From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Sep 15 22:43:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA13839 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 22:43:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id WAA20602 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 22:25:07 -0500 Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 22:25:07 -0500 Message-Id: <199809160325.WAA20602@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #947 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, September 15 1998 Volume 01 : Number 947 In this digest: Re: IN> Seraphim Shapings RE: IN> Titanic IN> Cooking with Angels Re: IN> Titanic IN> Titanic adaptation -- Cal's Destiny/Fate? IN> .. from the annals of the archfiend... Re: IN> Introdution and questions. Re: IN> Cooking with Angels Re: IN> Cooking with Angels Re: IN> Cooking with Angels Re: IN> Introdution and questions. IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #946 IN> Cooking with angels Re: IN> Cooking with Angels Re: IN> Cooking with angels IN> discord Re: IN> Titanic Re: IN> Cooking with angels RE: IN> Titanic adaptation -- Cal's Destiny/Fate? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 00:49:35 +0300 From: Yossi Gurvitz Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim Shapings At 21:23 14/09/98 , you wrote: >As a trivia note, my Hebrew dictionary does, indeed, translate >the same word for Cherub as "cabbage" as well. That is the modern use of the word, yes. "Seraph" can also mean "resin"... Yours, Yossi ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 09:22:01 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: RE: IN> Titanic [re: The Cherub Jack getting dissonance] But perhaps this hhumbling experience made him a better person? After a while he realized what a self-centered bastard he'd been, and repented, becoming a really Nice Guy who helped people who had a difficult time. Just a thought. :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 98 06:54:29 -0500 From: David Wood Subject: IN> Cooking with Angels Quoth Elizabeth McCoy on Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:32:20 -0400 >HOWEVER! Yes, the angelic language does not permit lying (though >it can communicate teasing and sarcasm -- you're never unsure >whether the person actually *believes* it, though). And yes, >new celestials often have a hard time dealing with lies (both >hearing them and telling them) for a while, until they learn. Which means the miscommunications between Superiors is entirely the fault of conflicting Words. It may also bring into question certain mechanics of the original Fall according to Canon, but this will require closer examination at some time when I actually get my main book back; one of the players borrowed it, and this is going to make running Thursday a pain. >They also have a hard time with stoves. ("Aren't we supposed >to have a pan to cook the pizza on?" "It doesn't say so." >"I'm pretty sure if we just put it in, it's gonna melt all over >everything..." "That is, indeed, Truth. These 'cooking >instructions' are incomplete.") "Remind me again why we're attempting this? Remember that as celestials, we don't have to eat." "Because there is a human infant upstairs which needs some form of sustenance. This appears to be a common and popular source. Where does your resonance say the girl is now?" "She's still upstairs, asleep. But are you sure we should be feeding her pizza? I don't think she could even eat a whole pizza. There are several cans of something called 'chili' in that cupboard which look to be more her size." - - --from "Three Angels and a Baby" - --David http://home.bluecrab.org/~dwood "I'm *grateful* for my apathy. SOMETHING has to keep my burning, festering hatred of life itself in check..." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 07:40:41 -0400 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> Titanic Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > [re: The Cherub Jack getting dissonance] > > But perhaps this hhumbling experience made him a better person? After a > while he realized what a self-centered bastard he'd been, and repented, > becoming a really Nice Guy who helped people who had a difficult time. And remember that it is Dissonant to lead them away from their Destiny. Perhaps, as was likely given the story, the way he ended was his Destiny. Not all Destinies are great and flowery, perhaps the greatest thing he could do was give up Rose. