From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Jan 8 11:11:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA15220 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:11:53 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id KAA16222 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:57:14 -0600 Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:57:14 -0600 Message-Id: <199901081657.KAA16222@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1087 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, January 8 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1087 In this digest: Re: IN> Is the flavor text canon? IN> RE: in_nomine-digest V1 #1085 IN> Gabriel's servants warning slight Final trumpet spoiler. Re: IN> Loki Re: IN> RE: in_nomine-digest V1 #1084 Re: IN> Is the flavor text canon? IN> product quality and tethers IN> nybbas Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words IN> Servants IN> LSE IN> Destiny\Fate of Angels\Demons Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words Re: IN> LSE Re: IN> Destiny\Fate of Angels\Demons Re: IN> Destiny\Fate of Angels\Demons Re: IN> Discord and Rites ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:54:36 -0500 From: dahak Subject: Re: IN> Is the flavor text canon? Apocrypha: Sacred texts either Jewish or Christian but are outside of canon. Widely believed to contain esoteric knowledge. For example: The book of James, Acts of Saint Peter, The Apocalypse of St Paul. From the Greek for hidden things. The Fun bits. Like: Demon princes turning humans into demons. Elizabeth, Archangel of Trent, has ruled. This never happens. Or Vignettes. Or Casca's Dark Victory. Deuterocanonical Apocrypha: The volume of Jewish sacred texts whose value for dogmatic purposes are in argument but which are acceptable for moral instruction. Normally held as usable for argument where no canon exists but not acceptable for refuting canon. [Historically the protestants did not accept the value of doctrine based on these volumes but the Council of Trent and at least some of the Orthodox churches came to the opinion that these volumes where of equal authority to the bible.] For example Bel and the Dragon, some of the book of Ruth, The books of Judith, Susanna, and Tobit. The first and second books of the Maccabees. Like: Lilith not being cruel. No canon contradicts it, but no good argument can postulate it as an axiom. [Irony mode engaged]Or possibly anything Walter says.[Irony mode disengaged] IIRC The council of Trent came within one vote of declaring The Revelation of St John as Apocrypha. Adam Canning Bel and the Dragon 1:26 But give me leave, O king, and I shall slay this dragon without sword or staff. The king said, I give thee leave. - -----Original Message----- Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:56:16 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Is the flavor text canon? At 2:15 PM -0500 1/7/99, Samovar3@aol.com wrote: >Since an angry Djinn Princess has repeatedly mentioned it, I know that the >vignettes in the book are non-canon. What about the (for lack of a better >name) flavor text that accompanies some of the sections? They're more likely to be canon... Unless they contradict existing material. >To illustrate what >I'm talking about, in the APG (or IPG) under the section dealing with mixed >groups of renegade angels and demons, Las Vegas is mentioned as being Mammon's >town. Is this "official" or is it just fluff? Deutercanonical, I think the term is? Since there's nothing else contradicting it, I'm inclined to let it stand as-is, along with the comment about San Francisco being owned by angels, which was in FotM, IIRC. - - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ - ------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:54:27 -0500 From: dahak Subject: IN> RE: in_nomine-digest V1 #1085 Not what the write up says though. This particular concept is nice but not any part of canon that has been published. - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jan 99 14:28 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Gabriel's servants warning slight Final trumpet spoiler. >> Thor killed it. Some PC party's can match Thor's damage output according to >> his stats. > >Thor killed it, because he's the only being that can. Much as werewolves >can only be killed by silver, Midgard Serpents can only be killed by >Thors. :) I remember when this topic came up among the authors. I think the theory was that, as an ethereal entity, it was part of the mythical pattern forming the Midgard Serpent that it was specifically vulnerable to Thor and his hammer, since the mythos that they spring from says he's the one to slay it. Essentially, what Richard said above. - - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:54:25 -0500 From: dahak Subject: IN> Gabriel's servants warning slight Final trumpet spoiler. Final trumpet page 93 Playing the Fourth Trumpet text box paragraph 2 : Jormungandr should be a convincing evil presence. It is on a par with a superior though not as smart. Final trumpet page 90 Jormungandr text box paragraph 2: Unfortunately Jormungandr has the ability to regenerate its body if its head is left intact. The Norse Gods could have told Uriel that, if he hadn't been so busy hunting them. Fighting pure destructive forces [sic] of this level without knowing if they have a way of recovering is stupidity. Thor's ability to kill it I admit is aided by the fact that he has a weapon powerful enough to hurt it. But that weapon has stats and could be matched by weapons carried by PC's. A properly enchanted Sword of Laurence comes into the same power range. Adam Odin tells the players it is Thor's Wyrd to kill Jormungandr? Is that Fate or Destiny or Both? - -----Original Message----- Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 13:40:30 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, dahak wrote: > Jormungandr [The Midguard serpent] is described as being of equivalent > power to a superior in Final Trumpet. I'm not too sure of that. I didn't find any references to Jormungandr's status as a superior-like being; some stats are actually given (attack score of 12, 1d10 damage when it hits[1], and so on). The book does not that no weapon but Mjolnir can harm it, but that's a far cry from being a Superior. > Uriel in person failed to kill it. Admittedly due to stupidity rather than > lack of combat power. Stupidity? He cut Jormungandr's HEAD *off*! It's a reasonable assumption that, when you cut something's head off and it stops moving, that it's dead! Granted he had a lack of information (he didn't know it regenerates), but that's hardly stupidity. > Thor killed it. Some PC party's can match Thor's damage output according to > his stats. Thor killed it, because he's the only being that can. Much as werewolves can only be killed by silver, Midgard Serpents can only be killed by Thors. :) Richard Gant [1] 1d10? Where did the decision to use 1d10 for Jormungandr's damage come from? - - - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - - - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:54:33 -0500 From: dahak Subject: Re: IN> Loki Except the Nephilim are monsters. Like Loki's Children: Jormungandr, Fenrir and Slepnir. Loki on the other hand looks human, except when he decides not to. Much like some PC's. Point b) The possibility alone is enough to give PC angels a case of the lurgy. Point C) is hidden in Canon doubt and uncertainty. Adam Koran The Chapter Of The Angels (XXXV. Mecca.) In the name of the merciful and compassionate God. Praise belongs to' God, the originator of the heavens and the earth; who makes the angels His messengers, endued with wings in pairs, or threes or fours; He adds to creation what He pleases; verily, God is mighty over all! - -----Original Message----- Original message: Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 11:38:06 -0800 From: "B.H." dahak wrote: > > You know of course that makes Loki the son of a giant. > [not unreasonable from the stories about him and some > of his preferences in sexual partners.] > You all remember that the Gregori are giants. > > Which means of course that: > > Loki is one of the children of the Gregori. Not necessarily. a) You forget the Nephallim, b) There were probably a lot of Ethereal Giants too, c) Not all origin stories out of myth and legend really apply to Ethereals. Especially not /all/ of the creation stories.... Unless each and every part of the world was created separately and then fitted together like an overlapping jigsaw puzzle /and/ God was just created the same way any other Ethereal God was. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 13:22:34 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> RE: in_nomine-digest V1 #1084 On Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 07:54:40AM -0500, dahak wrote: > I still see direct as in Asmodeus has to give you orders in person. > Not via some message system. Simple and removes the problem you don't like. > It may be simple, but to me it doesn't make sense. I might add that I always interpreted it as having superior with a small 's', so that it included your supervisor, and everybody else above you in the chain of command. It forces plotting underlings to be indirect, and to follow the rules to the letter, which is a good thing for atmosphere, IMO. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In our revolutionary court we are guided not by articles of the law and not by the degree of extenuating circumstances; in the tribunal we must proceed on the basis of considerations of expediency." the Gulag Archipelago, by Alexander Solzhenitsyn. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 13:25:34 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Is the flavor text canon? On Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 07:54:36AM -0500, dahak wrote: > Like: Demon princes turning humans into demons. Elizabeth, Archangel of > Trent, has ruled. This never happens. Or Vignettes. Or Casca's Dark > Victory. > Dark Victory is, in fact, the work of Redneck, who admittedly has been lurking/absent for some time now. