From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Jan 8 07:18:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA01333 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:18:08 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id GAA31218 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 06:58:16 -0600 Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 06:58:16 -0600 Message-Id: <199901081258.GAA31218@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1086 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, January 8 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1086 In this digest: Re: IN> Gabriel's servants Re: IN> Power of Superiors (Re: Gabriel's servants) Re: IN> Gabriel's servants IN> Demon Princes and Words Re: IN> Gabriel's servants Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words Re: IN> Gabriel's servants Re: IN> Gabriel's servants Re: IN> Is the flavor text canon? IN> Slander Is Lilith cruel (was Re: IN> Is the flavor text canon?) Re: IN> Power of Superiors (Re: Gabriel's servants) Re: IN> Gabriel's servants Re: Is Lilith cruel (was Re: IN> Is the flavor text canon?) Re: IN> Power of Superiors (Re: Gabriel's servants) Re: IN> In Nomine Black Ops? (was Humanity) IN> Symphonic Language IN> ABC TV Re: IN> Symphonic Language IN> Some questions about 'The Game' Re: IN> Some questions about 'The Game' IN> Another rules question Re: Is Lilith cruel (was Re: IN> Is the flavor text canon?) Re: IN> Some questions about 'The Game' IN> Destiny\Fate of Angels\Demons IN> Yassa Massa Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words Re: IN> Some questions about 'The Game' Re: IN> Destiny\Fate of Angels\Demons Re: IN> Gabriel's servants warning slight Final trumpet spoiler IN> RE: in_nomine-digest V1 #1084 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:38:41 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Gabriel's servants B.H. worte on 07 January 1999 >Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >> >> >What do you call a 'minor' Superior? I don't think any true Superior >> >can be called 'minor'- unless you mean a powerful Word-bound with a >> >hierarchy under it.... But again, that's IMHO. >> >> I thought most of the extra Superiors in the supplements were "minor" >> Superiors, - which I think means that their Word doesn't have such a >> presence in the Symphony when compared to the BIG 26 (27?). >> >> Ramesh >... I'm sorry, but I doubt any Ethereal God was ever as powerful as >Zadkiel. For that matter, Fleurity has to be at /least/ as powerful >as Nybbas... Considering how much he's done to both corrupt and >spread his Word... and how prevalent it is in 'reality'... 1 *I* wasn't saying any Ethereal God was as powerful as Zadkiel (although I'm not saying they aren't) I was just stating what *I* thought a minor Superior was. 2 Fleurity IMO has a Word which plays an important role in the Symphony, but he isn't *that* powerful because he doesn't have a massive control of the Word. Remember Nybbas got Lucifer's personal attention and became a DP straight after he invented the TV, Fleurity had to work his way up from being a Word bound. Also in may be prevelent in reality, but Fleurity is a Habbalite not an impudite so he uses his Word more as a punishment rather than the way Andrealphus uses his Word, so a lot of real life drugs stuff may be more associated with Eli or others. And maybe Eli may fight Nybbas, but although you do get a lot of cool (probably creation) stuff in the media, Nybbas is the master of PR which is what the Media is about (IMO) (You know what they say about the cool stuff not [generally] being in the mainsteam). Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:03:43 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Power of Superiors (Re: Gabriel's servants) Elizabeth McCoy worte on 07 January 1999 >> For that matter, Fleurity has to be at /least/ as powerful >>as Nybbas... Considering how much he's done to both corrupt and >>spread his Word... and how prevalent it is in 'reality'... > >He's young. He may get to the big-leagues eventually, but for >the now, he's younger than Nybbas (IIRC), and Nybbas' Word isn't >often-illegal! > With respect to whose older. (NM) "He (Fleurity) obtained his Word while working with the British in China the latter 1800s, but promoting crack cocaine was what marked him as a Prince to reckon with." (IN) "In 1884, with several human allies, he (Nybbas) invented the television. His immediate crowning by Lucifer was unexpected ..." (Doesn't entirely clear up the issue) Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:16:05 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Gabriel's servants Brian A. Rogers wrote on 07 January 1999 >Beg to differ. I grant you that Fleurty is very powerful. But let's face it. >Nybbas is a major factor in almost everybody's life. I don't abuse drugs. Most >of my friends don't abuse drugs. But everyone I know is exposed to the media >and influenced by it to some degree. I'm not say Fleurity is more powerful than Nybbas. But I would just like to say that the amount of and kind of people who do do drugs would suprise many (If it wasn't because I was so young I might be suprised at times). Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 17:21:11 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: IN> Demon Princes and Words On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Leath Sheales wrote: > Ever taken Aspirin? That's a drug. Cough medicine? Another drug. > The chemicals that we think of as 'good' are often still drugs. > Sure, they're not immediately evil, but neither is all of television, > movies, newspapers, magazines, and they all come under "Media" and > increase Nybbas' power. I don't think that all drugs increase Fleurity's power; I think abuse of drugs increases Fleurity's power. That's certainly what he promotes. Except for Lilith, the Demon Princes promote, and appear to be powered by, solely the darker side of their Words. For example, Andrealphus is specifically described as the Demon Prince of *sex without affection*, not the Demon Prince of all forms of carnal pleasure and desire. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 99 15:21:23 PST From: nick jost Subject: Re: IN> Gabriel's servants > Brian wrote: > > Beg to differ. I grant you that Fleurty is very powerful. But let's face it. > > Nybbas is a major factor in almost everybody's life. I don't abuse drugs. Most > > of my friends don't abuse drugs. But everyone I know is exposed to the media > > and influenced by it to some degree. > > Ever taken Aspirin? That's a drug. Cough medicine? Another drug. > The chemicals that we think of as 'good' are often still drugs. > Sure, they're not immediately evil, but neither is all of television, > movies, newspapers, magazines, and they all come under "Media" and > increase Nybbas' power. > > Leath. It is implied that a word as expressed in English is not what it means in angelic. A good example is lightening. A great example is war. Both sides use the word war. On Micheal's side this promotes a purifying conflict that has a resulotion. Baal's word promotes harmful conflict that is self fueling. I think that the 'drug' word works the same way. That is the infernal word of 'drug' denotes substances that are abused in such a way that they cause harm. Particularly addictive substances. - -- Kakkita Nikku ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jan 99 18:36 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words >Except for Lilith, the Demon Princes promote, and appear to be powered by, >solely the darker side of their Words. I'm not sure this is *entirely* true of Nybbas, though it's certainly easier to promote mindless drivel than uplifting and informative content.... I suspect he'll take whatever he can get, especially since Eli ought to be his major opponent, and he's on that extended vacation. It's just that what Nybbas mostly gets, most easily, is the worse side of mass communications. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:37:51 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Gabriel's servants Leath Sheales wrote on 07 January 1999 >Brian wrote: > >> Beg to differ. I grant you that Fleurty is very powerful. But let's face it. >> Nybbas is a major factor in almost everybody's life. I don't abuse drugs. Most >> of my friends don't abuse drugs. But everyone I know is exposed to the media >> and influenced by it to some degree. > >Ever taken Aspirin? That's a drug. Cough medicine? Another drug. >The chemicals that we think of as 'good' are often still drugs. >Sure, they're not immediately evil, but neither is all of television, >movies, newspapers, magazines, and they all come under "Media" and >increase Nybbas' power. > >Leath. I don't really think Fleurity concentrates on Pharaceuticals except as narcotics, it is under his domain but not in the same way that the Spice Girls or TV anchors (is it spelt that way?) are under Nybbas's control. Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 17:46:01 -0600 From: Don Durham Subject: Re: IN> Gabriel's servants At 11:16 PM 1/7/99 -0000, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >Brian A. Rogers wrote on 07 January 1999 > >>Beg to differ. I grant you that Fleurty is very powerful. But let's face >>it. Nybbas is a major factor in almost everybody's life. I don't abuse drugs. >>Most of my friends don't abuse drugs. But everyone I know is exposed to the >>media and influenced by it to some degree. > > >I'm not say Fleurity is more powerful than Nybbas. But I would just like >to say that the amount of and kind of people who do do drugs would suprise >many (If it wasn't because I was so young I might be suprised at times). > >Ramesh > > Hmmm, do beneficial chemicals come under Nybbas' domain? I'm pretty convinced that his word is