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 09:18:48 -0400 From: Stacy Stroud Subject: IN> Titanic adaptation -- Cal's Destiny/Fate? Matthew Stein wrote: >Okay, so you're saying that Jack was a Cherub of Destiny; fine, that works >as far as it goes. But what about Rose's jilted fiance (what's his name, >anyway? I can't remember)? Cal, I think. It's dissonant for an angel of Destiny to lead a >person away from his destiny, directly or indirectly. Isn't the actions that >Jack of Destiny took going to cause him dissonance? I mean, this guy ends >the movie on land, soaking wet, very mad, and minus one expensive piece of >jewelry - which could have helped him out a lot during the Great Depression >(because as you'll recall, Rose explains that he lost all of his money in >that event). On the other hand, he survived the Titanic disaster. And it's not necessarily anti-Destiny that he lost everything. In case you didn't notice, Cal was portrayed as a selfish, conceited, cowardly jerk. Perhaps the brush with death and his losses (Rose, the Heart, and all his money) were Heaven's way of telling him to revise his priorities. This guy is not a happy camper - he's broken tables, destroyed >things, almost killed Jack (with a gun and by accusing him of theft and >having him locked to a pipe) - and I doubt, for some reason, that this adds >up to his destiny. Fate maybe, but not destiny. Thus, Jack the Cherub of >Destiny has going dissonance. OK, Jack did rather blatantly steal away the guy's fiance, which could be argued was the cause of all Cal's violent behavior. On the other hand, it's pretty clear that marriage to Cal would not have been healthy or Destiny-promoting for Jack's attuned, to whom as a Cherub he would have the greater responsibility. And Cal's behavior can be put down to free will. He *could* have tried to win Rose back by being a decent human being, after all; trying to kill the competition was not required. He chose the evil option. If he turned toward his Fate, it wasn't strictly Jack's fault. (I would opine that Cal's actual Fate probably had something to do with the quiet spiritual degradation that he would have inflicted on Rose had they actually married, perhaps keeping her from her own Destiny. If we postulate that, then Jack actually helped steer Cal away from Fate -- and, as I noted previously, perhaps taught him a lesson in relating to other people in the process -- by stealing Rose away from him.) Stacy Stroud sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net >Just my two cents. Like I said - aside from that, the story is great. > >Matt. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 16:31:42 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> .. from the annals of the archfiend... [In Confidence] - -- This summary comprises the results of the study which I was requested to complete by a proxy of the winter duke. After some months of investigation; comprising interviews, profiling by both mortal and celestial experts, consideration of anecdotal evidence and interrogation; it is my great pleasure to present my findings, which I dedicate to my dark Prince who is a constant inspiration. A more complete report with full records has been sent to the local archives. This work was made possible by the extensive support of my baron, who graciously allowed me to attend numerous interrogation sessions, and use condemned demons as research material. - -- The Balseraph Mindset Observation: Balseraphs are not prone to rebellious behaviour. Query: Is the Lightbringer himself not a Balseraph? Surely this trait more than any other, must be prevalent in his band-brothers? Close observation has shown that despite numerous declarations to the contrary, Balseraphs do maintain a very tight pecking order via informal means, to the extent where it is almost unheard of for a younger demon to actively work against a more powerful infernal of the same band. It seems almost written into the structure of their forces that a Balseraph will tend to automatically defer to a more celestially powerful Balseraph. Anecdotal evidence indicates that these demons are very sensitive to being resonated by other Balseraphs, because the peculiar nature of their worldview means that with a few brief words, an older demon can literally move the ground from under their feet and change the colour of the sky above their heads. To most other celestials, after time passes and the resonance ceases its effect, it is an easy matter to reorient in the case of a particularly unsubtle Balseraph. But a Liar seems to require to meld the lies seamlessly into its own worldview, with some kind of explanation as to why it was true then but is no longer the case. The more this happens, the more convoluted the demon's personal worldview becomes and the more likely it is to fall easy prey to dissonance. It is perhaps for this reason that they have a strong preference for not taking chances. Similarly, I have seen powerful Balseraphs take advantage of this by demonstrating their superiority in a subtle manner. The younger demon will rarely, if ever, challenge the other's authority openly again. In interrogations, it has been witnessed that it is a common first move when questioning a demon of this band to bring in a far senior Balseraph. The interrogator merely resonates the guilty demon, usually in some small way which may seem unefficient to an impartial observer, and then excuses itself and leaves. Observers may feel that this is grossly unfair, in comparison to the more gory methods which are often used for other demons, but it is undeniably effective. Older Balseraphs with whom I have spoken agree that they expect any demon which they successfully resonate to take the hint and accept its submissive