From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Aug 13 22:31:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA00512 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:31:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id WAA08244 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:32:41 -0500 Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:32:41 -0500 Message-Id: <199808140332.WAA08244@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #915 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, August 13 1998 Volume 01 : Number 915 In this digest: Re: IN> over page counts Re: IN> Fall of the Malakim Nitpicks. [Here there be Spoilers!] Re: IN> Shedim Problem (Re: Why not spread the Word) IN> Lilim Traps (Re: Dissonance question) Re: IN> Demon Conception RE: IN> Angelic Players' Guide (FotM spoiler) IN> FotM Re: IN> Gates of hell IN> ANOTHER new Archangel. IN> Broken Hearts IN> FotM's supposed Flaws (Spoilers aplenty!) IN> Daniel, Hutriel, & Final Judgement IN> Fall of the Malakim (Vauge spoilers only) IN> angel atvantage Re: IN> Broken Hearts Re: IN> Lilim Traps (Re: Dissonance question) Re: IN> over page counts Re: IN> _Fall of the Malakim_ Re: IN> Lilim Traps (Re: Dissonance question) IN> Cycle Books and Stuff (*No* Spoilers) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 19:55:01 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> over page counts At 3:46 PM -0700 8/13/98, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: >On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> This is the major problem, yes. The page budget. (I had a really nice >> box for Lilith, too, which was 150 words over. Chopchop.) > it's nice to see that there are other considerations that get made >that we don't see in the final product of a book, but in cases like the >above, is there any reason why we the buyers can't be given the >information either in a future supplement or online? No reason at all. Except that if it's going into a future supplement, it probably won't go online first. (I do have some notions as to where those 150 words might go, yes. I am saving them for that.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 19:36:28 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Fall of the Malakim Nitpicks. [Here there be Spoilers!] At 12:04 AM -0400 8/12/98, Eeyore wrote: > >So he'll take dissonance when things get straightened out. This is the only >ending listed for an angelic group, so it still feels like they're being >railroaded. What happens if the PCs come back and say, "Yup. He Fell. We >killed him, though, so at least it's taken care of." That's probably even >what >they'll believe, since there isn't a good way for them to tell that the fakes >aren't Maximilian. Unless, of course, Dominic resonates on them when they >tell >the story, in which case the whole truth will come out. Come to think of it, >he might do this if they come back and say that Max wasn't there. What then? >Seraph Archangels are a real pain if you're trying to run a mystery. DOminic probably Resonantes everyone he talks to, on general principles./ There are a couple ways to provbe that the Malakim were faked. The easiest one to prove is the Construct. Being a construct, its corpse disappears when you kill it, going off with a bang much like going Celestial. However, said Celestial form isn't going to give off a bang like "ascending to the celestial plane," it's just going to vanish. If the Angels can get this on tape (or have an obliging Seraph of Lightning nearby) it should be obvious, Constructs disappear, Vessels remain. Barring that, one f the Seraphim present at the debriefing should be able to vouch for the veracity ofthe statement. Scurvy's a little more difficuylt to determine. A ping of a Mercurian Resonamce at CD 3 or higher, or a Seraph of yves attunement. A Malakite Resonance might do it, one would expect Max's most ignoble thing that he's done in that wek, month, year, or Ever, is Falling. (or if he had a personality inversion, most noble thing) And LA will soon be crawling with Malakim. What will be obvious though, is that the Corporeal Discord on the body will not disappear upon death, because it's not seared into Scurvy's soul, but built into the body. Max's Corporeal discords would disappear after he was slain for that reason. That is, unless Kobal was a lot more thorough than I infer from the paragraph, inscribing said Discord into Scurvy's soul On top of that, if anyone knows that Max had the Bound discord, it should be trivial to discover whether you killed Max; His Soul should appear shortly in Celestial Form and hang around the body. Scurvy's going to hop to his Heart if he still has one, Limbo if he doesn't. This presumes, of course, he hasn't been already embraced and "fixed" by a Demon Prince. Barring that, get someone to sing the Song of the Symphony. It's one Essence, and for something this important, it shouldn't be that difficult to convince /somone/. One of these proofs should be enough to cast doubt on Janus's Sources' belief that the Fake Malakim are just innuendo. Oh, and if Natalie does getr spontaneously Redeemed and slain by Eli's Tether, won't she wake up in Limbo? ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Trudy, Impudite Captain of Gluttony, the Demon of Popcorn nofori@pop3.utoledo.edu | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 19:38:05 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Shedim Problem (Re: Why not spread the Word) My mistake. It's something I saw on the list a long, long time ago, and I knew there was some reason I'd been sitting on the idea for over a year. Ah, well. ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Trudy, Impudite Captain of Gluttony, the Demon of Popcorn nofori@pop3.utoledo.edu | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:02:46 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Lilim Traps (Re: Dissonance question) At 4:18 PM -0700 8/13/98, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: >On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > [much useful stuff snipped] >> (That's why my Lilim call such things "traps" -- because if they can >> fulfill the Need, they would no longer *want* the hook...) > maybe i'm not getting enough sleep, maybe i'm too selfish right >now, or maybe it's been too long since i read all the Lilim relevent >sections of IN, but i can't wrap my brain around the above point. would >you mind explaining further? Okay, you're a normal Lilim, Hellborn, unredeemed. You have, for some reason, resonated an angel who knows what you are. You get the following Need: "I want this Lilim to understand selflessness, to know what it's like to hear the true Symphony, to feel love." And what do you do? It's completely within your power (maybe?) to change yourself, to break your brain and try very hard to fulfill this Need (which may be a 5 or 6, even). You could get there, you could do it. But if you did, you'd no longer want the hook it would bring. You *would* have *changed* yourself. Fulfilling the Need would make you other than you are, and that great hook on an angel -- would be given away instantly. From Em, I've gotten the personal notion that Lilim *like* fulfilling Needs, that the first thing they think of, when seeing a Need, is "How can I make this happen?" And combine this with the desire for a selfless Lilim... It's a trap. A very cunning trap. You walk into it, and you don't *want* to walk out. And it's refered to, by Lilim who know, as an "angel-trap" (for they see it in the eyes of angels most often) or a "Lilim-trap" (for it traps Lilim). Is that better? Or do I need to get some blood sugar? O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 19:39:06 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Demon Conception At 7:51 AM -0400 8/12/98, Kevin Walsh wrote: > >I'm not sure about the use of Humanity. You have to pay Essence every day >in order to maintain the human state (IIRC), and don't get any Essence >while doing so. I'm not sure whether reverting to demonic nature should >result in a miscarriage, or whether it's only necessary for the actual >conception. It depends, I suppose, on whether the Song of Fruition is also >responsible for maintaining appropriate hormone levels during pregnancy, >etc. There are sterile humans too. The Humanity Attunementdoesn't need to make the Celstial Fertile to make him appear to be fully Human. > >And while we're on the subject, given that Celestial Vessels are normally >sterile, do they menstruate? I'd give the same answer I give with a host of other involuntary processes that Humans go through, such as aging, growing hair, digestinfg food, sweating, shivering and so on. Not unless they want to. ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Trudy, Impudite Captain of Gluttony, the Demon of Popcorn nofori@pop3.utoledo.edu | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 19:19:23 -0400 From: ixDragons Subject: RE: IN> Angelic Players' Guide (FotM spoiler) - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDC6F3.5268E2C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't see why not, and while your at it, go ahead and list the stats for superiors aswell.... Thanks :) - -----Original Message----- From: Eeyore [SMTP:eeyore@visi.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 1998 10:23 PM To: In Nomine List Subject: IN> Angelic Players' Guide (FotM spoiler) Well, my first problem with Mira being able to break Maximilien's Heart seems to have been decided in favor of the APG being pretty unreliable. If this is the case, would the Powers That Be at least consider doing an errata list for it? For my $18.00, it'd be nice to know which parts are reliable. J. 