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In our revolutionary court we are guided not by articles of the law and not by the degree of extenuating circumstances; in the tribunal we must proceed on the basis of considerations of expediency." the Gulag Archipelago, by Alexander Solzhenitsyn. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 05:56:11 PST From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> product quality and tethers "Dozens. Remember, Tethers don't only form at the big, obvious places, nor are all big, obvious places Tethers. And even then, assuming the same places are picked, the author's or GM's viewpoint will bias who they think should own the Tether." We'll, in my experience when you pare down the choices you aren't left with all that many. IMC a lot of potential sites just aren't powerful enough anymore - they are too old or too obscure to remain powerful in the modern day. For example, London has the house where Oscar Wilde was arrested (not sure I think it was a hotel, I don't recall). This would have made an excellent tether to Kobal at the time, but not anymore. It just doesn't retain the status after all that time. In fact I can see Saminga and Andrealphus having much more power in London (and possibly many major cities in the Western world) but not anymore. IMC Andre is reduced to hanging round places like King's Cross and Leicester Square (this is all from memory!) where the prostitutes and junkies hang out. For what it's worth I haven't given Andre a specific tether because I couldn't find anywhere prominent enough - ordinary Soho clubs/brothels don't warrant a proper tether for me. They share a connection, but more akin to Yves? Kronos links to libraries. A different kind of tether. (Oh dear now I'm confusing myself!) But to get back to the point, it does seem to me that really one's options aren't as diverse as you might think - at least for London (perhaps I should use the acronym IML, In My London!). The Stock Exchange is another example; I went for the Bank of England because the Stock Exchange doesn't really have trading unless it'' done on computer - - the place is mainly offices. Also I have more info on the Bank so that kinda sealed it really. So today it's just not viable; therefore Marc has always had the Bank - but using the SE for Greed is a nice idea, but again not viable in 1999. (If you want to find Mammon IML - go to Selfridges and speak to the demon of The Bargain Basement!) "Sorry, you did, at least in my case. I'm doing well to remember *what's* been posted to this list, never mind who did it…. There are a *lot* of people on this list, and it's hard to remember what various people are doing in their campaigns." Fair enough, my apologies. "It could, and it badly needs a revision." Here's the 64,000$ question: will it get one? Will there be version two? "A couple years ago, I think there was even an SJGames T-shirt, that had something on it like "Don't even ASK about In Nomine"...." Now you need one with 'Don't ask about Martin Arnold'! I must confess, and you needn't answer this, just how IN got to take so long? And while I'm here, why was this game released as opposed to a straight translation of INS/MV; why so different? "Certainly I'd disagree with some of the things that were included in the Cycle books." What are the plans regarding further release of extended superiors? One sourcebook is out of the question, but how about putting more of them into each single book - whatever books they may be. Martin ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 05:56:57 PST From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> nybbas Nybbas; Demon Prince of the Media An Extended Superior Writeup For In Nomine Media 2 (usu. prec. by the) the main means of mass communication (esp. newspapers and broadcasting) regarded collectively. Nybbas is bored; or rather gets bored very easily. He knows the drudgery of Hell all too well. He served under Vapula for years without gratitude or acknowledgement. And that was all he wanted someone to appreciate his worth. But now his attention span is minimal like television whose audiences he controls. Without this drive to remain on the edge, without pushing the boundaries (and the ratings further) the boredom - frustration that barely masks the empty realisation of what his life is as a demon - begins to set in. It is very hard serving Nybbas because no one can understand how he feels; he is never really himself, that is he is never really honest (as much as a demon can be). Those in whom he might confide will find an endless series of acts, like the performer who is always 'on'. Nybbas has no identity of his own, and that is what he is forever after. This