From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jan 5 03:30:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA27956 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 03:30:46 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id DAA15744 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 03:21:15 -0600 Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 03:21:15 -0600 Message-Id: <199901050921.DAA15744@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1079 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, January 5 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1079 In this digest: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade - Historical Accuracy Re: IN> Orphans Re: Force levels (was: Re: IN> the bile guy!) Re: IN> Death (by Switchblade-Wielding Rabbit) to Telephone Solicitors Re: IN> Canon question: Saints and Undead Re: R: IN> Baphomet und Templars + INRI IN> suggestions? Re: IN> Pronunciation Guide Re: R: IN> Baphomet und Templars + INRI Re: R: IN> Baphomet und Templars + INRI Re: IN> Maya - (WAS: IN Charity Auction playlet) IN> the demon headmaster (NPC) R: R: IN> Baphomet und Templars + INRI R: R: IN> Baphomet und Templars + INRI Re: IN> Maya - (WAS: IN Charity Auction playlet) Re: IN> suggestions? Re: IN> Liber S. Contest updates... Re: IN> Discord and Rites Re: R: IN> Baphomet und Templars + INRI Re: IN> Liber S. Contest updates... IN> Death (by Switchblade-Wielding Rabbit) to Telephone Solicitors Re: R: IN> Baphomet und Templars + INRI Re: IN> Word Conflict Re: IN> suggestions? Re: IN> Liber S. Contest updates... IN> Re: IN- Canon question: Saints and Undead IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- Liber S. Contest updates... Re: IN> Liber S. Contest updates... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 15:39 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade - Historical Accuracy [Catching up on my email after vacation -- this is replying to something from about a week ago....] >A lot of traffic on this list seems to be about fixing or explaining >things that are perceived as broken, or which could be broken if carried >to an extreme that's probably further than the designers imagined. I >also see this on the Traveller list, and it completely dominates the >Ars Magica list. (Is it that these games attract history and statistics >majors?) > >Are game companies now following the example of the computer software >industry, which regularly seems to release beta-level products, take >people's money for allowing them to quality-test it, and then put out >an update which actually works mostly as advertised? >(*cough*White Wolf*cough*) Actually, I think this has more to do with how stuff gets playtested. I don't think these sorts of complaints are common about GURPS material, also produced by SJGames, except maybe in the case of one or two *really* mechanics-heavy products (GURPS Vehicles comes to mind), and there it was organizational/usability problems in a very complex supplement, rather than accuracy issues. In fact, I think GURPS supplements generally have a reputation for being well-researched and fairly accurate, though there are some exceptions. Until recently, In Nomine material was playtested very differently from GURPS material (i.e., not very much), and I think this accounts for a lot of the problems. Playtesting style may also account for differences between companies, or it may be editorial policy as well. I do know that SJ *very* much prefers that any historical or scientific material in his games be well-researched and verified (usually by playtesters with relevant knowledge). For some reason, this policy doesn't seem to have held for In Nomine material, especially the early stuff. There's also a problem that the publishers and editors have in recognizing which writers *really* know their material, or will research it well. If the editor doesn't have personal expertise in a particular area (which is quite common), they're reduced to (1) trusting the writer and (2) hoping that they have playtesters with appropriate domain knowledge. I know it works this way because I was one of SJGames resources for technology stuff in GURPS playtest for a long time. >Perhaps it's just that a team of twenty or so game writers cannot hope >to produce and rigorously test anywhere near the amount of material that >a fan community of hundreds, many of them experts in various fields, >can. This is why a good group of playtesters is vital. I think this problem is now being addressed in In Nomine, but the impact is just beginning to be felt. