From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Sep 10 09:54:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA30572 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:54:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id JAA16222 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:01:14 -0500 Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:01:14 -0500 Message-Id: <199809101401.JAA16222@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #942 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, September 10 1998 Volume 01 : Number 942 In this digest: Re: IN> Undead (was Re: IN> Changing Sides) Re: IN> When an Archangel Falls... Re: IN> Choir/Band Attunements IN> FOTM IN> Re: IN- Random Plot-Seeds IN> word bound IN> REVIEW: The Final Trumpet and Fall of the Malakim Re: IN> REVIEW: The Final Trumpet and Fall of the Malakim Re: IN> word bound IN> Archangel of Death Re: IN> Archangel of Death Re: IN> Archangel of Death IN> Song of Healing? Re: IN> Archangel of Death Re: IN> Archangel of Death Re: IN> Archangel of Death Re: IN> Archangel of Death ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 09:46:20 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Undead (was Re: IN> Changing Sides) Tastes in damnation differ. In real-world religious discussions, I have encountered people who greet the idea of annihilation instead of torment with relief. But I have also encountered people who are incensed or horrified at the idea of annihilation and regard any kind of existence as preferable. Perhaps one group is insufficiently existential; perhaps the other group is insufficently imaginative. Anyway, the prospect of annihilation could be a draw for some undead-wannabes and a tunr-off for others. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 11:05:24 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> When an Archangel Falls... Shadowstar wrote: > Marc has tripped, and it won't be long before the Demon Prince > of the Art of the Deal decides to wreck havoc on the world's > economy... I can see why Lilith would want to help the PCs; he's infringing on her Word territory. But how about calling Marc (should he Fall) the Prince of Fraud? And I think he'd be in for a lot of Word competition, no matter what, wedged in between Lilith, Mammon, Valefor, and maybe Nybbas for that matter. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 14:12:33 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Choir/Band Attunements At 4:55 PM +0100 9/7/98, Julian Breen wrote: >Is it canon that *choir/band* attunements are only granted by Superiors, >or do lesser beings such as Dukes, Arch-Dukes, Colonels, etc, have the >ability to grant their own? Last time I looked, Choir/Band attunements are only from Superiors. Servitor attunements may be possible for lesser beings to hand out, but I think it's a little murky in that canon -- I'm going to go looking at it later. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 23:27:11 +0100 From: Roland Ward Subject: IN> FOTM Just bought the FOTM today - I must say although I heard a lot of negative things about it on this list about it. Okay so not all the L.A stuff was accurate, but I liked the flavour. Although I tend to play with angel characters, there wa a lot of good demon stuff in there. So much for "City of Angels". BTW - Noticed the Belseraph got kicked out of London - (need to tie this up in your stuff Martin..) but why by a member of the nobility? Arghh need to get people away from the idea that Britian is still ruled by aristocrats. They really aren't a force anymore. More likely to be an industialist, or a politician (what about one of those teflon covered Labour MP's) Roland ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 14:18:03 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Random Plot-Seeds >1. Survival of the Fittest: >The weevil angel has managed to get hold of a strange artefact which seems >to inflict some plague-like disease on humans. It used this, along with >Ethereal songs of light to make it very obvious to the humans that moths >were involved, because it thinks that weevils are more important than humans >and doesn't much care if they live or die. Yes! Weevil Angel!!! That's just awesome! "It is I, Angel of Weevils!" Maybe I just like the word weevil and I think we should all make a concerted effort to use it as much as possible on this list. WEEVIL!!! WEEVIL!!! Baal: "According to this information The Enemy is" Luke, Demon of Lightsabers: "My Lord! Forgive me but" Baal: "What is it?" Luke: "Our entire encampment is surrounded by..." Luke: "WEEVILS!!!" Baal: "Satan Curse him... How I hate that Angel of Weevils..." - -Perry, Kyriotate of Flowers serving