From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Aug 18 14:12:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA10181 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 14:12:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA09470 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 14:04:16 -0500 Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 14:04:16 -0500 Message-Id: <199808181904.OAA09470@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #922 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, August 18 1998 Volume 01 : Number 922 In this digest: Re: IN> Stupid Lilim tricks (was Re: IN> Dissonance question) Re: IN> Dark Malakim (long!) Re: IN> Is In Nomine In Trouble IN> Distance on the Celestial Plane IN> Dark Malakim (long!) IN> Malakim at the Gates of Hell IN> Friends and Enemies Re: IN> Is In Nomine In Trouble Re: IN> Distance on the Celestial Plane Re: IN> Dark Malakim (long!) IN> Sphinx again (was Re: Fall of the Malakim. (no spoilers here!) Re: IN> Superiors book IN> The Janus Connection Re: IN> Sphinx again (was Re: Fall of the Malakim. (no spoilers here!) Re: IN> A few revised band attunements Re: IN> A few revised band attunements Re: IN> A few revised band attunements Re: IN> Distance on the Celestial Plane Re: IN> Stupid Lilim tricks (was Re: IN> Dissonance question) IN> INC Re: IN> INC Re: IN> Tsarien's dissonance conditions Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Re: IN> Distance on the Celestial Plane Re: IN> Is In Nomine In Trouble Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Re: IN> Is In Nomine In Trouble Re: IN> Is In Nomine In Trouble Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #917 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 17:50:54 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Stupid Lilim tricks (was Re: IN> Dissonance question) Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: > > So a decent sized > >Geas is worth far more in blackmail than it could possibly be to actually > >use, no? > > Not really. For one thing, this won't work on Mundane Humans! > > Imagine some woman who saved your life from a fire three years ago, calls > you up and says, "Help me rob a jewelry store, or I'll make you kill your > wife." You'd think she was crazy, wouldn't you? You know nothing about > "real" Angels or Demons, you have no idea a that she's a Lilim, or that one > could make you do such a thing.. So you will call her bluff, because you > don't believe she can make you do what she wants you to. Even if she's > invoked several Geasa on you, it's still possible that you won't know that > she's capable of this; you may believe that succumbing to her requests was > your idea! I've taken the tack that anyone under a hook, when confronted by the Lilim that owns it, gets a very strong feeling that the Lilim is telling the truth. In fact, I give the victim that feeling when the Hook goes in. Somehow they know, even if they try to forget the fact, that somewhere out there, they own someone a big favor. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:03:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Dark Malakim (long!) Brilliant. I'd use it in my campaign, but I have a player on the list who no doubt has read this by now. Still, I'll squirrel it away for later use. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:41:58 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Is In Nomine In Trouble At 3:13 PM -0400 8/15/98, Gregory Littmann wrote: > I read about the Black Friday at SJG and all the lay-offs. I've been >told that GURPS is going to be just fine. Anyone heard anything about In >Nomine? Well, I'm still around... I don't know, myself, what it will mean for future releases. Probably that SJ Games will be concentrating on the types of books that sell the best. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 08:46:59 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: IN> Distance on the Celestial Plane G'day. I was flicking through Heaven & Hell last night, and I came across the section on Disturbance (p. 57). Folks, something's broken here. Distances don't apply in the Celestial Plane, we all know that (H&H, p.51). So how does Disturbance propagate, given the fact that p. 57 says that Essence & Songs still cause it? And even if that did make sense, what kind of information would a successful Perception roll give you? The Marches covered this one - the Disturbance section there breaks it down into divisions in the Marches (a dreamscape, the Far Marches etc) rather than feet & yards. What kind of division would make sense on the Celestial Plane? Actually, while I'm on the hobby horse, how the heck do ranges make sense in either