From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Aug 11 19:34:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA08653 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 19:34:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id TAA17170 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 19:43:12 -0500 Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 19:43:12 -0500 Message-Id: <199808120043.TAA17170@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #907 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, August 11 1998 Volume 01 : Number 907 In this digest: IN> Asmodee French source book recommendation Re: IN> Fall of the Malakim: Problems and Patches RE: IN> (no subject) Re: IN> Demon Conception Re: IN> Archangels of the Virtues? Re: IN> Archangels of the Virtues? Re: IN> Archangels of the Virtues? Re: IN> Archangels of the Virtues? Re: IN> Archangels of the Virtues? Re: IN> Amsterdam Re: IN> Archangels of the Virtues? Re: IN> Looking for Love...Archangel, that is... IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #906 IN> N> (no subject) IN> Demon Conception Re: IN> Archangels of the Virtues? Re: IN> Shedim Problem (Re: Why not spread the Word) Re: IN> Why not take Dissonance to escape Geas? Re: IN> What *are* the rules? Re: IN> Demon Conception Re: IN> Interesting delema Re: IN> _Fall of the Malakim_ Re: IN> Fall of the Malakim Nitpicks. [Here there be Spoilers!] IN> Granting Words (Re: Lost Words?) IN> Lilith and her Word (Re: Lost Words?) Re: IN> Fall of the Malakim: Problems and Patches Re: IN> Fall of the Malakim: Problems and Patches Re: IN> (no subject) Re: IN> Demon Conception IN> Kerzog, Demon Prince of Weaponry Re: IN> Kerzog, Demon Prince of Weaponry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 10:34:15 -0700 From: Dale Friesen Subject: IN> Asmodee French source book recommendation The book store I work for has just gotten a Canadian distributor for Asmodee Editions and I thought I'd pick up one or two INS books for myself. Is there a web page (or FAQ) that summarizes the content of each book? Does anyone have any recommendations for the best content? I'm looking for interesting reading more than definitely useful gaming material. Cheers. Any opinions expressed are mine and not necessarily the book store's. Dale Friesen Sysadmin Bolen Books, Inc Victoria, BC Canada dfriesen@amtsgi.bc.ca http://www.bolen.bc.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 12:41:39 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Fall of the Malakim: Problems and Patches On Fri, 7 Aug 1998, Pee Kitty wrote: > > tells Jean everything. The Kyrio can use the Seraph attunement to create > > a reproduction showing what happened *exactly*, but since it's a > > reproduction rather than a recording, it can't be resonated on. > Sorry, but the APG made it clear; the reproduction can be resonated on at > a small penalty. Where does it do that? The only example I could find (p.25) was that of a Seraph's resonance detecting counterfeit money. Analogously, it would let a Seraph tell whether or not the holograph the Kyrio was producing (with a Seraph of Lightning attunement) was accurate to the best of the Kyrio's understanding. This wouldn't tell the Seraph whether or not the people in the video display believed what they were saying or if what they were saying was The Truth. Now, the core rules do say that angels can resonate on "reproductions" (p.57) but all the examples given are recordings, and it goes on to talk exclusively about recordings and live transmissions. The concrete examples given are: phone conversation, tape recording, photo, video, and satellite broadcast. You could argue that the memories of someone with the Seraph of Lightning attunement *were* a recording; I'd buy it either way. If that's the problem, just have a helpless Kyrio *without* that attunement witness everything; I'm sure between Jean and Dominic they can come up with some way to reproduce the poor Kyrio's memory. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 19:00:43 +0100 (BST) From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: RE: IN> (no subject) I have a very occasional IN game (face to face) that runs every month or two, set in Southampton (in the south of England). There are only four or so Tethers - or so it seems - but this hasn't stopped a fair amount of action taking place. Logs are at http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~maya/nomine/feather.html I don't have any plans currently to write it up formally - especially as several of my PCs have web access - but que sera, sera. Maya (who also runs Fiat Justitia online, yes) - --- Maya, Elohite of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 14:14:27 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Demon Conception I'd like to apologize for quoting all that mime-incoded text. I was in a bit of a hurry, and didn't realize I hadn't deleted it until I'd already sent it. Won't happen again. Honest. - --Nana Yaw Ofori. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 11:49:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Jevon Heath Subject: Re: IN> Archangels of the Virtues? Replying to various posts: [David Paul compared bands to sins] >[balseraphs - pride > djinn - avarice > calabim - wrath > habbalah - envy > lilim - sloth > shedim - lust > impudites - gluttony] J. Michael Neal wrote: >I would probably reverse djinn and lilim. To me, djinn personify sloth >(or they at least pretend to), while lilim use others desires (sometimes >needs, but often desires) to profit off of them. I agree. I would also reverse shedim and impudites. Impudites seem to lust after essence, and shedim are "gluttons for punishment", at least for their hosts. Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Doing something similar with choirs and virtues: > >seraphim - wisdom, since they seek truth above all >cherubim - faith, since they must be faithful to their charges >ophanim - hope, since they are the most exuberant choir >elohim - temperance, since balance is their middle name >malakim - courage, since they must never surrender >kyriotates - justice, since they mustn't wrong their hosts >mercurians - love, since love of humanity is their main trait > It seems that the opposites of the sins should be the opposites of the bands. If we take the opposites, we get: seraphim - humility [pride] cherubim - diligence [sloth] ofanim - compassion [wrath] elohim - understanding [envy] malakim - charity [greed] kyriotates - temperance [gluttony] mercurians - love [lust] Does this make sense? Charitable malakim don't seem to, but they aren't exactly opposites of lilim. Jevon Heath ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 12:04:54 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Archangels of the Virtues? On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Jevon Heath wrote: [some very interesting stuff snipped] > It seems that the opposites of the sins should be the opposites of > the bands. If we take the opposites, we get: > > seraphim - humility [pride] > cherubim - diligence [sloth] > ofanim - compassion [wrath] > elohim - understanding [envy] > malakim - charity [greed] > kyriotates - temperance [gluttony] > mercurians - love [lust] > > Does this make sense? Charitable malakim don't seem to, but they > aren't exactly opposites of lilim. on the contrary, i think it makes perfect sense given the Malakite resonance: detect honor and worthy actions, thus judging people not by *one's own* standard but by the person being viewed. _quite_ charitable, i think. ideally, i'd love to be tried with a jury of three Malakim, three Seraphim, three Elohim, and three Mercurians. far be it from me, of course, to be such a flagrant burden on the Host ;) -=|horsefly|=- "Back off, preacher, I don't care if it's Sunday. I ain't no angel, but I never felt better!" --FREEDOM, Alice Cooper ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:15:09 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Archangels of the Virtues? Jevon Heath wrote: > It seems that the opposites of the sins should be the opposites of > the bands. If we take the opposites, we get: > > seraphim - humility [pride] > cherubim - diligence [sloth] > ofanim - compassion [wrath] > elohim - understanding [envy] > malakim - charity [greed] > kyriotates - temperance [gluttony] > mercurians - love [lust] > > Does this make sense? I can't say that seraphim strike me as humble, or kyrios as temperate. (Temperance REALLY seems like it's tailor-made for elohim.) The problem is that the Seven Deadly Sins are not the exact opposites of the Seven Splendid Virtues. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 12:29:29 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Archangels of the Virtues? On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Jevon Heath wrote: > > It seems that the opposites of the sins should be the opposites of > > the bands. If we take the opposites, we get: > > > > seraphim - humility [pride] > > cherubim - diligence [sloth] > > ofanim - compassion [wrath] > > elohim - understanding [envy] > > malakim - charity [greed] > > kyriotates - temperance [gluttony] > > mercurians - love [lust] > > > > Does this make sense? > I can't say that seraphim strike me as humble, or kyrios as > temperate. (Temperance REALLY seems like it's tailor-made for > elohim.) [snip] hmm, you have a point. what about Temperance for Elohim as you suggest and Understanding fitted to the Kyriotates (multiple perspectives and all that)? -=|horsefly|=- "Back off, preacher, I don't care if it's Sunday. I ain't no angel, but I never felt better!" --FREEDOM, Alice