From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Aug 12 11:45:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00772 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 11:45:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id LAA32133 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 11:48:47 -0500 Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 11:48:47 -0500 Message-Id: <199808121648.LAA32133@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #909 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, August 12 1998 Volume 01 : Number 909 In this digest: Re: IN> Demon Conception Re: IN> Angelic Hearts Re: IN> Angelic Hearts Re: IN> Dissonance question Re: IN> Angelic Hearts Re: IN> Angelic Hearts Re: IN> Archangels of the Virtues? Re: IN> Dissonance question Re: IN> Dissonance question Re: IN> Humanocentrism (was Kerzog) Re: IN> Dissonance question Re: IN> Angelic Hearts Re: IN> Dissonance question Re: IN> Kerzog, Demon Prince of Weaponry Re: IN> Why not take Dissonance to escape Geas? Re: IN> Dissonance question IN> The Contessa of Envy Re: IN> Dissonance question Re: IN> Dissonance question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 12:51:16 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Demon Conception On Mon, Aug 10, 1998 at 02:19:23PM +0100, Hart, Joanna wrote: > Getting a celestial vessel to conceive involves using a song (celestial song > of fruition, which is in the APG), because it can't happen under ordinary > circumstances. That was mainly for having a celestial get pregnant by a > mortal (or vice versa) but I'd guess the same might hold for two celestial > vessels. So if the demon knows that song, I think it could do that. > I assumed that the Song had to be sung once by each participant, if both participants were Celestials with Vessels. One assumes a Celestial with a female Vessel could sex-change it with Celestial form, and then sing Fruition in order to impregnate someone else, though it wouldn't make for a very long session (though depending on what went on beforehand...) Note that if two Songs of Fruition are used, you've a greater than 50% chance of birthing a Nephallim, which takes much of the point out of it (or might not). This assumes that neither of the participants are Calabim. I'm not sure about the use of Humanity. You have to pay Essence every day in order to maintain the human state (IIRC), and don't get any Essence while doing so. I'm not sure whether reverting to demonic nature should result in a miscarriage, or whether it's only necessary for the actual conception. It depends, I suppose, on whether the Song of Fruition is also responsible for maintaining appropriate hormone levels during pregnancy, etc. And while we're on the subject, given that Celestial Vessels are normally sterile, do they menstruate? Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 08:09:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Angelic Hearts > > I have two very serious problems with this response. The first is that > > the statement in the APG contains no wiggle room. I will quote again, > > slightly more fully. "Only the angel's own actions can cause the final > > destruction of his Heart. Until an Outcast falls, his Heart is sacred > > and inviolable, even to his Superior." There is no ambiguity in this > > statement. It does not admit the possibility of, "...but Malphas knows > > a lot about fractures, so he can create an artifact that can do it." > > > Hmm...if one thinks of this as a statement of what angels in general would > know, which is what I'd expect to have in the APG (as opposed to the > Angelic Storyteller's Guide), then it stands. Angelic Superiors can't, so > far as their Servitors know, finally destroy their own Servitors' Hearts. > Malphas is a different story. I think of this artifact as being an > extension of the Calabite of Factions attunement, which is able to > temporarily sever the emotional and intellectual links that bond Cherubim > to their attuned, Celestials to their Superiors, etc. Since any Joe Calab > of Factions can do this, what can Malphas do? [I'm quoting a chunk. I know. Shoo.] I haven't read the adventure in question, but from what I can tell, it's plagued by so many implausibilities that, you know, what the heck. But under my mystical powers as a GM, the only thing that stands is the core rules, and I don't accept any additional source books, source material, or add on supplements. From what I gathered from the core rules (and over a year of running the game) is that a Heart belongs to one person, one person alone, and it's theirs to take care of, forever. It's a representation of their soul, the part of them that loves them and cares for them no matter what happens. It's not merely this link that hooks one from the vessel to the celestial realm, it's a very real part of the celestial's being which is kept safe from harm. When the celestial goes to defect via dissonance or jumping or what have you, then there is a rupture between it and it's true nature, and this