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 15:46 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Orphans >I know there are Uriel's orphans, the Tsayadim. Are there >other orphans? Angels of Knowledge with no Raphael to report >to? Angels of Laughter who no longer report to Kobal now that >he fell from Laughter to Mockery? Angels of Light who no longer >report to Lucifer, but perhaps keep his Cathedral dusted off, >waiting for the end of the War, when a new Archangel of Light >might be appointed? The L.Castellorum includes at least one orphan, and mentions that Seneschals of dead Superiors are prone to this problem, especially if their Tether doesn't have any strong affinities for another Superior on that side. I believe it's also touched on in the IPG in the section on switching Superiors -- in some cases these orphans become "in service to" another Superior who can use their abilities as-is, and feel that re-attuning them would reduce their value. Presumably this would apply on the angelic side as well, but I'm not sure the APG touched on the issue. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 16:06 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: Force levels (was: Re: IN> the bile guy!) >So we know that Seneschals start after 12, and first-level Distinctions >happen at about 10-11. The next question is where the level-three >distinctions (Baron or Master) occur. Bearing in mind that the >difference in power between celestials of equivalent rank will still >exist (in fact, may be larger than at lower levels), this can't be right >at the top level, i.e. 18 Forces; if nothing else, this is probably >where the really top-level distinctions occur. So 15ish sounds about >right. There's no real reason why the two things have to strongly coupled -- one is a representation of how effective you've been at your job, the other is how personally powerful you are. It's true that the more powerful you are, the more likely you are to be effective *if* you apply your strengths to the areas where they're most effective. So it's possible (though unlikely) that a 9-Force celestial might have a 3rd-level distinction, because (a) they'd been lucky on a few assignments, (b) they'd applied themselves in tasks that played specifically to their strengths, and (c) they'd petitioned for distinctions instead of more Forces. Note that there's some advantage in having fewer Forces and more other goodies like attunements and distinctions -- you make less noise when going celestial, and with certain Songs. So a Superior may favor having a few of these "stealth powerhouse" characters, though the majority of distinctions are probably linked with increasing Forces as well. >Of course, you could just look through canon and look at the Force >levels for all the NPCs mentioned, but that would ruin the fun. Once you >account for oddities like the Old Guy, my suggested Force-levels match >up pretty closely with canon, as far as I can tell. Whether this is a >sign of design, rationality and consistency among SJG writers or >rationalisation on my part is an exercise left to the reader. I think it's partly luck, and partly that the writers try to use older canon as a guideline. Personally, I'd expect that the average Force level for a character with a first-level distinction would be around 11-12 Forces, second-level at around 13-14 Forces, and 3rd-level at around 15-16. I'd also expect most 13-Force characters would have earned a 1st-level distinction, or be in line for one soon. But there are no canon rules (or even guidelines) that I know of as yet. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 13:29:32 -0800 From: "B.H." Subject: Re: IN> Death (by Switchblade-Wielding Rabbit) to Telephone Solicitors GR Cogman wrote: > > >David Edelstein wrote: > >> I swear I'm gonna do IN stats for Bun-Bun one of these days... > >> -David (if you don't get it, nevermind) > > > >Jordi's servitor. Is the bunny not nifty? > > Outcast Malakite of Jordi (he liked Baywatch too much and the great grassy > outdoors too little), stuck with a lop-eared bunny vessel, with the > Proficiency (Switchblade and Heavy Weapon) attunement from Michael. > > How about Dr Lorna? > Impudite or Habbalah of Malphas. If she's an impudite, it's an interesting twist- she Charms the rest of the audience and not her target... > --- > > Maya, Elohite of Eli in service to Blandine > > maya@tcp.co.uk > > -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and > addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to > shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and > conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development > of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is > obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- > "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. - -- Brian A.H. "I am Don Arturo de Los Angeles. I am the greatest reader of all time. I have read over a million books in my lifetime, and their pages flow through my mind like summer days..." Phoenix Clan Purifier*Gaijin*Shugenja*ABC Geeky Shugenja Man*Totoroan L5R(1.1) PX+ S(LA) G++ R Y+ C+ E+ M-- T-- D++ K U+++ L5R(R1.3) GP++ (PR+++ CC++) RP+ GT:! P+ PX/LN+ S++ G+++ R Y+ C++ CG++ U+++ J---- ABC(1.0) PX/ABC++(ic, anyways. =)) S(LA) Y+ A++ D++ BO/OC!N!