From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Sep 16 16:08:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA09616 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:08:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA02903 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:04:06 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:04:06 -0500 Message-Id: <199809162004.PAA02903@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #948 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, September 16 1998 Volume 01 : Number 948 In this digest: IN> angels and demons; dissonance IN> Re: IN- angels and demons; dissonance IN> Resonance Questions (help!) IN> Re: angels and demons, killing. (LONG) IN> Re: IN- Resonance Questions (help!) Re: IN> Re: angels and demons, killing. (LONG) Re: IN> Re: angels and demons, killing. (LONG) RE: IN> Titanic adaptation -- Cal's Destiny/Fate? IN> 100% prophet Re: IN> A new way to compute disturbance...? [none] Re: IN> Re: IN- Resonance Questions (help!) IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- Resonance Questions (help!) IN> Titanic: Cherub affairs Re: IN> discord Re: IN> angels and demons; dissonance Re: IN> Re: IN- angels and demons; dissonance Re: IN> Resonance Questions (help!) IN> Re: your mail Re: IN> Titanic adaptation -- Cal's Destiny/Fate? Re: IN> Titanic: Cherub affairs IN> Hymn Before Action ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 00:28:33 -0300 From: Felipe Pereira Subject: IN> angels and demons; dissonance What could cause dissonance for an angel or a demon except their choir/band restriction and the word of their archangel/prince? I have some problems with that because sometimes I think my players aren't playing their characters well. Demons kill lots of people if there is no Celestial around, and sometimes angels do the same!! Felipe W. Pereira a.k.a. Azrael fwp@globalsite.com.br ICQ number: 2192991 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:21:00 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- angels and demons; dissonance >What could cause dissonance for an angel or a demon except their choir/band >restriction and the word of their archangel/prince? Hey, man, you're the game master. If you feel a demon or angel isn't being true to their nature or to their word, slap them some dissonance. That'll make 'em think twice about it. Example? I have an Ofanite of Jean in my group. He got himself wrapped up in some really strong tentacles belonging to the vessel of an etheral god. The tentacles were very strong, he tried to escape once and failed. Didn't try again. I almost slapped him a point of dissonance, but didn't because it was the first night and the player has to get used to the character of an ofanite. >I have some problems with that because sometimes I think my players aren't >playing their characters well. Demons kill lots of people if there is no >Celestial around, and sometimes angels do the same!! I make disturbances in the symphony BAD IMC (in my campaign). We had a Malakite shoot out three security cameras, each shot doing, like, maybe two to fours points of damage, for a total of about nine points of disturbance. Result? The rest of the PC's "just happened" to be nearby and "just happened" to hear the disturbance. It was the first night, it worked to bring the group together. :) Also, this disturbance was enough to attract the attention of The Game, since The Game had some Imps hanging around to hear and report disturbances. So, they sent over a Djinn Cop to investigate it. One of the PC's decided to ram a broken parking meter through the hood of the squad car. He was taken to the 7th District Courthouse, a powerful Tether of The Game. That PC was NOT pleased. In short, dissonance can be slapped on a PC by their superior, sometimes without explanation. Second, disturbances can attract a lot of unwanted attention. You might want to impress this upon your players. If each time demon character kills a human a local angel show up to rumble, maybe it's time for them to find less noisy ways of interacting with people? Also, trying reminding the players that to disturb the symphony is to disturb the fabric of the universe, the universe which God created. I don't think many angels would be too happy to "hear" people disturbing God's perfect creation. - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:28:46 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Resonance Questions (help!) Good day all, Question: if a Balseraph attempts his Resonance on a target and that target successfully resists, do they realize anything's happened? I figure for mundanes, they have no idea anything's happened. For angels... maybe a perception roll in is order or would it be automatic? Is there anything canon concerning this? .. Question: Can Krono's Impudite of Fate choir attunement be used on Celestials? .. Question: Can Krono's Fated Future attuenement be used on Celestials? .. Question: Can a Malakite's Resonance be used on Celestials? - -Perry, Kyriotate of Flowers serving Creation and sometimes Tanniael, Archangel of Tea Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 22:32:19 PDT From: "Micheal Knight" Subject: IN> Re: angels and demons, killing. (LONG) >What could cause dissonance for an angel or a demon except their >choir/band restriction and the word of their archangel/prince? Their Superior. Directly. Their Superior can also quite easily inflict Discord as a punishment, usually something appropriate and mean. Merciful on an angel who's been naughty in killing things, for instance. >I have some problems with that because sometimes I think my players >aren't playing their characters well. Demons kill lots of people if >there is no Celestial around, and sometimes angels do the same!! I'm going to address this paragraph in bits and pieces. First, I'll address the "playing their characters well" bit. You've stumbled into one of the perennial distractions that many and most GMs face. Most of the time, Players WILL play their characters in unexpected ways. On the other hand, if you really feel they're acting in a manner contrary to the stated character, talk with them. Point out what you feel is strange in their play, ask about it. Another point: Killing people is NOISY. REALLY REALLY NOISY. That's a TEN point gong in the symphony, per body. Kill 3 or four people right in a row, or all at once, and even a Shedim with a perception of 1 is gonna notice it, several blocks away. A >really< perceptive Celestial will notice the death of a SINGLE human at 400 yards away. (Which is nearly a kilometer, for you non-American types) On top of that, most angels should >not< be racking up human bodies in this way. It's not good for demons, either. I'll list off some thoughts on most Choirs/bands and Superiors here. Choirs: Seraphim: The best POSSIBLE write-up on Seraphim and killing HAS to be Druiel. I can't possibly top that. Balancing being truthful and leading humans to destruction is the kind of situation that makes happy Malphas minions flock around you and push you to fall, while Kobalites do a dance of joy, and Nybbas makes a Musical for you. Cherubim: Definitely can't harm their charges. Most Cherubim tend toward seeing themselves as humanity's protectors, and would regret having to kill a human under most circumstances. Ofanim: Don't gain dissonance directly. Probably bad anyhow, depending on the Superior. Elohim: Any Elohim on a killing spree is close to getting tattoos and calling humans "weaklings." There are few reasons other than "I have orders to do this" that are objective, to kill humans off. Malakim: Most likely angels to kill humans when needed. The "never suffer an evil to live" vow can actually FORCE a Malakite to kill a truly evil human, if he can't be Redeemed. Kryiotates: Shouldn't involve their host in fights if they can help it. It can get the host killed or seriously injured (dissonance). Mercurians: Any Mercurian on a "let's off humans" spree is getting dissonance fast. Very fast. Archangels: Blandine's servants are much to busy supporting her word for such things. Don't you have a dreamer to protect? David's servitors gain dissonance for starting a fight. This will definitely limit the amount of unhindered maimage they can do. Killing off a lot of people doesn't usually foster the solidarity and strength that he seeks in humanity, either. Dominic's servitors gain dissonance for inflicting a punishment greater than the crime, and on actual INNOCENTS, >any< punishment is greater than the crime. Killing an innocent as one of Judgement's boys ought to be 2 dissonance or worse, plus Outcast possibilities. Moreover, Judgement's boys and it's patron Archangel take a pretty dim view of ANY angel breaking their rules. Inquisition time all over. While Eli's angels don't gain dissonance for such things, killing humans is certainly NOT what he had in mind, when he said "Do what thou wilt, but be cool." Gabriel's servitors may actually have orders to kill people, either frequently or not. On the other hand, scaring people into reformation is MUCH better for the side of Heaven as a whole. Many of her Angels understand that. Killing a lot of humans to support Janus' word of Wind (in the manner of chaotic change) might not impres him much. It's not DISSONANT, per se, but I doubt he'd find it amusing. Ditto for Jean. Can't imagine many situations where killing people is the best way to support the word of Lightning, ot the work he does with technology. Jordi's angels actually gain dissonance for putting the cares of humans ahead of those of animals. If one had to, he'd