From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Aug 29 09:37:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA31081 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 09:37:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id JAA16259 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 09:26:15 -0500 Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 09:26:15 -0500 Message-Id: <199808291426.JAA16259@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #932 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, August 29 1998 Volume 01 : Number 932 In this digest: IN> Wordhounds IN> Wordhounds, again Re: IN> FotM Kitty Nitpicks IN> Head-Hunters Re: IN> Wordhounds RE: IN> The Tsayadim Re: IN> FotM Nitpicks, Kitty, Spoiler Re: IN> Wordhounds Re: IN> FotM Nitpicks, Kitty, Spoiler Re: IN> Wordhounds, again Re: IN> Los Angeles Wordbounds Re: IN> Wordhounds Re: IN> Los Angeles Wordbounds ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 00:10:01 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Wordhounds I have to agree with Matthew -- the Wordhounds are a cute idea for a more tongue-in-cheek campaign, but totally inappropriate for anything remotely resembling canonical In Nomine. >>>Hell without assassins? -Especially- work-for-hire assassins?<<< Oh sure, there are assassins, even work-for-hire assassins. But a "Hire Us To Go Whack the Servitor of Any Other Prince" Assassin's _guild_? I don't think so. >>>Capricious? Not the Wordhounds. Little reasons aside, they're under the strict control of Lilith herself- they aren't going to take just any demon's case.<<< These guys would draw an unbelievable amount of fire down on Lilith. I don't think the geases she'd get could possibly be worth it. The fact that she personally sanctions any contract (an unlikely notion for Lilith anyway) would only make her that much more culpable, and that much more of a threat, in the eyes of the Princes whose Servitors get whacked. >>>How do -you- know that Lucifer didn't set up the demon to be taken down or threatened in order to prove its worth? Just because Lucifer gives a demon a Word, it does not follow that that demon has found favor in Lucifer's sight...<<< No, but the Wordhounds are going around presuming to second-guess Lucifer. Lucifer certainly would approve of a certain amount of evolution in action...if someone wants another demon's Word badly enough to try to take it from him, Lucifer will probably let him try, and might even give the upstart the Word he sought if he prevails. But a group that runs around killing Word-bounds because someone didn't like Lucifer's first choice? No, I can't see the Darkest of Dark Lords being particularly fond of that notion. >>>Furthermore, hiring help- and qualified help at that- shows an initiative and tactical realism all its own.<<< Minimal. >>>Yes... but let's suppose you don't want your involvement in the activity to be public knowledge?<<< So rather than cultivating your own force of very covert, very secretive trusted Servitors, you rely on a bunch of Servitors of Lilith to do dirty deeds for you and keep your secrets? >>>As Lilith's servants, the Wordhounds have a unique advantage; provided they can show they were under Lilith's orders to do something, they probably won't have to worry about the consequences of their actions.<<< Really? Asmodeus: "You just killed one of my most trusted Servitors." Wordhound: "Yes, but I was just following the orders of Lilith." Asmodeus: "I'm sorry to tell you this, but 'I was only following orders' doesn't work even in Hell...." And oh yes, Lilith would be taking more flack than she can possibly handle. She's not the most powerful being in Hell, and her Lilim are valuable but not indispensible. She maintains her position by being more useful than she is threatening. If she starts to be perceived as a threat, she becomes forced to play hardball to survive, and that's definitely not where she wants to be. And if she's sponsoring a bunch of assassins who will go around killing the Servitors of other Princes, she's definitely presenting herself as a threat. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 00:22:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Allen Subject: IN> Wordhounds, again > From: redneck@detnet.com (Redneck Gaijin) > >Mark Allen (mallen@byte-me.org) writes: > > Hell without assassins? -Especially- work-for-hire assassins? There's obviously been some kind of miscommunication. I don't believe I ever claimed that assassins simply *did not exist* in Hell, merely that they would certainly be exceptionally discreet in their work, although still bound to Piss Off the wrong Superior, and probably crushed like a Dixie Cup. > >little effort to squash this band like bug -- especially if they upset the > >balance of Hell so wildly with some capricious killing. > > Capricious? Not the Wordhounds. Little reasons aside, they're under the > strict control of Lilith herself- they aren't going to take just any