From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Jan 4 00:03:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA01263 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 00:03:35 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id XAA20523 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 23:47:07 -0600 Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 23:47:07 -0600 Message-Id: <199901040547.XAA20523@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1077 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, January 3 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1077 In this digest: IN> Dresneresque History IN> Re: eeyore's inebriated post! :-) IN> Re: some replies Re: IN> Liber Canticorum (Can there be spoilers? These might IN> IN Charity Auction playlet IN> Liber Servitorum Question IN> Liber S. Contest updates... IN> Maya - (WAS: IN Charity Auction playlet) IN> More Liber Servitorum stuff Re: IN> Word Conflict Re: IN> Accept Credit Cards!!! Re: IN> Liber Servitorum Question IN> Liber Canticorum - My pretty new toy! IN> Death (by Switchblade-Wielding Rabbit) to Telephone Solicitors Re: IN> Death (by Switchblade-Wielding Rabbit) to Telephone Solicitors IN> Re: IN- Liber Canticorum (Can there be spoilers? These might IN> Re: IN- Liber S. Contest updates... IN> Re: IN- Word Conflict IN> Re: IN- Liber Servitorum Question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 13:44:47 -0600 From: Brent Subject: IN> Dresneresque History >everything I know about the Templars >I learned from Emily Dresner. I'm half-curious how many other people on >this list are in similar straits with regard to the Templars... The Templars, Egypt, and a few other things. I've probably learned more about history from Ms. Dresner on this list than from most of my studies.... at least as far as the *interesting* historical stuff goes. Take a bow, Emily, and write an IN historical supplement. I'd love to see what you could do. - -Brent, the Demon of Running Red Lights, Djinn of Recklessness ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 11:48:00 PST From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> Re: eeyore's inebriated post! :-) "Since we've had someone on the list recently who decided to discuss the negatives of David Edelstien as a member of the IN community…" Do they mean me - they surely do! I guess you must, considering we've spoken privately and I don't recall anyone else here had a belly full o' bile! If you are referring to someone else then please ignore the rest of this post! The Martin is your friend, Have A Nice Day! "I would never let Mr. Edelstein be in charge of anything unsupervised." Aahhhhhhhh! *Biting my tongue!* Okay, let's get serious (to quote Frank Zappa); in addressing me, you have MISSED the point. This is frightening because I have made it so many times. But if you'd like I'll say it again: I have never questioned the quality of the books or the information within them. That was never even an issue. "Since we've had someone on the list recently who decided to discuss the negatives of David Edelstien as a member of the IN community" Hmmm, that doesn't sound like me either. Although it didn't stop David Edelstein from discussing the negatives of Martin Arnold! One of us is mistaken here. Martin ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 11:48:47 PST From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> Re: some replies "For the benefit of the bile guy, I will point out that the majority of the book is directly useful information." You can call me Martin, if you like! J And I doubt it's just me that'll benefit from your review, or indeed anyone else's! (David shouldn't you be complaining about the release of saleable material here? Just because it's officially released doesn't mean people should be giving it away free now does it?) "Sorry for bringing up this thread again; I was going to take it to private email, but then realised some of what I was saying might have some vague interest to others. I may, of course, be totally wrong." Why are you apologising; it's relevant isn't it? I think this is as appropriate a place as any, don't you:? "and you nearly almost always have a Distinction at this point, which implies that Distinctions start get handed out a fair bit before that level." Actually that's not how I read it, nor what I have been working with. I had read it as the seneschal's reward for establishing a link to Heaven/Hell. By this I mean that the bottom line seneschal (12 force) got his distinction for 'creating' the tether (maybe discovering is a more suitable word) which was his first. Like I aid before I have two categories of seneschal; lesser and greater. For simplicities sake lesser seneschals are those with 12 forces and their first distinction (also a reward), greater ones are those with 15 forces and their third distinction. His is in general, there are always exceptions. I think 12 forces is early enough to gain a distinction, but it would have been nice to know what the designers intent was here. Don't want gm's making their characters too much too soon eh! Martin ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 15:32:29 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Liber Canticorum (Can there be spoilers? These might Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >At 4:23 PM -0500 1/2/99, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: >>Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> >>>Lilith is, as usual, a special case. I have generally regarded that >>>trick of hers as something like a modified Geas. But yes, I took that >>>into account when I was coming up with that notion that dissonance >>>conditions and Hearts are connected. >> >>So no other Prince can do this? > >I would think that she's the Geas-mistress. Besides, why would they >want to? I can easily see Asmodeus or Malphas doing this IMC at least, if for no other reason than to stir up a paranoia. And who knows what their *real* reasons are? (Can't you see a corp of infernal political officers, with both Baal and Asmodeus's dissonance? I can.) Beth wrote: > >The other option, you see, is to say that *no one* can be a Servitor >of Freedom, which doesn't entirely work out either. (And if Dissonance >isn't in the Heart, then you *cannot* have Renegade Gamesters who aren't >puddles of Discord in about three days flat, and *that's* kind of wonky >right there...) and Jo wrote: > >I think it makes outcasts/ renegades work better if you say that a >superior's dissonance conditions won't give a celestial dissonance if it has >no heart. (ie. once your heart breaks, you can only get dissonance from >choir/ band conditions). I don't think that's necessary. Here's one possible metaphysical explanation, along with a set of mechanical results that map to what I think you're saying is necessary. When a accepting the Rites and dissonance condition of a Prince, the demon basically partakes of the Prince's nature in exchange for part of his (or her) power. Essentially, the Prince attaches a piece of his or her soul to the demon who enters his or her service. This is a two way street, with possibility of harm running in both directions. If the demon goes against the Prince's nature, then he or she will suffer dissonance, because they share their Prince's nature. The Prince will also suffer some celestial damage from this, which is why they are especially cruel to chronically dissonant Servitors. Now, the shared connection between the Prince and the Servitor means that a Prince can find chronically dissonant Servitors, and hunt them down. A sufficiently desperate demon, on the outs with his boss and with no prospect of papering over the breach, can tear away the Prince's soul-graft and accept the injury in exchange for escaping his Prince's eye. This is extremely traumatic for the demon -- the Discord of the Renegade is the result of its act of self-mutilation. For the Prince, it's worse: the piece of its self that it tied to the demon is (almost always) cast into the void and lost. This is why the Princes hunt down Renegades without any mercy whatsoever. Now, demons are a restless and unruly lot: even the most dim-witted and easily manipulated Servitor can rip away its harness in a blind fury. So the Princes invented the demonic Heart. They keep a piece of the demon's soul in their dark citadels, and as long as they have it the demon cannot escape from their Prince's dissonance condition. (The piece of the demon's soul in the Heart is also what enables it to easily find its way between Hell and Earth.) So now a prospective Renegade must travel to its Prince's domain and physically seize its Heart before it can tear away the bond. Lilith refuses to make use of Hearts, claiming them to be an instrument of slavery. Her Servitors, she says, are free to approach her at any time and end their service to her. Naturally, Lilith demands a geas to do this, as "recompense for her time." This means that any demon in Lilith's service *can* go Renegade from her simply by tearing away her soul-shard and taking three levels of Discord. But doing this is a good way to ensure that Lilith will hunt the Renegade with an obsessiveness exceeding Asmodeus's, and when she catches the miserable wretch, that demon will be given to Asmodeus and Nybbas for a week-long televised torture and execution. No one steals from her, and no one at all damages her soul and gets away with it. How's that? (If you're interested, I can do something similar explaining the angels....) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 21:51:44 GMT From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: IN> IN Charity Auction playlet Well, I wouldn't want to spam the list, so I'll just enclose this clip. - --- [All is busy in NYBBAS' headquarters in Perdition. Eager demons hang on his every word, and a 40-part soundtrack plays in the background] NYBBAS : Okay, guys. Minions. Cute slave-like entities. Best buds. Do we have the okay on the moolah? CHROME BALSERAPH : [ticks off item on his clipboard] Moolah is go, Boss. NYBBAS : Location? CHROME BALSERAPH : [ticks off another item] Location is go, Boss. NYBBAS : [striding up and down] Cameras? CHROME BALSERAPH : Coming out the wazoo, Boss. NYBBAS : Public pronouncement. Pipe this over the overhead network. You can never have too many cameras. [demons type frantically on the computer banks at the wall, and suddenly alll the television screens show NYBBAS' face intoning, "You Can Never Have Too Many Cameras," on infinite loop] NYBBAS : Invitations? CHROME BALSERAPH : [ticks off another item] All typed and ready to be sent out, Boss. NYBBAS : Guest of honour? [all demons snicker sycophantically] CHROME BALSERAPH : Target of opportunity coming up in fifteen seconds, Boss... NYBBAS : Someone get me a live video feed. [a dozen demons leap to obey his command, and the television screens dissolve to give a view of...] (continued at http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~maya/nomine/auction.html) - --- Maya, Elohite of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 17:25:35 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Liber Servitorum Question How concerned should we be about including Attunements, Discords, Songs, etc. that are from supplement materials rather than the core book? - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) Whenever science makes a discovery, the devil grabs it while the angels are debating the best way to use it. [fortune cookie] ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:21:09 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Liber S. Contest updates... I'm hoping to get some feedback on Choir/Band and Superior combos that we haven't got many of. However, since I've been spending several hours on this, tidying up formatting bugs... Including ones from people who should know better. Okay, there's one bug in the HTML. I was calling a tab a and that was eaten by HTMLing. Now, to recap, for those who just aren't seeing this. I may have also forgotten to emphasize that if your emailer has any word-wrap options... MAKE SURE IT DOESN'T INSERT HARD CARRIAGE RETURNS AT THE END OF EVERY LINE, but only at the end of paragraphs. Either way, DO NOT use tabs in the text. Where you want to put a tab (outside of the @IN Stats: section, where tabs are *required*!), use an @Normal: tag. (I.e., put it at the beginning of every paragraph.) Tabs outside of the @IN Stats: section are only removed in the final pour *anyway*. >General Character format: > >(Note that there is *no space* between the -Head: or @Normal: and the >text that follows it. (Use exactly those capitalizations, too...) Also >note that in the IN Stats section, each characteristic is separated by >a TAB, not spaces. There should be no spaces there. If your emailer >inserts spaces for tabs, tell me. I am using CAPS as a placeholder for >a variable value. Do not fill in the NAME of a character in all-caps.) Right. That one. Up there. No spaces after the @Normal: and -Head: tags. NO ALL-CAPS FOR THE CHOIR/BAND OR THE NAME OR THE WORD. I'm just blessing MS Word (for a change) for having a "Change Case" command. >The rest of the character sheet should be in this format: And it means THAT format. Don't ascii-format the stuff with spaces or tabs (EXCEPT in between characteristics, where it says [TAB]). Don't use or . Capitalization counts! >@Normal:Vignette, if any. [Vignette is commonly placed here >in Cyclebooks; for the Liber Servitorum, it may be elsewhere in the >description.] > @IN Stats:Corporeal Forces - #[TAB]Strength #[TAB] Agility # > Ethereal Forces - #[TAB]Intelligence #[TAB]Precision # > Celestial Forces - #[TAB]Will #[TAB]Perception # Note: the hyphen and number of Forces go *inside* the end bold marker. Not outside it. >@Normal:Vessel(s): Vessel1/# (gender/description [e.g., Now, that (s) means that if your submitted character has one vessel, you write "Vessel: pig/4" and if it has two vessels you write "Vessels: pig/4, mongoose/1". Don't keep the parentheses. If you have a Kyriotate or Shedite, and it has no Vessel, then just *delete* that, and go on to the next. Don't forget the @Normal: tag, though! > @Normal:Role(s): Role Name1/#, Status/# Note that status has a slash in front of its level. Note that Role(s) should be the same as Vessel(s) -- if you have one Role, don't use the s. If