Plane? I mean, a lot of Songs of all three types have ranges, and would be useful in the Ethereal or Celestial Planes. How do you make sense of that when distance is meaningless? Any ideas? (And Elizabeth, I know it's not your fault...) - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia Know your Dope Fiend! Your life may depend on it! You may not be able to see his eyes because of T-Shades, but his knuckles will be white from inner tension, and his pants will be crusted with semen from constantly jacking off when he can't find a rape victim. He will stagger and babble when questioned. He will not respect your badge. The Dope Fiend fears nothing. HUNTER S. THOMPSON, from "Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:58:04 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Dark Malakim (long!) >>>Very, very cool. Personally, these Dark Malakim sound far more interesting than Fallen Malakim.<<< Thanks. >>>Is this the only place they will ever posted, or are you going to put them on a web page somewhere?<<< I'll probably get around to posting them on my In Nomine page eventually. (I haven't had time to update it in a while.) Em can also put it on the INC if she wishes (I might even get around to HTML'ing it for her). - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:58:08 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Malakim at the Gates of Hell >>>Maybe in your game but I like the idea and will use it in my game.<<< Splendid. I guess I have to go back to adding the "This Is My Opinion And You Can Do Anything You Want In Your Campaign" disclaimer to every post again. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:58:00 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Friends and Enemies >>>Really? Would Dom and As REALLY consider eachother enemies?<<< Of course. Enemies that can occasionally cooperate when it's in their mutual interest (just like the US and the USSR sometimes cooperated in trying to control other wayward countries), but they're still diametrically opposed. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:05:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Is In Nomine In Trouble > At 3:13 PM -0400 8/15/98, Gregory Littmann wrote: > > I read about the Black Friday at SJG and all the lay-offs. I've been > >told that GURPS is going to be just fine. Anyone heard anything about In > >Nomine?> > Well, I'm still around... Which is a good thing! :) > > I don't know, myself, what it will mean for future releases. Probably > that SJ Games will be concentrating on the types of books that sell the > best. > Do you have any idea of what types of books *do* sell the best? Greg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:17:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Knop Subject: Re: IN> Distance on the Celestial Plane > Actually, while I'm on the hobby horse, how the heck do ranges make > sense in either Plane? I mean, a lot of Songs of all three types have > ranges, and would be useful in the Ethereal or Celestial Planes. How do > you make sense of that when distance is meaningless? Any ideas? (And > Elizabeth, I know it's not your fault...) I would say, all of this should be based on GM's whim, who will in turn base it on his personal idea of how philosophically close different "places" in Heaven and Hell are to each other. This could change with time, depending on what's going on with each Superior and each place in the celestial plane. This, at least, gives GM's a lot of weasel room to explain away conflicting off the cuff decisions. In truth, though, I would say that given that distances are meaningless in Heaven and Hell, the GM should make the decision of ranges and such based on plot, theme, poetical correctness, etc. - -Rob === Rob Knop === rknop@crl.com ==== http://www.wco.com/~rknop === Amiga PGP information at http://www.wco.com/~rknop/amiga_pgp Visit the Dramatic Exchange at http://www.dramex.org/ ================================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:31:27 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Dark Malakim (long!) > I'll probably get around to posting them on my In Nomine page eventually. > (I haven't had time to update it in a while.) Em can also put it on the INC > if she wishes (I might even get around to HTML'ing it for her). It's sitting on THE PILE, so therefore it will go up eventually. (Actually, I rather liked this writeup.) If it gets HTMLed, it shows up faster. If it's in clear text, it goes into my folder, and I'll move it over as I can. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 02:30:41 +0100 From: Julian Breen Subject: IN> Sphinx again (was Re: Fall of the Malakim. (no spoilers here!) Jo wrote: >I have a few queries on this section, myself. > >1. Illustrations showed the sphinx and stonehenge, although there weren't >mentioned in the text. Is this supposed to imply that they are connected to >David directly (ie. tethers) or just as examples of big things that are >made of stone? > Hmmm. I don't see the sphinx as being a tether, although I have been thinking about various connections that it might have to David. Its got to have some kind of a tie in with Magog and '...his fortress beneath the Sahara sands...', though. IRL There is a school of thought that the sphinx, rather than being a statue of a guardian is instead a _memorial_ to great cataclysms (floods?) that once rocked the world during the last age of Leo (c.10,900 - 8,800 B.C.) destroying traces of an elder culture. Might this have been the first of more than one Deluge in the earth's history, the sinking of Atlantis - terran home of the Grigori and/or the Nephilim? Perhaps surviving Grigori, who migrated toward Egypt, built the sphinx as a memorial to their deceased number and as a testament to Heaven's (David's) Wrath? (Secretly burying beneath it all record of Atlantis' existance, including 'living crystal' reliquaries that David had once granted to them.) On the other hand, it could have been actual servants of David that built it, and used it as an ancient Warehouse 23(tm) to store all Atlantean 'evidence'. Kind of makes sense to me. Magog was operating from a base once connected with his former AA. Perhaps utilising items of power there? Maybe this was enough to help him hold out as long as he did. I can see a plot seed here with one or more militant AA's desiring the onset of Armageddon enlisting the aid of Litheroy to reveal an Atlantean secret history (thus confirming man's true origins). It would be up to the PCs, especially servants of destiny to convince him 'Not Yet', or to spin-doctor a story that the Atlanteans were merely advanced ancestors rather than incarnate angels. (Heck, Litheroy's probably been dropping subtle clues to investigative mortals down the years anyhow. ;) ) As for stonehenge, well, I'd like to go into more detail... but there's this guy at my door, in a fez, and... - -- Julian ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 22:53:22 -0500 From: "Phaelin" Subject: Re: IN> Superiors book }snip discussion of rules for Superiors{ >But if anyone wants a copy of it and either is new to the list or deleted their old In Nomine >posts, then let me know and I'll send ya a copy of it. > >Drake > Well, I'm new to the list and would *love* a copy of the work, if it's not too much trouble..... Phaelin Demon of Replies ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 00:41:54 EDT From: Akumsa@aol.com Subject: IN> The Janus Connection I have the main book, so if this is explained further in APG or IPG or in any other book, I apologize. The Janus Connection "... there has to be a reason that Valefor's and Janus's Servitors resemble each other so much.... If not physically, then conceptually..." I have 2 possible explanations: 1) Valefor and Janus are brothers: In much the same way Haagenti and Kobal are brothers. But unlike the Haag and Kobal, Janus was Valefor's brother before he fell. The two were angels, each applying for the Word of Wind. Janus won for one reason or another, But Valefor still wished to serve the word of Wind... hence, he was a high ranking member of Janus's servitors, 2nd only to the Word bearer himself. When lucifer began recruiting pople, it was a simple matter for him to convince Valefor to switch sides. In return for his help, Lucifer promised him he would have the same power as Janus. Valefor probably took this to mean he would have the word of Wind. Lucifer, however, was thinking more of Janus's OTHER job, that of causing mayhem. Who better than to cause mayhem on earth then one of the Angels assigned to do it in the first place? Lucifer Kept his promise, and granted Valefor the powers that Janus had, to the letter. But being a Demon now ment that Valefor couldnt have the Word of Wind. He choose theft instead, as it was the kind of thing he did anyway. In time, Valefor began to consider Janus weak, and adapted the powers he was granted for his own use. OKAY, NOW FOR THE MORE FUN IDEA: 1) Janus and Valefor are the SAME being. Uh-oh! This automatically raises a lot of questions, so I'll try this explanation and answer as many as I can... - One is a Demon, the Other an Angel, Can they cross sides constantly? - Why not? The exact powers of the ArchAngels are never actually defined. Its concevable that if they have the power to make things outcast, they can also force things to fall. (Re: Automatically brings up the question of an