demon's > case. I think you've chosen to modify the behavior of the Wordhounds "gang" as capricious. What I should have been more clear about is the *client's* whims. In the sense you're describing, an assassin is merely a political tool. Tools can be used as its owner sees fit. Obviously, not every demon in Hell is going to have the amount of Essence to "buy" an assassination, but for those who can. . . I'm also a bit curious why Asmodeus allows Lilith this seemingly personal band of killers to be under her thumb and availible for general hire. Perhaps you could expand on that. > >Thirdly, while deceit, assassination and outright evil has a place in being > >worthy of Lucifer's attention, I can't honestly believe he'd be willing to > >grant some other demon a Word he'd given out before. > I do believe he has. I can't recall the reference, though. Er, yeah... but not after hiring a bunch of paid killers to take out the opposition. > >they *actually* sought. Payment of Essence, to my concept of Lucifer, would > >seem a *poor* substitute for actually lying, backstabbing and stealing > >your way to the top of the heap. > How do you think one -gets- that much Essence in Hell? And if you're already that accomplished, why should you *spend* this Essence you've scrapped so hard to get just to knock off some lazy idiot Demon who's presumably fat, dumb and happy where he is? Forgive my sense of dubiousness. You've gone the first three-fourths of the race alone, and *now* you buy yourself an army? > Furthermore, hiring help- and qualified help at that- shows an initiative > and tactical realism all its own. If you say so. > >Four, Princes of Hell are not, generally, stupid. (Saminga even has some > >wits about him, in his own special way.) I would imagine each Prince has his > >own forces for doing what needs to be done to further their own ends. > > Yes... but let's suppose you don't want your involvement in the activity to > be public knowledge? And let's suppose you're betrayed to the Game by your friendly little mercs? Why should they take the rap for someone else's misdeeds? Heck, they were just following orders. Facing the Game in a small room with a single bulb and a bunch of grumpy Djinn does not a pleasant afternoon make. > As Lilith's servants, the Wordhounds have a unique advantage; provided they > can show they were under Lilith's orders to do something, they probably > won't have to worry about the consequences of their actions. So I guess Asmodeus cuts slack for the Servants of Freedom? > Lilith is not the most powerful being in Hell by a long shot, but her > control of the Lilim gives her enough leverage that it would require > something truly drastic, indeed, for -any- Demon Prince to strike at her or > hers. I have problems believing that Lilith would call in Favors from a Demon Prince to prevent harm to some careless assassin. Favors from another Prince, no doubt, are not used casually. > And in the meantime, the Wordhounds are useful... and -very- good at what > they do. Assume that I buy that there's a band of several amazingly competent Demon assassins. How come they're not contracted to the highest bidder already? Why screw around with the Rank and File? True Power lies with the Princes. Why hasn't Asmodeus sent them out constantly to hunt Renegades? > Some can... others don't have the power, or intelligence, or political allies. Which leads me to think they're not Word caliber material in the first place. > There are many, many, many assassins in Hell, few of which can be trusted. Precisely. Which is why I have a hard time believing that any Demon who could afford such a thing would actually think he was "buying" an assassination with no fear of reprisal. > Redneck (-no assassination in Hell??!?- What do you call Haagenti's rise to > power, involuntary digestion?) Just to make it clear: I do not suggest that assassination is absent from the political landscape of Hell. In fact, I think I imply the exact opposite. Secondly, Haagenti had two fairly important and disguinishing factors going for him: 1) Haagenti had a fairly powerful political ally: Kobal. I'd say a Demon Prince in your corner is going to help out quite a bit, especially given who Haagenti targeted. 2) Haagenti's opponents had a good deal of hubris, and paid for it. Classic evil overlord blunder, ala Austin Powers. AND, in any case, he still didn't buy a bunch of assassins to kill for him. At least, not in my Hell. :) (Your mileage will probably vary.) (It's not really his style, in the first place, and second, why pass up a good tasty meal?) - -- Mark Allen -- mallen@computer.org -- http://www.byte-me.org/~mallen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 08:59:00 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> FotM Kitty Nitpicks >I just got FotM today, and I am wondering, WHY did he kill her? She did her >part... If you mean Natalie, it was because they needed to clear all the celestials out of LA. She wasn't dead-dead. Just