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I did. I don't have a problem with any of it, but than again I don't believe in "canon" anyway other than the actual game mechanics, no one has the story right... "In the beginning there was light" <-- think about it I mean how much of the Core Book can be right when it's about God and the Devil, Angels and Demons. At first glance I thought the game was too liberal and humanist, with all those gray areas and "Bad" Angels and "Good" Demons. But then again there are definitely wheels within wheels with this game, I mean Fascism is Divine (David) and Liberty is Infernal (Lilith) maybe it's just me though :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:09:53 -0700 From: Gryph Clarke Subject: Re: IN> Gates of hell Bah! My apologies for that letter getting sent out twice. Pandora the kitten lives up to her name, and it got sent twice. Yet more proof for why spoiled fuzzy baby cats should not be allowed on the computer desk.... - - Gryph ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:22:10 EDT From: Akumsa@aol.com Subject: IN> ANOTHER new Archangel. Err... okay not necessarily new, but I did this before. Its more canon than Kerzog, and not as badly researched as Cyril... Oh and someone else on the list mentioned it needed to be assigned awhile ago. UZIEL, Archangel of Justice: (By John T Perkowski. With a LOT of Sensable advice and Ideas from Nana Yaw Ofori) "Justice, Like Lightning / Ever Near / Brings to some men, ruin,/ but to all men, fear." Uziel was a lowly Ofanite in service Gabriel when he did the impossible: He caught someone a Cherub couldn’t. The details are sketchy, but the Diabolical (servitors of Kronos) had plans in mind for him. Through Uziel's intervention, the mortal was sent to study in a monastery. Impressed with the young angel's ability, Gabriel took the young angel under his wing (no pun intended)... Until Dominick decided to make an example of Gabriel. Uziel spoke out on his master's behalf, and was silenced by Dominick lest he share her fate. Determined to help her regain some of her past glory as God's messenger, Uziel embarked on a personal quest to save his master… Although he was unable to cure Gabriel of most of her insanity, his actions began to gather notice among the other archangels. Uziel was sponsored by Gabriel and Yves in his petition to the Seraphim council for his own word: He chose the word of Justice. After a long time debating, the word was granted to him, despite Dominic 's objections. Uziel's word is Justice, but it is ANGELIC justice he must inflict upon the CORPOREAL realm. This makes his word the most difficult of all to pursue. In fact, he was more than once dragged before the Seraphim council by Dominic for heresy against god's word, and each time he escaped Dominic 's judgement by the barest of margins. Despite the fact that Justice and Judgement should work together, and are, In fact, allied, Dominick and Uziel can barley stand each other. Since he deals with the corporeal realm, he is allied with Michael, Laurence, and Yves. (note: I provide a little more info on this than normal, essentially because he spends a lot of time in the corporeal realm) Uziel, Archangel of Justice: Roles: Cop/6 (of course) Lawyer/6 (He is mocked a lot in this form by other angels, but he grits his teeth and smiles) Soldier/6 Private Investigator/6 Martial Arts Instructor/6 Skills: Fighting/6 Cooking/1 Dancing/1 Fast Talk/6 Dodge/6 Languages (Spanish, French, Russian, Prussian, Chinese, Japanese, American, German)/6 Languages (Ancient)/2 Escape/3 Driving/6 Detect Lies/1 Climbing/2 Throwing/3 Tactics/5 (thanks to Laurence) Small Weapon/5 Large Weapon/5 Singing/3 (Time is on my side, yes it is... If you dont get this, watch more movies) Running/4 Songs: (Attraction, Charm, Entropy, Form, Healing, Motion, Possession, Projection, Shields)/ 6 (except entropy, which is a 3, and he dosent know the Ethereal song of Projection or Entropy) Dissonance: It is dissonant for a servitor of Justice to allow a mortal to escape Celestial justice. They need not deal with EVERY escapee, but they must tackle a they next escapee once they finish punishing the last one. Punishments aren't necessarily lethal, just a reminder. If there every was a cosmic backlash device, it is these angels. Choir Attunements: Seraphim: The most Divine of Choirs can instantly see the most just and unjust thing a person has done in his lifetime with a successful resonance role. Cherubim: The Guardians do not suffer any dissonance if the object of their attunement is hurt, provided the subject is atempting to flee justice. Also: He never fails to attune himself to a subject if that subject is a mortal, no resonance role is required, BUT this benefit is only granted if the target of his resonance is fleeing from Justice Ofanim: The Masters of Motion may, with a successful resonance role, know how to get someplace AHEAD of a target with which they are attuned (using either the Celestial song of Attraction or Seek The Guilty). They also know where it is they are headed, even IF they have never been there before. This attunement is only good up to corporeal force hours into the future. A low check didgit results in arriving at ALMOST the exact location (i.e. Next door, down the street, ect.) ("He is going to The Stagger Inn." "How do you know that?" "I know, Trust me! We can beat him there, if we take this shortcut through the