is not to say Nybbas is not evil or malicious; he was raised under Lucifer's tutelage like all the infernals; how could he be otherwise? His pitiful toil under Vapula, endless getting nowhere and always being pushed around by the more charismatic and powerful servants took their toll on Nybbas. His maliciousness is carefully honed and refined. Revenge is a major force n Nybbas' dreams, but it is much more than a simple basic vengeance. Nybbas wants to show them all, once and for all, that he is 'someone'. To him, world (or universal) conquest or merely temporal, childish gains; it's one's own soul that is, in the end, the only battlefield. He who knows himself knows everything, and is therefore victorious. Or some such marketing slogan. His invention (which would have arrived sooner on earth had it not been for those above him trying to manipulate and steal his ideas. He had to work by himself with little or nothing in order to safeguard his ideas), television, has forever changed the face of the world - even in Hell. When victory came, with a Princedom, Nybbas thought he had realised his dreams - that he would finally be 'happy'. When that did not come, when the emptiness began to creep in with the self-doubt ('can I rule in hell?' 'so now I'm royalty, so what?'), Nybbas made plans. This is the essence of Nybbas; he plans and schemes, often working harder than many other Princes, pushing the boundaries by pushing back the emptiness. The world of television is shallow and as unfulfilling as Nybbas feels himself. At his command is perhaps the most powerful force on earth and yet it has no soul, no meaning. He keeps on pushing; enslaving the human race under the banner of emptyvee isn't enough because it's a finite end and the fear only comes back with a searing 'so what now?' Nybbas is cruel because he sees no value in those who work for him or with him. Everything mirrors what and how he feels - if indeed he does feel. He doesn't know love, for instance (assuming a demon could ever love), as anything other than a slogan or media concept. He lives vicariously, but never truly feeling properly. He is the emotional equivalent of a serial killer. He would only know love by watching it on TV, and that has become his reality. Even the static and the snow after Closedown are more welcome than the emptiness. We can all thank hell's newest Prince for the advent of 24-hour broadcasting. In fact the whole non-stop, modern lifestyle is an expression of Nybbas through and through. Priorities As previously stated, such limited aims as total domination are fine for a power like Saminga, but not for Nybbas. While he is paranoid in his dealings with others, especially powerful beings such as the Princes, he thrives on this because it too helps keep the emptiness at bay. So Nybbas will continue to broaden his power base, and it may well seem as though domination and control are important parts of the Media's plans. Nybbas' main priority is the continued pushing of 'the edge' (very much like the typical William Gibson 'netsurfer' character in fact), all in search of himself. Those who can't keep up are mercilessly tossed aside. Competition is a buzzword in Nybbas army (come to think of it, so is buzzword!), those who are in the spotlight are treated like royalty (as Nybbas gets off on how they feel then), but are always keeping one eye on their back with another on the second had that ticks away their fifteen minutes! Of one thing you can be sure of in Perdition, nothing lasts forever. (An eternity spent in Perdition is not Nybbas' idea of heaven!) Martin ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 09:12:09 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words Elizabeth Bartley wrote: > >Except for Lilith, the Demon Princes promote, and appear to be powered by, >solely the darker side of their Words. I don't think even Lilith is immune from this: she just has better PR is all. It's just that us moderns tend to be depraved in the ways that make Lilith's brand of evil a bit more attractive than, say, Baal's. (Whose obsession with honor, pride and hierarchy must have hit warrior classes throughout history like the proverbial third rail.) The ideas that "everyone is equal" and "live free or die," which are popular in modern society, are -wrong-. Lilith's promotion of these concepts is an -evil-. There is a great chain of creation, ordered from least to greatest, and the lesser ought and should obey the greater, because they see more clearly what is needful for the lesser's well-being. E.g., a man will give his dog baths and heartworm pills, even though the dog doesn't like either, because he knows better than the dog, or as a mother will force her child to do his schoolwork, because she knows how the child should spend his time better than he does, or as a guardian angel instructing a human on how to live. The demons try and invert this natural ordering -- but there are more ways to be