in trauma. (Why he couldn't just order her back to hell I dunno, I guess he has his bad days. Its good to be a demon prince). If you mean the kitty then... its the only real way to be sure no-one ever finds out your involvement. Can't ever be sure with Lilim. All it would take is a good offer, and one little geas. Besides which, he needed to be sure her superior wouldn't find her and presumably couldn't think of a quick way to force her to fall. (He should have made her shatter her own heart too). jo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:30:31 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Head-Hunters Now, I'm not really swayed either way by the notion of a bunch of SAS-type assassins who don't owe allegiance to any Prince and have no personal ambitions other than getting more notches on their unholy swords (although I can easily imagine free-lilim character-assassins, or who get angels to do the actual dirty work for them). But on a similar tack, here is something which I think could work: The Head-Hunters -- Recruitment Consultants to the Lowerarchy There are times in any Demon Prince's life when he gets annoyed with the idiocy and incompetence of his own servitors. ("But no!" you cry? -- I'm afraid it's true...) There are times when he has a position which he needs filled properly and is unwilling to train his own demons up, or isn't convinced they have what it takes. Perhaps he needs a new supervisor for his training grounds, or someone to build up political influence in a major city, or someone with a fearfully brutal reputation to kick his troops into order in some remote location. Or perhaps the Prince is a more hands-off type (or a less.. rapid thinker) and it is one of the more cunning Dukes which has staffing difficulties. And sometimes... it might just be that one of the other princes has what seems to be a _most_ competent demon. How irritating that it is being wasted in someone else's service. How much better things would be if.. instead of always having to train your own staff, you could just pick out the creme de la creme... Now, it is by no means impossible for a demon to swap princes. It isn't precisely encouraged, but it isn't as generally despised as going renegade. Princes condemn it bitterly when they lose a good servitor, but don't seem to have much problem with it when they gain one. The demon in question probably needs to break its heart (if it has one) and be given a new one by the new Prince, but in cases of head-hunting, private arrangements can sometimes be made via the Game as a mediator (to minimise the risk of the demon doing something stupid in-between breaking its own heart and getting a new one). If a demon is looking to recruit from the ranks of another prince, the first place to go is to the Head-Hunters, a small group of free lilim who have their own HQ near Lilith's Guildhall. Any would-be employer is guaranteed discretion, and gives the lilim a rough description of the kinds of skills he is looking for. Then the recruiters go to work. They attempt to keep files on demons which seem to have potential, and frees returning from missions are sometimes offered nice geases in return for debriefing on any interesting demons which they came across, anyone especially competent or with an interesting local reputation. Complete dossiers on all suitable candidates are offered to the employer, who must then make his own arrangements to contact and recruit the targetted demon. The usual rate is a geas/3 per dossier which the employer wishes to keep, whether the demon is recruited or not. Because of their known links with free lilim, any demons who are dissatisfied with their current jobs, feel that they are being under-utilised, or might be interested in switching princes will sometimes seek frees out and make this known, so that the Head-Hunters can add that to their dossiers. Of all the princes in Hell, Baal has made the most wide-spread use of this group. He seems to have a knack for persuading targetted demons that they really would profit from an army career. Preferred recruitment tactics involve asking the head-hunters to prepare a list of competent assassins, and giving them a target who is within Gehenna. Any of the candidates who manage to kill or wound the target will find themselves trapped by a crack squad of Military Police and taken off to a small room with bright spotlights in which the Prince himself asks whether the demon prefers to be flayed alive and rolled in salt, or whether it might like a new job because he admires its style. (So, does Baal ever use free lilim or does he just convince the promising ones that they really want to bind to him?) jo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:18:51 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Wordhounds >Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 17:50:28 -0400 > >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >At 3:47 PM -0500 8/27/98, Redneck Gaijin wrote: > >>>First, a band of "for hire" assassins steps on far too many toes in >>>the structure of Hell. [...] especially if they upset the >>>balance of Hell so wildly with some capricious killing.