From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jan 7 13:23:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA17671 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:23:07 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id MAA26853 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:43:27 -0600 Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:43:27 -0600 Message-Id: <199901071843.MAA26853@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1084 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, January 7 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1084 In this digest: IN> about product quality Re: IN> Hebrew word IN> "Quantum" nitpick IN> In Nomine Black Ops? (was Humanity) Re: IN> New Member Re: Who's Who in the Symphony (was Re: IN> Gabriel's servants) Re: IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- Discord and Rites Re: IN> Destiny\Fate of Angels\Demons Re: IN> Gabriel's servants Re: IN> "Quantum" nitpick Re: IN> Discord and Rites IN> ADMIN: DEAD THREAD (Re: David vs Martin - the End (we hope!)) Re: IN> about product quality IN> New Testament Canon Dating Re: IN> David vs Martin - the End (we hope!) Re: IN> Discord and Rites Re: IN> Gabriel's servants warning slight Final trumpet spoiler. IN> Loki IN> Liber Servitorum submissions IN> Liber Servitorum Proposal comments (bounced) Re: IN> Discord and Rites [none] Re: IN> Re: IN- Discord and Rites Re: IN> Humanity (was Gabriel's attunements or something) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 09:03:42 PST From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> about product quality "That's an almost virtual certainty -- the notion that the writers would pick the exact same set of Tethers you did is absurdly improbable." I wouldn't be so sure - I mean how may candidates for suitable sites are there - in any given city. Take Trade for example; there are only two sits that I can think of in London: Bank of England or the Royal Stock Exchange. How many Monuments to the Great Fire ware there? For that matter, how many Great Fires? "the Great Big Nasty Publisher Conspiracy Theory" Nah! You don't wanna believe conspiracy theories - they're all made up! Fnord! "Then you probably don't need to bother with any other future canon books, either, since they'll probably include things that contradict what you've done for your game." Right, thank you! I'll stick to what I need. OK, so you'd posted some stuff. But you didn't mention that in your post," I didn't think I needed to. "and I suspect few of us associated your question with the author of those London Tether posts. I certainly didn't." well, forgive my blatant sarcasm, they do have the same names! :-) Seriously, I don't expect you to read my posts, but I can't keep repeating myself just in case people didn't. they were on the list for everyone. "If you'd mentioned that, and asked, "Did any of the London Tethers I posted match those in the Tether book?"," Forgive me; I thought I had in one way or another. I thought that point was made in my initial question. "what does not including explicit, rigid rules for Force levels for high level NPCs have to do with being "broken"?" Nothing. I was making the connection because the thought occurred to me. I do feel that it is information that should be in the basic rulebook. Maybe next time around huh! "Fine. Then you'll pay $100 (or local equivalent) for a 500+ page tome you can barely tote around?" No, I'll pay the same price for the same sized book as before - only this time around the rules will have been more thoroughly checked! Hard work for sure, but that's a game designers job. Mine is to be an unforgiving SOB with 20£ less in his pocket! BTW the point was a general point about games - I mentioned no specific titles for obvious reasons. "Or will you complain that it doesn't include the King's hair colour? There's a level of detail that's essential, and one that's "frill"." If the King's Hair colour is relevant, yes! I maintain that information on creating NPC's IS relevant since they themselves are. And the inclusion of what has amounted to a paragraph of text is not quite 300 extra pages is it! "and that will be split into dozens of books." And that is a big part of the problem. Which is why I applaud SJG for doing the AAPG/IPG not individual choir or band books! "I think the IN rulebook wasn't as inclusive as it might have been" Then you and I don't actually disagree! :-) "but I don't think there's anything in there that I'd want to cut, either." Yep, I think we do! ~g~ Martin - whose email skills are in the dry cleaners… ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 12:22:40 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Hebrew word I asked my father, who replied with this -- a translation already mentioned, I think, but I'm not sure. Earl > There are 2 or 3 Hebrew words translated "abomination" in the > King James version. One is "to[evah" (where [ represents the > letter ayin, which has no equivalent in English). It is used of > things that are ritually unclean, but is also used in an ethical > sense. Cf. Deut. 14:3 and Isaiah 1:13. "Toevah" is a perfectly > good Hebrew word for "abomination." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:28:36 -0500 From: Stacy Stroud Subject: IN> "Quantum" nitpick In response to: >>And I think it is canon that once someone achieves a quantum jump in >>ability (celestial to Word-bound for sure, but probably Word-bound to >>Superior also), they don't lose those abilities even if they later >>weaken. Case in point, the "Old Guy" in Night Music, who's very weak >>these days, for a Word-bound. Ramesh wrote: >Nitpicking note: A quanta is the smallest possible unit, so a "quantum >jump" is the smallest possible jump that is possible. And I say: True. But *because* it's the smallest possible jump, it's also a jump to an entirely different level, suddenly, with no possibility of in-between levels or gradual progression from one to the other. I think that's where the common usage of "quantum jump/leap" comes from, though it is sometimes incorrectly used to mean "really big jump" as well. A better physics term, also occasionally used by Elizabeth et al. for the change from normal celestial to Superior, is "state change." I.E., it was *this*, with *these* properties, and now it's this other thing entirely, with different properties. Stacy Stroud sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:03:34 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> In Nomine Black Ops? (was Humanity) At 8:26 PM -0500 1/6/99, Perry Lloyd wrote: [...] >No, you've got something here. I was just looking through GURPS Black >Ops the other day, If you translated Black Ops into IN... First, you'd probably have to allow the 3 points of characteristic boost per realm, so you'd get that. And secondly... >Why isn't this kind of power available to humans in In Nomine? Because 5-Force humans aren't *that* buff. >Spiritual growth is *necessary* before physical development? In order >to have a Strength of 10, a five force human has, what: >Corp Forces 3 Str 10 Agl 2 >Ethe Forces 1 Int 2 Pre 2 >Cele Forces 1 Wil 2 Per 2 Now, let's go look at Black Ops characters. Ponder, ponder. Corp Forces 3 Str 10 Agl 5 Ethe Forces 3 Int 7 Pre 8 Cele Forces 3 Wil 7 Per 8 Moderately experienced. A *highly* experienced Black Operative would be... Corp Forces 5 Str 10 Agl 10 Ethe Forces 5 Int 10 Pre 10 Cele Forces 4 Wil 9 Per 10 If you introduce Black Ops, your celestials *should* be afraid. (If you're doing Black Ops, then yeah, I'd say that humans can, with dedication, work themselves up to the human maximums.) >?Of course, I grew up on GURPS -and- I >prefer playing humans to angels and demons, if it weren't for the fact >that they are hardly able to achieve the attributes which are claimed to >be in human range without sacrificing the two other realms. It's human range, but you have to be an exceptional human -- either by trading off in other realms, or by being scary. (You said it yourself -- a 100 point human is akin to a 6 Force human. Therefore, a 650 point human is going to be *how* many Forces? Not to mention the obscene number of skills.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:06:35 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> New Member At 5:41 PM -0800 1/6/99, Steel Angel wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> No -- they can only possess humans. Can't corrupt animals. (Animals only >> go to Heaven, after all -- or, possibly, get reincarnated and/or dissolved >> into the Symphony.) > > That works, although I'm sure it's -possible- to 'corrupt' an animal by >making it act outside its usual nature. Make a big, friendly German >Shepherd go around eating Girl Scouts, that sort of thing. But the German Shepherd doesn't have any "moral code" -- it has a pattern of behavior. You can re-train it, but you've no more corrupted it as an animal than if you trained it to eat Girl Scouts in a more mundane way. Jordi welcomes man-eating tigers as well as fluffy housecats like Tabby Big-eyes. (Did she ever get put up on the INC? Hm.) He likes pit bulls just fine. >> The latter. But the celestial's mind is AWOL in the Marches, as in >> a typical Song-of-Possession. The Shedite does not get the ability to >> tap the celestial's memories, nor will any of its actions have the least >> chance of causing the owner of the possessed vessel any dissonance. > > No, but you could sure as hell destroy a reputation Oh, yes, well! Who said anything else? You just can't make an angel Fall. >Also, you can apparently use -some- of their attunements Yes. But if you don't know they have it, you have to try and hope. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:08:29 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Who's Who in the Symphony (was Re: IN> Gabriel's servants) At 10:20 PM -0400 1/6/99, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: >IMHO, I think that would logically mean that >Celestials do not cause disturbance in the Celestial movement of the >Symphony; they belong there, after all. Bingo. (You can hear Songs, I think -- but they're not disturbances, they're a moment where one instrument rises above the rest.) Angels make no disturbance arriving in Heaven. Demons make no disturbance arriving in Hell. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:13:41 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- Discord and Rites At 1:50 AM -0500 1/7/99, Perry Lloyd wrote: [...] >Point, I had forgotten the fact that failing a dissonance roll (as a >demon) (or an Outcast Malakite) >generates discord. However, I was wondering how Discord (not >Dissonance) could disable one's Resonance. Of course, if you're gaining >Dissonance every half and hour, you're pretty much screwed anyway. >Every hour and a half, another level of Discord. :) Whee-hee. My >players know all about that, don't you? heh heh... Heh heh heh. You know, I might be inclined to invent the Discord: "Resonance Jamming." Where every -1 was a penalty to resonance use. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:20:11 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Destiny\Fate of Angels\Demons At 3:19 PM +0000 1/7/99, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >Perry Lloyd wrote on 07 January 1999 01:22 > >Plus Angels and Demons have Fate and Destiny (right?) which >>implies that they ARE part of the symphony. > >On a side note if the attunements from Yves & Kronos (I assume Kronos is >the same) give information barring Celestial intervention, That's the future-forcasting abilities. I think only Yves has that, and it's his Mercurians and Cherubim. Kronos may have it for Djinn. I'm not looking at my book this instant. >surely it is >impossible (except possibly by Yves & Kronos) to detect the Destiny or Fate >of a Celestial because when they do anything they have intervened in their >own life causing Celestial intervention (I'm not saying angels and Demons >don't have Destinies/Fate just it's impossible to detect). Angels have destinies -- usually whether they have the potential to become Wordbound or a Superior. Angels have fates -- to Fall (or, for Malakim, probably go Outcast and insane). Demons have destinies -- to redeem. Demons have fates -- to become Wordbound or a Prince or simply toil along doing their jobs. You simply can't tell if they'll make it! (Though I'd let a Mercurian of Destiny predict rough outlines, without giving any hints as to whether the results are in celestial society or not.) It's even harder to predict with celestials, since they *do* tend to muck with each other a lot, but what the Mercurians of Destiny sense is the general track you're taking. If they then try to meddle -- or anyone else does, based on what the Intercessionist found out -- then things can change. >Also I have got the impression from a number of books that it is possible >to change someone's destiny/Fate through Celestial intervention, is that >right? No. You can guide them towards one or the other, but you can't *CHANGE* what their destiny/fate *is*. If their fate is to kick dogs, and you teach them to love dogs, then they won't reach their fate (you hope), but that's still their fate. If you go further, and get them killing people (which may or may not be possible, depending on what concepts you subscribe to), then you'll have to get them kicking dogs first. Now, the problem comes if you have someone whose fate is to kick dogs and instead you force them to become a drug addict and prostitute. If they haven't kicked any dogs, then no matter how bad their death... It wasn't fate. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:11:58 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Gabriel's servants At 8:05 PM -0800 1/6/99, B.H. wrote: >Walter Milliken wrote: >> >> Well, canon is supposed to be decidedly ambiguous on the "God=big >> ethereal" question. Among other things, this implies that ethereals >> should probably have the equivalent of Superiors. > >I personally hope not. I like the universe ordered as it is. But >that's just me. ^_^ Should have, or should have had. Uriel did rather muck around with the most powerful of his time. >> And I think it is canon that once someone achieves a quantum jump in >> ability (celestial to Word-bound for sure, but probably Word-bound to >> Superior also), they don't lose those abilities even if they later >> weaken. You'd have to do a *lot* of damage to someone to strip them of their abilities. (It possibly *could* be done, but would require a lot of work, and I'm currently