Angels HEART. Its says in the book a Superior cannot BREAK it, but it never says they cant CORRUPT it.) Why do such a thing? Good question... Here is a possible answer: To trick the Diabolicals into thinking that this angel has joined thier side. Its also concieveable that Janus can MASK an Angels divine nature, so that he/she appears to be fallen. This is more likely then the first idea, though possibly be harder to accomplish. Remember, that Valefor is a Calabite, and Janus is an Ofanite. They are essentially the same chior. - Wouldn't someone know? -Not if youre playing both sides against the middle, as it were. Consider: Janus is HARD to summon, and when he appears, he only appears without shape or substance. Wind to be precise. Valefor is easier to summon, but who'd notice a Calabite with a huge amount of Discord? Since all Calabites start with discord (Except Kronos's Calabim), they would pay no attention. - Youre still missing out on Dominic, Asmodeous, and Lucifer... -Point, but Dominic is NOT infallible. He is observant, but not omnipotent. He didnt see Eli's madness coming, he WONT acknowlage that Gabriel was doing her job when she recited the Quoran (Did I spell that right?), and HE grumbles constantly about Novalis, despite the fact she is doing her duty. Not to mention that he has OTHER angels to track down, as well as the fact he PERSONALLY visits each servitor once a week. Perhaps he HAS noticed something, but merely dismisses it as Janus doing his job? (Besides, it has been intimated that Dominic may be working for the other side anyhoo) -Asmodeous and Lucifer. Who says they dont know? Lucifer especially. His attitude at any time is quirky, but lets just assume for a moment he DOES know. Why would he stop it? It even says in the book: "... But lucifer sees Valefor as a useful tool..." He s too valauable to hell to abolish for that reason. Also its useful to have a heads up on what the Seraphim council is voting on. You get: Ideas on whats going on in heaven, who is in trouble, why, ect. With Janus/Valefor jumping from side to side, both sides of the coin benefit. -Even so, thier respective actions drive each other away from thier respective natures. -Not a chance, both groups of servitors have the SAME dissonance conditions, and opposite bands/chiors have the same powers. They both do the same thing, Valefor is just focused on what he does, Jauns is more diverse. Nothing that Valefor's servitor attunments themselves do causes distrubances in the Symphony, and thier Distinctions are generally harmless as well. Rites can be easily interchanged with no outward signs of anything noticeable. Janus/Valefor both have 'generic' powers, which can be used by either side... (The exception to this is the Attunment of the Malakim... I dunno about that one as I dont have FotM) Okay all, if I missed a question, toss it at me... And as always, I am open to criticism. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 07:23:11 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Sphinx again (was Re: Fall of the Malakim. (no spoilers here!) At 02:30 18/08/98 +0100, you wrote: > > >As for stonehenge, well, I'd like to go into more detail... Hey, go for it! ;) jo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 07:50:05 +0100 (BST) From: Warsinger Subject: Re: IN> A few revised band attunements On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Pee Kitty wrote: > On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Warsinger wrote: > > > > Some of them do, and some of them pick out souls on earth for Judgement. I > > > don't like the existing attunement, and don't really see what the Song of > > > Possession has to do with Habbalah or Death at all, but I don't know what > > > to give them instead. Automatic detection of people who like killing? Or > > > should I give that to Lilim of Death? > > > > Yes, I was wondering about the connection between the Song of Possession > > and Habbelah of Death, but I just assumed I was missing something obvious. > > It *kinda* makes sense to me. It's one soul displacing another one and > stealing their meat shell, not unlike how ghosts are supposed to. A very > tenuous link, to be sure... But why should Habbelah get that ability? Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 04:10:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> A few revised band attunements On Tue, 18 Aug 1998, Warsinger wrote: > On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Pee Kitty wrote: > > > On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Warsinger wrote: > > > > > > Some of them do, and some of them pick out souls on earth for Judgement. I > > > > don't like the existing attunement, and don't really see what the Song of > > > > Possession has to do with Habbalah or Death at all, but I don't know what > > > > to give them instead. Automatic detection of people who like killing? Or > > > > should I give that to Lilim of Death? > > > > > > Yes, I was wondering about the connection between the Song of Possession > > > and Habbelah of Death, but I just assumed I was missing something obvious. > > > > It *kinda* makes sense to me. It's one soul displacing another one and > > stealing their meat shell, not unlike how ghosts are supposed to. A very > > tenuous link, to be sure... > > But why should Habbelah get that ability? Because they're puppet masters who control other people. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! ::: Thinking about a Tampa Bay Devival in the future - email me! ::: Or go to http://www.cris.com/~pkitty (hell, go there anyways!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 11:04:46 +0100 (BST) From: Warsinger Subject: Re: IN> A few revised band attunements On Tue, 18 Aug 1998, Pee Kitty wrote: > > But why should Habbelah get that ability? > > Because they're puppet masters who control other people. > I knew I was missing something obvious. Thanks. "Doh" Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:22:03 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Distance on the Celestial Plane On Mon, Aug 17, 1998 at 04:17:19PM -0700, Robert Knop wrote: > > Actually, while I'm on the hobby horse, how the heck do ranges make > > sense in either Plane? I mean, a lot of Songs of all three types have > > ranges, and would be useful in the Ethereal or Celestial Planes. How do > > you make sense of that when distance is meaningless? Any ideas? (And > > Elizabeth, I know it's not your fault...) > My personal impression is that combat is kind of like Elite (that makes me feel old, and I'm only 20). When you're fighting, etc., it takes place in a kind of space that is pretty much identical to Corporeal space. When you're going somewhere, it's like the Ofanite four miles a minute thing. You can move really quickly in the Celestial realms, but once you actually have to do something, it becomes more like Earth. This makes intuitive and gameplay sense to me. This even allows pitched battles to take place, so that you don't get the effect of the first side to kill an opponent's champion killing all the opponent's champions, because there are so many other people in the way, and you have to deal with all of them. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:37:16 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Stupid Lilim tricks (was Re: IN> Dissonance question) On Mon, Aug 17, 1998 at 11:29:07AM -0500, Elizabeth Bartley wrote: > > It's evil, but then all the attunements I've come up with for Treachery > > are evil. And yes, I realise that Lilith will have problems with the new > > Prince, even if he does off Saminga and install someone with better dress > > sense. > > Not just Lilith. The non-Treachery Lilim would have a real problem with > this because this Attunement could theoretically be given to any Lilim. > This would reduce the reliability of *all* Lilim, with correspondingly > negative results on what jobs people are interested in hiring Lilim for, > the price they can charge in a situation where you need someone reliable, > the likelihood that they can buy their way out of a nasty situation by > promising a future favor, and so on. > If it's not known to be an attunement (and the DP of Treachery won't give attunements to Servitors of other Princes unless he wants them wasted; he'll give other stuff instead), but merely that you can go to the DP of Treachery to get rid of a Geas you don't want, and have to pay for _that_, then it'll be pretty much assumed that only Servitors of Treachery will do so. And who'll admit to being a Servitor of Treachery? And if someone does admit to it, what are the odds that it's a Servitor of Factions or the Game posing as one? And even if that person is provably a Servitor of Treachery, what are the odds that they aren't also working for Factions or the Game? Do you want to be seen messing with Asmodeus' agents? > Any Lilim known to have this attunement (Lilim of Treachery and any other > Lilim to whom it is granted) can pretty well be guaranteed that her > sisters will backstab her at every opportunity. Since Lilim ordinarily > get along pretty well, that's a high price to pay. > This is the price of being known to be a Servitor of Treachery in general, though I'll admit it's worse for Lilim. That's the balance for having such evil powers. There are ways to get around this danger, the simplest of which is not to let it be known that you serve Treachery in the first place. (And I'm thinking of a Servitor attunement that lets you impersonate a Demon of the same Band, including Vessels if they're the same type. And there's always the Impudite of Treachery attunement.) The word has gotten 'round that the DP of Treachery appers to be good at removing Geasa, but I don't think the exact nature of the attunement is known except to those who possess it. > Since the Lilim are some of Lilith's power base, it hurts her as well -- > and it probably offends her. She won't be pleased with any of her > Daughters who Bind to Treachery. > Absolutely. But so long as it's only Lilith's displeasure, and not an attempt by her to remove the new DP, I reckon he'll cope. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:29:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: IN> INC Hey - Well, I'm down to 99 articles that need to be put up, and today was Adventure Seed day. I picked out the 8 I most remembered when I was HTMLing them, including David Edelstein's huge campaign "Forests of the Night" and Beth's "Third Avatar", so all of it available now. Huzzah! So go read them. Now. Right now. This is your geas speaking. :) I'm thinking that theme days might work for a while until I cut down on the number of articles to go up. In the mean time, in a fit of absolute incredible madness, I decided that I hated the INC page I had spent so much time on and built one that just looks better in less time. I changed link colors, unrolled the drop down box, made the font bigger, and lots of other cool stuff. It's all very bright and colorful. I stuck a link on top of the INC that says "New and improved..." I caught a hatful of bugs when I was doing 'tour of browsers' this morning, but there might be one or two left. So, if people could look at it and tell me if you love it or hate it more then the current, I'd love you all forever. Send mail to me at any one of my fifteen accounts, but here (zenith@umich.edu) or there (zenith@pyramid.sjgames.com) is fine. I _am_ working on a search engine that just indexes /in-nomine/articles, but it's giving me some serious fits, so that's still a week or so away, at best. I know it's too big to just pick through now.... - - Em, Bal of the Game, Demon of Playing IN Backwards, in service to Nitpicking (but only on Tuesdays) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 08:11:57 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> INC On Tue, 18 Aug 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: [snip] > In the mean time, in a fit of absolute incredible madness, I decided that > I hated the INC page I had spent so much time on and built one that just > looks better in less time. I changed link colors, unrolled the drop down > box, made the font bigger, and lots of other cool stuff. It's all very > bright and colorful. I stuck a link on top of the INC that says "New and > improved..." I caught a hatful of bugs when I was doing 'tour of > browsers' this morning, but there might be one or two left. So, if people > could look at it and tell me if you love it or hate it more then the > current, I'd love you all forever. Send mail to me at any one of my > fifteen accounts, but here (zenith@umich.edu) or there > (zenith@pyramid.sjgames.com) is fine. [snip] it looks wonderful, Em =) and in case anyone's wondering why i'm posting this to the list, it's to encourage y'all to go over to the new index @ http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/new_index.html-- you'll be happy you did! :) -=|horsefly|=- "Back off, preacher, I don't care if it's Sunday. I ain't no angel, but I never felt better!" --FREEDOM, Alice Cooper ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 11:08:42 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Tsarien's dissonance conditions At 2:50 PM -0400 8/16/98, Peter Martin wrote: >Sorry I forgot to post these > >Servitors of Tsarien Gain dissonance if they any time they lose a >contest or a fight with someone. As a result, these angels tend to >become very specialized in a hurry. They also gain dissonance if they >cheat in order to attain victory. (Note that posessing an unfair >advantage does not constitute cheating unless it breaks the rules of >engagement somehow. Gary Kasparov can easily beat a seven year old at >chess, but the contest can hardly be called fair.) There are problems with this dissonance condition; namely it leads to Angels who don't learn any competitive skills, and never enter contests or fights. The only time most of them would enter into a contest of any type, would be if they possessed an incredible advantage over their opponents. They won't enter fights if there's a possibility of loss. "I won't attack that lion to save