is reflected in the Heart. Only the Superior of that particular celestial has any control over the Heart in question. All others can merely look into the Heart to find the location of the celestial, and from the condition, figure out where he stands with dissonance and discord. That is it. No artifacts, no hokey under the table magic, no tricks, nothing. Period. Violating this begins to violate that particular aspect of the game. I mean, heck, if any old Superior, or even 'just Malphas' for some reason, can go around breaking celestial Hearts, why hasn't he been doing it all along? I mean, if it's that easy, if a Superior can just make an artifact, why hasn't Kobal broken into the Game's Heartroom and 'set everyone free'? Why don't demons inflitrate heavenly heartrooms and go on breaking binges? The problem here is that you have a case of clear violation of the rules without any real consideration of the impact on the game world. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 08:20:08 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Angelic Hearts Jo Hart wrote: > I haven't read the book yet but this has brought up something I was curious > about. We know that celestial hearts can't be taken out of the celestial > realms, but would it be possible to steal a heart and take it directly from > hell to heaven, or vice versa? (Assuming that you had a way to travel > directly from one to the other) I'm not sure exactly where, but as I was looking up the previous question, I saw a statement that angelic Hearts can not be removed from Heaven. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 08:36:59 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Dissonance question Jo Hart wrote: > It's quite difficult to define 'generically evil.' I think that an angel > which genuinely feels justified in its actions and isn't engaging in > anything which would be dissonant to its choir or its word shouldn't be > picking up dissonance just because the GM thinks that slaughtering > innocents should be a crime against humanity. I mean, it probably _is_ but > the angel's superior/ allies/ divine inquisition should be able to deal > with it ICly. Dropping unexpected dissonance on someone is like the GM > making a personal comment. Now we're sliding into the post-modern world view that White Wolf took to such extremes that it drove me out WoD. No, it is not possible to give a precise definition of "evil". That doesn't mean it is entirely incomprehensible. Let's go back to the situation that brought this up. Mira Klein is given the task of going to Heaven and shattering the Heart of an angel she knows is in a lot of trouble. (I'm not buying the argument that she didn't know whose Heart she was breaking; then how did she know what to look for in David's cathedral? Malphas certainly didn't get to Heaven in order to attune the artifact to Max's Heart. I'm also skeptical of the argument that Blandine and David don't get along. Didn't FotM tell us that angels in LA move one (or in some cases, two) steps up the relationship chart?) This is unquestionably an evil act, running the risk of causing serious harm to another angel, even if it is short of Falling. It does not have the mitigating aspect of, "Well, the Shedim was in there somewhere, and it was going to do nasty things." > For better or worse, I think it is part of the flavur of the game that > angels will sometimes do things which an unenlightened observer might > regard as morally dubious, in the course of fighting the war. You'd hope > most of them would regret the necessity afterwards, but that isn't > absolutely necessary IMO. I agree that it is part of the flavor of the game. But commiting unquestionably evil acts ought to be against an angel's nature regardless of what the written dissonance conditions are. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 08:47:58 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Angelic Hearts Kevin Walsh wrote: > Hmm...if one thinks of this as a statement of what angels in general would > know, which is what I'd expect to have in the APG (as opposed to the > Angelic Storyteller's Guide), then it stands. Angelic Superiors can't, so > far as their Servitors know, finally destroy their own Servitors' Hearts. > Malphas is a different story. I think of this artifact as being an > extension of the Calabite of Factions attunement, which is able to > temporarily sever the emotional and intellectual links that bond Cherubim > to their attuned, Celestials to their Superiors, etc. Since any Joe Calab > of Factions can do this, what can Malphas do? Then would someone please come out with the Storyteller's Guide, so that I have some idea of what the real mechanics are? Is all of the information in the APG and IPG this unreliable? Besides, despite the name, a lot of the material in these books seems pretty clearly meant, if not specifically for the GM, then as statements of the rules and mechanics. > Mira Klein is the perfect example of this. It is her > > nature to fulfill the geas, yet it is