inclined to be fuzzy here.) >> Certainly no ethereal ever approached the power of the major Superiors. >> But I think some of them are probably a match for the more minor ones. > >What do you call a 'minor' Superior? The ones in the main book are major Superiors. The ones in the Cycle books -- Zadkiel, Khalid, etc., are minor Superiors, and generally are somewhat less powerful than the majors, as Superiors reckon such things. >> Should have been.... Or he may have slipped through under the Superior >> loophole -- Superiors aren't bound by those limits, necessarily. > >That would tend to support your argument... Unless Ethereals play by >vastly different rules.... ^_^ The fewer rules, the better... KINS, INING are my mantras. (Keep In Nomine Simple; In Nomine Is Not GURPS.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:40:06 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> "Quantum" nitpick At 12:28 PM -0500 1/7/99, Stacy Stroud wrote: [...] >A better physics term, also occasionally used by Elizabeth et al. for the >change from normal celestial to Superior, is "state change." I.E., it was >*this*, with *these* properties, and now it's this other thing entirely, >with different properties. What Stacy said! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:35:38 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Discord and Rites At 11:24 AM -0500 1/7/99, dahak wrote: >------------------------------ > >Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 16:08:46 +0000 >From: Kevin Walsh >On Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 06:49:59PM -0500, dahak wrote: >>>Maybe I'm being dim but I thought you only suffered dissonance once >>>for each time you broke your dissonance conditions so If I disobey orders >>>and become a renegade that's one note of discord in either case >>>[possibly 2 if I was ordered not do go renegade as well as failing to >>>carry out my current orders.] >>>plus one for being a servant of the game helping a renegade i.e. me. >> >3 notes of dissonance is unpleasant, to say the least. > >>>Bad news admittedly but making them unplayable [the fact that the >>>superior wants you stapled to a wall somewhere is what makes them >>>unplayable. Compared with avoiding your ex comrades in the game or >>>Laurence's Malakim death squads a little more dissonance isn't going >>>to hurt much. > >>And how are you going to fight them? The way Asmodeus would set it up IMC >>is to send personal messages telling them to report back for duty >>within the hour every hour, which if disobeyed will inflict dissonance. >>Very shortly the Renegade will be a puddle of Discord, permanently unable >>to use its resonance. (Remember the secondary effects of gaining >>dissonance?) >So In your campaign if in his instructions to his minions. >Asmodeous tells them to do something three times they >take three notes of dissonance if they disobey him? "Servitor: report to Hades by noon." 12:00:01. "Servitor: report to Hades by 12:30." 12:30:01 "Servitor: report to the nearest Game-Tether by 1pm." 1:00:01 Repeat until Asmodeus gets bored. Remember that Djinn are... patient. >Not to mention the fact that its direct orders, >IE in person rather than through messages I count Celestial Tongues as "in person" enough for orders. It's a direct "from me to you" metaphysical communication. If that won't satisfy you, then use Correspondence and Ethereal Tongues. (I think it's Correspondence, in the Songbook -- the one that lets you affect far-away things.) Asm: "Servitor, report to Hades by noon." Ren: "No! I won't! I won't!" Asm: "And don't talk back to me." Ren: "*&^%&(^ you!" Ren: . o O (Ow.) 11:59:59 Asm: "Two seconds to go, Servitor." 12:00:01 Ren: . o O (Ow.) >and the essence cost involved in using Cel Tongues >on the player multiple times. 1 point of Essence per point of dissonance? Cheap at the price! Just flog it out of some humans or have your corrupt cops lean on some Shal-Mari sites for protection Essence. >>You can be made a Renegade for just about anything.[...] > >Asmodeus still needs a reason to get rid of you. If you're *his*, he needs the reason, "I think you're acting like a traitor or an incompetant, and being incompetant in the Game is treasonous to Hell. Now, let's make an Example." >>>Most of the above notes can be got rid of by either following your orders >>>again >>>if your that way inclined and if not well that's the cost for getting >>>from under the thumb of one of the universes top three or four micro >>>managers. > >>No, it makes them unplayable. The Heart is the focus point of a >>Celestial's connection to a Word, and if it's cracked, the connection is >>gone. > >So how can they use word based attunements? An Attunement is something that changes the very being of the person who gets it. It's like a tattoo. You can't remove it without flaying away the skin it's on. In