role afterwards. (Observers also note that this is only actually true of other Balseraphs -- other demons are more likely to appreciate a more aggressive show of power.) I do not believe that this phenomenon has ever been studied in any detail (and I have put together a proposal for the sponsorship of a Technological project into Balseraph psychology[1]), but it seems that most Princes do rely on their more senior Balseraph servitors to keep the other demons of that band in good order. By this argument, it could be implied that the only Balseraph which is likely to descend into anarchic and rebellious modes of behaviour is one which is deluded into believing itself more powerful than any other demon (a delusion which can be quickly cured). It also provides a generic (nay, genetic) argument as to why the Prince of the War has always been numbered amongst the most loyal to the causes of Hell. Current studies do seem to indicate that Balseraphs of the War are least likely of any except for your own servitors to go renegade, but this may also reflect on internal security measures. Observation: Balseraphs are prone to paranoia, particularly with regard to other demons of the same band. Question: Is this generic, and does it affect their utility? This follows partly from the argument set out above. In many cases, it is not clear to the demons involved as to which of them is the more powerful, and neither are keen to try their celestial might openly for fear of losing. Given that they are reluctant to simply play with each other's view of reality by simply resonating, the Game is played on a different level. Close observation has shown that in this case, they will speak to each other frequently, each acting as though it were undeniably more powerful but in reality sizing up the other demon and trying to push it into an unwise declaration. Sparring occurs behind the scenes and at a distance, through proxies, minions and any other resources which the Balseraph may control. It seems to be quite common for these tests of power to continue through centuries until one caves in, and even the younger Balseraphs may have a good knowledge of which of their elders are quietly engaged in power plays. The object of the sparring is simply this -- since neither demon is confident of its ability to alter the other's reality via resonance, they try to do this in the real world until enough has been changed through the mechanics of competition that one demon's truth is _actually_ true. It may be that the original point of dispute between them was simply which type of tree is most common in a particular forest, which country will win a war, or which demon will be granted a vacant Dukedom; the magnitude of the problem seems to have no effect on the enthusiasm with which the Balseraphs attack it. Every time a Liar exchanges words with another demon of the same band, it is liable to spark one of these 'reality wars' unless one demon is clearly more powerful. This goes some way to explain why these demons are simultaneously so obsequious and submissive to their superiors, aggressive and arrogant to inferiors, and suspicious of peers. Whenever two Balseraphs openly disagree with each other in public, it is also why you might expect to see other demons of the same band taking an interest.They seem to be expected to have a good knowledge of the current 'pecking order' Because of this, a Balseraph tends to assume that it may be in reality competition with other Balseraphs all of the time. Anyone the demon speaks to could potentially have been 'doctored' by a rival in order to soften the demon up for some carefully planned future reality assault. It is sadly very common for these demons to squander vast quantities of time, effort and their master's resources in furthering these petty battles which occupy otherwise brilliant strategic minds in ways which do not especially further the causes of Hell. My recommendation is that it is counter-productive to assign two Balseraphs to the same team or city unless it is made very clear to both of them as to which is more powerful (in this case, power is more signicant than hierarchy). Contrarily, if a Balseraph in high corporeal position is becoming troublesome, arranging for another demon of the same band and comparable power level to move into the region is an excellent means of distraction. [Rules Note: The IPG gives a way for Balseraphs to cure dissonance by 'making the lie true' but for some demons this isn't enough. They need to make other Balseraphs suffer by 'making their truths FALSE.' This doesn't work on Seraphim or non-arrogant Balseraphs (a set with approximately zero members :) ) who will just say 'It may be true now, but it wasn't true before' or 'Thank you for correcting me. In view of information which I now possess I concede that I was mistaken previously.'] - -- jo, Impudite of the Game, Fashion Police, Archfiend-in-Training ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 13:07:39 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Introdution and questions. At 9:30 PM -0300 9/14/98, Felipe Pereira wrote: >1 - Does a