very obvious that the Right Thing > > To Do would be to resist the geas and not shatter Maximilian's Heart. > > (This also begs the question of how the inherent nature of Bright Lilim > > is different from the Dark variety.) > > It doesn't, except insofar as they are bound to an angelic Word, and the > nature of that Word prevents them from Geasing others. Dark Lilim, like all demons, are inherently selfish; it's their dominant characteristic. Bright Lilim are not. This most assuredly is a change in inherent nature, and it should affect the actions they take, the decisions they make and the way they view the world. And, in my view, it leads to the position that Doing Right is also part of their nature. > Nor should you. IIRC, violating a Geas doesn't cause dissonance rolls, > even though it causes dissonance. You promote your Superior's word well. The next time Mira has to make a dissonance roll, the result of evading the geas is what is going to put her in peril. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 10:10:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Angelic Hearts > Then would someone please come out with the Storyteller's Guide, so that > I have some idea of what the real mechanics are? Is all of the > information in the APG and IPG this unreliable? Besides, despite the > name, a lot of the material in these books seems pretty clearly meant, > if not specifically for the GM, then as statements of the rules and > mechanics. As far as I am concerned, the only sourcebook that matters is the core rules - the badly organized, often oddly misworded hardcover that sits on my coffee table. Anything else is just fluff. It's fluff with nice art, granted, but it's not to be taken as gospel. I was put into a position, as a GM, about 6 months ago where I was making constant rulings on what was good and what was not in THE MARCHES and NIGHT MUSIC. It got to be a real headache. I couldn't rewrite my world to fit anywhere near canon and keep up with the deluge of contradicting source material and new Superiors. I made a ruling that _no_ material, regardless how interesting or neat or cool, was to make it into Holy War unless explicitly stated. It has since saved me all sorts of grief. [Oddly, my tether mechanics will have been nearly in sync until Thursday. After that, well, In Nomine does not have the bite or the gore or the sheer effect I need to fit with my GMing style, and even the core rules go.] This is what might work for you if you're GMing. You can tell your players, well, none of it is any good and purchase at your own peril. Granted, this causes my players to buy comic books and new shoes and cool LEGOs rather then sourcebooks, but theoretically, the only person who needs to keep up on the new stuff is the GM, in case there IS something useful. You will save yourself all sorts of problems, and then heck, you don't have to worry about FotM, or FT, or anything else that comes out. You can just play the game. As for the APG, god knows. The world would be a happier place without it. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 10:25:04 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Archangels of the Virtues? Adam Canning wrote: > Malakim are described in the basic rules as Virtues... Yep. Of course, if there are more than a few dozen Malakim, it gets a little awkward, identifying each one with a unique moral virtue. The IN angelology is loosely related to the angelology of Pseudo-Dionsius, the most popular angelology of the Middle Ages. There were nine choirs in it, organized into three groups of three. In order, they were: - Seraphim (same), Cherubim (same), Thrones (Ophanim) - Powers (Elohim), Dominations (Kyriotates), Virtues (Malakim) - Principalities (no map), Archangels (no map), Angels (Aercurians) The top triad was said to be strictly heavenly courtiers, with little or no business outside the celestial realm. The bottom triad supplied guardian angels for nations, cities, and individuals. The middle triad governed nature, and the "Virtues" were not thought of as connected to the moral virtues, but as sustaining the powers inherent in natural objects -- like the medicinal "virtue" of an herb, or the "virtue" in a magnet that lets it draw metal, etc. Not much like the Malakim of IN, I'm afraid. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 10:25:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Dissonance question > Let's go back to the situation that brought this up. Mira Klein is > given the task of going to Heaven and shattering the Heart of an angel > she knows is in a lot of trouble. (I'm not buying the argument that she > didn't know whose Heart she was breaking; then how did she know what to > look for in David's cathedral? Malphas certainly didn't get to Heaven > in order to attune the artifact to Max's Heart. I'm also skeptical of > the argument that Blandine and David don't get along. Didn't FotM tell > us that angels in LA move one (or in some cases, two) steps up the > relationship chart?) Nah, you've run into a more interesting logistical problem. Say you simply remove the Lilim and replace her with someone that makes more sense, like a Mercurian. Right? So the Mercurian, instead, on her own, is Falling but not Outcast or really dissonant, and she gets the Big Talk from Malphas. She does this one little thing, and when she joins him, she'll be so much cooler then everyone else and he'll give her all the cool attunements so that she'll be the envy of Factions. Yadda yadda, standard recruitment. So she buys it, goes up to Heaven, and you no longer have a character with this big obvious "THIS IS A DISCORD SOMEONE PLEASE STOP ME YEAH IT'S HUGE I KNOW YOU CAN SEE IT CELESTIALLY SOMEONE CALL THE INQUISITION" hanging off her neck. (How a Lilim with an active Geasa can go anywhere in Heaven without being asked anything is beyond me. Sure, it might be from someone legitamite, but it's still active discord - in a place where they pester you over one point of dissonance. And remember, in Heaven, you can only speak the truth.) The problems are: 1) Only someone familiar with the Hearts like a caretaker, the Superior, or the victim can innately find the Heart. (I dunno if this is _canon_ per se, more like extrapolating logic.) 2) David's Catacombs are infinite in size. (H&H) The Hearts could be hidden anywhere in the Catacombs (core rules, H&H). 3) The person who is not Stone has just walked into a den of militant neo-nazi biker punks looking for someone's Heart, which is sort of like walking into a skinhead camp and asking to use the bathroom. 4) Only the victim or the Superior can break the Heart. (APG). I think the 'infinite in size' is the big stumbling block. Malphas has got himself a long wait. Remember, I haven't read the adventure. I'm just guessing from what has been posted on the List. - - Em. Logic is fun! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:46:09 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Dissonance question >Now we're sliding into the post-modern world view that White Wolf took to such >extremes that it drove me out WoD. Agreed. I was getting very tired of the 'Everyone is right' p.o.v. >No, it is not possible to give a precise >definition of "evil". That doesn't mean it is entirely incomprehensible. >Let's go back to the situation that brought this up. Mira Klein is given the >task of going to Heaven and shattering the Heart of an angel she knows is in a >lot of trouble. Yeah, well I have some problems with geases anyway. In this particular game, I dislike powers which coerce people to do specific things, as it seems too easy for a demon to force an angel to fall IMO. I don't feel that falling is something which should be coerced quite that overtly, just because some lilim had a geas/2 on a seraph and made it lie about something (for example). It never worried me too much with Vampire, because in a sense that's all about control and puppeteering, but this is a different type of theme. I have no real problems with demons using other techniques, such as torture, blackmail, bribery etc etc. The victim still gets a choice, even if it is a skewed one. It's the 'It wasn't my fault because I was geased into it' that I dislike. Even in a case like this, I can easily imagine ways in which the angel could be blackmailed to stitch up another angel. "I know how to locate some of your sisters who are renegade and would be interested in redemption. Is one discordant angel worth as much to you as the chance of saving two of your sisters?" This seems more interesting, as the angel has to try to choose the worst of two evils. YMMV. If I were the divine inquisition (a bit of a stretch, I know) and I had evidence of even one case in which something similar had happened, and 'It was a geas, I couldn't help it' was the excuse given, I would simply order that any angel with geas hooks should report them immediately, and assign cherubim such that as soon as a lilim showed up to collect its geas, they could be ambushed and soul-killed. Any angel with a hefty geas on it probably shouldn't be allowed out of heaven until the lilim has been located and disposed of. Why take those risks? Basically 'I was geased so it wasn't my fault' is not an argument which I would expect to stand up in a divine tribunal. That's no more unfair than the original geas was. Maybe geases should just dissolve when a demon redeems, same as any other celestial discord :) :) Also, I'd figure that pretty much any redeemed demon is likely to have some geas hooks in it, purely from having hung around lilim in the past. I'd assume they make a practice of resonating their colleagues for needs where possible, and collecting the hooks. Any sensible demon prince will be auditing its lilim regularly to find out on whom they have hooks, because that's useful information. jo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 10:51:43 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Humanocentrism (was Kerzog) Doug Muir wrote several good ideas, including: > I think it makes things much more interesting if we keep things > relatively humanocentric, especially in the technological fields. For > one thing, it makes humans more important (and also more dangerous). > For another, angels and demons are interested in morality and > behavior. > Technology is sort of secondary. They're trying to redeem or corrupt > us; giving us faster modems or cold fusion is of interest only insofar > as it aids those goals. I think the interest of celestials in technology would be that it be discovered and used by the "right" people, to get the best or worst moral effect. So, in an historical setting, celestials might have been battling over whether the Allies or the Axis got the A-bomb first. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 11:18:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Dissonance question > If I were the divine inquisition (a bit of a stretch, I know) and I had > evidence of even one case in which something similar had happened, and 'It > was a geas, I couldn't help it' was the excuse given, I would simply order > that any angel with geas hooks should report them immediately, and assign > cherubim such that as soon as a lilim showed up to collect its geas, they > could be ambushed and soul-killed. Any angel with a hefty geas on it > probably shouldn't be allowed out of heaven until the lilim has been located > and disposed of. Why take those risks? Basically 'I was geased so it wasn't > my fault' is not an argument which I would expect to stand up in a divine > tribunal. That's no more unfair than the original geas was. Maybe geases > should just dissolve when a demon redeems, same as any other celestial > discord :) :) You know, I agree with this 100%. This pretty much hits it right on the head. I don't buy the 'it was a geas, it wasn't my fault' excuse either. First of all, I don't buy excuses like this at ALL normally in my daily life, and that's just how I'm wired. (I give a few, but no one buys them either.) Second, and more importantly, guess what? It was a geas and IT WAS YOUR FAULT. I used the capitol letters to get my point across. You don't like the fact that you were geased into killing your loved one? Tough. You shouldn't have accepted that little love token 500 years ago. You don't like the fact that you no longer have any free will? Too bad. You shouldn't have been sleeping with the Lilim. You're an Angel, you have been assigned Earth Duty, and theoretically, you're not stupid. And it was entirely your fault. And as for a Bright Lilim, I would think there was an accounting done up front during the debriefing after redemption, so there are no surprises and no gotchas. If there is something hanging off of her that is extremely dangerous and cannot be removed or purchased (like say, for instance, a Geas/5 owed to Malphas himself), then the price she pays for redemption is permentant retirement in Heaven. She's played the game, and she's won, and now she gets to collect her prize and spend eternity sitting by the pool sipping Mai Tais. I mean, hell, I play a Lilim. And it's acceptable that if a geas goes off, he's going to be locked in a room with padded walls somewhere in the Spires until something interesting happens, unless it was set off by an Archangel. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 10:27:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Angelic Hearts On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Eeyore wrote: > I have two very serious problems with this response. The first is that > the statement in the APG contains no wiggle room. I will quote again, > slightly more fully. "Only the angel's own actions can cause the final > destruction of his Heart. Until an Outcast falls, his Heart is sacred > and inviolable, even to his Superior." There is no ambiguity in this > statement. It does not admit the possibility of, "...but Malphas knows > a lot about fractures, so he can create an artifact that can do it." One possibility which would make the artifact make more sense would be changing the nature of the artifact so that it didn't break the Heart; it made the Heart more fragile so that it would break when Maximilian did something that caused him to take dissonance. This would also remove the need for careful timing so that Mira breaks the Heart when Maximilian is on film. This still involves a Heart breaking without the angel necessarily Falling, but there's no way around that. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 10:38:42 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Dissonance question Emily Dresner wrote: > The problems are: (reasons given, but snipped) I agree with all of these. But they were originally brought up by someone else (Elizabeth Bartley, I think) and I didn't want to steal all the thunder just because I'm obsessive and check my e-mail every fifteen minutes. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 08:42:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Shumaker Subject: Re: IN> Kerzog, Demon Prince of Weaponry On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Ben-Prime wrote: # 3) Conversely to the above, and yet not contradicting it, we have #numerous canonical examples of servitors who cross Superior Lines. Druiel #springs to mind most readily. This is the reason that Words are awarded by #the Seraphic Council or Lucifer, rather than by superiors themselves. # # In short, I gotta de-lurk to agree with David, here. # #Ben I guess I will join Ben and emmerge from the shadows to agree with David. On the other hand, I really didnt find anything of use in FOTM. It is the first SJG book that I have ever given away. - --Jim Shumaker ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 10:47:49 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Why not take Dissonance to escape Geas? On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Eeyore wrote: > Elizabeth McCoy wrote: [ ... ] > > Lilim are conditioned by their *natures* to follow a Geas, too, > > I'd think. (Especially the Free, but also the bound.) By > > psychology and metaphysics, a Geas is unthinkable to break. Most > > Geases broken by Lilim are probably ones that have placed them in > > a position where it's dissonant if they do and dissonant if they > > don't. [Ellen slams Amanda up against the wall and snarls, "You > > idiot! YOU PUT ME IN GEAS-CONFLICT WITH AN ARCHANGEL!" (Not the > > smartest thing to say, but hey, she had a nasty Geas-conflict > > going...)] > If this is the case, then no Archangel in his or her right mind would set a > Bright Lilim loose to face the world with a significant geas owed to an > infernal, particularly a DP. Heck, if this is the case, then no sane Archangel would let a Bright Lilim - - *any* Bright Lilim - out of Heaven. She may not owe anybody now, but one of her sisters might be able to fill her Needs and get a hook, or even several hooks. That sister's Prince would probably be happy to send something with the Celestial Song of Charm (to sap Will) when the other Lilim tries to call in the geas. Also remember that *Demon Princes* would have to worry a lot about the trustworthiness of their Lilim if the geasa were so nearly impossible to resist. Certainly Demon Princes trust their servitors less far than Archangels trust theirs, but I didn't see a suggestion that Lilim were _that_ much of a security risk. (I reiterate my previous suggestion for the _Fall of the Malakim_ adventure: forget the geas, substitute a Will-Shackle which is invisible in Heaven because Dominic made it so as to be invisible in Heaven.) Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 16:49:14 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Dissonance question >Second, and more importantly, guess what? It was a geas and IT WAS YOUR >FAULT. I used the capitol letters to get my point across. You don't like >the fact that you were geased into killing your loved one? Tough. You >shouldn't have accepted that little love token 500 years ago. The problem is that the angel presumably didn't know it was accepting something from a lilim. This is what I see as the unfair part. You can say that an angel should never accept anything from anyone, but that might make roles and mixing with mortals a little tricky in places. Generous people will offer things to their friends if they think their friends want or need them, without asking for anything in return. Angels are supposed to encourage generousity in others (I'd think), and will certainly be used to it from their time spent in heaven. Perhaps an angel's natural reaction on perceiving something which it sees as generousity is to simply accept it as a good thing and try to reciprocate. They have no defence against lilim. I'm sure I've said this before, but I think lilim should have to offer the bargain up front (as in, I have this thing you need and you can have it, but I'll want a favour from you in return). At least that way, anyone who accepts it genuinely does deserve what they get... If they phrased it subtly, they could still trap angels, and it fits all the folklore about never entering into bargains when you don't know what the other side is going to be. The way it works now, the geasee is always tricked into the bargain unwittingly. It just.. sits wrong with me. I'd like lilim a lot better if they didn't strike me as being so unfair. jo ps. Come to think of it, I rather like the idea that geases might vanish on redemption. It would give Lilith a _really_ big incentive to make sure her frees didn't go angelic, and would explain better why Asmodeus allows free lilim to wander without hearts anyway. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 16:46:31 +0100 From: Julian Breen Subject: IN> The Contessa of Envy Glasya Contessa of Envy, Lilim of Factions. 