> >> >>Capricious? Not the Wordhounds. Little reasons aside, they're under the >>strict control of Lilith herself- they aren't going to take just any demon's >>case. > >Strict control. Lilith. *In the same sentence??* Why not? You don't think that Lilith actually believes in freedom for anyone but herself, do you? After all, if other beings' rights have to be observed, that would impede her own freedom of action -- and she can't go against her word, after all... - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 08:57:51 -0700 From: "Steven Feldon (Exchange)" Subject: RE: IN> The Tsayadim I'd like to propose and suggest a different take. Instead of "resigning" from a word being a function of Purity, make it function of an unavailable Superior. One can keep certain parts of the powers granted by your Superior if they're not available, but you can't fail to support their word, or you lose the connection. The basic idea is that Joeblowiel the Angel and Bigguyiel the Archangel have a bond between them that's providing Joe with Word related powers and Bigguy with. . . whatever Superiors get from having a servitor besides someone to boss around. Essence, if that's what canon ends up deciding. Now, to keep this bond in place, at least one of them has to be living up to their end of it at all times. Bigguy pretty much can't stop embodying the Word of Bigness, so Joe can afford the occasional lapse. But if you replace Bigguy with Raphael, Uriel, or Mariel, suddenly, Joe can't be quite so cavalier. If he stops keeping his end of the bargain, he immediately loses the "Wordbond", and with it any powers that stem from his Superior. Possibly, as a first pass, this would mean that Joe can't incur any Dissonance from Bigguy's Dissonance condition without losing the connection. Does that makes sense? steve -----Original Message----- From: David Edelstein [mailto:AmadanSJG@compuserve.com] Sent: Thursday, August 27, 1998 7:01 PM To: Blind.Copy.Receiver@compuserve.com Subject: IN> The Tsayadim >>>Is this a two-step process? I mean, do they fall just by resigning from Purity, do they? Or do they resign from Purity and thereby lose their invulnerability to Falling, and so fall at a later date for some other reason?<<< The latter. Of course the process of "resigning" from a Word has never been established in canon -- it may be something only Servitors of Purity can do, by virtue of the intense dedication required to remain an angel of Purity. -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 17:39:42 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> FotM Nitpicks, Kitty, Spoiler On Thu, Aug 27, 1998 at 05:37:52PM -0500, Elizabeth Bartley wrote: > On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 Akumsa@aol.com wrote: > > > I just got FotM today, and I am wondering, WHY did he kill her? She did her > > part... If this is how Malphas rewards his servitors, whats the point? > > He killed her because she was a Bright Lilim and he no longer needed her. > But there was that bit about Lucifer promising a principality to anyone who made a Malakite fall. Malphas should have modestly declaimed all credit and sponsored her for Princehood! As long as he could convince her that having her own Principality was better than being pushed around by Blandine all her life (and can't you do so much more good in a position of power? Of course your nature will have to be realigned first, but that's just a formality.) he was made, and who could object to the sworn word of Lucifer? Just about everybody, that's who. Not that Malphas in his innocence even suspected that anyone might be a tiny bit displeased... Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "We have been fortunate enough to live to a time when virtue, though it does not triumph, is nevertheless not always tormented by attack dogs." Alexander Solzhenitsyn, the Gulag Archipelago. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Aug 98 11:41:09 CDT From: redneck@detnet.com (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Wordhounds >I have to agree with Matthew -- the Wordhounds are a cute idea for a more >tongue-in-cheek campaign, but totally inappropriate for anything remotely >resembling canonical In Nomine. > > >>>>Hell without assassins? -Especially- work-for-hire assassins?<<< > >Oh sure, there are assassins, even work-for-hire assassins. But a "Hire Us >To Go Whack the Servitor of Any Other Prince" Assassin's _guild_? I don't >think so. Guild, no. The WordHounds aren't -that- big, maybe a dozen or so regulars at the most. > >>>>Capricious? Not the Wordhounds. Little reasons aside, they're under the >strict control of Lilith herself- they aren't going to take just any >demon's >case.