Eli and sometimes Tanniael, Archangel of Tea Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:10:43 +0000 From: derricks@mail.sa3.state.fl.us (Derrick H. Smith) Subject: IN> word bound In the Hierarchys of Hell and Heaven is a word bound higher than a celestial with a destinction. Just curious Derrick Smith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 17:33:10 -0400 From: Kirt Dankmyer Subject: IN> REVIEW: The Final Trumpet and Fall of the Malakim I seem to have acquired an advance copy of _The Final Trumpet_. (I didn't realize this until after I bought it, and discovered the SJG web page lists it as "At the Printer") Below is a review of _Fall of the Malakim_, which my slow-as-molasses retailer only got me recently, and of _The Final Trumpet_. There are many spoilers. You have been warned. _Fall of the Malakim_: Unlike many of the people on this list, I liked this supplement. It's not as good as, say, _The Marches_ or _Heaven and Hell_, but I give it a reserved thumbs-up. I'll explain why below. The extended Superior writeups for David and Lilith were good, if not spectacular, although I agree with a friend of mine that the Lilith entry is a tad "fanboyish", i.e. "Lilith is soooooo coooool." But that's because Archangel Beth wrote it, so that's okay. ;) And my only nitpick with the David entry is I'm still not sure why he dislikes Marc... The expanded rules for Brights were okay, though I'm unlikely to use the Bright Lilim attunements in my game. The expanded rules for Geases, however, were very, very useful and nearly worth the price of the supplement all by themselves. My hat's off to Archangel Beth for that bit. The real highlight of the supplement, in my opinion, was the L.A. writeup. I liked the situation that was set up there, I liked the tensions of a demon-ruled city, and I really felt for all of the sympathetic characters, including Max. It looked like an excellent setting for adventuring. The characters, with the possible exception of Scamper and Scurvy, were well-thought out and interesting, and I liked the way each was introduced with an opening vignette. I'm especially fond of Hopscotch. "You like porn, kid?" It is precisely for this reason -- that I like the L.A. writeup -- that I disliked the actual Fall of the Malakim adventure. The supplement authors create this wonderful situation, something that could generate years of game play, and in one fell swoop have Malphas and Kobal destroy it! Not to mention the adventure is sketchy and incomplete, and all the other problems everyone else has brought up on the list already. FOTM (the adventure) had one saving grace: The rules for Constructs, which, IMHO, should have been put in the non-adventure section, kinda like the Sorcerer section in _The Marches_. I liked the Construct rules a lot, and it annoyed me that they were sort of plunked in the middle of an adventure. It's a good thing that there are now official rules for creating Golems that even humans can use, if they have the right occult knowledge. And while we're talking about adventures, all of the furor over the FOTM adventure has eclipsed the fact that "Opening Night" is a pretty mediocre, if not downright bad, adventure. I don't understand Kevin's motivation in using the PCs to solve the murder, and the murder mystery itself left me cold. Only the amusing statistics for generic Hollywood archetypes prevents the adventure from being a total loss. If someone asked me if they should buy this supplement, I would say: "If you want the extended writeups for David and Lilith, buy it. The rules for Golems in In Nomine that it has are also good, as well as the expanded rules for Geases, which are very, very useful if you have any Lilim at all in your game. The L.A. setting is also good if you want a very dark setting, especially if you plan to run an Angelic campaign. If you think any of that would be useful to you, buy it. Do NOT buy it for the adventure -- it's pointless without _The Final Trumpet_, and isn't very good regardless. The only other adventure in their is pretty mediocre as well. I'd say about 2/3 of the material is worthwhile, however." _The Final Trumpet_: I'll also give this a reserved thumbs-up. Let me go over it a section at a time. The expanded Superior writeups for Michael, Baal, Kobal, and Malphas are very, very good, some of the better ones I've seen. Each of them goes a long, long way toward explaining the motivation of that particular Superior, and gives an excellent idea of why the Superior in question is the way they are and what it's like to work under them. The Malphas one, in particular, sent chills up my spine. The Kobal one wasn't as funny as I would have liked, but I understand how difficult