woods..." "This is a Mack truck!" "So? We'll fit... Errrrr In most places." Elohim: Due to their excellent powers of objective observation, an Elohite will instantly know if a vessel he sees works for a demon, and who that demon is. This allows him to instantly spot Soldiers of Hell, Zombies, Vampires, and demons in Corporeal form. This is done with a resonance roll on the target. Malakim: The Virtues are Uziel 's favored servitors, and are assigned the most difficult of tasks: ALL Malikites of Uziel are assigned to PROTECT people from Demonic influence. They can make a weapon with a power bonus equal to their Corporeal forces, and a precision bonus equal to their celstial forces out of ANYTHING. Example: Trapped in a little girls room, Simon, an angel of justice, picks up a Cabbage Patch doll and throws it at the Demon pursuer. The result: The demon has hole in his head (the size of which is large enough to pass a bus through)and his now dead vessel flops to the floor. Just one of those things, you know? Kyriotates: The Masters of Multiplicity can occupy 1 host for each force they have. This is, however limited to those who pursue justice in everyday life, weather they know it or not... If you ever see 9 cops running at you, speaking in unison, and generally scaring the crap out of you cause they sound like Borg, its one of these Kyroites. Note: other hosts act as normal rules, thus if a Kyroite wanted to occupy 3 cops, a lawyer, and a wrestler with 5 forces, he could occupy the cops without a problem. The Wrestler is occupied as normal. Also, this 1 force rule applies only to HUMANS so no occupying police dogs. Victims can resist with a will roll. Mercurians: The friends of man are charged with defending mortals from unjust persecution and punishment. That is, They are attourneys (and are also the most mocked angels in heaven). They acquire no dissonance if they kill a human, but this only works if that human was attempting to harm the human he was defending. Servitor Attunements: Seek the Guilty: With the expenditure of a single point of essence, the angel instantly becomes attuned to a subject (much like the Celestial song of Attraction). The Angel must have some possession of that person, if the person itself is not available, and the Attunment lasts corporeal force days for EACH Essence used to power the attunement. (Thus a 3-force angel who expends 2 essence is attuned to the subject for 6 days) Ironic Justice: Who said angels don't have fun? With this attunement, the angel can, with a single essence point, inflict a discord/3 effect of any type on a person who has recently been unjust in some way. The angel need not be attuned to the target, and the target may resist with a will roll. The trick is, the angel must choose some type of discord that is appropriate to the crime... Thus a man who sends his child to the basement for a week for not eating his vegetables will have gluttony/3. The player must choose the effect, and all players must vote on weather or not it is ironic enough. Servitors of Kobal and of Uziel tend to get along well sometimes... In the Name of: If the celestial is attuned to someone (using Seek the Guilty, above), he can spend 1 essence to mask any disturbance in the symphony. The 1 essence IS detectable as normal, but the normal distrubance wont be felt for Celestial force hours, and can only be used to trace the distrubance to its starting point. Masked Vigilante (Thanks to Nana Yaw Ofori): For the expendature of 2 essence, the angel may make his corporeal form unrecognzable as no more than "someone" to everyone in within celestial force yards. Example: "Yeah, that cop caught the burgler in my house! Chased him down and tackled him!" "What was his name?" "(pause) I have no idea..." "What did he look like?" "Errrrrrrrr.... I dont know." This effect is PERMANENT, but is applied instantly. Distinctions: Vassal of Justice: The Vassal has the power to ignite someone 's feelings of injustice about something, and can usually gain their support in anything they are doing. Note that the subject of this distinction will not do anything that goes against his nature. (No he won't open a jail cell, but he may be elsewhere why you bust that guy out). Friend of Justice: This level of distinction grants the angel the ability to know all laws, judgements, and regulations of a specific local. In essence, they become the perfect lawyers. Master of Justice: No action the angel does, in pursuit of Justice will cause a disturbance in the symphony! (GM note: Watch this power carefully! Uziel assigned it to only ONE angel so far.) Relations: He and Dominic work together, though they can't stand each other. This dislike does not pass on to their servitors, however, and the two groups are seen working together often. His servants are expected to be in excellent physical shape, thus they train with Michael and Laurence's servators often. Uziel is currently trying to smooth things out between Michael and Yves. Also, he is the ONLY thing preventing Dominic from sending out his favorite Malakim