you have more than one Role, take the parentheses out and write "Roles". If you have a Shedite or Kyriotate without a Role, delete this line, too, and go on to the next. Again, don't forget the @Normal: tag! >@Normal:Skills: [etc.] You *have* gone and looked at http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/stylesheet.html for the proper formatting of skills, RIGHT? You aren't giving me things where the specialization is in front of the "/#", right? You are putting spaces after punctuation in this section, right? You are remembering that it's Servitor for the Servitors of a Superior, right, and not servitor, right? >@Normal:Attunements: CHOIR/BAND SINGULAR of WORD, [etc], Do I need to repeat that I'm using CAPS as a placeholder, and I don't want to see ALL-CAPS in the submissions? >@Normal:The Rest Of The Description. As a clarification: use @Normal: at the beginning of every paragraph in the *DESCRIPTION*. (Not in the "@IN Stats:" area.) Another trivia note: the elipsis (...) is, in SJ Games format, done thusly . . . There is a space between each dot in it. A definition: a vignette is a *short story/scene/conversation*. It is not a description or history of the character. Further, the vignette should not begin: "Vignette: [blahblahblah]". It should begin: "@Normal:Blahblahblah" and end with another . (to close the italics). Within the vignette, use @Normal: instead of tabs. And while we're at vignettes, *watch your tenses*! I prefer past-tense, not present. ("They sat," not "they sit." "He ate," not "He eats.") At a minimum, don't combine them in the same vignette! A reminder: capitalization and plurals are very important to me. I've already seen an "a Habbalah" from someone who should have known better. Another reminder: watch the smartquotes! They are pernicious and do not translate as anything reasonable when I get them. I do *not* deal with them. I send them back to you and whine that you should have known better. If all you kind folks can manage to send me stuff that I don't have to spend great gory gobs of time fixing, I will be a much happier Djinn Princess. And the next time you see me, I won't hit you with a rolled up newspaper. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 18:42:22 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: IN> Maya - (WAS: IN Charity Auction playlet) Typical. Just a little snippet, and *zing* she owns your soul. Somehow, I almost feel pity for those of you lucky enough to have her as your GM. Especially after reading her expanded writeup on Malphas in FT, and Shedim in the IPG. *Shudder* > >Maya, Elohite of Eli in service to Blandine > >maya@tcp.co.uk > Yeah, right... Dreams, uh-huh... Sure it isn't Habbalah in service to Beleth? *grin* - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centuryinter.net # Balseraph Marquis of Fate, Demon of Delusions of Granduer ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:27:56 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> More Liber Servitorum stuff I have very few humans at the moment. If you have a brilliant human idea, the competition is less fierce there, than, say, Habbalah of Factions. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:44:50 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Word Conflict At 5:44 PM +0000 1/3/99, Warsinger wrote: >On Fri, 1 Jan 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> I dunno... Do you *really* want some loony Calabite/Balseraph >> running around Hell with sharp pointy objects, followed shortly by >> a deranged Malakite Archangel with sharp pointy objects? > >It'd be a good spectator sport though :) Well, yes, especially if you don't have to live there. Vision of David finally deciding to get rid of the little punk and sending a message to Lucifer. "C'mon. Make a Prince of the Sword. I dare ya." >(Odd - I don't normally like Nybas - all that spam must be affecting my >mind after all :) ) > >Still Laurence wandering around Hell is a bit unlikely - Gabriel manages >to restrain herself from causing Armegeddon despite the strain after all. True -- but she doesn't have any old Oaths about Never Suffering Evil To Live If It's Her Choice. >> I suspect that for various and sundry reasons, it's better to oppose >> Words with a Word that is opposite or skew. Your Prince is saner, >> and more likely to be able to *hurt* his (or her) opposite number. > >Yes - although of course there is also the matter of the (proably CDaU) >Archangel of Death.... Yes, there is that matter, and I have some ideas for how it might be handled, if he ever wanders out of CDaU territory. >> (And yes, I think that Belial is at least *distracted* by sharing >> a Word, and it is certain that though he hates Gabriel -- she has >> her own Ofanite of Fire attunement. How the heck does Belial hurt >> her with the very element they can both twist to their own whim?) > >Which is why Gabriel could beat him - she just isn't willing to give him >the satisfaction of her being taken down afterwards whilst weakened IMHO. >She could kill him with heat or radiation :) Steam sounds like fun too :) That too. The lesson of Vephar and Oannes and Belial is one to remember. >More seriously though (and less of me being a blatent Gabriel fangirl) I >just Belial as somewhat oblivious to the dispute - yeah he would go for >Her but in general he just doesn't seem to have the same level os passion >as Gabriel. That is also possible -- or Belial's too thick in the head to go nuts, whereas Gabriel was always connected with prophecy to a certain extent, and we know prophets are often vague, obscure and not connected entirely to reality. That, plus PMS, and Gabriel is explained nicely. (I can make PMS jokes. I get it.) >> (And Gabriel *was* functional up until about Islam...) > >Dominic did handle that whole matter rather badly... Stress. Very understandable. >> ...So you get the Prince of the Sword and the Archangel of the Sword >> hacking at each other in stalemate every time they meet until Michael >> shows up to lend an axe... > >Hmm again that doesn't really happen with Gabriel and Belial - they don't >seem to meet (quite likely that is arranged by Servitors plus other >Superiors who don't want Armeggedon before they are ready admittedly) The amount of disturbance the resulting Major Fire causes probably calls in other Superiors, who drag them, frothing and flaming, back to their respective celestial realms. >> Also, unless Lucifer handed out the Word and Princedom *very* quickly, >> the Archangel has an advantage in experience.[...] > >Which is why my suggestion had the new Prince being kept out the way in >the Lower Hells where he did his damage simply by being a painful noise in >the symphony - but the problem with that idea is that it's possible the >new Prince wouldn't have enough symphonic presence in that set-up. Right -- or that the amount of damage done would be negligable compared to the amount of power it takes to *make* a Prince. Lucifer isn't God. He probably doesn't have infinite power, any more than the Princes do. ("MommyBal, why are those demons herding those new damned souls into a tunnel that leads to the Lower Hells?") Heck, for all we know, not even God has infinite power. Just a lot of ascended humans... >> Also, I can just see the Seraphim Council smirking and saying, "C'mon, >> we dare ya. We double-dog dare ya. Make a Prince of Children. Make >> a Prince of Protection. Make a Prince of Revelations. Go ahead. Make >> Princes of selfless Words." > >Children - reminds me of that Demon I had going for that word -"There >aren't enough Children in Hell - that looks like a nice opportunity". Must >write her up for the list. Heh heh heh. >> I think that making someone a Prince is a sufficient expenditure of >> power that the Prince would need to be *useful* for more than giving >> an Archangel a dull nagging headache. Even for Lucifer. > >Yes. That was one the major objections to the idea - I knew it had a flaw >- I was just trying to work out if it was at all possible for a plot seed >I was working on. For your game, or non-canon suggestions to the list, do whatever sounds cool and entertaining. >> (Why, yes, I *am* in a strange mood.) > >Wow, you mean you're sometimes /not/ in a strange mood :) I'm permanently >in one :) Sometimes I'm in different strange moods. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:36:22 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Accept Credit Cards!!! At 9:38 PM +0000 1/3/99, Leath Sheales wrote: >Elizabeth wrote: > >> in an attempt to be witty, don't quote the *WHOLE BLESSED THING*. > >At the risk of seriously annoying Beth, I had to laugh after I read >this and realised she then quoted the "Whole Blessed Thing." Don't >worry, I won't as well. Oh, yeah, did I forget to send that to the poster, not the list? (Or rather, forget which one was going where?) Oiy! I *knew* that keyboard had something wrong with it. Shedite of Vapula, obviously. Good thing I swapped it back for my old reliable one! Oiy, oiy, oiy. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:26:08 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Liber Servitorum Question At 5:25 PM -0500 1/3/99, Perry Lloyd wrote: >How concerned should we be about including Attunements, Discords, Songs, >etc. that are from supplement materials rather than the core book? Any character should be useable with only the main book -- i.e., you can have stuff from other books, but don't make the character dependant on knowing what that other stuff is. If the GM can just ignore the parts he doesn't know, and the character is still usable, then no problem. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 21:34:31 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Liber Canticorum - My pretty new toy! >>>Since we've had someone on the list recently who decided to discuss the negatives of David Edelstien as a member of the IN community,<<< That's OK; my ego can take it, and I've yet to meet someone who can cope with the counterstrike. >:) >>>I think it's appropriate to note that many of the nice things about Liber Canticorum are attributable to his approach.<<< I'd like to say that I appreciate all your comments, both because you said nice things to feed my overinflated ego, and because you included well-articulated criticisms. >>>He has a clear view of where he wants to go and is rather uncompromisng in his approach to those who disagree with him; having once been on the receiving end of his barbs, I can attest to this.<<< Heh. >>>If I were the resident Djinn Princess (which, fortunately, I'm not) I would never let Mr. Edelstein be in charge of anything unsupervised.<<< Ya know, I've heard that before, not just about In Nomine. ;) But seriously, no one ever gets put in charge of anything unsupervised. Writers have editors, editors have Line Editors, Line Editors have Managing Editors, and Steve Jackson himself has to give the final say-so. >>>I probably wouldn't make him the editor of any book like those of the Revelations Cycle; there are too many opportunities for him to make explicit things that are best left Canon Doubt and Uncertainty.<<< What, you mean never let me introduce Jesus Christ as Lilith and Laurence's love-child? >>>This is the same as saying that he's guaranteed to piss people off.<<< Who, me? >>>Many of the same tendencies are why he's a very good person to put in charge of a nuts and bolts project like Liber Canticorum (and any similar books that follow). Under his guidance, a _rules_ book will have a focus and an underlying philosophy.<<< In all honesty, I agree with you for the most part. I have an excellent sense of where *I* think the In Nomine universe should go, which is why they listen to my opinions, but I also do stick to my views rather doggedly...which is a virtue and a flaw. But rules and organization are clearly my strengths, and it seems others at SJG agree with you, since I've been the editor of two of the most rules-heavy supplements and it seems likely those are the kinds of books they'll continue to assign me. >>>Still, I'm sometimes surprised thathe hasn't been asked to put a "The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of SJG" line in the signature portion of his posts.<<< Now and then, when someone bitches at me because they don't like what I say and accuse me of speaking for SJG, I do point out that I'm not an employee or spokesman for the company. But I don't need to put a disclaimer at the bottom of my posts. >>>And more write-ups like those of Baal would certainlybe appreciated.<<< Thank you. I'm really looking forward to getting my hands on some other Superiors in upcoming supplements. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 21:34:36 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Death (by Switchblade-Wielding Rabbit) to Telephone Solicitors >>>Dude, it's Haagenti. Telephone solicitors are just *gluttons* for punishment.<<< I swear I'm gonna do IN stats for Bun-Bun one of these days... - -David (if you don't get it, nevermind) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 21:51:56 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: Re: IN> Death (by Switchblade-Wielding Rabbit) to Telephone Solicitors >>>>Dude, it's Haagenti. Telephone solicitors are just *gluttons* for >punishment.<<< > >I swear I'm gonna do IN stats for Bun-Bun one of these days... > >-David (if you don't get it, nevermind) David, You're a sick-sick man. Who deserves to be sent to some Hell-zone. But, with our luck, Torg and Riff will wind up rescuing you... Though people will give you strange looks now that you're a) wearing a funky costume, b) speaking in Porteguese. For the -rest- of you, you will now sell your souls for the evil that is Sluggy Freelance, 'http://www.sluggy.com'. Worship the Comic. Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centuryinter.net # Technomancer, Six of Nine. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 23:57:20 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Liber Canticorum (Can there be spoilers? These might Neel writes: >>At 4:23 PM -0500 1/2/99, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: >>Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> >>Lilith is, as usual, a special case. I have generally regarded that >>trick of hers as something like a modified Geas. But yes, I took that >>into account when I was coming up with that notion that dissonance >>conditions and Hearts are connected. > >So no other Prince can do this? > >>I would think that she's the Geas-mistress. Besides, why would they >>want to? > > I can easily see Asmodeus or Malphas doing this IMC at least, >if for no other reason than to stir up a paranoia. And who knows what >their *real* reasons are? (Can't you see a corp of infernal political >officers, with both Baal and Asmodeus's dissonance? I can.) Yiurg... >Beth wrote: >> >>The other option, you see, is to say that *no one* can be a Servitor >>of Freedom, which doesn't entirely work out either. (And if Dissonance >>isn't in the Heart, then you *cannot* have Renegade Gamesters who aren't >>puddles of Discord in about three days flat, and *that's* kind of wonky >>right there...) > >and Jo wrote: >> >>I think it makes outcasts/ renegades work better if you say that a >>superior's dissonance conditions won't give a celestial dissonance if it has >>no heart. (ie. once your heart breaks, you can only get dissonance from >>choir/ band conditions). > >I don't think that's necessary. Here's one possible metaphysical >explanation, along with a set of mechanical results that map to >what I think you're saying is necessary. Metaphysical explanation of Rites and Dissonance stuffs, by Neel: >When a accepting the Rites and dissonance condition of a Prince, >the demon basically partakes of the Prince's nature in exchange >for part of his (or her) power. Essentially, the Prince attaches >a piece of his or her soul to the demon who enters his or her >service. > >This is a two way street, with possibility of harm running in >both directions. If the demon goes against the Prince's nature, >then he or she will suffer dissonance, because they share their >Prince's nature. The Prince will also suffer some celestial damage >from this, which is why they are especially cruel to chronically >dissonant Servitors. The Prince's nature being his Word, correct? >Now, the shared connection between the Prince and the Servitor >means that a Prince can find chronically dissonant Servitors, and >hunt them down. A sufficiently desperate demon, on the outs with >his boss and with no prospect of papering over the breach, can >tear away the Prince's soul-graft and accept the injury in exchange >for escaping his Prince's eye. > >This is extremely traumatic for the demon -- the Discord of the >Renegade is the result of its act of self-mutilation. For the Prince, >it's worse: the piece of its self that it tied to the demon is >(almost always) cast into the void and lost. This is why the Princes >hunt down Renegades without any mercy whatsoever. > >Now, demons are a restless and unruly lot: even the most dim-witted >and easily manipulated Servitor can rip away its harness in a blind >fury. So the Princes invented the demonic Heart. They keep a piece of >the demon's soul in their dark citadels, and as long as they have >it the demon cannot escape from their Prince's dissonance condition. >(The piece of the demon's soul in the Heart is also what enables it >to easily find its way between Hell and Earth.) > >So now a prospective Renegade must travel to its Prince's domain and >physically seize its Heart before it can tear away the bond. > >Lilith refuses to make use of Hearts, claiming them to be an >instrument of slavery. Her Servitors, she says, are free to >approach her at any time and end their service to her. Naturally, >Lilith demands a geas to do this, as "recompense for her time." > >This means that any demon in Lilith's service *can* go Renegade >from her simply by tearing away her soul-shard and taking three >levels of Discord. But doing this is a good way to ensure that >Lilith will hunt the Renegade with an obsessiveness exceeding >Asmodeus's, and when she catches the miserable wretch, that demon >will be given to Asmodeus and Nybbas for a week-long televised >torture and execution. No one steals from her, and no one at all >damages her soul and gets away with it. > >How's that? (If you're interested, I can do something similar >explaining the angels....) > >-- >Neel Krishnaswami >neelk@alum.mit.edu Some critique and another theory: Here's mine. When a Demon swears fealty to a Demon Prince, that Prince attunes the Demon to his Word (Gluttony, the Media, etc.) The purpose of a Heart is two-fold. First, it allows a DP to keep track of its servent and second, it allows its servent to return to Hell without having to tag-along with someone else (or use a Tether, I believe). But, I do not believe that the Heart has much to do with Dissonance and Rites and stuff. Rites, I see as being something which a Superior (sufficently powerful ethereals) can grant his servitors. Dissonance Condition is tied to one's Word. Thus a Lilim who serves both the Media -and- Freedom would have the