celestial have to spend essence to make their ressonance? Nope. And it causes no disturbance, either. >2 - What can I do to players that abuse of it? (in case it doesn't) If they fail with a CD 6, they're out of commission for at least 10 minutes. Otherwise -- plan for it. This is one of the *cool* things about being celestial! Demons can sometimes become dissonant if someone resists their resonance (see Balseraphs and Habbalah). Angels only risk having their resonance not work on that person (or at all, on a fail with CD 6) for a while. However, institute some house rules for Seraphim -- if they get the TRUTH, they only get parts that are *connected* to the person they're asking. They can't walk up to a random person on the street and ask, "Where is Judy Smith!" and get the TRUTH (she's in Hawaii) from his bewildered "I don't know!" Also, I generally rule that the more closely a Superior (Archangel or Prince) is involved in a matter, the more fuzzy the TRUTH reading a Seraph (even a Seraph Archangel) will get. So if they're interrogating a Lilim, and she says, "I think Mother wants the chocolate for a gift for someone!" the Seraph gets the TRUTH but it's fuzzed to: "She believes it, and Lilith told her this. And that it should be *dark* chocolate, not white chocolate, made by a Servitor of Creation." But he can't get, "She's going to be making a chocolate heart and sending it to Marc for the annaversary of his SEC Tether." >3 - For the archangel of Lightning, in his choir attunements it is written: >"they're the only servitors who spend Essence to enhance the effects of >their Choir attunements". Is it for the check digit, or what? Actually, it would be more accurate to say that they often *have* to spend Essence to *activate* their Choir attunements (and the ones who don't, Ofanim, are noisy from the destruction it causes)... Oh, and Kyrios don't have to use Essence, and they're quiet. They're evil evil evil. (Quick, institute that Kyrios take Mind hits/Soul hits/ dissonance when an inanimate host is destroyed!) >4 - Is the attunement of an ofanite of Jean automatic or does it spend >essence, does she have to make an ressenance roll? (I ruled that it uses, >because the player became too abusive of it). And what is the damage of the >blast? It's automatic. And, as it says, it does 3d hits to the entry/exit. This probably won't do real damage to anyone, but might startle them if they're nearby. If they're touching the exit/entry spot, then give 'em the 3d too, sure. >5 - If a player has a servant, who is in charge of him, the player or the GM? The GM. The player can order the servant to do things (as in the example), but if the GM rules the servant doesn't *want* to, the servant makes a Will roll (minus his level as a Resource) and if he makes it (and he *can* blow Essence!), he doesn't gotta do it. The GM can make up the servant himself, or let the PC do it, but once completed and approved by the GM, it's the GM's NPC. >6 - I am using a campaign with demons and angels togetter, and they did >great, fighting someone that was trying to kill 2/3 of the humanity, but >how can I make this group stay together? With difficulty. >Can you give me some ideas? In the Angelic Player's Guide and the Demonic Players Guide, there are sections on Mixed Parties. >7 - One important question, I want to make a page about IN NOMINE that is >in portuguese, so my friends and my players could see and enjoy it, even >they can start playing In NOMINE, I would like to request the use of some >images in the In Nomine Page and, of course, put your copyright in the >botton of the page, and a link, so they could see yours too and buy books >about the game. may I? For this, you need to write to sjgames@io.com and ask. I suspect you can get permission quickly. (And in the meantime, you can put up the text, so long as you're not translating in great gobs of the book -- that's a copyright/licensing infringement!) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 13:25:32 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Cooking with Angels At 6:54 AM -0500 9/15/98, David Wood wrote: >Quoth Elizabeth McCoy on Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:32:20 -0400 > >>HOWEVER! Yes, the angelic language does not permit lying (though >>it can communicate teasing and sarcasm -- you're never unsure >>whether the person actually *believes* it, though). And yes, >>new celestials often have a hard time dealing with lies (both >>hearing them and telling them) for a while, until they learn. > >Which means the miscommunications between Superiors is entirely the >fault of conflicting Words. Yup. (Just because someone says, "I BELIEVE X!" and it is TRUE that they believe X, does not mean that they are saying some *ultimate* Truth. So Michael can call Dominic a skulking hyena, and Dominic says, "You believe that, but you are in error.") > It may also bring into question certain >mechanics of the original Fall according to Canon, but this will >require closer examination at some time when I actually get my main >book back; one of the players borrowed it, and this is going to make >running Thursday a pain. (Ow.) Remember -- Lucifer became a Balseraph. It is possible that he learned how to "lie" in the angelic, or, more likely, he simply DID believe, with all his heart, that what he said was true. If you want to be evil, let Balseraphs lie in angelic -- but if they fail their resonance *at all* or are resisted *at all* they get dissonance... (Hey, it sounds like a plausible house rule, no?) >>They also have a hard time with stoves. ("Aren't we supposed >>to have a pan to cook the pizza on?" "It doesn't say so." >>"I'm pretty sure if we just put it in, it's gonna melt all over >>everything..." "That is, indeed, Truth. These 'cooking >>instructions' are incomplete.") [snip] Well, our Lilim and Seraph (don't ask) were trying to feed the runaway girl that the Lilim had rescued from the den of Lust... The girl, after hearing them discuss this for a time, asked, "Why don't we just order pizza delivered?" And both celestials got these *relieved* expressions... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:13:19 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Cooking with Angels On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: [some really neat stuff snipped] > Well, our Lilim and Seraph (don't ask) were trying to feed the > runaway girl that the Lilim had rescued from the den of Lust... [snip] actually, i think a Lilim and Seraph could potentially work well together, as Lilim are concerned with finding people's needs and fulfilling them (usually a *good thing,* it's what the Lilim does with her resulting Geas that is potentially evil/selfish/infernal) while Seraphim tend towards investigation, which can easily overlap looking for needs. granted, Seraphim might have an initial disdain for such close contact with humans while Lilim typically blend in with humanity until they spend Essence or are resonated by appropriate chiors. still, for the occasional angel-demon campaign where both are working towards the same purpose (for now), i'd be interested to know what people think of which bands and chiors potentially get on alright (Malakim, near as i can tell, are right out as soon as they find out the infernal they're working with *is* infernal unless said demon is trying to Redeem). out of curiosity, what are the respective Superiors of the Lilim and Seraph in question? and more broadly, of course, people are feel free to speculate on the interchange that might occur between divine and demonic Superiors (i'm aware this has been treaded some--perhaps we could avoid the obvious Asmodeus/Dominic, Lilith/Marc pairings?). -=|horsefly|=- "Back off, preacher, I don't care if it's Sunday. I ain't no angel, but I never felt better!" --FREEDOM, Alice Cooper ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 15:30:08 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Cooking with Angels At 11:13 AM -0700 9/15/98, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: [...] > (Malakim, near as i can tell, >are right out as soon as they find out the infernal they're working with >*is* infernal unless said demon is trying to Redeem). Or one of the rare "_The Other Path_" demons, who do good 'cause they wanna. Shedim are basically icky unless they're Gamesters, in which case they're icky in other ways. Malakim and Shedim mix about as well as Malakim and Balseraphs -- if not worse. Impudites and Mercurians can usually get along with anybody. Habbalah, if very honorable, can *sometimes* get along with Malakim. For a while. Then they pound each other. Habbalah and Elohim, though tend to be an explosive combination eventually -- or else you wind up with no Elohite and two Habbalah. Calabim are violent, but in the right grouping, might be able to get along. Lilim can get along with anyone (except Malakim) -- they're nothing if not fun. Djinn don't care; fighting with angels is usually too much effort. Cherubim, likewise, will Do Their Jobs. Ofanim can get along, so long as they keep moving. Kyriotates are flexible. Balseraphs can convince themselves that they're in good company. > out of curiosity, what are the respective Superiors of the Lilim >and Seraph in question? Free Daughter and Seraph of Creation in service to Destiny. ("Of all the bars in the city, I wander into *this* one, where the bartender is an Elohite and the other waitress is a Seraph. Oh, well, they found me out, so I might as well stick around where they won't get twitchy about not knowing what I'm up to.") And the human had recently been drafted as a Soldier of Gabriel, but Gabriel didn't bother to explain this to the kid. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 98 15:13 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Introdution and questions. >1 - Does a celestial have to spend essence to make their ressonance? >2 - What can I do to players that abuse of it? (in case it doesn't) Besides risking dissonance, for demons, or "resonance burnout", for angels, point out to your players that making lots of resonance rolls will risk a lot of Interventions, too, of which half will be from the wrong side. And an Intervention is as nasty as the GM wants to make it.... >4 - Is the attunement of an ofanite of Jean automatic or does it spend >essence, does she have to make an ressenance roll? (I ruled that it uses, >because the player became too abusive of it). And what is the damage of the >blast? No Essence cost. The damage is 3d at entry and exit, which is rather a lot (enough to do serious damage to many objects, and destroy some of the more fragile ones). As far as abuse goes, there are several things to point out to the player. - he can't control the damage, and he may not *want* to damage the place he's in. 3d of damage is enough to destroy a lot of more fragile objects. And if the path is telephone or electrical wiring, you may want to add side effects, like blown fuses and zapped phones. - the damage he causes also makes disturbance, as with any damage to corporeal objects or people. It will average 2-3 points of disturbance at each end (3d averages about 10 points of damage, and each 4 points causes one level of disturbance), and if the ends are close together, the disturbance will be the sum of the two, since they're related events. This can attract unwanted attention. - humans will notice the corporeal damage; celestials aren't supposed to do things that are too obviously supernatural, in front of random people. The damage the character causes may invite the attention of fire investigators, police, or mysterious government agencies.... - remember that lightning can start fires, and that the damage caused by a fire set off by a celestial action is *all* considered disturbance-causing. So when that Ofanite *zaps* through the wiring in that old house, he's risking a major disturbance if he happens to start a fire there. Note also that Superiors don't like it if their Servitors are too noisy (cause a lot of disturbance) -- if the PCs are often too heavy-handed and destructive, then you can have their Superior limit any rewards they are entitled to on the grounds that they've been attracting attention to matters the Superior would rather other people didn't know about. >5 - If a player has a servant, who is in charge of him, the player or the GM? You can have the player design the servant, if you trust them. But at least check it over and adjust as needed. Otherwise, I'd say the GM should design the servant character. The GM should always play the servant as an NPC, not allow the player to run them. >6 - I am using a campain with demons and angels togetter, and they did >great, fighting someone that was trying to kill 2/3 of the humanity, but >how can I make this group stay togheter? Can you give me some ideas? A lot depends on the exact nature of the celestials involved -- without knowing character types and personalities, it's really hard to offer specific advice. The mixed campaign is probably one of the trickiest to keep going. Personally, I don't allow "evil" characters in my game; I do have a Free Lilim and a human, mixed in with some angels, though. Even that's hard. If the demons aren't particularly "bad" ones, many angels can get along with them. One thing that demons and angels *should* cooperate on, however grudgingly, is to cover up supernatural occurrences from mass public exposure. Which might make a suitable punishment for PCs who've been going overboard and not worrying about what the mundanes see -- make them clean up after *other* people who keep blowing celestial cover! I.e., the "Celestials in Black" campaign. >7 - One important question, I want to make a page about IN NOMINE that is >in portuguese, so my friends and my players could see and enjoy it, even >they can start playing In NOMINE, I would like to request the use of some >images in the In Nomine Page and, of course, put your copyright in the >botton of the page, and a link, so they could see yours too and buy books >about the game. may I? As other people have pointed out, you need to ask permission directly in email -- I don't think any of the SJGames main staff reads this mailing list, which is mostly people who *play* the game, not write it or work at SJGames. Though there are some In Nomine writers and editors who are here frequently, I believe they are all free-lance, not SJGames employees. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 15:16:04 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #946 From: Brandon Quina > Hmm? Who would the celestial players be in the little drama thats playing out in our capital?