only strengthened by our pill-dependent generation even if the pill in question in penicillin. Don Durham arthurd@io.com Looking to buy/sell/trade a Gurps Book? Check out: http://www.io.com/~arthurd/gurps_files/oop ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:52:06 EST From: Samovar3@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Is the flavor text canon? Thanks for the answers. They cleared things up and set my mind in motion. In a message dated 99-01-07 15:25:46 EST, Brian wrote: << *blink blink* Say what? I thought the vignettes were descriptions of scenes that happened. Sure, what someone says in the description might not be absolute truth, but you're telling me the vignettes and/or stories are completely false? >> Oops. This is probably my fault for glossing over it quickly. When I said "non-canon" what I meant was 1) explanations given may not necessarily be the truth and 2) any scene doesn't necessarily translate into mechanics. I was unaware that "non-canon" is sometimes meant to mean false. S. Flanigan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:00:28 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Slander This will be short. I saw the ADMIN post, and I know everyone is sick to death of the David & Martin show. And Elizabeth can take whatever actions she feels necessary for my posting one more addition, but I simply _cannot_ ignore slander. I apologize for this, but it HAS to be said: All of Mr. Arnold's claims that *I* started the private exchange with him, that I e-mailed him first, are lies. His statement that I am "blatantly lying" by claiming he sent me unsolicited e-mail first is in fact a blatant lie. That's all. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 19:38:28 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Is Lilith cruel (was Re: IN> Is the flavor text canon?) On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >According to Gabriel, Lilith is not cruel which could shake the > >faith of an angelic Fire servitor which finds a Demon Princess > >who is not cruel. > > Or it could just be Lilith shielding (to block Gabriel??), Gabriel > rambling around a concept that only she understands, or that Lilith > is simply, frighteningly, amoral in a way that Fire's burning cannot > touch. It would make a lot of sense, actually. She never *did* eat from that tree, after all... Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:00:04 -0500 (EST) From: Eslin Subject: Re: IN> Power of Superiors (Re: Gabriel's servants) On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > With respect to whose older. > > (NM) "He (Fleurity) obtained his Word while working with the British in > China the latter 1800s, but promoting crack cocaine was what marked him as > a Prince to reckon with." > > (IN) "In 1884, with several human allies, he (Nybbas) invented the > television. His immediate crowning by Lucifer was unexpected ..." > > (Doesn't entirely clear up the issue) Sure it does. Nybbas was both Worded and made a Prince in 1884. Fleurity was Worded in the late 19th century... but wasn't made a Prince till the last couple of decades. It doesn't tell us who's older on the absolute scale. But Nybbas is at the /least/ five times as old as Fleurity - as a Prince. :) -- eslin@buffnet.net // chephirah@fiat.justitia ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 01:31:41 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Gabriel's servants Kakkita Nikku 07 January 1999 >> Brian wrote: >> > Beg to differ. I grant you that Fleurty is very powerful. But let's face it. >> > Nybbas is a major factor in almost everybody's life. I don't abuse drugs. Most >> > of my friends don't abuse drugs. But everyone I know is exposed to the media >> > and influenced by it to some degree. >> >> Ever taken Aspirin? That's a drug. Cough medicine? Another drug. >> The chemicals that we think of as 'good' are often still drugs. >> Sure, they're not immediately evil, but neither is all of television, >> movies, newspapers, magazines, and they all come under "Media" and >> increase Nybbas' power. >> >> Leath. > >It is implied that a word as expressed in English is not what >it means in angelic. A good example is lightening. > >A great example is war. Both sides use the word war. On Micheal's >side this promotes a purifying conflict that has a resulotion. Baal's >word promotes harmful conflict that is self fueling. > >I think that the 'drug' word works the same way. That is the >infernal word of 'drug' denotes substances that are abused in such >a way that they cause harm. Particularly addictive substances. > In the write-up of Fleurity it states that ' "Drug" means more than heroin or cocaine - it also means Prozac and Valium'. I don't disagree that Fleurity probably concentrates on the Darker aspects of Drugs, I'm just saying that Pharmaceuticals are within his domain. Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 01:40:59 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: Is Lilith cruel (was Re: IN> Is the flavor text canon?) Richard Gant wrote on 08 January 1999 > >On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> >According to Gabriel, Lilith is not cruel which could shake the >> >faith of an angelic Fire servitor which finds a Demon Princess >> >who is not cruel. >> >> Or it could just be Lilith shielding (to block Gabriel??), Gabriel >> rambling around a concept that only she understands, or that Lilith >> is simply, frighteningly, amoral in a way that Fire's burning cannot >> touch. > >It would make a lot of sense, actually. She never *did* eat from that >tree, after all... > IIRC (& I can't check because I have lent out APG & IPG) in the history section of the APG (or possibly IPG) it suggests that humans were cruel before the Eden experiment, & it was the selfishness of humanity which suggested that they were not worthy of Gos'd special attention - or something like that. Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 01:51:21 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Power of Superiors (Re: Gabriel's servants) Eslin wrote on 08 January 1999 >On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >> With respect to whose older. >> >> (NM) "He (Fleurity) obtained his Word while working with the British in >> China the latter 1800s, but promoting crack cocaine was what marked him as >> a Prince to reckon with." >> >> (IN) "In 1884, with several human allies, he (Nybbas) invented the >> television. His immediate crowning by Lucifer was unexpected ..." >> >> (Doesn't entirely clear up the issue) > > Sure it does. Nybbas was both Worded and made a Prince in 1884. >Fleurity was Worded in the late 19th century... but wasn't made a Prince >till the last couple of decades. > > It doesn't tell us who's older on the absolute scale. But Nybbas >is at the /least/ five times as old as Fleurity - as a Prince. :) I see slightly more ambiguity in that statement since Fleurity could have been a Prince for ages but he only got really powerful in the last couple of decades, or it could mean what you said, or possibly some other things that I can't be bothered to think up. (I was implying the interpretation you took, but also saying that it isn't said explicitly) Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 21:34:04 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Black Ops? (was Humanity) >>No, you've got something here. I was just looking through GURPS Black >>Ops the other day, > >If you translated Black Ops into IN... First, you'd probably have >to allow the 3 points of characteristic boost per realm, so >you'd get that. And secondly... > >>Why isn't this kind of power available to humans in In Nomine? > >Because 5-Force humans aren't *that* buff. Ah. I was under the distinct impression that *humans* were limited to five forces, six for the "exceptional" ones. "Celestials and their Soldiers refer to the unenlightened mass of humanity - good, evil and confused -as "mundanes." A mundane is a human with 5 or fewer forces." (IN pg 32) Perhaps therefore the Black Ops *must* be enlightened? If they have more than five forces then therefore they MUST Soldiers, if there is nothing in between Soldier and Mundane. >>Spiritual growth is *necessary* before physical development? In order >>to have a Strength of 10, a five force human has, what: >>Corp Forces 3 Str 10 Agl 2 >>Ethe Forces 1 Int 2 Pre 2 >>Cele Forces 1 Wil 2 Per 2 > >Now, let's go look at Black Ops characters. Ponder, ponder. > >Corp Forces 3 Str 10 Agl 5 >Ethe Forces 3 Int 7 Pre 8 >Cele Forces 3 Wil 7 Per 8 > >Moderately experienced. A *highly* experienced Black Operative would >be... > >Corp Forces 5 Str 10 Agl 10 >Ethe Forces 5 Int 10 Pre 10 >Cele Forces 4 Wil 9 Per 10 > >If you introduce Black Ops, your celestials *should* be afraid. Cool. ;) i like it. But it can't work within In Nomine canon, can it? Then again, why should I worry about canon, anyway? But, within canon, wouldn't the Black Ops require spiritual growth, like Night Music pg 30, "The . . . (more common) way is for the mortal to acquire an extra force through rigorous training and spiritual growth." Hmmm... would the training within Black Ops be spiritual? Yeah, maybe... Like for the "Warrior"... >(If you're doing Black Ops, then yeah, I'd say that humans can, >with dedication, work themselves up to the human maximums.) > >>?Of course, I grew up on GURPS -and- I >>prefer playing humans to angels and demons, if it weren't for the fact >>that they are hardly able to achieve the attributes which are claimed to >>be in human range without sacrificing the two other realms. > >It's human range, but you have to be an exceptional human -- either >by trading off in other realms, or by being scary. And the Black Ops -are- scary. :) >(You said it yourself -- a 100 point human is akin to a 6 Force human. >Therefore, a 650 point human is