comedy is, so it didn't bother me that much, and the bits that *were* funny made me laugh out loud. (Kobal to his Habbalah (cheerily): "Still doing the work of God, are we?") Words cannot begin to explain how glad I am to finally see the writeup for Khalid. Like the Geas rules in _Fall of the Malakim_, finally getting to see Khalid was almost worth the price of admission. My only disappointment was that his writeup wasn't longer. Considering he was almost put in the main book, I was hoping to see the equivalent of an expanded writeup for Khalid then and there. Magog is icing on the cake. I probably won't use him, since I don't intend to run the Trumpets adventure and I can't think of a good reason to have him break free, but I really liked the Magog writeup. This is what demons really are: Nasty. Evil. Insane. No apologists here. I recoiled from Magog from the very start, which makes him and his servitors an excellent villain. The Final Trumpet adventure, which takes up a good half of the book, reminds me of the adventure in _Night Music_: It really makes a better short story (or novel) than it does an adventure. Generally, I consider most of it too sketchy to be really useful or playable, and some of the links bother me. As a backdrop, however, it could be quite good, and several of the fiction bits are very, very good, and gave me useful insight into the In Nomine universe. Too bad most of it didn't. Since the Final Trumpet adventure is really several smaller adventures, I'll go over them all, since some are better than others. In all of the adventures, the PCs are led to the site where one of the Seven Signs are being put into place by a Superior, and they can decide if they want to stop it or prevent it. The signs are, by the way: 1. A Great City is Emptied of the Children of Heaven 2. The Holiest Man in the World Dies by Hands Not Mortal 3. The Mortal Tyrant Harvests a Million Souls 4. An Ancient Evil Breaks its Bonds 5. In Unity, War Is Embraced 6. At the Changing of the Year, All the Continents are at War 7. The Camp ions Battle amid the Flames and One is Vanquished Since, as stated later in the book, in standard In Nomine canon, the first five Trumpets happen but Armageddon does not, it's nice to have these for future reference, in case one wants to do an Armageddon campaign. Also, the section on the prophecy is quick to point out that it is unknown if these Signs are literal or metaphorical, which gives the GM a lot of leeway if he wants to use them later, or independently of the Final Trumpet adventure. The Second Trumpet was by far the best adventure. In fact, if I were going to run the Final Trumpet, I'd have the PCs skip the flawed FOTM adventure and get them started with the Second Trumpet, serving as incognito Servitors posing as Outcasts and/or Renegades. I like the "other ways to get here" reasoning better than using FOTM to get them to Khalid's camp. My only nitpick is the PCs should be able to stop the Holiest Man Alive from being killed, though it should be very, very hard. The Third Trumpet is, in my opinion, the weakest adventure. Choosing the PCs to investigate seems very arbitrary, and the adventure itself does not inspire me. And I don't think having a million refugees die of a disease created by Vapula and Saminga should be counted toward the tally of the Mortal Tyrant in question. The Fourth Trumpet is not bad. It's a red herring adventure -- the PCs are led to think that the awakening of the Midgard Serpent (thought to be killed by Uriel) is the Ancient Evil in question, and end up chasing after Thor to kill it (he's the only one who can), but in reality the Ancient Evil is Magog, released by Khalid's wavering in the face of Malphas. Very interesting. This adventure also has the most chilling fiction vignette, a conversation between Malphas and Beleth. Ugh, ugh, ugh. Even if you don't buy this supplement, flip to page 94 and read it. Trust me. I felt really, really bad for Blandine at that moment. This section also contains that statistics for Dark Khalid, the Demon Prince of Fanaticism. In canon, Khalid does not fall, but the supplement supports alternate visions, should the GM choose to go in a different direction than canon. This is good. The Dark Khalid writeup could be better (the idea that he has no Shedim because no Kyriotates Fell with him in a copout, IMHO), but I like the idea that canon is supporting alternate, non-canon outcomes. The Fifth Trumpet is a set piece, since all it is is the Archangels and Princes voting for war. It's very well-written however, and the part where Novalis finally agrees to war under the pressure of the other Archangels (even Yves) is especially poignant. The Virtue and the Temptress