< Not my capital. But it looks like a Lilim of Andrealphus ran into a human who made a will power roll twice. Otherwise business at usual at one of Malphas's favourite tethers. Adam ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 16:54:06 -0300 From: Felipe Pereira Subject: IN> Cooking with angels Well, I am a GM in a campain that have angels and demons. They get along well, as long as they dont know who the other serves. Here are the details: An Ofanite of Gabriel (No problem since no one there is fleeing justice, and they are helping him) An Ofanite of Jean (No one problem until he knows the Impudite) An Impudite of Vlapula (people doesn't know he is an Impudite at all, cause he seens to "care" about humans) A Lilim of lust (no problem at all, she is very funny) A Habbalah of Fate (No problem, they don't know for who they work) Except for the impuditie and the Habbalah, no one knows the band, and one interestiong thing, the Habbalah is a Lawyer that is defending the demon of NY city but the proofs that she has stolen had fallen in to the Jean's Ofanite, now she has photocopied the originals and is trying to reach Dominic, by the way, the lawyer against the demon of NY is a mercurian of dominic (NPC) and isn't doing great, since the proofs were stolen and he didn't see it. Felipe W. Pereira a.k.a. Azrael fwp@globalsite.com.br ICQ number: 2192991 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 98 16:23 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Cooking with Angels > [snip] actually, i think a Lilim and Seraph could potentially >work well together, as Lilim are concerned with finding people's needs >and fulfilling them (usually a *good thing,* Depends on what the needs are -- I tend toward the model that "bad" Lilim pick up "bad" needs first, while "good" Lilim do the opposite. "Bad" needs are defined as those which would push a person closer to their Fate, such as encouraging bad habits, theft, rape, and similar stuff. "Good" needs are those which would lead a person more toward their Destiny, and tend to be things like jobs, education, or resources that would be used toward self-improvement. And then there are a lot of indifferent needs that don't lean one way or the other very much. Any Lilim *could* pick up any of them, but the nastier the Lilim, the more likely she would be in my campaign to first pick up the nastier needs of the person she's resonating, unless she's explicitly looking for something else. I.e., it's a sort of subconsicous bias based on the Lilim's own personality. > i'd be interested to know what people think of which >bands and chiors potentially get on alright (Malakim, near as i can tell, >are right out as soon as they find out the infernal they're working with >*is* infernal unless said demon is trying to Redeem). I think Malakim can get along with anyone who isn't actively evil, *if* they're with one of the more tolerant Superiors. They may not particularly *like* them, but they could probably avoid bashing on them. And some of them (Destiny and Flowers come to mind) may be actively trying to convert the demon -- which may be as annoying as being beaten on.... For the most part, I think tolerance has a lot to do with Superior, and less with Choir/Band. Very few Swordies or Stone Servitors are going to tolerate demons, no matter *what* their Choir. Most of Gabriel's people are going to be tough sells, too. It will shade up from there, until you get the really laid-back Superiors like Eli and Novalis, and the Destiny lot (who will probably be subtly trying to turn demons to the Light). > out of curiosity, what are the respective Superiors of the Lilim >and Seraph in question? Free Lilim, unattached at the time of the quote, currently serving a year-Geas to Lightning. The Seraph is Creation, in service to Destiny. The guy who runs the bar where they both work (sometimes) is an Elohite of Creation, in service to Lightning. The kid in the quote is a very new Soldier of Fire (and may not have been that, as of the time of the quote -- she was certainly unaware of the celestial nature of the others at the time, and of her own status in the War). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 98 16:36 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Cooking with angels >An Ofanite of Gabriel (No problem since no one there is fleeing justice, >and they are helping him) >An Ofanite of Jean (No one problem until he knows the Impudite) >An Impudite of Vlapula (people doesn't know he is an Impudite at all, cause >he seens to "care" about humans) I'm surprised they haven't spotted him by his glasses, which most angels would notice as being an artifact, and I'd expect most Lightning servitors to know the gadgets typically carried by Tech demons. Since Vapulans get dissonant if they lose their toys, I'd expect the Impudite to have them on his person, if not wearing them, for safety. >A Lilim of lust (no problem at all, she is very funny) >A Habbalah of Fate (No problem, they don't know for who they work) I'd say the Fire Ofanite and the Fate Habbalite are probably on a collision course, too, someday. Fate demons tend to be cruel by nature (sending people to their Fate is not what *I'd* call "kind"), and Habbalah are generally cruel, also. Even if it's not the Ofanite's specific sort of cruelty to deal with, I'd expect trouble here, sooner or later. Other than that pairing, and the Lightning/Technology pairing, you probably aren't too bad off for a mixed party. Too bad you don't have an Elohite in the group -- they're pretty good at holding things together for pragmatic reasons. Of course, the Habbalite of Fate would be bad news for them.... Incidentally, the Lilim of the cooking incident that started this thread was inadvertently pushed toward the angelic side by a particularly nasty (and pushy) Habbalite of Fate. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 18:04:14 EDT From: Smithlopez@aol.com Subject: IN> discord When an angel fails a discord role does the angel lose any discord, or do they just become an outcast with x amount of discord. What about Malakim when they fail a discord role do they lose three points from the total discord. Thanks Derrick Smith ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 16:44:58 +0300 From: Yossi Gurvitz Subject: Re: IN> Titanic At 14:40 15/09/98 , you wrote: >And remember that it is Dissonant to lead them away from their Destiny. >Perhaps, as was likely given the story, the way he ended was his Destiny. >Not all Destinies are great and flowery, perhaps the greatest thing he >could do was give up Rose. ...and blow away his head during the Depression? Some destiny. Yours, Yossi ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 18:38:01 EDT From: JackFaust7@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Cooking with angels Cooking im new here so I jut wanted to intro my self and say hi, names JAck and havent got togather a group as of yet its hard to find people round here to play In Nomine I live in Norfolk VA so, just wanted to pose the question ,.........What are or are there differeances in favorite foods for Demons and Angels , i think Demons would like stuff thats bad for you,fast food, spicy food ect but does any got any ideas thanks for the time ,............Jack ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:20:10 -0400 From: "Matthew Stein" Subject: RE: IN> Titanic adaptation -- Cal's Destiny/Fate? >On the other hand, he survived the Titanic disaster. True, but had he died, then he wouldn't have fufilled either his Fate or his Destiny. Remember, he had to tread towards his Fate by lying to get on that boat with the baby. Didn't he assault someone as well? >And it's not necessarily anti-Destiny that he lost everything. In case you >didn't notice, Cal was portrayed as a selfish, conceited, cowardly jerk. I noticed, but wouldn't this be worse? He lost everything, including his fiance. Personally, if that happened to me - especially if she ran off with a poor dude and I was this rich, elegant man - then I'd go psycho and kill people. Or maybe just lose my head with a gunshot wound. And besides - isn't suicide bad, given Christianity? And IN, I think, tends to adhere to a pretty Christian view of the universe (God, Lucifer, etc.), so that's bad and a Fate, not a Destiny. >Perhaps the brush with death and his losses (Rose, the Heart, and all his >money) were Heaven's way of telling him to revise his priorities. True, true, but it might not have been. Remember what I said before - he went crazy with tables, guns, theft, etc. It's dissonant, as far as I can tell, to lead someone away from their Destiny; not necessarily to lead them straight to their Fate. Right? So regardless of what happened in the end - he got "evil"; most people don't call framing others for crimes a "good" thing. I'd be willing to go so far and say that it is a fundamentally bad thing. Thus, Jack the Cherub of Destiny led Cal away from his Destiny for only a short moment. Maybe his Destiny was brighter than his Fate (note the discussion of predestination in the INC regarding A. Hitler), but he still can swing that way if only for a short time. And that's Dissonant. >OK, Jack did rather blatantly steal away the guy's fiance, which could be >argued was the cause of all Cal's violent behavior. Cross-apply above. >On the other hand, it's pretty clear that marriage to Cal would not have >been healthy or Destiny-promoting for Jack's attuned, to whom as a Cherub >he would have the greater responsibility. I'd have to check the INC and APG very carefully, but I'm pretty sure that leading anyone away from their Destiny is dissonant, even if you've got more important people to attend to. Maybe Jack got his dissonance, then died, and headed up to Heaven, got himself a new vessel, and made things "right" or at least pushed Cal back towards his Destiny, thus removing the point of dissonance. I guess that my major argument is still what it was when I originally commented: Jack got himself some dissonance from dealing badly with Cal. Maybe he fixed it (as I suggested above), but maybe not. The most important thing to remember is that Cal did some pretty bad things, maybe even evil, so it's relatively clear that Cal's options headed south to a warmer climate for a short period of time. Given how things progressed - and his death - I would also think that the Cherub of Destiny (now named sometime else entirely) fixed it so Cal headed back to his Destiny, and ended up killing himself. (Side note: I wonder how much dissonance Yves's more powerful servants gained from trying to keep Hitler "good." Or Stalin, for that matter. Or even the dissonance for Kronos's servators for having ... dunno ... FDR, Washington, etc. turn out good. Worth thinking about, eh?) Matt. [Angel of Weird Ideas, servant of Eli, kind of kicking it now.] ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #947 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.