going to be *how* many Forces? Not to >mention the obscene number of skills.) Cool. Maybe I *will* run In Nomine Black Ops. :) Dude.... Thanks, Beth!! I am *so* happy. - -Perry, KFC Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 18:36:36 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: IN> Symphonic Language I was again, thinking (horrible habit) and I wondered, from some of my reading, if the Symphony has a 'language'? The vignette about the Demon of Spam (IPG) got me thinking...'Spam' is spiced ham...and a term in - -English-. The -concept- of spam as computer 'fluff' exists elsewhere, but the word itself varies. Now, is the Demon of Spam merely the demon of English-speaking 'spam'? Or all spam? And if he is of -all- spam, HOW could he have gotten from 'spiced ham', to 'useless Email'? I always pictured Words as more like pure concepts, not 'slang terms'. Lust, Children, Judgement, War...these are concepts all humans have... Any ideas? - - Abracax, Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 22:02:06 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> ABC TV Wow... ABC just threw me for a loop. Turned on the boob-tube for a little of Nybbas's "programming", the devil's mind candy for the soul, anyway, and after "surfing" the various "channels", I settled on ABC, right? Next thing I know I see this, well, Lilim on TV. And I'm thinking, no way... this guy just said "I help you, for one million dollars." "You think I have that kind of money?" she replies. "There's a lay-away plan," he replies, "one days I ask you for a favor." And then, later on in the episode, he cashes in other favors to get what he needs to help other people. _Vengeance Unlimited_ I was very impressed. But that's not all, then, the very next show was called Cupid. Evidently its about Cupid, the Ethereal Deity, *in the body of a mortal living on earth* And what's he trying to do? Well, if he had the Word of Love, he sure looked like he was trying to further it. ;) Neat stuff. :) - -Perry, Kyriotate of Flowers serving Creation and sometimes Tanniael, Archangel of Tea Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 03:36:11 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Symphonic Language Steel Angel wrote on 08 January 1999 >I was again, thinking (horrible habit) and I wondered, from some of my >reading, if the Symphony has a 'language'? The vignette about the Demon >of Spam (IPG) got me thinking...'Spam' is spiced ham...and a term in >-English-. The -concept- of spam as computer 'fluff' exists elsewhere, >but the word itself varies. Now, is the Demon of Spam merely the demon >of English-speaking 'spam'? Or all spam? And if he is of -all- spam, HOW >could he have gotten from 'spiced ham', to 'useless Email'? I always >pictured Words as more like pure concepts, not 'slang terms'. Lust, >Children, Judgement, War...these are concepts all humans have... >Any ideas? > >- Abracax, Shedite of Riots right... IIRC it is sugested that the Demon of spam manipulated the meaning of the Word Spam so that it meant useless email (I have lent out my copy of the IPG so I can't check), therefore what is important is the different conotations of the Word in the universal conciousness. When people (okay when I) think of the Sword they think of Knights, when they of knights they think Honour legends of Adventurers and the like. Hardcore is probably a better example "Hardcore. That's a tiny Word. What could Lucifer be thinking? Hardcore. Wait, this word is *expandable*. Hardcore could be so much more than the music. Sure, When Rock and Roll gains the power to incite violence, that's Hardcore. But whenever ordinary Lust becomes abusive, that's Hardcore too. Whenever human beings take things to absurd lengths, whenever any average sin crosses the border into the trly Hellish, Furfur could be there." (NM, p 123-124) If that's right in a Celestial tongue (assuming my impression that the Celestial language uses words which fits their meaning is correct) the meaning of a Word may change throughout time as people associate different things with it (maybe the [angelic] Word Fire meant only the physical object a fire rather than the hods of meanings it has now). Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:51:11 +0000 From: "Leath Sheales" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: IN> Some questions about 'The Game' While thinking about the servants of the Game, I've come up with some questions. Any answers and opinions would be appreciated. 1) Asmodues servants can identify members of their Band and their dissonance. Is this part of Asmodeus' Band Attunement, or a special ability granted to his servants. eg. A Balseraph of the Game has the Balseraph, Djinn and Calabim attunements. Does this allow him to sense Balseraphs, Djinn and Calabim, or can he still only sense Basleraphs (members of his Band)? 