'The World is what you make it, and I like what _you_ make it.' Glasya has always aspired to greatness. She was born free but wandered toward Greed, and in time became a favourite consort of Mammon. It was whilst serving here that Glasya thought that she saw an opening for herself in the corridors of power. Mammon was displeased with Achaz - the Djinn Prince of Covetousness - a minor Prince whose desire was causing him to overstep the mark and tread on Mammon's toes. Glasya believed that if she held the Word of Covetousness she could run it so much better. She agreed with Mammon that something would have to be done about Achaz's audacity, and offered to help by spinning some deals with Factions. Due to masterful planning and intrigue, Achaz's court suffered dissention in the ranks and fell down around him. Glasya was invited to dine that evening at Villa Discordia. She offered a favour to Malphas to support her application for the now vacant Word (realising that Mammon would probably not support her so) and quickly, for The Prince of Greed was already setting about acquiring the deeds to Achaz's fallen principality. The romantic candlelit dinner was indeed interrupted by the appearance of Lucifer. Glasya presented her request... and winced when The Dark Lord began, 'No. I'm afraid not.' Expecting imminent destruction, she was surprised when he continued, 'Too... Outdated . I see you more as Envy myself. What do you think Malphas? That would be a Word worthy of a Contessa would it not?' Malphas bemusedly agreed and said that he would gladly grant her the Distinction if she would but accept Lucifer's Word. Glasya expressed her utmost gratitude toward the Lords, and quickly did so. Yet inwardly she seethed. Robbed of a Princedom and sold into slavery in one fell swoop! She had been cheated by those in power, yet how she grudgingly _admired_ that power and wanted it for herself. Malphas has made good use of his servant ever since. She is remarkably valuable with the vast array of favours common to experienced Lilim. He knows that she resents his authority over her of course and that many of her favours will be contrary to his best interests, but that's politics, and an area that he specialises in extremely well. He is also very much aware that she takes a strong dislike to any of his other servitors (seemingly) gaining prestige with him, and uses this against her. One of Malphas' ploys was to appoint Vathek, the Habbalite Demon of Jealousy, beneath her. That was all well and good with Glasya -until- Malphas proclaimed him a Baron of Factions. Vathek was still beneath his mistress in status, but only just. Glasya keeps a close eye on him. Admittedly, Vathek tends to simply concern himself with human relationships but she is wary nonetheless. If he should become too ambitious, then... In the meantime, The Contessa of Envy continues her plotting and scheming, always focusing on something that she feels should rightfully be hers instead of somebody else's. Dissonance It is dissonant for servants of Envy to be content. They must always be striving for something else that somebody else has but they do not. Once per day they must better their lot. Very often this will be at another's expense. Good. They get what they deserve. Band Attunements Balseraphs Aside from automatically causing victims to adopt the balseraph's own envies (from Malphas's attunement) These deceivers also gain bonuses when resonating to instill envy in general. Add their Ethereal Forces to their resonance rolls. Djinn The Stalkers automatically (assume a check of 6) attune to anything that is currently another's attunement! Although they will realise this if they do not know already, they _won't_ automatically know who the original attuner was; be it a Djinn, Cherub, wielder of the Celestial Song of Attraction, or Superior. The Djinn of Envy may *not* voluntarily remove this attunement. Calabim These demons may destroy a victim's contentment with a resonance roll, convincing him that all that he has worked toward or aspired to has availed to naught, whilst others less worthy are more fortunate. This attunement lasts for a number of hours equal to the calabite's check digit. The subject does get a Will roll to resist, but a failure indicates melancholy, or anger. A check of 5 or 6 might result in suicidal or homicidal tendencies. Habbalah A habbalite finding envy finds it easier to amplify. The victim's Will roll in this case is penalised by the demon's ethereal forces. Envy reduces precision and lasts for days. Lilim. Lilim of Envy do not suffer the -2 penalty when confirming an envious Need. Shedim These corrupters need make no resonance roll when 'oozing' between hosts, although the victim still gets a Will roll to resist. Impudites. Do a good enough job of spreading envy simply by being 'charming'. They so much want your essence though that they add their celestial forces to a steal essence roll. If the victim resists this with a higher check digit the demon not only loses the essence but gains a note of dissonance as well. This may be removed if he manages to steal essence back later from that victim. Servitor attunement 'It should have been MINE!' With a Will roll the demon may convince a victim that something that he has or holds dear should rightfully have belonged to the demon. The Demon character should roleplay the excuse. The victim gets a Will roll