adventure, which follows the Fifth Trumpet, involves rescuing Max from where Kobal hid him in Hell, and acquiring Mira's last Force and restoring her memory. This adventure is mediocre, and, like much of the Final Trumpet adventure, is better for its fiction bits than anything else. Em will be glad to know that Max did NOT fall -- in fact, the pathetic and bizarre conversation between Kobal and Max from this section supports the "Malakim who bend and break, but do not Fall," vision of the Malakim that Em ranted about when the title of the fourth Revelations supplement was first revealed. The Sixth Trumpet is okay, and the ending of Khalid's crisis of Faith is interesting. There are many opporuntities here for the PCs to affect the outcome of the War, for good or for ill, for both sides. I won't go over all the options the GM has here -- suffice it to say there are a lot. The Final Trumpet is a "walking in possibility" with Yves, showing two possible outcomes if the Seventh Trumpet had been sounded. Another well-written bit of fiction, and worth reading. The End contains several options for wrapping up the Final Trumpet adventure, including discussions of non-canon ways of going with things, which I think is a good thing. If I had an criticism of this section, it is that it should have been longer. Which leads me to another nickpick: The supplement is rather thin, and there is a lot of obvious filler. For example, there is a two-page map of the world on p. 62-63 that, as far as I can tell, serves no real purpose other than to take up space. Similarly, there is redundant text: Look at the sidebar on p. 100 and on p. 109, for example. The same suggestion about Kobal appears twice. And don't even get me started on the bland picture of Magog's tomb on p. 96... If someone asked me if they should buy this supplement, I would say: "The fiction bits and the expanded Superior writeups, as well as the description of Khalid and Magog, are high-quality and worth it. The adventure, in my opinion, generally is not. I recommend it, but you should regard it as a 60-page supplement, rather than a 128 page one. Unless you need Khalid or the expanded writeups immediately for your campaign, you might be better off picking up a different In Nomine supplement. I bought it because I really wanted to use Khalid." -Loki - -- Kirt A. Dankmyer --- Academic Computing Specialist http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ -- (910) 759-4202 -- PGP public key available. For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see. --Lewis Carroll ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 18:39:35 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> REVIEW: The Final Trumpet and Fall of the Malakim At 5:33 PM -0400 9/9/98, Kirt Dankmyer wrote: >The extended Superior writeups for David and Lilith were good, if not >spectacular, although I agree with a friend of mine that the Lilith entry is a >tad "fanboyish", i.e. "Lilith is soooooo coooool." But that's because Archangel >Beth wrote it, so that's okay. ;) Hmph. O;> I admit, that if I were writing it today, I'd have written it differently in some ways. But, well, Lilith and Lilim were some of the *first* things I wrote, and yes, they've been sitting around since before I was made LE. (And that's Lilith fan*girl*!) >The expanded rules for Geases, however, were >very, very useful and nearly worth the price of the supplement all by >themselves. My hat's off to Archangel Beth for that bit. Bless you. I'm glad that they were useful. (Stars know that the terminology, at a minimum, needed more clarification.) There are still ways to kill a human with a Geas/1, but I think they're lesser, and the GM can always use the "This Task Is Impossible" way to vanish a Geas. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Sep 98 19:18 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> word bound >In the Hierarchys of Hell and Heaven is a word bound higher than a >celestial with a destinction. I don't think they are strictly linked in canon in any way -- it's possible to have a Word-bound without a distinction, or a high-level distinction without being Word-bound. Note that Lucifer, in particular, can Word-bind any demon to anything he feels like, at any time. On the other hand, distinctions are granted by Superiors, at their sole discretion. So there's nothing to link one to the other, really. On the angelic side, I would suspect that the Seraphim Council might be disinclined to grant someone a Word if they hadn't proven themselves worthy of a distinction, but then Eli doesn't *give* distinctions, so it can't be an absolute requirement. I don't recall if Lauren, the Demon of Strippers (from Night Music) has any distinctions, but she's a distinctly low-powered demon to have a Word. However, since both are measures of a celestial's experience and competence, it's fairly likely that a Word-bound will have at least *some* distinctions, most of the time. As far as telling people what to do, both Word-bound and celestials with distinctions are likely to have people under their command, I would think, though not always. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:18:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Ethan Ace Subject: IN> Archangel of Death Quick question: Is there and OFFICIAL Archangel of Death? I've seen Thanatos and Charon, and they were pretty good, but before I throw them in my game, I'd like to know if anything's set in stone. I don't have FotM yet, maybe its in there? _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:42:05 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Archangel of Death At 4:18 PM -0700 9/9/98, Ethan Ace wrote: >Quick question: >Is there and OFFICIAL Archangel of Death? I've seen Thanatos and >Charon, and they were pretty good, but before I throw them in my game, >I'd like to know if anything's set in stone. I don't have FotM yet, >maybe its in there? There is reference to "The Mysterious Archangel of Death" in Night Music, in Druiel's description. That's all. So far? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:39:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Archangel of Death > Quick question: > Is there and OFFICIAL Archangel of Death? I've seen Thanatos and > Charon, and they were pretty good, but before I throw them in my game, > I'd like to know if anything's set in stone. I don't have FotM yet, > maybe its in there? There is no official Archangel of Death. I have always said that Creation includes Destruction, and you cannot make room for the new without destruction of the old, and all things, no matter how powerful they are, eventually die. I put the actual ACT of Death in the hands of Eli. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 18:53:12 PDT From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Song of Healing? We all know that the songs of healing can heal wounds caused by trauma (ie lost body hits). However, can they heal non-trauma ailments? eg. cancer, AIDS etc. Since songs are "miracles", I don't see why not, although this is potentially game destroying - of course, the check digit should be used as a guide to success. Also, if killing a human causes disturbance, shouldn't healing a human when they should die (naturally)? SurturZ Dissonant Elohite of Stone, Angel of the Illuminati ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 22:47:41 -0400 From: Brandon Quina Subject: Re: IN> Archangel of Death > I have always said that Creation includes Destruction, and you cannot > make room for the new without destruction of the old, and all things, > no matter how powerful they are, eventually die. I put the actual ACT > of Death in the hands of Eli. Hmm, intresting view. Ive always put 'Death' under the Purview of Yves. Afterall, everybody dies eventually. Its part of Gods plan for them, and thus, a part of their destiny. Ive considered giving the 'Word of Death' to one of Yves(how do you make Yves plural) servitors, and assigning angels under *that* angel. Thats how I handle most words, by assigning them under other words. Only if the word dosnt really fit under the word of another archangel do I make a 'new' archangel. Or, of course, if the archangel ends up in a sourcebook (for example, I would have put the Angel of Children under Novalis, personally) Ive even got an angel in my game (very recently created, but due to an IRC Ping Timeout, we havnt really 'begun' the game yet) who is basically serving that apsect of Destiny. Brandon, who cant seem to stay away from this list, and now that he's started up a In Nomine game, he's returned. Hi! :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 01:40:58 -0400 From: "Matthew D. Gandy" Subject: Re: IN> Archangel of Death Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > There is reference to "The Mysterious Archangel of Death" in > Night Music, in Druiel's description. That's all. > > So far? > I have been pondering this lately as well, particularly as this is the only reference to the Archangel of Death, yet the explanations of Heaven-bound souls' travel has already been canonically explained to some extent (especially in H&H). There is even a character (that I can't lay my hands on right now) that sometimes "escorts" important souls bodily to Heaven (ala Ezekial)--one of Gabriel's servitors, IIRC. My own take on the Archangel of Death is that he/she is mysterious precisely because he/she has *no