to kill Eli. Uziel recognizes that Eli is fulfilling his word better the way he is (Uziel spends a lot of time in the corporeal realm himself), but refuses to ally himself to keep up appearences with the Seraphim council. Likewise, Gabriel keeps in touch with her once right hand angel, despite Dominic's objections. Its not uncommon to find a party consisting of Gabriel, Dominic, and Uziel's servators. Uziel may indeed by the only thing preventing an angelic civil war (Ala the Prophecy). Allied: Dominic, Gabriel, Laurence, Michael, and Yves. Associated: Eli Hostile: Novalis, Janus Enemies: ANY Shedite, Kronos, Malphas, and Saminga (Uziel would go out of his way to hurt any servitor of Saminga, and spends a lot of time hunting down undead.) Basic Rites: - Defend an innocent from any kind of harm. - Deliver a guilty mortal to Corporeal justice. - Prevent a crime, any crime. - Contribute in some way to the cause of justice. Chance of Invocation: 6 (He spends a LOT of time in the corporeal realm) +1 A gavel or a statue of lady justice. +2 A court briefing. +3 For 1 hour after preventing a crime. +4 At any nationally known symbol of Justice (in any country) +5 For 1 hour after killing any Diabolical or creation thereof +6 After thwarting a Plan of Saminga or Kronos or destroying the Corporeal form of a shedite. Okay there ya go... Lots O work in this one. Hope you like it. If not let me know, I appreciate feedback, negative or positive. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:24:41 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Broken Hearts >>>Actually, it's not particularly inconsistent with canon, except the bit in the APG about breaking Hearts. And it will be the APG that loses that battle, I'm pretty sure.<<< As the person who wrote that canon in the APG, let me clarify what was meant, because I _was_ of course aware of the upcoming FotM plotline when I wrote it. The APG (p. 99) says an angel's Heart is "sacred and inviolable, even to his Superior." Note it does _not_ say that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a Superior to break a Heart -- it says it's FORBIDDEN. It's against the laws of the Seraphim Council. And there's no reason I can think of why any Archangel would EVER want to deliberately turn an angel into a demon. However, nowhere in the IPG, that I know of, does it say that Demon Princes can't break _their_Servitors' Hearts. So this "canon conflict" doesn't exist. It has never been stated in canon that a Superior _can't_ break a Heart, it's only been stated that they (in general) _won't_. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:24:45 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> FotM's supposed Flaws (Spoilers aplenty!) >>>In talking to Elizabeth last night, I learned that some material that was cut (I think because of the APG stuff on Malakim) supported this notion. This part of it probably should have been added into FotM.<<< It wasn't conflicts with the APG. There was an entire section I wrote for "Fall of the Malakim" that got cut -- Steve liked it, but said it conflicted too much with what had already been laid down for the storyline. However, I just received permission from Scott Haring to repost it elsewhere, since it is never going to appear in any canon material. So I will be posting "Dark Malakim" shortly.... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:34:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: IN> Daniel, Hutriel, & Final Judgement On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, Gryph Clarke wrote: > To ask a question of the group that I'm sure is answered somewhere that I've > overlooked...which IS the Malakim? Daniel or Hutriel? For some reason, I got the impression that Daniel was the Malakite. Probably because "Dan" is Hebrew for "Judge", and it seems like scanning for souls wrongfully sent to Hell is a Malakite thing to do. Hutriel, I would imagine, is there mainly to provide backup for Daniel (thought he might very well have gotten the Malakite Resonance courtesy of Yves.) On a related topic, I notice that BOTH of them are the Angels of Final Justice. Since the words are capitalized, I assume this is a Word, one that they both share. I find this intruiging, and would be interested to know canon's position on Words shared between Celestials on the same side. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:37:14 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: IN> Fall of the Malakim (Vauge spoilers only) I got FotM last Friday, and have read large chunks, but not all of it. But there's one *huge*, glaring difficulty for me: I am a GM with a Malak PC. I had to literally beat him off my copy with the main In Nomine rulebook. (So he's a 15 year old playing a Malak of Michael...) He's still whining that he wants to know if he can fall or not. I'm tempted to just let him read the adventure, and see if he sees something I don't. (heh) The problem is that I could probably do just that. The adventure "Fall of the Malakim" is not something that would work with my campaign other than as a rumor. I can adapt it to my campaign city, but I have clever players. They would be thoroughly pissed if there was nothing they could do about Max's difficulties. The central problem with "Fall..." is that does not look fun to play, entirely because it is too tightly scripted. It's more like a bad "Choose Your Own Adventure" book than a decent role playing adventure. Of course, I really liked "Feast of Blades," "The Demon Prince of Rock and Roll," and "The Demon of BFG's," so my tastes may be suspect. Mark (I see you, and raise two cents...) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 19:45:04 -0500 From: The Bard Subject: IN> angel atvantage I have never liked the angle atvantage but reading heavan and hell I am pushed over the edge. It seems evan at there own home thay can't relaxe. 1. angels are watching the gates of heavan as well as hell. 2. Demons entering heavan sound an alarm in hell angels sound nothing. 3. Angels in hell don't get sucked back to heavan after spending just a few hours downs there. Heck one could evan live down there if thay wated two. If I was saten the first thing I would do is move those two lugs at the front door or cut a deal and put some demons at the gates of heaven. (not combat wise just to keep things fair) as a player of demons and a GM with many demons Chars. The disatvantages (in short) suck. It is like SJgames doesn't want you to play demons. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:29:05 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Broken Hearts David Edelstein wrote: > The APG (p. 99) says an angel's Heart is "sacred and inviolable, even to > his Superior." > > Note it does _not_ say that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a Superior to break a > Heart -- it says it's FORBIDDEN. It's against the laws of the Seraphim > Council. And there's no reason I can think of why any Archangel would EVER > want to deliberately turn an angel into a demon. True. But it was the sentence before that that was the focus of my complaints. Try reconciling, "Only the angel's own actions can cause the final destruction of his Heart," with the events of FotM. It _is_ in the context of an angel's relationship with his Superior, but it seems pretty all inclusive to me. > However, nowhere in the IPG, that I know of, does it say that Demon Princes > can't break _their_Servitors' Hearts. Actually, quite the opposite is said. Leading me to conclude that angelic Hearts are different beasts than infernal Hearts. This is why I formed the opinion (still held, by the way) that an angelic Heart is the symbolic representation of an angel's relationship with God. So, as far as I'm concerned, the sentence I quote above that you wrote, is the right answer. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:34:30 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Traps (Re: Dissonance question) Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > "I want this Lilim to understand selflessness, to know what it's > like to hear the true Symphony, to feel love." > > And what do you do? It's completely within your power (maybe?) to > change yourself, to break your brain and try very hard to fulfill > this Need (which may be a 5 or 6, even). You could get there, > you could do it. This is not true, if you rely on a tight reading of the rules. The level of a Need is determined by how difficult it would be for the resonated to fulfill, not the resonator. And, barring some attunements I've missed, it isn't possible for the angel to fulfill this Need, so it falls off the chart. Fortunately, since I like the idea of this situation happening (particularly to a Lilim with the Generous Discord), I'm prepared to toss the rules out when the situation really calls for it. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:35:39 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> over page counts Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > No reason at all. Except that if it's going into a future supplement, > it probably won't go online first. (I do have some notions as to > where those 150 words might go, yes. I am saving them for that.) Promises, promises... What kind of Geas am I going to be hit with if you DO fulfill this Need? J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:43:04 -0400 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> _Fall of the Malakim_ At 05:04 PM -0400 08/11/1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >The Geas is probably "Destroy this Heart as soon as you can." (It will >take her time to sneak into the catacombs without getting stopped.) >It's only a Geas/5 (she's not necessarily aware *whose* Heart it is, >and Max isn't necessarily a "friend." Remember, Dream is 'coldly >neutral' to Stone, normally, and Max is loony.). [Mind, you can >do what else you want with those, but I *did* try to make sure that >it fit in with the Geases rules when I gave Mira her stats...] > I'm sorry, but that doesn't quite wash. Even among Servitors whose Archangels are almost openly hostile to one another, that's a supremely major thing for an Angel to do to another, I'd put that off the scale on the Bright Lilim Geas meter myself. And there really doesn't seem to be anything about Mira herself that enabled her to do what supposedly even a Superior could not. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 04:10:34 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Traps (Re: Dissonance question) At 20:02 13/08/98 -0400, you wrote: >tly. > >From Em, I've gotten the personal notion that Lilim *like* fulfilling >Needs, that the first thing they think of, when seeing a Need, is >"How can I make this happen?" And combine this with the desire for >a selfless Lilim... > >It's a trap. A very cunning trap. You walk into it, and >you don't *want* to walk out. > What if it was a demon-with-attitude and it /needed/ to get the lilim to do something without having to pay a geas for it? :) (Maybe to add a notch to its bedpost or boast to its friends or something) jo (Don't laugh. I had a War balseraph NPC whose main ambition in life was to sleep with a lilim without having to pay, because it would have been so good for his rep.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:19:30 -0500 From: Matt Lee Subject: IN> Cycle Books and Stuff (*No* Spoilers) Hi, I've been subscribed to this list for a few days now, lurking. I bought my demonic hardcover In Nomine rulebook at GenCon this year and have been converting friends left and right and hopefully will be GMing a game soon, in which I plan to run the whole Revelations cycle (I'm going to buy a small chunk of the available books soon including at least the first 2 of the cycle though some of these posts are making me wary of the APG). Anyways, I've been reading the spoilers since I'll eventually be GMing FotM (though I'm not going to say any here this is more just my opinion on cycle books). So I thought i'd throw in my opinion on the concept of the cycle books: I saw these books described on the SJGames website and at GenCon and I thought WOW! This is NEAT! I see the problem w/sales of adventures as I almost never buy lone adventures for games. Sure they're a bit cheaper than a sourcebook, but not cheap enough. I've maybe bought 1 packaged adventure which I haven't run yet. Anyways, I think throwing in a bit of everything like that, Superiors, a location, a little bit of something else like Undead, etc. I thought this was one of the coolest Ideas I'd seen in awhile, PLUS! They have an adventure which advances the world. Now, not to name systems but some systems have lots of adventures and sourcebooks and to know which ones are actually in the direct stream of advancing the setting, is hard to decipher sometimes, and so next thing you know you're hearing its now the year 2060 and they're replacing your Seattle sourcebook which you haven't even used yet!(oops! Did I kinda givaway the system I was talking about there? Well, anyways, back to In Nomine) So my point being, I like the idea of saying "This series fits together and advances our setting" and also at the same time giving some new superiors and expanding on others (a Superior book isnt the worst idea but with or w/o it these books make sure you still get new superiors a little bit at a time and don't have to a) wait for a big superior book or b) stop getting new superiors after that book's done) and as for the settings, just another part of the fun, a Heaven and Hell book, were it just on Heaven and Hell, I probably wouldn't have much use for right now. My character are gonna be on Earth and not have a lot to do up there or down there for a bit so, eventually i'd get it, but if it has an adventure in it, and some superiors and neat stuff, I'd really feel I was gettin the most for my money, plus the adventure gives you a headstart on how to make good use of the setting. So to sum this up, I've only had a peek at the cycle books but I think the concept is great and definitely beats overly specialized books. If page restrictions get too much in the future, wouldn't it be possible for some cycle books to be bigger than others? If not, I think some specialized books (tethers, songs, etc) make sense, and the cycle books give a great combination of useful material. By the way, for anyone who's actually read through all this ranting, like I said I'm gonna buy a bunch of books. I'm definitely gonna get the GM screen and Night Music, if I was to get 2-3 other books, (I'll probably get Liber Reliquarum too) I wanted to ask what would some top recommendations be for someone who's going to be starting GMing it soon and who'll be starting off w/original stuff and heading into the Revelations cycle soon afterwards? I know there arent _that_ many books to choose from yet but thanks for any sortof tips as to what anyone thinks the most useful stuff is. I suppose getting the Revelations cycle in order is a good idea? Thanks Matt Lee mattlee@execpc.com http://www.execpc.com/~mattlee/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #915 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.