to resist, but a failure will mean that he will see the demon's viewpoint as being right. The failed check digit will indicate the degree of this agreement, with a higher check indicating extreme measures taken by the victim to make amends. The duration of this attunement is equal to to the essence spent to activate it, in hours. Distinctions (The Contessa will grant nothing above the title of Captain.) Knight of Wanting The Demon can look at a human and see what envious desires he or she has with physical contact and a successful Per roll. Captain of Craving As above but no contact is needed and the demon may add their ethereal forces to the Per roll. Relations Allied: Andrealphus, Mammon Associated: Valefor, Haagenti Hostile: Belial Enemy: Saminga Rites: * Test Drive an expensive car for one hour * Gain an invitation to a prestigious event Chance of Invocation: 0 Invocation Modifiers +1 Scratching the paintwork of an expensive car +2 Possessing something important to somebody else +3 In bed with a neighbour's wife +4 In bed with his wife and teenage daughter(s) +5 Bringing about the ruin of somebody in power +6 Bringing about their ruin and replacing them with yourself N.B. Like Lilith, a bonus may be added to the invocation if you Geas yourself as she is summoned. Only her servitors, or those of Malphas, may invoke her though. She is highly unlikely to show unless you sweeten the deal with a favour, after all, what else do you have that she could possibly want? ;) - -- Julian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 12:16:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Dissonance question > > I agree with all of these. But they were originally brought up by someone > else (Elizabeth Bartley, I think) and I didn't want to steal all the thunder > just because I'm obsessive and check my e-mail every fifteen minutes. But it becomes a great logistic problem! How do you find a single finite object in a space of infinite size, without knowing where the object is in the first place? The Cathedrals could be fractal in nature, and of course, me being an engineer who has had almost lethal exposures to calculus, mine are. The space outside is necessarily finite, but on the inside, you face an infinite amount of corridors, rooms, nooks, crannies, and swimming pools. You can, if you know the exact coordinates, traverse across a finite amount of space from point A to point B, and it's a simple matter of plotting your course since it requires knowledge of point B and plotting the shortest route along the curve. But if you DON'T know, you'll find yourself traversing one of those infinite spaces which are contained in a finite volume for a very long time, artifact or no artifact. It's a matter of a finite body with a finite perception traversing an infinite space given in three dimensions without knowledge of the plotting or coordinate system or any way to anchor themselves spacially. The construct I'm thinking of is something like a very general Sierpinski's triangle or a Peano Curve. I used to generate these suckers on my programmable graphing calculator before it died a Final Death, which shows just what kind of a geek I am. This is my reasoning behind requiring all celestials to either have an Heart, an attunement from the Superior in question, or a guide to get them through a Cathedral. Those with a Heart can use it for a guide, with an attunement get "Instant Map" as a freebie, and a guide gets you from point A to point B. Otherwise, where would the Dominicans hide all that paperwork? (I love this for, say, Fate. An infinite series of bookshelves, filling cabinets, and meeting rooms, all confined in a finite space, opening up at predetermined points to various random points in Hell, and once inside, you can NEVER ESCAPE because you're trapped for an infinite amount of time in eternally recursing stacks of paper.) - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 12:29:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Dissonance question > I'm sure I've said this before, but I think lilim should have to offer the > bargain up front (as in, I have this thing you need and you can have it, but > I'll want a favour from you in return). At least that way, anyone who > accepts it genuinely does deserve what they get... If they phrased it > subtly, they could still trap angels, and it fits all the folklore about > never entering into bargains when you don't know what the other side is > going to be. The way it works now, the geasee is always tricked into the > bargain unwittingly. It just.. sits wrong with me. I'd like lilim a lot > better if they didn't strike me as being so unfair. Actually, I like this more then my previous rant. People have pointed out time and again that Lilim are power munchkins, because they can get you without you needing to know about it. On the other hand, forcing them to bargin seems to level the playing field somewhat. - - Em ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #909 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.