certainly kill ten humans to rescue a killer whale. I can't imagine the word or spirit of Laurence's angels containing the idea "Go kill several humans." This tends to exclude these guys from the killing spree party. Marc: See Jean, or Janus. Michael's servants might have standing orders to kill evil humans. They also might find a very ANGRY Michael, if they're killing the undeserving. His word is War, not Senseless Slaughter. I doubt he'd much care for more of Dominic's scrutiny, either. God help you if you're an Angel of Novalis, and you've killed a human. You're a short step from Falling, and not too far from being put in the nice flowery room until you work it all off a bit. Yves wouldn't likely support this kind of thing, either. Killing people doesn't exactly send them to Destiny, usually. - --------------- On the Demonic side of things, most Bands can actually go on killing sprees unhindered, but the Noise is a problem, and some other ones exist, too. Bands: Balseraphs who have said "I won't kill you" will certainly gain one STUBBORN point of dissonance from killing that person. It's tough to lie to someone who's dead, without tracking them down in the afterlife. (And boy, if they're in Heaven, just forget it) Djinn can't actually kill their attunements (unless they're Saminga's, but even Sammy-boy's get dissonance for harming and >not< killing an attunement). Most Djinn also can't be bothered enough to care about people to see killing them. Calabim are probably most at home killing, maiming, and breaking people. Even they will get noticed at it, though. Ten Malakim coming to visit can ruin your day, and spree. Habbalah could probably get away with it, too, but it's not as easy to rationalize as part of their "mission from God," IMHO. Then again, "Gee, he was so weak, I didn't really MEAN to break it," might work just fine. Killing a bunch of humans as a Lilim is a WASTE. Much better to get Needs on them all and geas them into next year. Shedim make a lot of sense on killing sprees. On the other hand, a host with a high enough Will is a SERIOUS problem for such a Shedite. Tough to convince someone REALLY strong-willed to kill people he doesn't want to. (This can lead to dissonance for the evil cloud, too) Impudites gain dissonance immediately if they kill a human directly. Big waste of life, and essence. Princes: Andre's dissonance restrictions would seem to support killing as all right, as long as you don't CARE. Reemember, though, that dead men have much fewer lusts, and don't support the Boss's Word much at all. He wouldn't be amused. Asmodeus' demons have better things to do than worry about humans. Baal's men should remember, when starting a fight, that they have to keep fighting until there IS no other side, they're ordered out, or they are slain. This means if the cops show up and start shooting, you either eat dissonance and run, or kill them all. Until there aren't more shooting. (Come to think of it, Michael's minions might need that reminder, too) Beleth's demons should be promoting fear. Dead men don't fear much anymore. Any demon of Belial on a killing spree better be using the right fork (flaming) and manners (Burn them! Buuuurrrrn theeeem!) Note that if they get themselves nailed in any way while killing, they get dissonance. This includes getting caught by angels, or police while burning that shopping mall to the ground. For Haagenti's reminders, see Andre. Kobal's minions should only kill people when it would be FUNNY. Fatal punchlines are good. Random, unfunny violence that makes people not laugh at all, and in fact cring under their beds, is bad. The fiends of Kronos should only kill people who have either met their Fate, or will meet their Fate by dying. Letting someone meet their Destiny, then killing them (which means they can't meet their Fate) is probably dissonant. Those of Malphas' myriad plots will often find themselves involved in violence. Using it directly, though, is considered the sign of an amatuer by the Boss, and can lead to an unfortunate desk-job. The Media's demonic servitors should be out there COVERING these deaths. Causing them AND covering them might be interesting, though. Saminga... death... fun... whole job. Enough said. Valefor's word isn't really best served by senseless death. His demons shoulld be out there causing theft, and inspiring it, and having a good time. Ones that have a good time killing things might maybe be best served by trying to get Saminga to recruit them. Vapula's servitors can use killing as a GREAT test for experimental stuff. They can also kill hordes of things by ACCIDENT, testing experimental stuff. Other than that, they should be busier doing 'Demon of Technology" stuff. Killing people doesn't usually prove much, unless it's for experimental purposes. - ----------------- Well, there's