++++(nosebleed) P+++ U++ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 16:34 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Canon question: Saints and Undead >After buying (and reading) Night Music, it seems to me that Saints are >given similar status to undead. Both can use non-corporeal songs, and >are thusly more connected to the symphony, more so than mere mortals. > >Therefore can they purchase Choir Attunements? (page 31 of NM states >that mortals cannot, but does not say anything one way or the other >about the undead) I believe the current canon on Choir/Band and servitor attunements is: - celestials can have attunements for other Choirs/Bands *for their Superior only*, *iff* the attunement isn't resonance-dependent - celestials can buy attunements for *their* Choir/Band from other Superiors - anyone can get servitor attunements from anyone, though it's rare to get them from someone other than your own Superior. This still leaves open the question of corporeal entities, who definitely *can* get *servitor* attunements. I don't think there's a canon answer on this one. I'd say they shouldn't be able to get Choir/Band attunements at all -- they're not sufficiently "tuned" to a given Superior for that. In particular, they have no Heart and no Superior dissonance conditions, nor do they share any of the nature of a particular Choir or Band. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 15:58:49 -0600 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: R: IN> Baphomet und Templars + INRI Kevin Walsh wrote: > The Mamluks weren't Arabs. You probably mean Seljuks. The Mamluks weren't Arab either (at least most of them), but they weren't the ones defeating everyone in sight right then. J. Michael Neal, Obviously in service to Nitpicking right now, but looking for a way out ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 15:03:49 -0800 From: darkelf Subject: IN> suggestions? I have a very small budget, and even less bookshelf space...so of all the publications IN has put out, which do you-all-more-knowledgeable-than-I suggest? I have the primary handbook, Night Music, and The Marches at present...I'm not asking for info on-or-in the books, just learned opinions of what I should start with. Thanks, Kat - -- - ------------------------------------------------ Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try. -- Yoda Fall down seven times. Get up eight. -- adapted Japanese saying ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 17:18 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Pronunciation Guide >My pronunciations... (Canon? Ha!) (We gotta collect these and put >them somewhere.) ... >el-OH-ite, el-OH-im Actually I think we use "EL-oh-ite/im" or "El-Oh-ite/im" (minor stress on first two syllables, almost equal across all three) >KEER-ee-oh-TAH-tay, KEER-ee-oh-TAH-tays With, I think, slightly less stress on the first syllable than the fourth: "Keer-ee-oh-TAH-tay/tays" >MER-cur-i-an/mer-CUR-ian I use "mer-CUR-i-an", myself. >AHN-dray-AHL-fuss/AHN-dray-AL-fuss Slightly less stress on the first syllable than the third, actually, I believe. >sah-MEEN-gah I actually use "sah-MING-ah", I think. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 14:23:08 -0800 From: Greg Jensen Subject: Re: R: IN> Baphomet und Templars + INRI I don't know if this has been covered yet, but dies anybody know about the Merovingian dynasty, Rennes-le-Chateau, and how this could relate to IN? Greg Jensen http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~gjensen/gregpage.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 22:20:36 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: R: IN> Baphomet und Templars + INRI On Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 03:58:49PM -0600, Eeyore wrote: > > The Mamluks weren't Arabs. > > You probably mean Seljuks. The Mamluks weren't Arab either (at least most of > them), but they weren't the ones defeating everyone in sight right then. > At the time the Templars were disbanded? (1307, wasn't it?) Were the Seljuks even around at the time? It certainly was the Mamluks who kicked the Crusaders out of the Holy Land anyway. Baibars was one of the earlier Mamluk sultans, and he managed to take every Crusader stronghold bar Acre. And seeing as the Mongols didn't manage to beat the Mamluks, I very much doubt the Seljuks managed to take Palestine from them. I'm fairly certain the Ottoman Turks are significantly post-period, as well. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Warfare is the Tao of deception. Thus although capable, display incapability to them. When committed to employing your forces, feign inactivity. When [your objective] is nearby, make it appear as if distant; when far away, create the illusion of being nearby." -Sun Tzu, the Art of War. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 16:32:54 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: Re: IN> Maya - (WAS: IN Charity Auction playlet) >I certainly hope it's not plural Habbalah, but we *all* know that >Maya's an angel. Really! Habbalite... Really, I meant to say it. Please... *look of horror* Don't send Bun-Bun over... I promise to be good. Stay good Beth. Stay good. (As a reminder folks, please read your Stylesheets before you too have to face the wrath of the Demon Princess of Nitpicking. You'll like yourself if you did.) - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centuryinter.net # Balseraph Marquis of Fate, Demon of Delusions of Granduer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:50:07 -0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: IN> the demon headmaster (NPC) [This is based on a character from a set of children's books/ TV series. I liked it too much not to share :)] Mr. Peach Balseraph of Nightmares Cor 2 Str 4 Agil 4 Eth 3 Int 6 Pre 6 Cel 4 Will 10 Per 6 Vessel: Male/3 Role: Mr. Peach/4, Status/3 Skills: Tactics/2, Fast Talk/1, Dodge/1, Move Silently/1 Songs: Charm (Cel/3), Acid/3 Attunements: Balseraph of Nightmares, Dream Walking They laughed at him back in the Marches. They said that being principal of one small school was an unimportant posting. How wrong they were. The echoes of his footsteps along the corridors have made the weak- hearted faint with terror. The soft cold cadences of his voice have sent chills down the spine of hapless listeners. The hypnotic colours of his eyes have burned any thoughts of resistance from opponents. In short, Mr. Peach is a singleminded tyrant who will stop at nothing to control the hearts, bodies and feeble, malleable young minds which he is able to mould as he wills, and bully into submission -- and that's just the teachers. A nonentity with big ideas in Hell, he views his posting as the first step in what is surely fated to be a great and glorious career in the infernal ranks. His school is his personal testbed, his own private empire, and he rules it with a rod of iron. One day, he will rule the world with the same techniques -- on bad days he forgets that the school isn't actually the entire world. He demands that the school music teachers take the choir and win state cometitions (a subtle step in the world domination via school carol concerts plan.) He demands that the science teachers work overtime, through the night if necessary, to force their charges into new discoveries which can be sold at a profit. World domination takes money. He pushes the teachers into organising publicity winning stunts, so that he himself might get a few minutes of airtime in which to practice his Balseraph lies on a wider audience. Pupils at the school now know that there is no point telling their parents about the demonic headmaster who keeps them cowed into submission. Even the most aggressive parent will come out of the headmaster's office with glazed eyes and a clockwork nod, in total agreement with Mr. Peach. Not satisfied with simply controlling every aspect of his pupils and teachers waking lives, Mr. Peach also stalks their dreams, with his coat rippling like leathery wings and the hypnotic green eyes gleaming from six sockets. Even years after they have left the school and become pillars of society, former pupils sometimes wake up in a cold sweat with the memory of his ruler slapping against his wrist. So when he contacts them to use their new position to further his own plans, they shiver and accede. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 00:04:57 +0100 From: "Peter Wiggin" Subject: R: R: IN> Baphomet und Templars + INRI Kevin Walsh wrote: >If my memory serves, the Templars played no part in the Albigensian >Crusade, which was surely the ideal time for them to make a new nation in >Languedoc. I'm not sure about this point, but really I can't see any >support for that idea. (But then I belong to the boring mundanity rather >than the conspiracy theory school of history.) And they needed that money. >Crusading was a very expensive business. Oh, yes, Templars didn't take part in the Albigesian Crusade: they helped Albigesians! Many Albigesians eretic where accepted in the Order and Templars refused also to attack their cities. Again: the Master of the Temple declared that there was ONLY ONE CRUSADE, that on the Holy Land... and that the war against Albigesian was not a holy war. Considering lots of connection between Albigesian Noble Families and the Order... is not possible suspecting a join venture to make a nation? [Peter] "Cu" [Wiggin], Archangel of the Celts ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 00:10:17 +0100 From: "Peter Wiggin" Subject: R: R: IN> Baphomet und Templars + INRI Greg Jensen wrote: >I don't know if