this model, dissonance conditions are something imposed from pseudo- outside. There is a way to sever oneself from them: breaking the Heart, which is at once part of you and separate from you. >>>PS on rites as far as I could find there are mentions of not being able >>>to use them but renegades who can't can become angels who can. > >>I believe it's for instant redemption cases, rather than renegades on the >>run for X years who see the light. Anyway, Demon Princes have the option >>of letting Renegades use their Rites, but if they're used, the DP finds >>out where the Renegade is, so most Renegades aren't going to use that >>option. > >That is a better option but only at best deutrocanonical. I'll work on this. Though it's heavily implied on p. 94 of the IPG, top of the second column. >>>Nothing about what happens to fully fledged angels with demonic rites. >> >>If demonic rites are dissonant, demonic rites are dissonant. The normal >>dissonance rules apply. > >All dissonance conditions are situational. But if you get dissonance, you get dissonance, and it follows the normal rules. >The problem comes with characters like Damion in Maya's Fiat Justinia >who have both Andre's 30 minute sex rite and Eli's one hour making love >rite. The first triggers most times when you do the second. You can choose whether or not to use a Rite. Presumably, he didn't feel like using a mucky Lust Rite when he was being sharing with Kanah. Or else he was *making love*, not having sex. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:38:02 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> ADMIN: DEAD THREAD (Re: David vs Martin - the End (we hope!)) Due to complaints received from others, I hereby declare an *END* to this off-topic discussion. Now, I don't care who started it, but I don't want to see any more of it. - --Beth, Djinn Princess of List Admin, who holds the keys to subscriptions ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 17:59:22 +0000 From: Sam Kington Subject: Re: IN> about product quality Quotes are David Edelstein, I believe (Martin, could you *please* preserve attributions when quoting?) Martin Arnold wrote: > > "That's an almost virtual certainty -- the notion that the writers would > pick the exact same set of Tethers you did is absurdly improbable." > > I wouldn't be so sure - I mean how may candidates for suitable sites are > there - in any given city. Take Trade for example; there are only two > sits that I can think of in London: Bank of England or the Royal Stock > Exchange. How many Monuments to the Great Fire ware there? For that > matter, how many Great Fires? You already mentioned two possibilities for Trade; I wouldn't give them more than one in a City, so I have uncertainty already. The Great Fire might not have created a Tether; and if it did, the Tether could be the Monument or one of the numerous buildings constructed as a result, and could be either to Gabriel or Belial. For that matter, the Trade Tethers could equally be tethers to Mammon. And that's just the comparatively obvious sites. For a place like London, a capital city of a once world power, there are going to be *lots* of Tethers, and people will disagree even more about where they should be. (Not to mention that your campaign may demand a Tether in an unusual place if it helps the plot.) Every time people have discussed where Tethers would go in a particular city on this list, they have disagreed or come up with different ideas (Edinburgh was the latest example of this, but there have been others). > "OK, so you'd posted some stuff. But you didn't mention that in your > post," > > I didn't think I needed to. Never make assumptions. > "and I suspect few of us associated your question with the author of > those London Tether posts. I certainly didn't." > > well, forgive my blatant sarcasm, they do have the same names! :-) Look, I visited the London Tether site a while ago, and I didn't notice your name - or if I did, I didn't remember it. There are a few people on this mailing list that most regulars will know, just because they post often and/or significantly. Most people on this list, I have little idea of who they are or what they've done. You're not one of the major figures on this list (apart from gaining notoriety through these flames), so you shouldn't expect people to know you, or know what you've done. > Seriously, I don't expect you to read my posts, but I can't keep > repeating myself just in case people didn't. In which case, expect them to misunderstand you. > If the King's Hair colour is relevant, yes! I maintain that information > on creating NPC's IS relevant since they themselves are. And the > inclusion of what has amounted to a paragraph of text is not quite 300 > extra pages is it! Just one paragraph, no. One extra paragraph for every NPC in the book, that adds up to a fair few