your little boy, ma'am, cause then I might lose, and I can't have that." Self-sacrifice is out the window; you won't see Servitors of Victory in a war unless you can guarantee No Casualties. (Sure, we won the war, but a lot of Victors lost individual fights.) Given sufficient time, I could see this developing into a reputation for bullying and cowardice. Finally, if it's Dissonant to lose, how are Servitors of Victory supposed to learn the skills they wish to specialize at? Take the example of a newly-created Reliever of Victory. He want to become an excellent Chess player. Who's going to teach him? None of the Servitors of Victory comparable to his skill, they 're not going to want to lose. And the ones who will want to play against him will be Kasparov-level, so he'll lose all the time. He'll rack up incredible amounts of Dissonance, and either quit, or be picked off by the Divine Inquisition. How about this for a Dissonance condition, instead: It is Dissonant for a Servitor of Victory to allow a contest or fight he participates in to end without a winner. Ties must be broken, stalemates replayed, until someone wins. It is Dissonant for a Servitor of Victory to Forfeit a contest; regardless of reason or opponent; servitors of Victory play to win. Finally, it is Dissonant to cheat to obtain victory. Arguments don't count as contests for the purposes of these conditions; otherwise, it would be difficult to get disagreeing Victors to do /anything/. ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Trudy, Impudite Captain of Gluttony, the Demon of Popcorn nofori@pop3.utoledo.edu | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:27:41 +0100 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Resonance On Thu 13 August Eeyore wrote: >I, too, like the idea of Lilim not being able to read needs, though >mostly from a role-playing rather than a game mechanics perspective. It >does mean, though, that a number of the Choir Attunements need to be >reworked. The Lilim of Lust attunement, for instance, is meaningless if >Lilim can't read Needs. Others provide a bonus for activating the hook, >Belial's and Kronos' for instance. > I *think* that the descriptions within the IPG supersede the current errata, mainly because it ain't that current in this regard. So, a Lilim's relevant forces are _subtracted_ from the Will rolls of the victim (along with the geas level) to resist, rather than giving a bonus to activate a hook in the first place. So the attunements of Belial and Kronos _wouldn't_ need altering. :) PKitty gave us an Andrealphus variant, so that only leaves Furfur and Mammon as the remaining canon princes whose Lilim need tweaking, and you can treat them the same as Belial's and Kronos' tempters. - -- Julian jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 14:06:08 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Distance on the Celestial Plane At 8:46 AM +1000 8/18/98, Patrick O'Duffy wrote: >G'day. > I was flicking through Heaven & Hell last night, and I came across >the section on Disturbance (p. 57). Folks, something's broken here. > > Distances don't apply in the Celestial Plane, we all know that (H&H, >p.51). So how does Disturbance propagate, given the fact that p. 57 >says that Essence & Songs still cause it? And even if that did make >sense, what kind of information would a successful Perception roll give >you? Guestimated distances (things like, "Thattaway, close by!") and the non-distance-related information. > The Marches covered this one - the Disturbance section there breaks it >down into divisions in the Marches (a dreamscape, the Far Marches etc) >rather than feet & yards. What kind of division would make sense on the >Celestial Plane? I think I'd handle this in one (or both) of two ways: Count "virtual distance" -- it may not be physical distance, but it's close enough for celestial work. Figure that each Cathedral/Principality is like an ethereal Domain. (Also, I figure you *can* use the Celestial Song of Motion -- I don't think it states it explicitly, but I know that there was some mention about it being one of the teleport mechanisms, which the GM got to decide details on itself.) > Actually, while I'm on the hobby horse, how the heck do ranges make >sense in either Plane? I mean, a lot of Songs of all three types have >ranges, and would be useful in the Ethereal or Celestial Planes. How do >you make sense of that when distance is meaningless? Any ideas? (And >Elizabeth, I know it's not your fault...) Heh. Thanks... I'd go above -- virtual distances. The GM makes a ruling and sticks with it. (Of course, if the Superior of the Domain you're in says, "No, you don't." then your Songs don't work...