2) Dissonance Binding: Allows the demon to restrict another celestial in their own dissonance. The victim's Agility is reduced by his dissonance + the binder's Celestial forces. Does this mean that the victim *must* have dissonance for this to work, or can it be used on non-dissonant celestials, who only have the captor's Celestial forces as the penalty? 3)Basic Rites: "At sunset, Asmodeus' minions regenerate 2 points of Essence, not just 1." Does this mean that Renegades of the Game *must* regenerate 2 Essence every day and allow Asmodeus to know where they are, or are they exempt from the "use a Rite, the boss knows where you are" rule? Or possibly, can they choose to only regenerate 1 Essence, therefore avoiding the Rite and Asmodeus' attention? 4) Do you think Dominic is annoyed by the fact that Asmodues' first distinction in "Knight of *Judgement*"? :) Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 04:42:59 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Some questions about 'The Game' Leath Sheales wrote on 08 January 1999 >3)Basic Rites: "At sunset, Asmodeus' minions regenerate 2 points of >Essence, not just 1." Does this mean that Renegades of the Game >*must* regenerate 2 Essence every day and allow Asmodeus to know >where they are, or are they exempt from the "use a Rite, the boss >knows where you are" rule? Or possibly, can they choose to only >regenerate 1 Essence, therefore avoiding the Rite and Asmodeus' >attention? On the same kind of line if using the Humanity attunement you can't regenerate Essence naturally and it costs 1 Essence to use for 24 hours. What exactly does "naturally" mean does it mean you can't use Rites or does it mean you don't regenerate Essence at Sunset? I thought you could keep the attunement up and net 1 Essence per day but after re-reading it I'm not sure. Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:53:52 +0000 From: "Leath Sheales" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: IN> Another rules question Another question that has often bugged me: Elohite of Lightning Attunement states: "The Elohim of Jean are the only angels with the calm precision to create microchips and circuit boards from thin air." Does this make the attunement Elohim only, or can any Choir of Jean still possess it, since it's not strictly Resonance-based??? Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 06:06:38 -0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: Is Lilith cruel (was Re: IN> Is the flavor text canon?) - -----Original Message----- From: gantr@NKU.EDU >On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> Or it could just be Lilith shielding (to block Gabriel??), Gabriel >> rambling around a concept that only she understands, or that Lilith >> is simply, frighteningly, amoral in a way that Fire's burning cannot >> touch. > >It would make a lot of sense, actually. She never *did* eat from that >tree, after all... > But amoral people can be cruel. In fact, if you are amoral then you probably don't know the difference between cruelty and kindness anyway, so what's to stop you? Or do you think Gabriel's angels only target peopel whjo are knowingly cruel? jo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 00:16:14 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Some questions about 'The Game' On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Leath Sheales wrote: > 4) Do you think Dominic is annoyed by the fact that Asmodues' first > distinction in "Knight of *Judgement*"? :) Yes. But I think he's got more substantial reasons to be annoyed by Asmodeus. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 01:33:22 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Destiny\Fate of Angels\Demons >>>Angels have destinies -- usually whether they have the potential to become Wordbound or a Superior. Angels have fates -- to Fall (or, for Malakim, probably go Outcast and insane). Demons have destinies -- to redeem. Demons have fates -- to become Wordbound or a Prince or simply toil along doing their jobs.<<< You know, as I think about it, it occurs to me that this is another way to differentiate between celestials and mortals and emphasize the uniqueness of the latter: Humans each have their own personal Destiny and Fate. Every single one of them. But celestials all have the SAME Destiny and Fate -- to become Word-bound and/or a Superior, and to Fall or Redeem. The implications are quite profound, if you think about it. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 02:17:47 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: IN> Yassa Massa Question: This'll probably be addressed in the Liber Servitorum, if it hasn't already been discussed on this very list. Servants have two basic stats, Level and Resource. The level part I understand. The resource bit I'm a little fuzzy on. I know the mechanics. The Resource level acts as a negative modifier on the servants Will when said servant is told to do something he'd rather not do. Simple. It shows the level of control over the servant. But what exactly does that mean? Where does this control originate from? A servant with a resource level of 6 probably has no Will left of his own (with regard to his master) and would slay members of his family if ordered. This implies that a Resource-6 servant is either a fanatic or is controlled in some other way. Money? Fear/intimidation? The promise of a Heavenly reward (or at least a condo in a nicer suburb of Hell)? Or is it a more direct control similar to the Will-War described in The Marches? It never says anywhere that the servants are directly controlled in that manner, but I can't see any other reason that they would be denied the use of their full Will when told to do something unpleasant. "Chop up these bodies and dispose of them. Yes, I know you wouldn't do this for your own wife if she asked you, but so what? I'm asking you. Hop to it, Monkey-boy!" Ideas, anyone? Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 12:20:39 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words On Thu, Jan 07, 1999 at 06:36:00PM -0500, Walter Milliken wrote: > I suspect he'll take whatever he can get, especially since Eli ought to > be his major opponent, and he's on that extended vacation. It's just > that what Nybbas mostly gets, most easily, is the worse side of mass > communications. > I suspect that Nybbas' primary desire is control of others. To that end, Nybbas needs ratings. If incisive current events analysis generates ratings, he'll go for it. Likewise for Women's Under 21 Beach Volleyball. However, Nybbas will always try to ensure that what the Media displays fits his agenda. Specifically, he will try to ensure that it aids his political allies and hurts his political enemies. The power of modern media gives Nybbas a tremendous amount of leverage with other Demon Princes, and more than that, it gives him flexibility. The Media can promote the Game as easily as it can promote Lust, while Fleurity is limited by technological developments in how far he can change sides in Hell's political arena. (As a specific example, he is hindered in approaching Andrealphus not only by his alliance with Saminga, but by a lack of genuine aphrodisiacs, making him a competitor rather than a partner.) Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In our revolutionary court we are guided not by articles of the law and not by the degree of extenuating circumstances; in the tribunal we must proceed on the basis of considerations of expediency." the Gulag Archipelago, by Alexander Solzhenitsyn. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 12:28:00 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Some questions about 'The Game' On Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 02:51:11PM +0000, Leath Sheales wrote: > 1) Asmodues servants can identify members of their Band and their > dissonance. Is this part of Asmodeus' Band Attunement, or a special > ability granted to his servants. eg. A Balseraph of the Game has the > Balseraph, Djinn and Calabim attunements. Does this allow him to > sense Balseraphs, Djinn and Calabim, or can he still only sense > Basleraphs (members of his Band)? > It's the Band attunement. The extra character points for Roles aren't really an attunement, they're the product of Asmodeus' control over mortal institutions, and his obsessive secrecy. (Someday I must put together my list of attunements that aren't really attunements. I think Calabite of the Media may have to top the list.) > 2) Dissonance Binding: Allows the demon to restrict another celestial > in their own dissonance. The victim's Agility is reduced by his > dissonance + the binder's Celestial forces. Does this mean that the > victim *must* have dissonance for this to work, or can it be used on > non-dissonant celestials, who only have the captor's Celestial forces > as the penalty? > My understanding is that it is required that the victim must have dissonance. > 3)Basic Rites: "At sunset, Asmodeus' minions regenerate 2 points of > Essence, not just 1." Does this mean that Renegades of the Game > *must* regenerate 2 Essence every day and allow Asmodeus to know > where they are, It would certainly be in character for Asmodeus. or are they exempt from the "use a Rite, the boss > knows where you are" rule? I very much doubt this one. Or possibly, can they choose to only > regenerate 1 Essence, therefore avoiding the Rite and Asmodeus' > attention? > I suspect that this is the one that's going to apply, for gamist reasons. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In our revolutionary court we are guided not by articles of the law and not by the degree of extenuating circumstances; in the tribunal we must proceed on the basis of considerations of expediency." the Gulag Archipelago, by Alexander Solzhenitsyn. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 12:40:57 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Destiny\Fate of Angels\Demons On Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 01:33:22AM -0500, David Edelstein wrote: > Humans each have their own personal Destiny and Fate. Every single one of > them. But celestials all have the SAME Destiny and Fate -- to become > Word-bound and/or a Superior, and to Fall or Redeem. > > The implications are quite profound, if you think about it. > I disagree. I'm not certain Destiny and Fate can be applied in the same manner to Celestials as it can to humans, given that Celestials do not necessarily have finite lifetimes, and have a much greater understanding of their position in the universe than humans do (most of the time), but if one chooses to apply the concepts in a looser sense, there's no reason to assume that Celestials are any more or less bounded than humans. For example, Mithredath (my Seraph of the Wind) might fall and become a Demon of Theft, but that isn't necessarily her Fate, which is to become a Demon of the Game. And maybe her Destiny depends on Falling and then Redeeming because without that experience, she'll never gain the perspective necessary to reach her full potential. Or maybe she's incapable of Falling, and her Fate is something else. The distinction might therefore be that a human's Destiny will inevitably bring it to Heaven, and its Fate bring it to Hell (so long as that Fate isn't to become Undead), while this isn't the case for Celestials. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In our revolutionary court we are guided not by articles of the law and not by the degree of extenuating circumstances; in the tribunal we must proceed on the basis of considerations of expediency." the Gulag Archipelago, by Alexander Solzhenitsyn. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:54:30 -0500 From: dahak Subject: Re: IN> Gabriel's servants warning slight Final trumpet spoiler Do characters get some advantage for fulfilling their Wyrd [Fate/Destiny]? I was under the impression that in IN Fates and Destinies were the most and least godly things you could achieve. Not that you were going to do so. Adam "Nobody's seen the devil, but everybody blames him." - -----Original Message----- - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 15:56:17 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy At 1:29 PM -0600 1/7/99, Eeyore wrote: > but it might be >easier for Thor to do so than anyone else. In Champions' terms, I'd say that >Jormungandr has a x2 BODY vulnerability to attacks by Thor. (No, I'd never let >a PC take a disad like that.) Either that, or it's yet another place where the >adventure authors of the Revelations Cycle weren't paying attention to what >they were doing. It's that Thor is destined/fated/whatever to kill Jormungandr, deliberately. That did get discussed, and I thought it made it into the book... - - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:54:40 -0500 From: dahak Subject: IN> RE: in_nomine-digest V1 #1084 I still see direct as in Asmodeus has to give you orders in person. Not via some message system. Simple and removes the problem you don't like. Or can he reduce any of his minions to a puddle just by putting out an announcement across a montage of video screens? What happens if I don't receive the celestial tongues message? Say I'm in conversation with another superior or am within an ethereal shield. The below would have to be report to me by time since if I report to someone in Hades or some location called Hades, I've met the order. It still doesn't answer whether IF Asmodeus tells you to do something several times and report in is the same thing. Whether you suffer dissonance for each separately or once for having disobeyed, one collected set of orders. Adam Koran Chapter of Congealed Blood (XCVI. Mecca.) IN the name of the merciful and compassionate God. READ, in the name of thy Lord! Who created man from congealed blood! - -----Original Message----- - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:26:25 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Discord and Rites At 1:05 PM -0500 1/7/99, Walter Milliken wrote: >>>So In your campaign if in his instructions to his minions. >>>Asmodeous tells them to do something three times they >>>take three notes of dissonance if they disobey him? >> >>"Servitor: report to Hades by noon." >>12:00:01. >>"Servitor: report to Hades by 12:30." >>12:30:01 >>"Servitor: report to the nearest Game-Tether by 1pm." >>1:00:01 >> >>Repeat until Asmodeus gets bored. >> >>Remember that Djinn are... patient. > >I don't think it even takes Asmodeus -- just the Renegade's immediate >boss. Which is a lot better use of Asmodeus' time.... No, it takes Asmodeus -- "by disobeying any of his direct orders." Of course, it only takes a brief thought every half-hour or hour or so. - - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1086 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.