pages. Add that sort of level of detail everywhere, and it mounts up. Sam - -- INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/inwo/ More of my stuff: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ Not my employer's opinion, no snappy quote ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:34:03 -0500 From: Stacy Stroud Subject: IN> New Testament Canon Dating MarkDEddy wrote: >The confusion may be due to the date of the establishment of the Canon of >Scripture, which was 320AD (or was it 340AD?) at either the First or Second >Council of Nicaea, a much later date than the dates of composition of the >Gospels. And I say: I don't think it was either of the Nicaeas. "Carthage" comes to mind, though I think the NT canon was actually ratified at two different councils. First Nicaea is the best-known early council, and the one usually given credit for the codification of Christian doctrine, but in fact the one big controversy there was the nature of the relationship between the Son and the Father. That doesn't even get you all three persons of the Trinity, nor the Incarnation. (The latter was Chalcedon; I don't recall when the Holy Spirit's divine status was confirmed.) Stacy Stroud sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 17:49:27 +0000 From: Sam Kington Subject: Re: IN> David vs Martin - the End (we hope!) I've snipped a lot of this because it's boring. However: Martin Arnold wrote: > I didn't say you > harassed me - don't infer something that I CLEARLY never said because > what you've come up with is pretty insulting! I DON'T harass people! I > am NOT sleazy and this is some thing I cant and won't ignore! You are > really pushing it if you think you are justified in making these sorts > of malicious claims! Seven lines, four sentences all ending in exclamation marks, three words in all caps. Then: > Whining, screaming, moaning; these are all adjectives YOU have used. > FYI: I haven't done any of that and I'm not doing it now That looks like whining, screaming and moaning to me. Sam - -- INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/inwo/ More of my stuff: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ Not my employer's opinion, no snappy quote ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jan 99 13:05 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Discord and Rites >>So In your campaign if in his instructions to his minions. >>Asmodeous tells them to do something three times they >>take three notes of dissonance if they disobey him? > >"Servitor: report to Hades by noon." >12:00:01. >"Servitor: report to Hades by 12:30." >12:30:01 >"Servitor: report to the nearest Game-Tether by 1pm." >1:00:01 > >Repeat until Asmodeus gets bored. > >Remember that Djinn are... patient. I don't think it even takes Asmodeus -- just the Renegade's immediate boss. Which is a lot better use of Asmodeus' time.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:17:21 -0500 From: dahak Subject: Re: IN> Gabriel's servants warning slight Final trumpet spoiler. Jormungandr [The Midguard serpent] is described as being of equivalent power to a superior in Final Trumpet. Uriel in person failed to kill it. Admittedly due to stupidity rather than lack of combat power. Thor killed it. Some PC party's can match Thor's damage output according to his stats. Universe Violation at level 1. Please reboot megaverse 2000 and try again. If continued failures occur please contact skuld.goddess.support@yggsradil.gov.as Adam "The Church is close but the road is icy; the tavern is far but I'll be careful." Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 18:10 EST From: Walter Milliken Certainly no ethereal ever approached the power of the major Superiors. But I think some of them are probably a match for the more minor ones. >Hmm. Need to check the errata about that... but doesn't Thor have >some mega-high Strength? Or was that errata'ed too? Should have been.... Or he may have slipped through under the Superior loophole -- Superiors aren't bound by those limits, necessarily. - - ---Walter - ------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:17:23 -0500 From: dahak Subject: IN> Loki You know of course that makes Loki the son of a giant. [not unreasonable from the stories about him and some of his preferences in sexual partners.] You all remember that the Gregori are giants. Which means of course that: Loki is one of the children of the Gregori. Adam Metanoia: That state beyond paranoia, where you are right. Every one is plotting against you. - -----Original Message----- - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 20:09:02 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" >One way Loki might be alien enough is that he does NOT originate >in *human* minds. It's canon that the Marches are older than >humanity, at least as old as anything that dreams. Perhaps