<<< > >These guys would draw an unbelievable amount of fire down on Lilith. I >don't think the geases she'd get could possibly be worth it. The fact that >she personally sanctions any contract (an unlikely notion for Lilith >anyway) would only make her that much more culpable, and that much more of >a threat, in the eyes of the Princes whose Servitors get whacked. I think you overestimate the value of servitors to Demon Princes. A couple of Princes might indeed get righteously cheesed (Asmodeus), but others probably wouldn't care (Haagenti, Saminga) and a few might, under the right circumstances, be pleased (Kobal, Malphas). After all, they're all just tools for the Prince's own personal goals, right? Only if the Wordhounds disrupted something -very- important to the Prince in question would that Prince become overly annoyed at them and their 'sponsor.' Since Lilith personally chooses which jobs the 'Hounds take, she can easily choose which situations would be too sensitive to interfere with and which situations she can send the Hounds into, earn their pay, and cover for them to the offended Prince. Of course, after making that cover, she can come back to the 'Hounds and say, "You Owe me," and sink her claws into them that much deeper. >>>>How do -you- know that Lucifer didn't set up the demon to be taken down >or threatened in order to prove its worth? > >Just because Lucifer gives a demon a Word, it does not follow that that >demon has found favor in Lucifer's sight...<<< > >No, but the Wordhounds are going around presuming to second-guess Lucifer. >Lucifer certainly would approve of a certain amount of evolution in >action...if someone wants another demon's Word badly enough to try to take >it from him, Lucifer will probably let him try, and might even give the >upstart the Word he sought if he prevails. But a group that runs around >killing Word-bounds because someone didn't like Lucifer's first choice? No, >I can't see the Darkest of Dark Lords being particularly fond of that >notion. That's presuming to know Lucifer's plans, too. Lucifer expects Wordbound demons to set up a power base from which to promote Hell, promote their word, and keep themselves alive. If that power base can't stand up against an expensive hired attack squad, well... But consider this: anytime -any- demon thinks that Lucifer has not taken - -its actions- into account in his schemes, then that demon is -truly- being presumptuous of Lucifer's plans. >>>>Yes... but let's suppose you don't want your involvement in the activity >to be public knowledge?<<< > >So rather than cultivating your own force of very covert, very secretive >trusted Servitors, you rely on a bunch of Servitors of Lilith to do dirty >deeds for you and keep your secrets? Consider: you know Lilith never breaks a Deal... >>>>As Lilith's servants, the Wordhounds have a unique advantage; provided >they can show they were under Lilith's orders to do something, they >probably >won't have to worry about the consequences of their actions.<<< > >Really? Really. >And oh yes, Lilith would be taking more flack than she can possibly handle. >She's not the most powerful being in Hell, and her Lilim are valuable but >not indispensible. She maintains her position by being more useful than she >is threatening. If she starts to be perceived as a threat, she becomes >forced to play hardball to survive, and that's definitely not where she >wants to be. And if she's sponsoring a bunch of assassins who will go >around killing the Servitors of other Princes, she's definitely presenting >herself as a threat. (1) Lilith is not indispensible, but she is *incredibly* useful, and not just for Lilim. (2) All the Princes are indebted, to varying degrees, to Lilith. (3) If you don't think Lilith doesn't play hardball, tell me how she survives in an environment where a Prince can, and has, eliminated a resource -entirely- just to make sure a hostile Prince couldn't use it. and finally (4) I severely doubt the Wordhounds are the only team of assassins sponsored by a Demon Prince. They're just the only ones around for hire. Redneck Kris Overstreet's email has changed... http://www.detnet.com/redneck/ - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.wren-spot.com/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM http://www.wren-spot.com/wlp/milkmaid.html - The Magnificent Milkmaid ... respond to redneck@detnet.com please ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:56:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> FotM Nitpicks, Kitty, Spoiler > But there was that bit about Lucifer promising a principality to anyone > who made a Malakite fall. Malphas should have modestly declaimed > all credit and sponsored her for Princehood! As long as he could convince > her that having her own Principality was better than being pushed around > by Blandine all her life (and can't you do so much more good in a position > of power? Of course your nature will have to be realigned first, but > that's just a formality.) he was made, and who could object to the sworn > word of Lucifer? After having read FotM (hee) I agree. This is a much more entertaining, and certainly more FACTIONS way of dealing with the problem. I agree that it seems more then a little out of character for Malphas. The problem with having a demon prince just off an NPC is that it's a lost plot toy. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Aug 98 12:17:05 CDT From: redneck@detnet.com (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Wordhounds, again >> From: redneck@detnet.com (Redneck Gaijin) >> >Mark Allen (mallen@byte-me.org) writes: >> >> Hell without assassins? -Especially- work-for-hire assassins? > >There's obviously been some kind of miscommunication. I don't believe I ever >claimed that assassins simply *did not exist* in Hell, merely that they >would certainly be exceptionally discreet in their work, although still bound >to Piss Off the wrong Superior, and probably crushed like a Dixie Cup. Only if they get too annoying. Demon Princes usually have better things to do with their time than spray for assassins. >> >little effort to squash this band like bug -- especially if they upset the >> >balance of Hell so wildly with some capricious killing. >> >> Capricious? Not the Wordhounds. Little reasons aside, they're under the >> strict control of Lilith herself- they aren't going to take just any demon's >> case. > >I think you've chosen to modify the behavior of the Wordhounds "gang" as >capricious. What I should have been more clear about is the *client's* whims. >In the sense you're describing, an assassin is merely a political tool. Tools >can be used as its owner sees fit. > >Obviously, not every demon in Hell is going to have the amount of Essence >to "buy" an assassination, but for those who can. . . Those who can will have to not only -pay- Lilith, but convince her that it is worth her time to accept the job: (1) The demon must have some support from his Superior for the Word; (2) The demon must be demonstrably suitable for the Word; and (3) The current competition (or Word-holder) must be in a position where their loss will not cause undue trouble for Hell in general and Lilith in particular. >I'm also a bit curious why Asmodeus allows Lilith this seemingly personal >band of killers to be under her thumb and availible for general hire. Perhaps >you could expand on that. There are at least three possible reasons, more if a GM feels creative: (1) Asmodeus might have been bought off by Lilith. Maybe the Wordhounds give him information they pick up not related to the job. Maybe the 'Hounds help with hunting down Worded Renegades on Earth. Maybe Lilith gives Azzy any of the 'Hounds that 'just doesn't cut it' or who falls through on their part of the Deal to him to put to the Question. (2) Lucifer, for his own reasons, protects the Wordhounds from direct retribution by Demon Princes. This probably would not be the same kind of 'protection' that the Game might have- while on the job, the 'Hounds are fair game, but while at base between assignments they're 'hands-off.' Perhaps, now and again, Lucifer Himself has used the Wordhounds to weed out embarrassing failures he doesn't want to soil his hands with... (3) Asmodeus, for his own reasons, chooses to leave the Wordhounds alone. After all, the Game is no fun if there are no surprises... >> >Thirdly, while deceit, assassination and outright evil has a place in being >> >worthy of Lucifer's attention, I can't honestly believe he'd be willing to >> >grant some other demon a Word he'd given out before. >> I do believe he has. I can't recall the reference, though. > >Er, yeah... but not after hiring a bunch of paid killers to take out >the opposition. Consider the following exchange. "Oh dread Master Lucifer, I humbly petition-" "Oh, quit groveling and get on with it, I've got things to do." "Yessir. I want to be the Demon of Lactose Intolerance." "Yes, I believe I appointed someone to that Word from Haagenti. And you did away with him, correct?" "Yes, Master. I'm a servant of Nybbas, lord, I'm going to slowly addict and poison humans through a series of pills they'll take after I dupe them into-" "Yes, yes, a nice little plan. How did you do it?" "Well, I make these commercials, Master, and-" "Nonononono. How did you get rid of the previous Demon of Lactose Intolerance?" "Oh. Well, I tried getting Haagenti to eat him, but that didn't work out... so I, um, hired-" "You hired Lilith's Wordhounds. They do good work, don't they?" "Ah..." "Well, intrepid one, I'll give you your word. Maybe you'll hold it longer than its previous holder." "Thank you, Master!" "Don't thank me, thank your faithful Hounds. Maybe they'll remember your generosity, next time." "... next time, Master?" "The next time some demon wants the word of Lactose Intolerance. I hear it's a very popular Word these days." "......." "If there's nothing else, I shall leave you to your good fortune. Good luck, my cunning and loyal servant." "......" >> >they *actually* sought. Payment of Essence, to my concept of