Cooper ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 12:46:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Jevon Heath Subject: Re: IN> Archangels of the Virtues? - -=|horsefly|=- wrote: >On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >> Jevon Heath wrote: >> > It seems that the opposites of the sins should be the opposites of >> > the bands. If we take the opposites, we get: >> > >> > seraphim - humility [pride] >> > cherubim - diligence [sloth] >> > ofanim - compassion [wrath] >> > elohim - understanding [envy] >> > malakim - charity [greed] >> > kyriotates - temperance [gluttony] >> > mercurians - love [lust] >> > >> > Does this make sense? >> I can't say that seraphim strike me as humble, or kyrios as >> temperate. (Temperance REALLY seems like it's tailor-made for >> elohim.) > [snip] hmm, you have a point. what about Temperance for Elohim as >you suggest and Understanding fitted to the Kyriotates (multiple >perspectives and all that)? > The question is then, should choirs correspond to bands, or not? Habbalah don't seem gluttonous to me, but Shedim could be envious.... Jevon Heath ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 21:47:22 +0200 From: "Donato Ranzato" Subject: Re: IN> Amsterdam >> On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Jasper Floor wrote: >> >Ok, I'l agree that Eli is probably big in Amsterdam. > >btw, I live in Amstelveen (a suburb of amsterdam for the uninformed). > Well, it seems that this mailing list is also a great way to meet In Nomine fans who live closeby because my girlfriend lives also in Amstelveen. So, maybe it is better to continue this conversation in private mail so we can "talk" in Dutch. Maybe we can share some ideas about In Nomine Amsterdam... Donato Ranzato email: mailto:d.ranzato@speed.a2000.nl In Nomine site: http://people.a2000.nl/dranzato ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:55:02 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Archangels of the Virtues? Jevon Heath wrote: > The question is then, should choirs correspond to bands, or not? > Habbalah don't seem gluttonous to me, but Shedim could be envious.... I think the IN book makes it clear that the bands are warped versions of the choirs (insert obligatory infernal double-think for their version here). But there was no effort to line up either bands or choirs with any particular virtues or vices. I have sometimes tried to combine the Seven Deadlies and the Seven Splendids into one system. I always wind up having to introduce additional, non-"standard" virtues and vices to keep symmetry. Here is an instance (new ones without caps): Charity -- Avarice Faith -- treachery Hope -- despair Justice -- fraud Courage -- cowardice Wisdom -- folly Temperance -- Gluttony peace -- Wrath chastity -- Lust mercy -- Envy zeal -- Sloth humility -- Pride That gives a system of twelve pairs, with the two sevens embedded, which is esthetic enough, I guess. But only two of the seven in each set have direct opposites in the other. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:33:12 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Looking for Love...Archangel, that is... At 7:52 PM -0500 8/4/98, Eeyore wrote: >I should start out by saying that I have no problem with canon not having these >Words taken by some angel or another. I'm sure that all of the reasons our >esteemed moderator lists are held by a not insignificant number of Heaven's >hierarchy. I am, more than anything playing the (hopefully loyal) opposition. (These are probably all offered as retorts by those Archangels who *do* want some Words re-assigned. Question is, of course, whether that lot are in the minority...) >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> At 4:33 PM -0500 8/4/98, Eeyore wrote: >> #1: It's like leaving the light on for the runaway coming home. >> (Hey, look, your old room is still there.) > >I miss 'em, too. But at some point, you have to move on. Nostalgia gives us >some fine doo-wop music, but it also brought back platform shoes and >bell-bottoms. Question is, when is that "some point"? Remember, a lot of the Archangels (and Princes) were around when the universe was forming, were around to watch the dinosaurs rise and fall, let alone interesting humanity. For more zeros of years than I can comprehend, Heaven's Host was one big family. How long have they been gone? Just a few millenia. Angels aren't going to give up so quickly on their friends, lovers, siblings... >> #2: The Word's former owner FELL. The second angel of Fortitude is >> a Malakite... > > It's a War; risks must be taken. Bunker Hill fell, too, but that isn't a good >reason not to have defended it. But is the Word itself, perhaps at fault? Is there some taint there, that will doom another to Falling, that will add another powerful celestial to Hell's