this has been covered yet, but dies anybody know about the >Merovingian dynasty, Rennes-le-Chateau, and how this could relate to IN? Yes, I am studying this facts, also the mistery of Bérenger Saunière and the incredible story of the paint "Le Bergeres d'Arcadie" by Poussins, whos seems incredibly similar to a real grave near Rennes-le-Chateau (containing the password for a treasure?... possible) and the mythic "ET EGO IN ARCADIA" = "I TEGO ARCANA DEI" (go away, i hide God's mysteries) written on it, but at the moment i am not ready to talk about it [Peter] "Cu" [Wiggin], Archangel of the Celts ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 18:14:41 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Maya - (WAS: IN Charity Auction playlet) At 4:32 PM -0600 1/4/99, Shadowstar wrote: >>I certainly hope it's not plural Habbalah, but we *all* know that >>Maya's an angel. Really! > > Habbalite... Really, I meant to say it. Please... *look of horror* >Don't send Bun-Bun over... I promise to be good. > > Stay good Beth. Stay good. What's this "*stay* good" stuff? > (As a reminder folks, please read your Stylesheets before you too have >to face the wrath of the Demon Princess of Nitpicking. You'll like >yourself if you did.) (I actually got one just now, from someone who shall remain nameless, whose character was so totally formatted that I only had to change *ONE THING*. The author used a P. ## for a page number instead of "p. ##". My heart is going pittypat!) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 18:43 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> suggestions? >I have a very small budget, and even less bookshelf >space...so of all the publications IN has put out, which do >you-all-more-knowledgeable-than-I suggest? I have the >primary handbook, Night Music, and The Marches at >present...I'm not asking for info on-or-in the books, just >learned opinions of what I should start with. Depends on what you are looking for.... I suspect the L.Canticorum will be a must-have for most everybody, partly because it's good, and partly because Songs are so useful (and nifty) in the campaign that having a larger selection is a big win. I also strongly favor the IPG (and the APG to a much lesser extent) as useful core books. To some extent, the APG and IPG duplicate coverage of the rules material included in them, though with an angelic/demonic slant. I favor the IPG for that, since it was done later, and is a bit clearer. Both give useful insights into the thinking of the Choirs/Bands, and how each side views history. The APG includes some rules expansions (some of the expanded resonances) that I (and other people) aren't terribly happy with, though. The L.Reliquarum is very good, but probably not essential. I believe the L.Castellorum (the Tether book that should be out very soon) will probably fall into that category for most people, as well. Both would contribute good stuff to a campaign, but you won't be missing out on anything that you can't make up yourself, with a little research, so they're probably secondary if you're on a tight budget. The other three Revelations Cycle books may be useful if you want the particular expanded Superior writeups in them. There's also some other miscellaneous useful stuff in FotM, like some expansion of the Geas rules, and the LA city writeup and characters may be useful. I'm not very fond of anything in Heaven&Hell, except the expanded Superiors (I feel much the same way about the Marches, and am iffy on Night Music as well, but you already have both of those). Final Trumpet is mostly adventure, plus the expanded Superiors. If you want the adventure, you'll probably want both FotM and FT, since the adventures in them are strongly linked. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 18:50:02 -0500 From: dahak Subject: Re: IN> Liber S. Contest updates... Oddly enough I have read the rules which is why I asked about those items which I tend to need most often, which do not appear in the current NPC format, when refereeing characters for this game. After all stats are nice but personality and motivations are what make characters live and these are one of the tools the games gives the referee. Not to mention that a large body of examples for them would help those of us who are bears of little brain. Adam Original message: At 5:49 AM -0500 1/4/99, dahak wrote: >What about Needs? Most and Least Honourable Acts? Destiny and Fate >[to name the most frequently resonated long term information about >characters] www.sjgames.com/in-nomine, in the news of the day. There's a list of the Rules for the contest (slightly HTML-buggy; see my other update comments). The three things that you mention do not have Official Placement. The GM probably has to make it up himself, or the author can cunningly slip hints into the description. Note the "cunningly" word. - - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 18:49:59 -0500 From: dahak Subject: Re: IN> Discord and Rites Maybe I'm being dim but I thought you only suffered dissonance once for each time you broke your dissonance conditions so If I disobey orders and become a renegade that's one note of discord in either case [possibly 2 if I was ordered not do go renegade as well as failing to carry out my current orders.] plus one for being a servant of the game helping a renegade i.e. me. Bad news admittedly but making them unplayable [the fact that the superior wants you stapled to a wall somewhere is what makes them unplayable. Compared with avoiding your ex comrades in the game or Laurence's Malakim death squads a little more dissonance isn't going to hurt much. Especially as all renegades and outcasts have been playing fast and loose with their dissonance conditions or they wouldn't be renegades and outcasts. Some of Gabriel's minions on the other hand might well have to punish themselves every so often or face dissonance.] Most of the above notes can be got rid of by either following your orders again if your that way inclined and if not well that's the cost for getting from under the thumb of one of the universes top three or four micro managers. Adam PS on rites as far as I could find there are mentions of not being able to use them but renegades who can't can become angels who can. Also the item on redemption as written says only that until you are fully tuned using demonic rites generates dissonance and that if you trip from it you automatically fall. Nothing about what happens to fully fledged angels with demonic rites. Original Message: Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:25:34 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Discord and Rites At 5:49 AM -0500 1/4/99, dahak wrote: >Isn't it simpler to assume that dissonance conditions are one of those >things that Superiors wire into their servitors as a feedback system >much as they give out rites [which generate essence for the Servitor >and possibly the Superior] as positive reinforcement for good behaviour. It would be, but it makes Renegades of the Game and the Sword even more unplayable than otherwise. > PS: It appears to be impossible to remove rites except insofar as >demonic renegades [but not redeemed] have no access to them. Is this correct? I think the notion was that Rites can be removed -- but any angel who uses them is getting what he deserves. Gotta have some self-control here, bucko. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:56:30 -0600 From: "James Bearse" Subject: Re: R: IN> Baphomet und Templars + INRI >I don't know if this has been covered yet, but dies anybody know about the >Merovingian dynasty, Rennes-le-Chateau, and how this could relate to IN? Personally, I think that the various material in GURPS: Illuminati and GURPS: Warehouse 23 did a great job of covering this stuff. (Mostly W23, come to think of it.) I had worked up an entire campaign based on Merovingian descendants seeking the San Greal in Revolutionary France. Enough blatant plugging. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 19:37:20 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Liber S. Contest updates... At 6:50 PM -0500 1/4/99, dahak wrote: >Oddly enough I have read the rules which is why I asked about those items >which I tend to need most often, which do not appear in the current NPC >format, when refereeing characters for this game. Considering that the deadline is, IIRC, the 10th, authors will have to make do with slipping the information into the description. (Darn it, nobody *else* suggested those during the scan of its Outline...) Authors who can slip such useful details into descriptions will be looked upon with favor. >After all stats are nice but personality and motivations are what make >characters live and these are one of the tools the games gives the referee. That's what the descriptions are for! >>What about Needs? Most and Least Honourable Acts? Destiny and Fate >>[to name the most frequently resonated long term information about >>characters] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 20:50:49 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Death (by Switchblade-Wielding Rabbit) to Telephone Solicitors >>>Jordi's servitor. Is the bunny not nifty?<<< Hell no. Bun-Bun is a Calabite. Probably of the War. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 20:05:57 -0600 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: R: IN> Baphomet und Templars + INRI Kevin Walsh wrote: > At the time the Templars were disbanded? (1307, wasn't it?) Were the > Seljuks even around at the time? It certainly was the Mamluks who kicked > the Crusaders out of the Holy Land anyway. Baibars was one of the earlier > Mamluk sultans, and he managed to take every Crusader stronghold bar Acre. > And seeing as the Mongols didn't manage to beat the Mamluks, I very much > doubt the Seljuks managed to take Palestine from them. I'm fairly certain > the Ottoman Turks are significantly post-period, as well. Brain cramp. I thought we were talking somewhat earlier. And in a last ditch effort to stake a claim to some Nitpicking, I'd say that it depends at least partially by whatone means by "Arabia". There were significant chunks of it that the Mamluks never managed to take back from the Mongols; Baghdad, for instance. At that time, of course, no one really cared who controlled much of what we now think of as Arabia. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 02:33:14 +0000 (GMT) From: Warsinger Subject: Re: IN> Word Conflict On Sun, 3 Jan 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > Well, yes, especially if you don't have to live there. > > > > Vision of David finally deciding to get rid of the little punk and > sending a message to Lucifer. "C'mon. Make a Prince of the Sword. > I dare ya." Hmm David, one of the Archangels I've always had trouble with. His Seraphim should be called Gnomes :) > > >(Odd - I don't normally like Nybas - all that spam must be affecting my > >mind after all :) ) > > > >Still Laurence wandering around Hell is a bit unlikely - Gabriel manages > >to restrain herself from causing Armegeddon despite the strain after all. > > True -- but she doesn't have any old Oaths about Never Suffering Evil > To Live If It's Her Choice. > Hmm, but it wouldn't exactly be a sound tactical move in the War - but then I'm really against having a Malakim running Heaven for precisely this reason. > >Yes - although of course there is also the matter of the (proably CDaU) > >Archangel of Death.... > > Yes, there is that matter, and I have some ideas for how it might > be handled, if he ever wanders out of CDaU territory. *Warsinger proves she is an angel by restraining herself from asking for information on unpublished stuff - with great difficulty* > That too. The lesson of Vephar and Oannes and Belial is one to remember. Shame about them - makes we want to play a historical game - be interesting finding out exactly what they were meant to be doing. > > That is also possible -- or Belial's too thick in the head to go nuts, > whereas Gabriel was always connected with prophecy to a certain extent, > and we know prophets are often vague, obscure and not connected entirely > to reality. Belial just being too lazy to do anything if I rem his writeup correctly for that matter. > > That, plus PMS, and Gabriel is explained nicely. (I can make PMS jokes. > I get it.) > Me too :( > >> (And Gabriel *was* functional up until about Islam...) > > > >Dominic did handle that whole matter rather badly... > > Stress. Very understandable. > Not convinced by that at all sorry. The Archangel of Judgement, especially given its Seraph nature should have known better. > Right -- or that the amount of damage done would be negligable compared > to the amount of power it takes to *make* a Prince. Yep. > For your game, or non-canon suggestions to the list, do whatever sounds > cool and entertaining. Oh of course, all my games are wild departures from canon, I just like to know what the canon version would be before I wander off. The point of canon being a good starting place. > > Sometimes I'm in different strange moods. Ah of course, my apologies. :) Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 23:05:05 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> suggestions? In a message dated 1/4/99 4:09:33 PM Central Standard Time, darkelf@ecentral.com writes: > I have a very small budget, and even less bookshelf > space...so of all the publications IN has put out, which do > you-all-more-knowledgeable-than-I suggest? I have the > primary handbook, Night Music, and The Marches at > present...I'm not asking for info on-or-in the books, just > learned opinions of what I should start with. > > Thanks, > Kat I'd say apart from the main book, none of them are truly, strictly necessary. The Liber Canticorum was Very useful. If your players like toys, get the Liber Reliquarum. The Angelic and Infernal Players Guides are useful and interesting, but far from necessary. Heaven and Hell is good, and the last two in the Revelations cycle are barely worth it, except for Superior write-ups. Probably not very helpful, but hey... Brian ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 20:22:38 PST From: "David Streeter" Subject: Re: IN> Liber S. Contest updates... Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:23:34 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Liber S. Contest updates... >At 5:49 AM -0500 1/4/99, dahak wrote: >>What about Needs? Most and Least Honourable Acts? Destiny and Fate >>[to name the most frequently resonated long term information about >>characters] > >www.sjgames.com/in-nomine, in the news of the day. There's a list >of the Rules for the contest (slightly HTML-buggy; see my other >update comments). > >The three things that you mention do not have Official Placement. The >GM probably has to make it up himself, or the author can cunningly >slip hints into the description. Note the "cunningly" word. It's probably too late to beg for this, but lists of resonance results would be VERY handy, particularly for humans. Perhaps a page or two for "quickie" NPC humans? ie. a table with one line per human, with resonance results and a very short description? These would be for the non-plot humans that celestials bump into, help out, siphon for essence, etc. The columns could be something like.. Name Sex Appearance (age + dress) Most Honourable Act Least Honourable Act Need Destiny Fate eg. Eugene Bland, M, Teenage computer geek, Repaired friends computer, Tortured cat when young, Girlfriend, Web designer for Red Cross, Porn site webmaster eg2. Kristi Wallis, F, Yuppie Barrister, Defended small business owner against a libel suit without charge, betrayed a colleague to get promotion, a fancy car, Consumer advocate, Lawyer for crime boss. The GM could use these as a starting point, and flesh them out as necessary in play. Surtur Habbalite of Factions, Angel of Constructive Criticism ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 23:29:07 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Canon question: Saints and Undead >I believe the current canon on Choir/Band and servitor attunements is: > > - celestials can have attunements for other Choirs/Bands *for their > Superior only*, *iff* the attunement isn't resonance-dependent > > - celestials can buy attunements for *their* Choir/Band from other > Superiors > > - anyone can get servitor attunements from anyone, though it's rare to > get them from someone other than your own Superior. > >This still leaves open the question of corporeal entities, who >definitely *can* get *servitor* attunements. I don't think there's a >canon answer on this one. > >I'd say they shouldn't be able to get Choir/Band attunements at all -- >they're not sufficiently "tuned" to a given Superior for that. In >particular, they have no Heart and no Superior dissonance conditions, >nor do they share any of the nature of a particular Choir or Band. > > >---Walter Hmmm... In _Night Music_: Amanda Dearling (soldier) has the Balseraph Attunement of Lust (pg 56), Mal Barker (mummy) has the Calabite of Saminga attunement (pg 61) Neither of those are included in the (on-line) errata as being incorrect. Page 31 states "Not being angels, soldiers and other mortals cannot purchase Choir Attunements." One could argue that if one is not an angel, one cannot have a Choir Attunement. Period. However, this sentence defines soldiers as being "mortals", comparing them to Angels (therefor "not-mortals"). But Saints and Undead are no longer considered "mortal" in game terms. Mortals have to purchase Toughness, rather than raise their Vessel level, as can the Undead (and Celestials and presumably Saints, NMpg31), Saints and Undead may use any kind of Song, not just Corporeal as "mortals" are limited to (w/o the required Attunement)(NMpp45,61,63), Undead regenerate Essence at the same time as Demons (INpg) though I do not know when Saints do. I'm not trying to build up evidence to attack anyone's position, merely to get to the root of what is established canon, and what isn't. :) - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 04:16:00 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- Liber S. Contest updates... KFC spake: >> Ummm... anyone can answer this, I don't mind: What are "smart quotes"? >> and if I don't know what it is do I need to bother with it? >> >> > > It's quotes that 'know' whether they are on the left or >right side of quoted text (and they may do other things as well >for all I know). Which means you have to have two separate codes >for them... neither of which match the standard 'quote' character. >They also make it annoying to have imbedded quotes and other things >I like to do. In short, they are a bad, bad idea. Yick. :( - -Perry, KFC Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 04:17:51 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Liber S. Contest updates... >>>If all you kind folks can manage to send me stuff that I don't have to >>>spend great gory gobs of time fixing, I will be a much happier Djinn >>>Princess. And the next time you see me, I won't hit you with a rolled >>>up newspaper. >> >>Ah! No! > >Fear the newspaper of nitpicking. > >Or maybe I'll just arrange a nice demonic deal with Bun-bun. I don't want to know, I don't want to know... - -Perry. Kyriotate of Flowers serving Creation and sometimes Tanniael, Archangel of Tea Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1079 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.