Lucifer, would >> >seem a *poor* substitute for actually lying, backstabbing and stealing >> >your way to the top of the heap. >> How do you think one -gets- that much Essence in Hell? > >And if you're already that accomplished, why should you *spend* this Essence >you've scrapped so hard to get just to knock off some lazy idiot Demon who's >presumably fat, dumb and happy where he is? Forgive my sense of dubiousness. >You've gone the first three-fourths of the race alone, and *now* you buy >yourself an army? Best time to buy it. >> >Four, Princes of Hell are not, generally, stupid. (Saminga even has some >> >wits about him, in his own special way.) I would imagine each Prince has his >> >own forces for doing what needs to be done to further their own ends. >> >> Yes... but let's suppose you don't want your involvement in the activity to >> be public knowledge? > >And let's suppose you're betrayed to the Game by your friendly little mercs? >Why should they take the rap for someone else's misdeeds? Heck, they were just >following orders. Facing the Game in a small room with a single bulb and a >bunch of grumpy Djinn does not a pleasant afternoon make. That's why you go to Lilith and -not- to, say, Saminga or Baal or Belial. So long as you keep the secrecy clause in the Deal, Lilith (and her servants) won't squeal. But you better not default on the payments... >> As Lilith's servants, the Wordhounds have a unique advantage; provided they >> can show they were under Lilith's orders to do something, they probably >> won't have to worry about the consequences of their actions. > >So I guess Asmodeus cuts slack for the Servants of Freedom? Those under the direct protection of Lilith, possibly. The Wordhounds are among a -very- select few, however... and if one of them screws up in such a way as to break the Deal, that protection can be swiftly removed. >> Lilith is not the most powerful being in Hell by a long shot, but her >> control of the Lilim gives her enough leverage that it would require >> something truly drastic, indeed, for -any- Demon Prince to strike at her or >> hers. > >I have problems believing that Lilith would call in Favors from a Demon Prince >to prevent harm to some careless assassin. Favors from another Prince, >no doubt, are not used casually. A -careless- assassin, of course not- a careless assassin gets dumped in short order for the Game to pick up. A -successful- assassin, however, deserves protection. Even Asmodeus will agree to that, although in his case he would only refer to his -own- killers. >> And in the meantime, the Wordhounds are useful... and -very- good at what >> they do. > >Assume that I buy that there's a band of several amazingly competent Demon >assassins. How come they're not contracted to the highest bidder already? >Why screw around with the Rank and File? True Power lies with the Princes. >Why hasn't Asmodeus sent them out constantly to hunt Renegades? (1) The 'highest bidder' can only bid so high, until he is no longer the 'higest bidder.' (2) Lilith likes to spread her Geasa around. For some things, Princes are useful... for others, you might want someone in a lower position of power... (3) Asmodeus has a large number of demons already detailed to hunt down the lower-class Renegades... if a really powerful or sensitive demon goes Renegade, though, then he might not be adverse to hiring extra help... >> Some can... others don't have the power, or intelligence, or political allies. > >Which leads me to think they're not Word caliber material in the first place. That's part of how the system is set up, to my understanding. The newly Worded demons are -very- vulnerable. Their Word status gives them a bit of rank, but it also makes them a target- a nice ripe target. The first few years of a demon's Wording are a survival test more than anything else. The demon has proven to Lucifer that it is capable of serving the Word well; now it must prove that it can -defend- its Word as well. If it can't, oh well... the only place for the weak in Hell is victim. >> There are many, many, many assassins in Hell, few of which can be trusted. > >Precisely. Which is why I have a hard time believing that any Demon who >could afford such a thing would actually think he was "buying" an >assassination with no fear of reprisal. Heh. In Hell, you can't blow your nose with no fear of reprisal. I always thought that was a given. Redneck Kris Overstreet's email has changed... http://www.detnet.com/redneck/ - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.wren-spot.com/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM http://www.wren-spot.com/wlp/milkmaid.html - The Magnificent Milkmaid ... respond to redneck@detnet.com please ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 17:15:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Los Angeles Wordbounds On Thu, 27 Aug 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >Aren't seneschals usually Word-bound by definition though, their tether > >generally being their Word? > > Generally, though there are some exceptions, and yes, the Word is, > 99.99999999999999999 times out of 100, the Tether. Reminds me of an angel I created: Zuriel, Angel of Masada. At first he was a typical Seneschal for a Stone Tether, but he discovered that Masada had a deep symbolic meaning to Israel, in much the same way that the Alaamo has a deep symbolic meaning to Texas. His Word expanded from there... I have a writeup for him on the INC. Or I can post it here, if some folks don't have web access. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 23:30:33 EDT From: CaelinR@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Wordhounds In a message dated 8/28/98 9:24:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, neel@cswv.com writes: << Why not? You don't think that Lilith actually believes in freedom for anyone but herself, do you? After all, if other beings' rights have to be observed, that would impede her own freedom of action -- and she can't go against her word, after all... >> I dunno. I think Lilith is probably *very* concerned with freedom beyond just the personal sense. First of all, her word is "Freedom," so she is very stongly linked to the state of freedom in the world. She gains a lot of essence from promoting the freedom of others, and she certainly craves that power. Granted, that's so *she* can remain free, but the practical result is at least a pragmatic, self-serving interest in the freedom of others. The second reason I buy the notion that Lilith is concerned with freedoms beyond those directly pertaining to her is that I've never really seen her as evil, per se-- more as a "true believer." She honestly believes that everyone has the right to make their own choices-- and to live with the consequences. Afterall, if she didn't believe in freedom, why would she avoid having permanent servitors? By any measure, she's the most hands-off of any of the Demon Princes, and most Archangels (Eli and possibly Novalis as exceptions). ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 15:23:00 +0100 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Los Angeles Wordbounds Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >>Even so, Baal will recognise the importance of keeping all of your bases >>covered. If somewhere like LA was left without a certain number of more >>powerful Word-bound, not neccessarily *his* but *somebody's*, then >>Heaven becomes far more capable of retrieving the territory. > >The Wordbound Seneschals may be sufficient, along with Absinthia >and Jurgen. (With the Tether-rules being proposed, Seneschals are >nasty, nasty people to go up against.) > I like the sound of these Tether-rules. They make 'occupying forces' of either side more feasible without having major Word-bound support. >Another reason for Wordbound not to care about LA much (as you >alluded to) -- there's nothing for them to do *but* sit on their >heels and direct lackeys, lackeys who are now out there *making >progress* dragging humans to the Pit in places where it's an >achievement. Out there making themselves look good -- and probably >trying to make you look bad. If you have any *real* ambition, you >don't hang out in LA for years upon years, unless it's to build up >a Role -- and if you're that powerful, you probably already have one. > Hmmm. Yes. I suppose you're right. I'd always been of the opinion that Word-bounds were personally based somewhere that their Word was very strong. On reflection, keeping such a locale staffed by your subordinates to ensure that your Word remains healthy there whilst you go off furthering it is much more likely. There are surely going to be exceptions though, such as demons holding localised Words (specific neighbourhoods for example). The Wordbound demon of Compton (if there is one) is going to be spending more of his time right there, as opposed to a Demon of 'the 'Hood', who would be mobile between any number of such communities. (Part and parcel of getting laden with a limited Word I guess. Less chance for development and greater recognition, i.e. *Power*) Somebody like Kevin (FotM), could well be the main vassal of the 'Demon of Hollywood', and tied to the L.A. area through his position as a Seneschal. His boss meanwhile, rather than being 'on set', or lavishing in the jacuzzi with umpteen hopefull starlets, is instead spending more of his time in backwater towns and cities across the globe selling the 'glamorous ideal' that is his Word. Of course, such masters would probably return fairly regularly to homebase. Just to check up on things, and if their essence flow has faltered you'd better come up with some real fast answers... (Anyhow, thanks to you and Walter for these comments on my original post. I'm in the process of setting up a demonic campaign and have found your input very useful. :)) - -- Julian ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #932 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.