a complete load of probably not-Canonical thoughts on most Angels, Demons, and killing. Do with it as you will, but that contains a lot of ideas on "how to curb body-stacking PCS" Micheal ~~~ We had our questions So much we wanted to know. Where were the answers? ~~~ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 22:50:06 PDT From: "Micheal Knight" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Resonance Questions (help!) >Good day all, Hello, yourself. >Question: if a Balseraph attempts his Resonance on a target and that >target successfully resists, do they realize anything's happened? *whips out rulebooks, thinks about paraphrases* Lesee, the IPG (page 27) says that on a FAILED resonance, that the Detect Lies skill will pick it up. Anyone skilled in that will realize that they're lying. A Seraph resonating a Balseraph who fails a role will see the lie. A check digit of 6 can reveal that the liar is in fact, a Balseraph resonating the Seraph. So theoretically, a strong-willed mundane with detect lies might be able to spot the lies, but not the resonance. A strong-willed, very lucky and perceptive Seraph might spot the Resonance, too. Mind, if the Seraph is taken in by a successful resonance, it won't believe or notice it's Truth-detecting Resonance, because the Balseraph resonance is clouding the Seraphic perception. .. >Question: Can Krono's Impudite of Fate choir attunement be used on >Celestials? Nothing I have seems to suggest a Yea of Nay on that one. I'd tend to say "Yes" but most Celestials have enough past to make the poor Impy be VERY, VERY busy sorting it out for a while. A Celestial might notice this, too. Conversely, if it was that easy for his demons to find out things about angels, he wouldn't need to interrogate Fallen ones, to find out plans. A touch would be enough. .. >Question: Can Krono's Fated Future attuenement be used on Celestials? I can't imagine why not. Most Celestials would probably have pretty straightforward Fates, though. (Sample, Angel: Fall and end up working for X) (Demon: Work for X in hell, and bring more people to X fate) .. >Question: Can a Malakite's Resonance be used on Celestials? Absolutely, oh my, yes, no questions about it. The APG details this briefly on page 48 or so. The example listed is "if firing a postol was someone's most ignoble act of late, this strongly suggests an angel of Stone who's been dissonant." It also mentions that most Archangels have a Malakim or two for their internal policing force. These Malakim would use their resonances on fellow Servitors, looking for things that might cause dissonance, and either correct them personally, or report them for correction. I imagine this as a favored trick of Dominic. Micheal, Elohim of Eidetic Memory, in service to Jean ~~~ We had our questions So much we wanted to know. Where were the answers? ~~~ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 06:50:07 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Re: angels and demons, killing. (LONG) At 22:32 15/09/98 PDT, you wrote: > A >really< perceptive Celestial >will notice the death of a SINGLE human at 400 yards away. (Which is >nearly a kilometer, for you non-American types) > It's about half a click, I think. jo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:01:19 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Re: angels and demons, killing. (LONG) On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Jo Hart wrote: > At 22:32 15/09/98 PDT, you wrote: > > A >really< perceptive Celestial > >will notice the death of a SINGLE human at 400 yards away. (Which is > >nearly a kilometer, for you non-American types) > > > It's about half a click, I think. One yard is pretty close to 0.9m, so 400 yards~=360m, which is a bit over a third of a kilometer. (1000m=1km, for those who didn't know.;) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:16:06 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: RE: IN> Titanic adaptation -- Cal's Destiny/Fate? [long discussion snipped] IMO, your Destiny doesn't have to be -good-, it's just the best you'll be. Someone's Destiny could be to live a pretty shitty life and then die at 20, because anything else would be worse. But then others might look at this some other way. Anyway, what if Cal had to go through all that to reach his Destiny? Perhaps he really needed to be kicked down to the bottom to be able to crawl back up into the light? We don't know. As to whether suicide is bad or not, IN doesn't say. Sometimes IN agrees with Christian values, but many Archangels promote things that goes rigth against sunday school - Eli thinks casual sex is good, as long as it's consensual, and Janus likes stealing and blowing things up. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:53:49 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: IN> 100% prophet I just got a flash of an interesting idea for an adventure, or possibly a campaign, and since I'm a generous sould, I'll share it with you. :) The PC:s' Supes have been informed by Yves/Kronos that a certain person is - -very- important to the Destiny of the world. Incredibly important. If you want to do a historical campaign you could place it in a certain easterly Roman province around, say, 2000 years ago, or something like that. :) Anyway, for some reason, Yves has chosen to inform only these Superiors and no others. The Supes have been told that the PC:s should be put on the task of guarding and guiding this person, and that they must only be told that this person is Important - the Supes are not allowed to give the PC:s orders on how they should go the guiding and guarding, and that it's vitally important that they cooperate. If you don't go with the suggested historical scenario, find some other time and place that has a great potential for conflict and/or general misery. Today Afghanistan or Liberia might be good choices, as long as the GM knows anything about what's going on there. The important thing is that this person, to whom I will refer to as P in the future, to save my fingers from all this typing, should grow up in an environment with plenty of conflict and injustice. (Depending on how you want to do this the PC:s can show up when P has been concieved, born, turned ten, gotten married, whatever, as long as he/she hasn't become a well-known public figure.) So, the PC:s get dumped there. What next? That's up to them... If they try to get more info out of their Supes, they'll just get icy stares and be told to do it in the way they find best (which might be very disorienting for one of Jean's angels). If Yves or Kronos are asked about the subject, they'll be even more tight-lipped. Yves will just smile that incredibly annoying enigmatic smile, and Kronos will tell them to go back and do their Goddamned job instead of moping around in Hell. The characters will have to decide a few things among themselves. Should they reveal themselves as angels/demons/some other kind of supernatural being? Exactly how far should they take the "guarding" bit? A servant of David will probably have a very different view on this from one of, say, Novalis. And the guiding? What's that mean, anyway? If there are any angels of Destiny/demons of Fate in the group and they try to get a peek at P:s respective possibilities, the angel/demon will be overwhelmed by an incredible feeling of peace/joy/brilliant light, or despair/rage/soul-consuming darkness. No specifics, no details. If they try to do this on people around P (smartass players will come up with anything), where P should be there is only this figure of light/darkness, depending on the affiliation of the celestial doing the resonating. If the PC:s keep things low-key they can probably keep other celestials out of the picture, at least for a while. But when/if P becomes a public figure (which he/she will, unless the PC:s stop it, which might not be a good idea) others will start to take notice... Problems: The PC:s might have to get stricter rules if the GM feels that his players might do things like locking P up in a basement for forty years, "To protect him/her from the evil ways of the world". For example, they might only be allowed to interfer if asked to; they may not tell P they aren't human unless directly asked; they may not tell other celestials (including Superiors) what is going on... If they try to do it anyway, hit 'em with dissonance, or whatever you use to keep your players in line. If you're feeling really evil, and have players who won't ditch the game from GM interference, tell them that they just -can't- - the words won't get out, they suddenly can't move etc. If they look around carefully they might notice an elderly man nearby, who looks remarkably like Yves/Kronos, giving them a sad/angry look. This can be played either as a continuous thing, or as a set of scenes at different points in time. It could span over just a few critical days, or for the whole of P:s life. Depending on this, it could be played in an evening, or over a long campaign. If things go very much one way or the other for P, the whole world will be changed, which might not make this a good adventure to run in an existing campaign, unless you fix things so that nothing really big will happen, but that would be evil. Not that it would keep me from doing it... :) Pick it apart. Boo and hiss. Throw rocks at me. See if I care. :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:11:47 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> A new way to compute disturbance...? John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > > characters more info, though. It might also work to say that the info you > > get on an auto-success is either your CD, or half your Per, whichever is > > better. > > That's _exactly_ the system I recommended! (Well, almost exactly, but the basic idea was the same...) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2613 MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:55:38 PDT From: "Steve Marco" Subject: [none] Quick Question Regarding the Cherub of Destiny theory on Jack from Titanic: Didn't he have an affair with a mortal? wouldn't that be dissonant, or at the very least grounds for trial by the Celestial Inquisition? Just a Thought, Thanks! Steve Marco ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:15:51 -0500 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Resonance Questions (help!) Micheal Knight wrote: > >Question: Can a Malakite's Resonance be used on Celestials? > > Absolutely, oh my, yes, no questions about it. The APG details this > briefly on page 48 or so. The example listed is "if firing a postol > was someone's most ignoble act of late, this strongly suggests an > angel of Stone who's been dissonant." It also mentions that most > Archangels have a Malakim or two for their internal policing force. > These Malakim would use their resonances on fellow Servitors, looking > for things that might cause dissonance, and either correct them > personally, or report them for correction. I imagine this as a favored > trick of Dominic. It's also the _other_ reason why Malakim are popular as members of a Dominican Triad, the first reason, of course, being in case you try to resist... Resistance is usually seen as a sign that you have something to hide. *g* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:15:39 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- Resonance Questions (help!) >From: "Micheal Knight" >Subject: IN> Re: IN- Resonance Questions (help!) >Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 22:50:06 PDT > >>Good day all, > > Hello, yourself. :) >>Question: if a Balseraph attempts his Resonance on a target and that >>target successfully resists, do they realize anything's happened? > >*whips out rulebooks, thinks about paraphrases* > > Lesee, the IPG (page 27) says that on a FAILED resonance, that the >Detect Lies skill will pick it up. Anyone skilled in that will >realize that they're lying. A Seraph resonating a Balseraph who >fails a role will see the lie. A check digit of 6 can reveal that the >liar is in fact, a Balseraph resonating the Seraph. Ahh... Cool. > So theoretically, a strong-willed mundane with detect lies might be >able to spot the lies, but not the resonance. A strong-willed, >very lucky and perceptive Seraph might spot the Resonance, too. > > Mind, if the Seraph is taken in by a successful resonance, it won't >believe or notice it's Truth-detecting Resonance, because the >Balseraph resonance is clouding the Seraphic perception. Yup. >.. > >>Question: Can Krono's Impudite of Fate choir attunement be used on >>Celestials? > >Nothing I have seems to suggest a Yea of Nay on that one. I'd tend >to say "Yes" but most Celestials have enough past to make the poor >Impy be VERY, VERY busy sorting it out for a while. A Celestial might >notice this, too. > >Conversely, if it was that easy for his demons to find out things >about angels, he wouldn't need to interrogate Fallen ones, to find >out plans. A touch would be enough. OTOH, being able to appear to possess so much knowledge with explanable reason (granted by the Imp of Fate attun.) would certainly reflect Krono's nature. He might still question the Fallen One in order to keep appearances or just to see how they are willing to tell him. :) >.. > >>Question: Can Krono's Fated Future attuenement be used on Celestials? > >I can't imagine why not. Most Celestials would probably have pretty >straightforward Fates, though. (Sample, Angel: Fall and end up working >for X) (Demon: Work for X in hell, and bring more people to X fate) > >.. > >>Question: Can a Malakite's Resonance be used on Celestials? > > Absolutely, oh my, yes, no questions about it. The APG details this >briefly on page 48 or so. The example listed is "if firing a postol >was someone's most ignoble act of late, this strongly suggests an >angel of Stone who's been dissonant." It also mentions that most >Archangels have a Malakim or two for their internal policing force. >These Malakim would use their resonances on fellow Servitors, looking >for things that might cause dissonance, and either correct them >personally, or report them for correction. I imagine this as a favored >trick of Dominic. Okay, cool So, the Malakim would certainly pick up dissonant acts as acts of dishonor. That helps. - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:37:01 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: IN> Titanic: Cherub affairs On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Steve Marco wrote: > Quick Question Regarding the Cherub of Destiny theory on Jack from > Titanic: > Didn't he have an affair with a mortal? wouldn't that be dissonant, or > at the very least grounds for trial by the Celestial Inquisition? I wouldn't think so. Remember that Eli's angels regain Essence through sex - being intimate with humans may not be encouraged by Heaven, but there aren't any rules against it either. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:01:27 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> discord At 6:04 PM -0400 9/15/98, Smithlopez@aol.com wrote: >When an angel fails a discord role does the angel lose any discord, or do they >just become an outcast with x amount of discord. What about Malakim when they >fail a discord role do they lose three points from the total discord. When an angel does something dissonant, it rolls, trying to get at least one die at the level of *current dissonance* (not counting that action) or above. (for the first dissonant action, you have to get at least a 0 on at least one of 3 dice. for the second dissonant action, you have to get at least a 1. for the 3rd dissonant action, you have to get at least a 2 -- but 111 is always good for angels!) If you fail a dissonance roll, and you're an angel, you go Outcast. If you fail a dissonance roll, and you're Outcast, you Fall. If you have 3 notes of dissonance, before you do that 4th dissonant action, you can trade those 3 notes of dissonance for one level of Discord. Your dissonance is now reset to 0, but you have a Discord, which can only be removed by a Superior. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:10:24 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> angels and demons; dissonance At 12:28 AM -0300 9/16/98, Felipe Pereira wrote: >What could cause dissonance for an angel or a demon except their choir/band >restriction and the word of their archangel/prince? Angels using the Rites of a Prince get dissonance each time they use the Rite. Aside from that, I can't recall anything else in canon off the top of my head. >I have some problems with that because sometimes I think my players aren't >playing their characters well. Demons kill lots of people if there is no >Celestial around, and sometimes angels do the same!! Enforce the disurbance rules (killing humans is disturbance per 4 points of damage (see errata) to human, +10, +human's Forces -- CUMULATIVE WITH ALL OTHER DISTURBANCE!), and have their Superiors get ticked if they have to bail them out of ground zero from a Malakim/Calabim attack! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:13:37 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- angels and demons; dissonance At 11:21 PM -0500 9/15/98, Perry Lloyd wrote: >>What could cause dissonance for an angel or a demon except their >choir/band >>restriction and the word of their archangel/prince? > >Hey, man, you're the game master. If you feel a demon or angel isn't >being true to their nature or to their word, slap them some dissonance. >That'll make 'em think twice about it. Though you should probably tell the players what behavior is expected first (or at least give them 'warning signs' of dissonance so they can back off!), or you're gonna have unhappy players! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:16:47 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Resonance Questions (help!) At 11:28 PM -0500 9/15/98, Perry Lloyd wrote: >Good day all, > >Question: if a Balseraph attempts his Resonance on a target and that >target successfully resists, do they realize anything's happened? If mundanes, nope. If Aware... probably give a Perception roll, yes. (Sorta like for Impudites.) >Is there anything canon concerning this? I have this sinking feeling that the answer is: Not Yet. >Question: Can Krono's Impudite of Fate choir attunement be used on >Celestials? It's the past -- I'd say yes. >Question: Can Krono's Fated Future attuenement be used on Celestials? This and Divine Destiny are both iffy. In our game, we decree that Fate is Falling/becoming a Prince while Destiny is redemption/becoming an Archangel. (Or Wordbound, or maybe even 'loyal Servitor of x'.) OTOH, you could get more specific.... >Question: Can a Malakite's Resonance be used on Celestials? Definitely -- how else would they detect Balseraphs? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:28:39 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: IN> Re: your mail On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Steve Marco wrote: > Didn't he have an affair with a mortal? wouldn't that be dissonant, or > at the very least grounds for trial by the Celestial Inquisition? Depends on your campaign. Different GMs view Judgement very differently, anywhere from 'hyenas' looking for an excuse to try and punish angels to firm but fair angels devoted to stopping further Falls to a political power searching to further the Word fo Judgement to really hard-assed but fundamentally reasonable people keeping angels from misbehaving and the intra-Heaven squabbles down to a reasonable level. It wouldn't get you in trouble in the campaign I'm playing in. A persnickity Triad - and they're almost all persnickity - would ask questions about the affair and take careful notes, but it would never go any farther than Judgement putting this in their records unless the human had suffered or there was some other good reason. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:30:14 -0400 From: Brandon Quina Subject: Re: IN> Titanic adaptation -- Cal's Destiny/Fate? > >On the other hand, he survived the Titanic disaster. > > True, but had he died, then he wouldn't have fufilled either his Fate > or his Destiny. Remember, he had to tread towards his Fate by lying to > get on that boat with the baby. Didn't he assault someone as well? I thought the official view on the dissonance condition was that the Servitor of Yves had to 'knowingly' push a subject towards his fate-- ie, he had to have used the Divine Destiny attunement on the subject, and then done something that he knew was 'bad'. The actual action that pushes the person over dosnt have to have been done for the purpose of pushing him toward his fate, nor purposeful, but once you've divined someones destiny and fate, any action YOU take that results in moving THAT person towards his fate gives you dissonance. So if he used his Divine Destiny on Kate Winslet, and found out that her fate was connected to being married to Cal, he wouldnt *beable* to let her go through with it with incurring dissonance. Rather or not this involves Cals fate is immaterial unless the angel had also used Divine Destiny on him too. If Servitors of Destiny would be able to do very little in the corporeal world without dissonance. Ohh, and before anyone mentions that this makes serving Yves 'easier' because you can avoid dissoance. So? Eli dosnt even HAVE dissonance conditions, and angels of michael can always just never retreat from a battle. Though if the angel is acting really badly for no good reason, id give him dissoance, even if he DIDNT use divine destiny.. Brandon, ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:38:33 -0400 From: Brandon Quina Subject: Re: IN> Titanic: Cherub affairs > I wouldn't think so. Remember that Eli's angels regain Essence through > sex - being intimate with humans may not be encouraged by Heaven, but > there aren't any rules against it either. Having KIDS with mortals, through the use of the Song of Fruition, though, would involve the Celestial Inquisition if it was found out. I wouldnt give the Angel dissonance, though, unless it was for some other reason (Elohim would have to have a good, logical, reason to have kids-- for example) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:05:39 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: IN> Hymn Before Action I found this Kipling poem to quite helpful in characterizing the archangel Michael in my game. (This and the Battle Hymn of the Republic are my "character sheet" for Michael. Laurence gets Mallory.) - -*-*-*- Hymn Before Action The earth is full of anger, The seas are dark with wrath, The Nations in their harness Go up against our path: Ere yet we draw the blade, Jehovah of the Thunders, Lord God of Battles, aid! High lust and froward bearing, Proud heart, rebellious brow -- Deaf ear and soul uncaring, We seek Thy mercy now! The sinner that forswore Thee, The fool that passed Thee by, Our times are known before Thee -- Lord, grant us strength to die! For those who kneel beside us At altars not Thine own, Who lack the lights that guide us, Lord, let their faith atone! If wrong we did to call them, By honour bound they came; Let not Thy Wrath befall them, But deal to us the blame. From panic, pride, and terror Revenge that knows no rein -- Light haste and lawless error, Protect us yet again, Cloke Thou our undeserving, Make firm the shuddering breath, In silence and unswerving To taste Thy lesser death. Ah, Mary pierced with sorrow, Remember, reach and save The soul that comes to-morrow Before the God that gave! Since each was born of woman, For each at utter need -- True comrade and true foeman -- Madonna, intercede! E'en now their vanguard gathers, E'en now we face the fray -- As Thou didst help our fathers, Help Thou our host to-day. Fulfilled of signs and wonders, In life, in death made clear -- Jehovah of the Thunders, Lord God of Battles, hear! - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #948 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.