Forces? (And to answer who the first Fortitude was... Try Magog.) > #3: Princes tend to get snitty at angels who hold their Words, and > go out of their way to use them for playthings. >> #5: Sometimes the Right Angel For The Job just hasn't shown up yet. > >Beware of allowing the perfect to become the enemy of the good. I believe that >certain of the present Archangels weren't the RAFTJ, but they're getting better >with practice. Another thing to note is that the Council sets a task to those who would have a Word, to see who is best. Combine #3 and #5 and there can be some problems. Can you protect every candidate? *Should* you? Or will that taint the results of the trial? You can't be there forever. You can't coddle someone who wants that Word, because someday it's going to be just him and the Prince who held it before -- the Prince who held it for aeons, who knows all the tricks, all the strengths, all the weaknesses... ("Come now," smiles Andrealphus, "you know as well as I that Love can be expressed physically, and there is nothing wrong in that. You know there is pleasure there. Let me show you the truth of that pleasure. You are secure in your Word, are you not? Do you not wish to show me what I have lacked for so long now?") I'm sure that there are some Creationers and Flowers-Servitors around who are/were being groomed to take that Word someday, but this may be taking a long, long time. Pushing someone into such a Word before they're ready is pushing an angel into death or worse, Falling. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com "It's been tried, to show him Love. The lucky ones come back with Forces missing." "And the unlucky ones?" "Fall." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 17:16:05 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #906 Message text written by INTERNET:in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >[balseraphs - pride djinn - avarice calabim - wrath lilim - sloth shedim - lust impudites - gluttony] < More likely Lilim to Avarice. Sloth doesn't fit the main bands, Not sine Haggendi Ate him. Adam ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 17:15:59 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> N> (no subject) From: Jo Hart > Well, I'm running a game that's set in London (because if I set it in Reading, I think everyone would die of boredom :)). I've half got a Victorian setting ready for a flashback or two which will be London 1862. I'd be interested to see the Glasgow stuff though, when you finish it! < Finding Players in Reading Seems to be a problem too. Adam ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 17:15:57 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Demon Conception From: Andrew >For purposes of a scenario should it be possible for a Demon to rape an Angel causing the Angel to conceive? This is further complicated by the demon raping an amnesiac angel unaware that the person was anything other than human. Any thoughts? Andrew < Song of Fructification or one of Lucifers little get you started handouts. >- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDC463.BF588DA0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IiAMAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWN y< Please Stop MIMEing. IT clogs up bandwith without adding informational content. Adam "The Population were all behind Lord Vetinari's policy of hanging mimes in a scorpion pit in front of a sign saying 'Learn The Words!'" Terry Pratchitt on several occasions. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 17:16:02 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: Re: IN> Archangels of the Virtues? From: Earl Wajenberg >Love Faith Hope Justice Courage Wisdom Temperance < Malakim are described in the basic rules as Virtues... Adam ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 14:06:26 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Shedim Problem (Re: Why not spread the Word) At 9:39 PM -0400 8/4/98, Pee Kitty wrote: >On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> Worse -- get the Shedite into a Soldier of God who manages to come under >> suspicion by the local triad, and the Cherub attunes . . . to the Shedite! >> Now, a Cherub of Judgment doesn't have to worry about damage to his >> attuned if that attuned is being investigated... >> >> Stick him with a Djinn, or a Song of Attraction, for a lesser threat. > >WAIT! These two examples strike a note... > >The book says that Djinn hate Shedim because they CAN'T keep track of them >like this! Now you say they can. Which is right? I think this was a FAQ somewhere... The notion is that Shedim cannot be tracked *reliably*. 