Servitors*. This explains Druiel's interest in taking the Word of Teenage Death in the hopes of meeting/working for said Archangel. So whatever it is that needs doing for the angelic take on Death, the AA of Death works alone and quietly. Possibly an attunement that allows unnoticed movement amongst mortals and celestials both. I also note the lack of a Cathedral mentioned in H&H. The AA could visit those souls who have achieved their destiny and are ready to die or have accepted the idea of death, and kill them--something Servitors of Destiny might be less willing to risk. Since they are probably few candidates that fit the bill (achieved destiny and are ready to die), this would not be a monumental task. It is also possible that the AA might interfere in the potential deaths of innocents and victims--people dying "before their time"--to defend the Word against Saminga. In RP, I see the Archangel of Death as something the PCs see but don't experience--seen in the distance or out of the corner of the eye, but never conversed with (except possibly very tersely). After all, when Druiel gained his Word, he didn't *not* meet the AA of Death, but knew such an AA existed and desired to meet him/her, so there must be at least *some* credible stories. Personally, I would have no problem with this being another item for the Canonical Doubt and Uncertainty list, but if not, I would like to see more information on the subject. (Nudge nudge, Archangel Beth.) :> - --Matthew D. "Demiurge" Schweitzer-Gandy "still looking for the face I had before the world was made" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 01:06:36 -0500 From: Matt Lee Subject: Re: IN> Archangel of Death I was going to ask the same question myself, though more specifically, ask if there were plans to describe/develop the Archangel of Death. One of the things after seeing The Prophecy that threw me w/the game (though now I'm used to it and like how it is) was that Gabriel (aside from using a female appearance, not an anti-female thing just that I can't quite portray Gabriel as Christopher Walken in my games, well, I suppose I can, it is my game, and maybe I will :) is the Archangel of Fire and not Death, I dont actually know much about how it is in actual Christianity or much about actual Angels & stuff in real Christianity at all, but I liked how he was portrayed in the movie so was a tad disappointd that didn't carry over, but anyways, since it didn't, yeah, where's the real Death dude? :) So I'm hoping he'll show up in a future supplement or something. Matt Lee mattlee@execpc.com http://www.execpc.com/~mattlee/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:57:31 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Archangel of Death Matt Lee wrote: > One of the things after seeing The Prophecy that threw me w/the > game [...] is the Archangel of Fire and not Death, I dont > actually know much about how it is in actual Christianity or > much about actual Angels & stuff in real Christianity at all, > but I liked how he was portrayed in the movie so was a tad > disappointd that didn't carry over, but anyways, since it didn't, > yeah, where's the real Death dude? :) There is actually very little in Christian doctrine about angels. That they exist is a general belief in mainstream and conservative Christianity, along with their opposite numbers, but this belief is hardly central and doesn't even show up in the major creeds, as best I recall. A handful are named in Scripture -- Gabriel, Michael, Satan, and (for non-Protestants) Raphael and Uriel. The rest is theological speculation, folklore, and literature. As for the "real Death dude," a very traditional name for the (Arch)Angel of Death is Azrael. I don't recall encountering Gabriel in that role. Uriel is sometimes the Angel of Death. Michael, I recall, is often shown weighing soles in the balance of judgement before God's throne, and so (ironically) has Dominic's job or one like it. But Azrael is the most common name for the angel of death in my reading experience. He appears with that name in "Good Omens," the book by Pratchett & Gaiman listed in the In Nomine bibliography. Gabriel, if anything, is the angel of birth. Even in so dark a movie as "Prophecy." "You know that little groove in your upper lip?" Gabriel tells the hero. "That's because, before you were born, I told you a secret, and then I said--" Places his finger athwart the hero's mouth. "Shhh." For a nice little article by a rabbi on variations on this legend, see http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Shokel/941027_Angel_Slap.html#fn1 Earl ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #942 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.