Loki >has been recently *shaped* by humanity's imaginations, but he might >*originate* far, far further back than that, in some amalgam of >animal dreams of ambush, aggression, and deceit. > >That even fits with his myth, kinda. He's not an Aes by birth, >but instead he just shows up and becomes Odin's blood brother. >I believe he's vaguely said to be of Jotun stock, but no specific >parents were given that I recall, and the Jotuns are, themselves, >something in the way of personifications of unhuman nature. > >Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:19:04 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Liber Servitorum submissions These are the breakdowns of what I have, and what I don't have. (In Service To will be counted twice -- once under Superior, and once under Superior In Service To.) Angels first, then demons. Superiors - --------- Blandine Kyriotate Friend of Dreams Cherub Servitor of Creation in service to Blandine * David Ofanite Servitor of Stone Dominic Kyriotate Vassal of Judgment Eli Seraph of Creation in service to Jordi Mercurian Of Creation Cherub Servitor of Creation in service to Blandine Gabriel Angel of Punishment, Seraph Master of Fire Seraph of Fire Janus Bright Lilim of the Wind Elohite Servitor of the Wind in service to Yves. Seraph Vassal of the Wind Seraph Servitor of Animals in Service to Janus * Malakite of the Wind Jean Jordi Angel of Birds, Ofanite Master of Animals Seraph of Creation in service to Jordi * Elohite Of Animals Seraph Servitor of Animals in Service to Janus Laurence Mercurian of the Sword Outcast Cherub of the Sword Ofanite Vassal of the Sword Marc Seraph Friend Of Trade Michael Elohite Servitor of War Seraph Servitor of War Novalis Yves Angel of Mysteries, Ofanite Master of Destiny Mercurian Servitor of Destiny Elohite Servitor of Destiny Elohite Servitor of the Wind in service to Yves * Seraph Master of Destiny, the Recording Angel By Choir - -------- Seraphim Seraph of Creation in service to Jordi Angel of Punishment, Seraph Master of Fire Seraph of Fire Seraph Friend Of Trade Seraph Master of Destiny, the Recording Angel Seraph Vassal of the Wind Seraph Servitor of Animals in Service to Janus Seraph Servitor of War Cherubim Cherub of the Sword Cherub Servitor of Creation in service to Blandine Ofanim Ofanite Servitor of Stone Angel of Birds, Ofanite Master of Animals Angel of Mysteries, Ofanite Master of Destiny Ofanite Vassal of the Sword Elohim Elohite Servitor of the Wind in service to Yves. Elohite Of Animals Elohite Servitor of War Elohite Servitor of Destiny Malakim Malakite of the Wind Kyriotates Kyriotate Friend of Dreams Kyriotate Vassal of Judgment Mercurians Mercurian Of Creation Mercurian Servitor of Destiny Mercurian of the Sword Bright Lilim Bright Lilim of the Wind DEMONS Superior - -------- Andrealphus Impudite Captain of Lust Impudite Servitor of Lust Habbalite Captain of Lust Balseraph Of Lust Shedite Servitor of Lust Asmodeus Impudite Servitor of the Game Demon of the Prosecution, Balseraph Baron of the Game Djinn of the Game Djinn Servitor of The Game Baal Impudite Knight of the War Lilim of the War Djinn General, Duke of the War Beleth Shedite of Nightmares Belial Free Lilim in Service to Fire * Haagenti Shedite Servitor of Gluttony Kobal Kronos Impudite of Fate Calabite Knight of Fate. Balseraph Servitor of Fate Balseraph Servitor of Fate Lilith Free Lilim in Service to Fire Balseraph in Service to Freedom Malphas Habbalite of Factions Habbalite Knight Of Factions Habbalite Servitor of Factions Demon of Atheism, Balseraph Knight of Factions Calabite of Malphas Impudite Servitor of Factions Nybbas Balseraph of the Media Saminga Valefor Habbalite of Theft Vapula Impudite Servitor of Technology Shedite Of Technology Mammon Molly, a.k.a. "I'm Going to Hell", Demon of Gambling Debts, Lilim Captain of Greed Lucifer Azazel, Djinn of Lucifer - ---------- Balseraphs Balseraph of the Media Balseraph in Service to Freedom Balseraph Of Lust Balseraph Servitor of Fate Demon of Atheism, Balseraph Knight of Factions Demon of the Prosecution, Balseraph Baron of the Game Balseraph Servitor of Fate Djinn Azazel, Djinn of Lucifer Djinn of the Game Djinn General, Duke of the War Djinn Servitor of The Game Calabim Calabite Knight of Fate. Calabite of Malphas Habbalah Habbalite of Theft Habbalite Captain of Lust Habbalite of Factions Habbalite Knight Of Factions Habbalite Servitor of Factions Lilim Free Lilim in Service to Fire Lilim of the War Molly, a.k.a. "I'm Going to Hell", Demon of Gambling Debts, Lilim Captain of Greed Shedim Shedite Of Technology Shedite of Nightmares Shedite Servitor of Gluttony Impudites Impudite Knight of the War Impudite Servitor of Technology Impudite Captain of Lust Impudite Servitor of Lust Impudite of Fate Impudite Servitor of the Game Impudite Servitor of Factions - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:22:11 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Liber Servitorum Proposal comments (bounced) Ben4631926@aol.com, I had some comments on your submissions, but AOL isn't accepting email for your address. Send me email from a working address ASAP, or I can't accept your submissions for consideration. - ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to air-yc04.mail.aol.com.: >>> RCPT To: <<< 550 Ben4631926 IS NOT ACCEPTING MAIL FROM THIS SENDER 550 ... User unknown - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:26:25 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Discord and Rites At 1:05 PM -0500 1/7/99, Walter Milliken wrote: >>>So In your campaign if in his instructions to his minions. >>>Asmodeous tells them to do something three times they >>>take three notes of dissonance if they disobey him? >> >>"Servitor: report to Hades by noon." >>12:00:01. >>"Servitor: report to Hades by 12:30." >>12:30:01 >>"Servitor: report to the nearest Game-Tether by 1pm." >>1:00:01 >> >>Repeat until Asmodeus gets bored. >> >>Remember that Djinn are... patient. > >I don't think it even takes Asmodeus -- just the Renegade's immediate >boss. Which is a lot better use of Asmodeus' time.... No, it takes Asmodeus -- "by disobeying any of his direct orders." Of course, it only takes a brief thought every half-hour or hour or so. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:37:58 -0000 From: R0198TLW@solent.ac.uk Subject: [none] Join ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 18:32:24 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Discord and Rites On Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 08:06:52PM -0500, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Demons get Discord from failing dissonance rolls, but IIRC, the dissonance > *doesn't vanish* unless the demon deliberately converts it -- into more > Discord. And every note of dissonance is a -1 penalty to your resonance > roll. > I'm fairly certain that, in addition, gaining dissonance blinds one's resonance for several hours, probably equal to the highest number on the dissonance roll. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In our revolutionary court we are guided not by articles of the law and not by the degree of extenuating circumstances; in the tribunal we must proceed on the basis of considerations of expediency." the Gulag Archipelago, by Alexander Solzhenitsyn. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jan 99 13:25 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Humanity (was Gabriel's attunements or something) >No, you've got something here. I was just looking through GURPS Black >Ops the other day, in which you play a character with a point total of >650pts plus. Normals GURPS hero material is 100pts, that's like a six >force human, I'd say, in In Nomine. The problem with this is that GURPS tries to be "realistic", while In Nomine's game mechanics weren't designed with that intent at all. Also, as a long-time GURPS player and playtester, I would claim that any claim to mathematical sensibility in GURPS point costs has broken down well before 650 points. In fact, Black Ops attempts to produce cinematic characters in a realistic system, so any mathematical extrapolations from it are decidedly suspect. >Why isn't this kind of power available to humans in In Nomine? Because it wasn't designed that way. Also, I'd place typical In Nomine celestials at about the 400-500 point level in GURPS, so your 650pt Black Ops character is well *beyond* what a typical 9-Force character can do (other than straight supernatural abilities). Remember that the *typical* human in GURPS is 25 points, and 100-point characters are supposed to be definite hero material, with really powerful, experienced characters normally about 200 points. Those would probably be a better comparison point. However, I'll agree that the typical 100-point GURPS PC is probably roughly equivalent to a typical Soldier in IN. >??? That's not right to me. Of course, I grew up on GURPS -and- I >prefer playing humans to angels and demons, if it weren't for the fact >that they are hardly able to achieve the attributes which are claimed to >be in human range without sacrificing the two other realms. And you're running into a common problem with game systems -- representing two or more radically-different power levels, in a way that's playable and reasonable is a *very* hard problem. The "center-point" of the GURPS system is aimed at above-average humans, while the center-point of the IN design is typical celestials. Either system will strain a bit to try to represent the common case in the other. (Frankly, I think GURPS would do a better job of handling both than IN does.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1084 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.