilian and Mira are in Hell regardless. There may or may not be a restored tether of Eli, but the characters probably didn't have much to do with it (Natalie can take care of this). Armageddon is starting in any case. They don't have a way to avoid being Outcast/Renegaded. They have no chance to find out what is going on. They'll never find out about Mira's mission. They don't have any way to find out about Kobal's and Malphas' involvement. They don't have any way to determine the truth about whether Maximilian Fell or where he is. They don't even have any way to know that they didn't kill him if the destroy either of the imposters. In short, they are completely railroaded. Players are going to be justifiably upset at being used as nothing but automatons in a pre-written script. Others have complained that this adventure has no finish, but has a "To Be Continued." I don't have any problem with that, per se, but I am put out that, after all the build up we had, it is nothing but a quick, completely scripted prologue to the adventure in Final Trumpet. It don't even see how it's going to be important as an adventure. The events described surely will be, but not, I fear, the PC's participation. Any old way to get them cut off from Heaven or Hell and associated with Khalid would seem to do the trick. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 00:28:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: IN> Interesting delema I was running a In Nomine Scenario (Deliverence), in which the players have to deal with a seritor of dark humor. Well at one point on of the angelicplayers rolled 3 INFERNAL INTERVENTIONS in a row. as this was a one night game I off handedly had Kobal thake a "Liking" to him and give him the prank attunement. My question is a) what would the angels Superior, or Dominic for that matter, think of this, and b) what would happen if he tried to use it. Shadowcat All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 00:30:32 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> (no subject) Could you please post the Glassgow information to me when you get it finnished? I will post you Millwaukee when I get that done if you like. Shadowcat All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 00:51:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Lillith On Fri, 7 Aug 1998, Jo Hart wrote: > At 18:37 06/08/98 -0400, you wrote: > > And you should look at the stories about Adam's > >second wife, the one before Eve if you want some moral ambiguity. > > > Neil Gaiman made that story up. Where can I find this story? Shadowcat All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 22:47:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: IN> SA for the DP of Politics Thanks, Jo, for the suggestions! I took one of 'em and beefed it up a bit, then my roomate and I came up with another one. Upon retrospect, it's a bit like Laurence's Purity of Purpose, but different enough for me... Feedback is appreciated! MAN OF THE PEOPLE A demon with this attunement knows exactly how to fit into any demographic, smoothly blending into whatever group of people he's with. He automatically makes all Savior-Faire rolls, in any situation, with a check digit equal to his Ethereal Forces. YOUR ATTENTION, PLEASE This attunement allows the demon to make himself clearly heard in a way that compels others to listen. When invoked, the demon can direct his words to one person, a small group (all together), or everyone within earshot. His words will be clearly heard over any background noise, and the affected people will stop what they are doing (unless engaged in combat or a similar situation where stopping could be dangerous) and listen carefully to everything said. Celestials and Soldiers may resist with a Will roll. This makes oration easy, but does nothing to improve the quality of a bad speech. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! ::: Official Martyr of X-Day! ::: Thinking about a Tampa Bay Devival in the future - email me! ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #905 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.