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 14:10:52 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Is In Nomine In Trouble At 7:05 PM -0400 8/17/98, Gregory Littmann wrote: >> At 3:13 PM -0400 8/15/98, Gregory Littmann wrote: >>>Anyone heard anything about In Nomine? > >> Well, I'm still around... > > Which is a good thing! :) That's nice to hear. O:> >> I don't know, myself, what it will mean for future releases. Probably >> that SJ Games will be concentrating on the types of books that sell the >> best. >> > Do you have any idea of what types of books *do* sell the best? I'm not sure -- some books haven't been out long enough for more than vague trends -- but the "core" books (Main book, Liber Reliquarum, APG, IPG) seem to be doing slightly better than the Cycle books. Some of this may be distribution artifacts (the distribution pipeline between the publishers and retail stores is, often, *BROKEN*, or so I've heard from various people), but some is probably what people tend to order. I'm drafting up some survey-type things to see if there's anything that will make Cyclebooks more attractives, and, well, there's Songbook up on Pyramid for playtest! ($15 for a year, folks, with some 2 new articles a *week*! Can't get much more value than that!) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 14:21:19 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Resonance At 5:27 PM +0100 8/18/98, Julian Breen wrote: >I *think* that the descriptions within the IPG supersede the current >errata, mainly because it ain't that current in this regard. So, a >Lilim's relevant forces are _subtracted_ from the Will rolls of the >victim (along with the geas level) to resist, rather than giving a bonus >to activate a hook in the first place. A bit of trivia -- originally Lilim had a two-part resonance like Impudites. They could Charm (like Impudites) and Geas (I don't know if they could Need-read at all!). This is what the "Charmed victim" stuff came from, and the "bonus to Geas" wording. When I was doing the IPG revisions, I figured that the intent was "The Lilim is more likely to successfully turn a hook into a Geas if [x] conditions are satisfied." So I simply made [x Forces] into an additional penalty to the victim's will roll. A possible exception is Vapula's -- if it's not clear, what I was figuring there is that they get is a Celestial Forces bonus to their Perception *and* as a penalty to the subject's Will. But I note that I change my mind a dozen times a second about whether that's too munchkin or not, so do whatever you want with it. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 98 13:11:28 CDT From: redneck@detnet.com (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Is In Nomine In Trouble >I'm drafting up some survey-type things to see if there's anything >that will make Cyclebooks more attractives, and, well, there's Songbook >up on Pyramid for playtest! > >($15 for a year, folks, with some 2 new articles a *week*! Can't >get much more value than that!) Well, I was hoping the article I submitted would pay for a subscription, but, well, I haven't heard anything about it... Redneck Kris Overstreet's email has changed... http://www.detnet.com/~redneck/ - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.wren-spot.com/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM http://www.wren-spot.com/wlp/milkmaid.html - The Magnificent Milkmaid ... respond to redneck@detnet.com please ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 14:36:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Is In Nomine In Trouble > Well, I was hoping the article I submitted would pay for a subscription, > but, well, I haven't heard anything about it... Several people (including myself, after being editted by Beth) have submitted articles, and almost NO ONE has heard anything back yet. Or if they have, we're gonna go over to their house and steal their stuff. I think that Pyramid submissions is much like submitting into the black hole of Calcutta. I know about staff turnovers and all that other good stuff, but it would be nice to get a 'we received it' form mail or SOMETHING. I sent off in hrm, June, I think, and haven't heard anything, period. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 14:44:08 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #917 Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > (Some Pyramid articles are more canonical than others. Consider them > that nice word I alwasy forget that means, "Fuzzy canon." The story > of Legion, for instance...) Was the word "deutero-canonical"? Or "apocryphal"? Earl ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #922 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.