Dissonance Conditions of each. Would it be possible for a celestial to serve two words? A Lilim of Freedom -and- Fire? A Calabite of the War -and- Death. :) But I would say a Demon can only have ONE heart. - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 00:16:34 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Liber S. Contest updates... >Another reminder: watch the smartquotes! They are pernicious and do not >translate as anything reasonable when I get them. I do *not* deal with >them. I send them back to you and whine that you should have known >better. Ummm... anyone can answer this, I don't mind: What are "smart quotes"? and if I don't know what it is do I need to bother with it? >If all you kind folks can manage to send me stuff that I don't have to >spend great gory gobs of time fixing, I will be a much happier Djinn >Princess. And the next time you see me, I won't hit you with a rolled >up newspaper. Ah! No! - -Perry, KFC Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 00:36:12 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Word Conflict >>Yes - although of course there is also the matter of the (proably CDaU) >>Archangel of Death.... IMC, there's the AA of Death and the DP of the Dead. Worked well till I read the expanded write-up of Saminga in Night Music. :) >>More seriously though (and less of me being a blatent Gabriel fangirl) I >>just Belial as somewhat oblivious to the dispute - yeah he would go for >>Her but in general he just doesn't seem to have the same level os passion >>as Gabriel. > >That is also possible -- or Belial's too thick in the head to go nuts, >whereas Gabriel was always connected with prophecy to a certain extent, >and we know prophets are often vague, obscure and not connected entirely >to reality. Gabriel is an Ofanite, therefore all her energy is within her, Belial is a Calabite, therefore his energy projected outside. Might this have something to do with it? >That, plus PMS, and Gabriel is explained nicely. (I can make PMS jokes. >I get it.) Good lord... "The PC's were watching the moon again, one of them thinks she's figured out Gabriel's 'cycle'" >>> (And Gabriel *was* functional up until about Islam...) >> >>Dominic did handle that whole matter rather badly... > >Stress. Very understandable. Heck yeah, stess compounded with social expectations. Research has shown that many women will not have PMS until they are told what it is (unfortunately for many, this is before menarche), also, one facinating study involved over 300 women. All were told by their doctors (gyns or whatever) when they would menstruating, but half weren't told the truth, so they *thought* they would be menstruating at a time when they actually weren't. All had PMS in proper time sequence with when they *thought* they would be menstruating, meaning it was more psychological than physioloical, of course, when it come to hormones and stuff the lines *really* blur so... Anyway... >Lucifer isn't God. He probably doesn't have infinite power, any more than >the Princes do. ("MommyBal, why are those demons herding those new >damned souls into a tunnel that leads to the Lower Hells?") Heck, for all >we know, not even God has infinite power. Just a lot of ascended humans... And animals and plants and planets and... :) >>> Also, I can just see the Seraphim Council smirking and saying, "C'mon, >>> we dare ya. We double-dog dare ya. Make a Prince of Children. Make >>> a Prince of Protection. Make a Prince of Revelations. Go ahead. Make >>> Princes of selfless Words." >> >>Children - reminds me of that Demon I had going for that word -"There >>aren't enough Children in Hell - that looks like a nice opportunity". Must >>write her up for the list. > >Heh heh heh. Yiurg... The Demon of Curropting Children, Then Killing Them Fate/Death >>> (Why, yes, I *am* in a strange mood.) >> >>Wow, you mean you're sometimes /not/ in a strange mood :) I'm permanently >>in one :) > >Sometimes I'm in different strange moods. :) Mood? What is this 'mood'? - -Perry, KFC Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 00:41:09 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Liber Servitorum Question ElizaBeth spake: >At 5:25 PM -0500 1/3/99, Perry Lloyd wrote: >>How concerned should we be about including Attunements, Discords, Songs, >>etc. that are from supplement materials rather than the core book? > >Any character should be useable with only the main book -- i.e., you >can have stuff from other books, but don't make the character dependant on >knowing what that other stuff is. If the GM can just ignore the parts >he doesn't know, and the character is still usable, then no problem. Okay, gotcha. :) - -Perry, KFC Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1077 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.