4 times out of 5 (or whatever stats you want to stick in), the Djinn gets the host, not the Shedite. That 5th (or whatever) time, the Shedite is attuned to. That may be fuzzy canon at best, but if you have a Shedite problem and it will make the Shedite annoyed... (If the Shedite has any artifacts, hmmm... the Djinn could attune to *that*.) At 7:09 PM -0700 8/4/98, Doug Muir wrote: >Oh, and another trick you can use: get them to buy something from a >Lilim, and pay with a geas. No amount of body-hopping can outrun a geas. For that matter, let a Lilim need-read and fulfill that Need, and there's a Geas-hook -- which is also impossible to outrun, and if the Shedite wasn't being cautious, it might have accepted some prop that it needed to corrupt its host. (Or might have had the host molest a Lilim in a little-child vessel . . . (Why, yes, my Lilim of Lust *does* have a child vessel!)) And maybe without even knowing it was a Lilim! (But she has to have the Celestial Song of Affinity.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:23:00 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Why not take Dissonance to escape Geas? At 6:41 AM -0400 8/7/98, Pete Overton wrote: >>Yes, I *know* that dissonance is painful and celestials are reluctant to >>take it. But there are times when angels are expected to take dissonance, >>then this is one of them. > > My favourite way to put this is sort of morbid and a lot of people >really can't identify with it, but I unfortunately can and the pity >should end there. In real life, I see only one major thing that >us as humans have that could cause true Dissonance by the game term >(and please note as usual I don't stick to mechanics much). That is >the human instinct for survival. My take on it would probably be closer to Edelstein's (I know too many Davids, not even counting the Archangel) post a while back. Imagine the most disgusting thing (say, sexually -- that usually gets people nicely sensitive) you can, the thing that you would never, ever want to do. Now, imagine that a "dissonant" behavior gets the same reaction. Someone can *think* of doing it, and if pushed hard enough, might. Would you engage in [squicky activity here] if the option were somehow worse? Would you creep through rotting bodies to get to your goal? (And I also divide "lesser dissonance" and "greater dissonance." Lesser dissonance is that which can be removed fairly easily -- Malphas and Nybbas both allow skipping a day of Word-promotion, but the note is easily removed if you make up for it the next day.) A Geas becomes part of your nature. It becomes warm and comforting to go along with it, to put your brain on auto-pilot and let the Geas almost take over. It is hard and painful (okay, think of dissonance as a painful thing -- vicious cramps, for those of us who have dysmenoreah... a knife in the gut for you guys). Even *thinking* about it is thinking about the promise of pain. Lilim are conditioned by their *natures* to follow a Geas, too, I'd think. (Especially the Free, but also the bound.) By psychology and metaphysics, a Geas is unthinkable to break. Most Geases broken by Lilim are probably ones that have placed them in a position where it's dissonant if they do and dissonant if they don't. [Ellen slams Amanda up against the wall and snarls, "You idiot! YOU PUT ME IN GEAS-CONFLICT WITH AN ARCHANGEL!" (Not the smartest thing to say, but hey, she had a nasty Geas-conflict going...)] (And then there are all the other amusing things dissonance can do to demon or angel . . . It jangles you, makes you start filling in the gaps in the Symphony with your own notions of what should be there. Even one note of dissonance, carried long enough, can make a celestial a little (or a lot!) crazy.) >That is true Dissonance, not game penalties, but the guilt and >horror of going against one's nature. Yahyahyah. (Also note that in the FotM situation, there was only *one* path that would have brought her dissonance -- resisting the Geas. The rest was *bad*, it was *wrong*, it was *rude* even. But it wasn't dissonant.) At 7:31 PM -0400 8/7/98, Pete Overton wrote: > So with that in mind, a Mercurian who is left with a Soldier of >Hell about to kill his friends could conceivably react first and >realize later, especially if they are really good friends. It's what >is commonly referred to as the "Oh, Shit!" reflex, where good sense >and rationality take a backseat to the passion of the moment. > > "Oh, shit!" says our Mercurian friend, and he pulls out a .45 >and blows away the evil Soldier of Hell, who was about to slit >the throat of an angel. Shortly thereafter the Mercurian realizes >what he has done and collapses to his knees, weeping like a child >most likely. True, he has done what could be considered the right >thing, but it still goes against his fundamental nature. In later >nights, he is tortured by his actions and sometimes sees the world >in a blood-dimmed haze. And, if you want to go the other way, you get the Mercurian, gun aimed at the Soldier, hand shaking as he realizes that this is not a demon, but a HUMAN... And he can't pull the trigger, not even to save his friends from Trauma. Maybe not even to save the Soldier of God that the Hellsworn is approaching. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 17:20:01 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> What *are* the rules? Ah, joy, to come back from 4 days at WorldCon to a flamewar where people are wondering what I've done or not done. Well, I'll tell you what I did -- I *did not read my email* for about 5-6 days, spent a lot of money, and stayed up till 4am because of Maya's evil Judgment-triad plot one evening. Now, for those who are clue-deprived, let me emphasize this a little more. I DID NOT READ MY EMAIL FOR SEVERAL DAYS. So anyone saying what I have and have not blessed should not be counting their demons before they fledge. (And especially not being snitty about it.) [BTW, any more snide side-comments regarding this little flamewar are going to get treated harshly. My sense of humor about it is right down there in the Lower Hells.] At 1:53 AM -0400 8/7/98, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: >But, on a different subject, what *are* the list >rules? I'm curious now. Other than "don't upset Beth", what is and is >not allowed? I believe the way to find the list info is sending... Majordomo@lists.io.com the command info [] where [] is replaced by in_nomine-l Add end if your mailer sticks in a .sig. Now, flaming is a no-no. (So, for that matter, are MIME files.) One flaming message is worth a poke, and a consistant set of them are grounds to get me annoyed enough to un-subscr!be someone. Off-topic is a no-no. Off-topic flames are seriously no-nos and will definitely upset me. Fiction is technically a no-no as well, and I've been trying to talk people into putting it on a web-page and sending the URL instead of to the list. (Especially *long* fiction.) There are some other things, too. Such as quoting everything for just a "me too". (In fact, I'm thinking of taking everyone who gets me fed up for "me tooing" and subscr!be them to the digest so they can see how much bandwidth they're wasting. If they then quote the whole digest to do short replies, they get unsubscr!bed.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 17:40:04 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Demon Conception At 1:35 PM +0100 8/10/98, Andrew wrote: >For purposes of a scenario should it be possible for a Demon >to rape an Angel causing the Angel to conceive? In canon, no. (Of course, there's always the Song of Fruition and the Humanity attunement, but let's just *NOT* go there.) In fuzzy-canon, using the Song of Fruition, maybe. If you want to let this happen in your own campaign, you get to settle the can of worms yourself. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 17:51:20 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Interesting delema At 12:28 AM -0500 8/11/98, Shadowcat wrote: >[...] I off handedly had Kobal thake a "Liking" to him and give >him the prank attunement. > My question is a) what would the angels Superior, or Dominic for >that matter, think of this, and b) what would happen if he tried to use >it. Archangels, Dominic in particular, would probably want that attunement *gone*. As for B? You have probably 2 options -- #1: like using a demonic Rite, it causes dissonance. #2: it works just fine. But grin darkly every time it happens. (Or use Em's notion, which is very nice and evil.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 17:04:28 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> _Fall of the Malakim_ At 12:08 PM -0400 8/6/98, Twila Oxley Price wrote: >A few too many typos for my peace of mind, as well. It took long >enough, and they are the kind that spellcheckers could easily get -- >so why didn't they? Blest and bedamned if I know! Send me a list, could you? (Of course, I've read that thing some umpty times and probably wouldn't have noted a typo if it had come up and gnawed on my toes . . . Oh, so that's why my feet look chewed on.) SPOILERS!! Okay, yes, all the Seraphim seeing the video know that Max hasn't Fallen. Yet. But it's not clear when his Heart broke (to the angels, at least), so here's a Malakite ranting about Falling and then his Heart breaks. Urm. What if he believed he'd Fallen (which is true) and then "*Jumped*" off camera? (For that matter, what if he *has* Jumped, off camera? Just because there's a couple of fakes running around... Does it *say* he didn't Fall?) (I will cheerfully lump the Truth stuff into the notion that even Superior Archangels can't get the whole Truth if it intimately involves other Superiors -- and here's a pair of them intimately involved. Dominic gets, "He believed what he said, he went nuts, and I don't know what happened to him afterwards.") (And it is noted that David thinks Max has only gone very dissonant/Discordant -- he obviously thinks that Max is just loopy. Though that shattered Heart is kind of... troublesome.) The Geas is probably "Destroy this Heart as soon as you can." (It will take her time to sneak into the catacombs without getting stopped.) It's only a Geas/5 (she's not necessarily aware *whose* Heart it is, and Max isn't necessarily a "friend." Remember, Dream is 'coldly neutral' to Stone, normally, and Max is loony.). [Mind, you can do what else you want with those, but I *did* try to make sure that it fit in with the Geases rules when I gave Mira her stats...] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 17:21:58 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Fall of the Malakim Nitpicks. [Here there be Spoilers!] SPOILERS!! At 11:29 AM -0400 8/8/98, Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: >p47. Bangman the Calabite has no "pet discord." Coulda sworn I'd done one of those. *sigh* Okay... Cold-Blooded/3, normally a Shedite Discord. >p57. Scamper, the Impudite of Dark Humor, is personally killing people, on >a decent scale. Sure, it takes weeks for them to die, but he's doing it. >And there's no humor in it, it's just simple confinement and torture. Pickling them is funny -- it takes a while, but hey... It should also be noted that the joke becomes upon *Scamper* after a while -- and his life is now miserable, which fits his Band Attunement. [I also would allow a miserable Kobalite to laugh at itself to fix the dissonance for a day. As K.K. did in Maya's Fiat Justitia game, indeed.] >p69. If relations only advance one space, Shouldn't the sidebox read >"Hostile" becomes "Neutral" rather than "Hostile" becomes "Associated?" Would you be neutral if there were only 5 of you? >p77. Mal the Calabite doesn't have a pet discord either. Ugly/3. >p117. Why would opening an Angelic Tether kill Natalie's vessel? Just a >dramatic plot thing? Or some part of Tether Canon we haven't seen yet? A bit of both, really. Re-opening Tethers is rare, and can do some interesting things. (Yes, that's going to be in the Tether book.) >p125, Dominic insists that the investigating angels be made outcasts. It's all Yves' manipulations. I think that's only if they start insisting that the "Fallen Malakite" was *not* killed, but that instead he's alive. Which means there may be a live Fallen Malakite running around loose, to Dom... (Who is probably a little unhinged right now.) Others note that most Hearts can't be shattered by others... Yes, this took an artifact specially made by the Prince of Factions, who knows quite a lot about fractures... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 14:20:10 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Granting Words (Re: Lost Words?) At 10:03 AM -0500 8/6/98, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >CaelinR@aol.com wrote: > >> Pondering #2: What is so special about Lucifer that allows him to >> grant words? > >Anyway, can't DPs grant Words at the sub-Prince level? Nope. (Not in canon, anyway.) >I mean, does the Demon of Practical Jokes get his Word from Kobal or >from Lucifer? Lucifer. (Kobal talks Lucifer into it.) >And can't individual AAs grant sub-Archangel Words to servitors? I don't think so. My take? (And yes, as LE, though of course every GM gets to decide their own way.) Lucifer is the First Balseraph, and the most powerful Balseraph. (Michael may have kicked him out once, but could he do it again? An interesting question...) He can force his Truth upon the Symphony, he can grant Words. Even the Council grants Words as a body (and I think there must be some "critical mass" of Archangels/Major Seraphim Council Members to do this, and either no dissenting voices, or they're granting the Word away from all other Archangels/Major Members who might object). *Perhaps* the Princes could get together in an Infernal Council -- but #1: they don't cooperate that well and #2: Lucifer has reserved Word-binding to himself alone (IPG, p. 11), so anyone trying to start this will be answering questions to the Game... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 17:22:07 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Lilith and her Word (Re: Lost Words?) At 11:53 PM -0700 8/5/98, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: > it has be theorized (i don't remember where) that it's only the >Word of Freedom that *keeps Lilith alive.* Though recall that she wandered, immortal and alone, long before the Fall... (Main book writeup.) Lucifer might be able to take the Word away, and drop her from Princess to immortal human, but I don't think he could soul-kill her -- unless that was the pact that they made. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 17:43:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Fall of the Malakim: Problems and Patches On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Elizabeth Bartley wrote: > On Fri, 7 Aug 1998, Pee Kitty wrote: > > > > tells Jean everything. The Kyrio can use the Seraph attunement to create > > > a reproduction showing what happened *exactly*, but since it's a > > > reproduction rather than a recording, it can't be resonated on. > > > Sorry, but the APG made it clear; the reproduction can be resonated on at > > a small penalty. > > Where does it do that? Page 27, under Superiors and Seraphim, under Jean. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! ::: Official Martyr of X-Day! ::: Thinking about a Tampa Bay Devival in the future - email me! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 17:08:34 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Fall of the Malakim: Problems and Patches On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Pee Kitty wrote: > Page 27, under Superiors and Seraphim, under Jean. Ah, thank you. "Their video displays let them invoke resonance on someone later, at their leisure, at -1 to the check digit." It doesn't actually say whether *others* can invoke resonance on that video display -- but since it specfically mentions the video display, and not just the perfect memory, I would guess others can. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 23:57:23 +0100 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> (no subject) Donato Ranzato: >I am toying with the idea of writing up Amsterdam as an In Nomine setting (a >city divided between Eli, drugs and parties, and Andre, sex and parties). > _Please_ write this up and post it :) - -- Julian - Malakite of Royale's with Cheese ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 23:53:30 +0100 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Demon Conception >>For purposes of a scenario should it be possible for a Demon to rape an >>Angel causing the Angel to conceive? > > Well, the first problem is that the Vessels of both angels and >Demons are sterile, and remain so unless the celestial uses the Celestial >Song of Fruitition. It's further complicated that even if both use the >Celestial Song of Fruitition, a pregnancy still won't result; the >reqirements ofv the song of Fruitition are that at least one partner be >human. > >One way that this could be arranged would be if the raping demon is a >Shedite, spossessing a Human host, and the raped Angel had sung the >Celestial Song of Fruitition Recently. > >Another way around it is to make the Angel in question be one of the >Grigori, who don't need the Song of Fruitition to reproduce. In this case, >a non-shedite Demon who knows the Song of Fruitition might be able to pull >it off, but then, it's a deliberate attempt to get a human pregnant. > How about a demon using Asmodeus' Humanity attunement as well? - -- Julian jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 20:06:17 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Kerzog, Demon Prince of Weaponry One thing to keep in mind when creating new Demon Princes -- the more Superiors you introduce, the more you dilute those already present. IMC, and in canon, new Superiors aren't going to show up unless they really fill a distinct conceptual hole, something not already firmly covered by an existing Superior. Kerzog, Demon Prince of Weaponry, has a Word that is completely subsumed by Baal's Word. I can't imagine why he'd allow Kerzog to become independent, or why Lucifer would make him a Prince. I have a bigger problem with this write-up, though: Kerzog _invented_ gun powder, guns, and nuclear weapons? Heck, who needs humans? This is exactly the kind of White Wolfish "supernatural beings are really responsible for every important innovation" notion that we try hard to avoid in canon. The "A John Woo Film" attunement was cute, though. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 20:22:42 EDT From: Akumsa@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Kerzog, Demon Prince of Weaponry Did you read the write up? He was working with VAPULA, and together they created Gunpowder, ect. Sure its sounds kinda against canon, but if Nybas can invent the TV, why cant Kerzog invent gunpower and nukes? and did you ever SEE a John Woo film? No one EVER runs out of bullets. (mind you, I have only seen 2 of his pics I didnt like: A Better Tommrow, and Blackjack.The rest rock.) You cant really give that kind of Attunment to angels. I also wrote Kerzog as STILL being Subserviant to Baal, but Weapons arent always used in a war. Gangs, Thugs, Cops, even some security guards use weapons all the time. Hence his somewhat minor Independance from Baal. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #907 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.