imperfect than perfect. Some Princes, like Baal and Kronos, pervert the structure of leadership so that the greater demand robotic obedience from the lesser. This emphasizes one side, submission to a greater whole, until the individual conscience is extinguished. Others, like Lilith and Saminga, fail to properly instruct the lesser orders and trample over them like ants. This emphasizes one side, individual will, until it becomes pride and uncharitableness. (Remember that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by God for a lack of hospitality towards strangers -- charity is a REALLY BIG DEAL in Judaism, Christianity and Islam.) Either way this contravenes divine law. Likewise, the notion of the Lockean state of liberty is a flawed one as well. Mills's harm principle -- the notion that anything is ok as long as it doesn't violate another's rights -- is clearly not correct, since the divinely ordained order (which includes, for example, the Celestial Inquisition) doesn't agree with it. An example: Angels and democracy. Angels don't believe in liberty in the familiar sense, and don't believe in equality either. So how come they do things like support fledgling democracies? While the idea that people have an intrinsic right to govern themselves and so should maintain democratic institutions is bunk to an angel, the fact remains that people are mostly bad. If a theocracy or somesuch were instituted, human nature would lead inevitably to corruption and tyranny. A democracy is a "least-bad" alternative, since different groups attempts to tyrannize each other will tend to somewhat cancel out. If someone invented a better way of organizing society, there would be no nostalgia for democracy on the part of the angels. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:22:06 +0000 () From: "David.Evans" Subject: Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words Kevin Walsh sic scrpisit: > > On Thu, Jan 07, 1999 at 06:36:00PM -0500, Walter Milliken wrote: > > I suspect he'll take whatever he can get, especially since Eli ought to > > be his major opponent, and he's on that extended vacation. It's just > > that what Nybbas mostly gets, most easily, is the worse side of mass > > communications. Hybbas goes for quantity over quality, with a slat towards what siuts his agenda at the time of production. Eli and his Servitors go for quality over quantity, I'd expect (but wanting the most of each) while mephasising what they feel is nedded most as a valuable message. > The Media can > promote the Game as easily as it can promote Lust, while Fleurity is > limited by technological developments in how far he can change sides in > Hell's political arena. (As a specific example, he is hindered in > approaching Andrealphus not only by his alliance with Saminga, but by a > lack of genuine aphrodisiacs, making him a competitor rather than a > partner.) Oh, I dunno. Viagra must give Fleurity one helluva lot of leverage in negotiations with Andrealphus; I bet Andre'd *love* to give free samples of Viagra to the general populus just as much as Fleurity would. :-))) Be seeing you... David. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 14:43:35 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words On Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 02:22:06PM +0000, David.Evans wrote: > Kevin Walsh sic scrpisit: > > scrpisit? > > The Media can > > promote the Game as easily as it can promote Lust, while Fleurity is > > limited by technological developments in how far he can change sides in > > Hell's political arena. (As a specific example, he is hindered in > > approaching Andrealphus not only by his alliance with Saminga, but by a > > lack of genuine aphrodisiacs, making him a competitor rather than a > > partner.) > > Oh, I dunno. Viagra must give Fleurity one helluva lot of leverage in > negotiations with Andrealphus; I can't believe I forgot the existence of Viagra. Hmm...didn't the demand for Viagra peak a while ago, though? Or is it just that demand fell below expectations? This is possibly related to the expense. I bet Andre'd *love* to give free samples > of Viagra to the general populus just as much as Fleurity would. :-))) > There was some pressure (or worries in official circles that there might be pressure) to put it on the Medical Card in Ireland, on the grounds that impotence is a medical condition. I don't think the impact of that on the public finances would have been very good. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In our revolutionary court we are guided not by articles of the law and not by the degree of extenuating circumstances; in the tribunal we must proceed on the basis of considerations of expediency." the Gulag Archipelago, by Alexander Solzhenitsyn. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 10:04:21 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > Angels and democracy. Angels don't believe in liberty in the > familiar sense, and don't believe in equality either. So how > come they do things like support fledgling democracies? Perhaps, also, they realize that it passes human ability to determine who the superior people ARE. Humans wind up using such hopelessly wrong-headed markers as race, gender, nationality, social class, physical strength or beauty, or wealth, as indicators of spiritual superiority. So a legal fiction of equality is preferable. (N.B.: While Abrahamic tradition doesn't make a big deal of equality, it isn't all that attached to rank, either. When the Israelites demanded that the prophet Samuel appoint a king over them, he said, in effect, "All right, but you're REALLY not going to like the result. But you ASKED for it...") Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:30:09 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Servants >>>Question: This'll probably be addressed in the Liber Servitorum,<<< Yes. >>>But what exactly does that mean? Where does this control originate from?<<< It's a supernatural, Symphonic connection, a master-servant relationship. The servant's will is suboordinated to that of his master. >>>A servant with a resource level of 6 probably has no Will left of his own (with regard to his master) and would slay members of his family if ordered.<<< Not necessarily...if that servant happens to have a Will of 12, he can still resist an order with a target number of 6. Also, servants can get bonuses to resist orders, up to a maximum of double their Will, if the order is particularly distasteful to them (ordering someone to slay members of his family would probably qualify). So even a servant/6 with a Will of 6, who normally has no chance of resisting orders, would probably get his Will doubled and have a 6 or less chance of disobeying an order like that. (A servant can also spend Essence to improve his chance to resist an order.) >>>This implies that a Resource-6 servant is either a fanatic or is controlled in some other way. Money? Fear/intimidation? The promise of a Heavenly reward (or at least a condo in a nicer suburb of Hell)? Or is it a more direct control similar to the Will-War described in The Marches?<<< The latter. A servant's level is not necessarily an indicator of loyalty -- a low-level servant might be very loyal, but easily able to resist orders if he chooses to, while a high-level servant might hate his master, but not have the ability to resist him. - -David (who wrote the servants section for the Liber Servitorum) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:33:13 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> LSE I just wanted to comment on the Bank of England vs the Stock Exchange as tethers in London. IMG, also set in London, I chose the Stock Exchange quite advisedly and I'll tell you why. Right up until the 'big bang' (mid-1980s) all trading on the stock exchange floor was done on an honour basis (ie. on a handshake), and accounts were settled by the brokers and jobbers at the end of the day's trading. No written contracts were drawn up until the end of the day, but if the jobber had given his word that you'd get some stock at a given price then you could carry on and trade with it on the basis of that offer, in the knowledge that he'd keep to it when you 'settled up' It sounds very weird. It _is_ very weird, but the reputation for integrity of the traders on the floor of the London Exchange is one of the factors in the City of London becoming one of the world's three main financial centres. The actual motto of the LSE is 'My word is my bond' -- to me, that pretty much has Marc written all over it. I also don't quite see what you mean about 'it doesn't have trading unless it is done on computers' -- of course it is done on computers these days, but the LSE is where the accounts are settled. Anyway, all I was going to say is that you can see how two people who know the same city really well (I'm a Londoner and I've spent most of my life there) can still come to different conclusions about it. jo (And since I did playtesting on the tetherbook, you can be sure I sanity-checked the London ones. I still don't agree with the Temple for Dominic, mind :) ) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:41:35 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Destiny\Fate of Angels\Demons >>> I disagree. I'm not certain Destiny and Fate can be applied in the same manner to Celestials as it can to humans,<<< I'm not certain of that either; in this case I am definitely just expressing my opinion, not my interpretation of canon. :) >>>given that Celestials do not necessarily have finite lifetimes, and have a much greater understanding of their position in the universe than humans do (most of the time), but if one chooses to apply the concepts in a looser sense, there's no reason to assume that Celestials are any more or less bounded than humans.<<< Since I'm a fan of making human free will a vital and important element in the game, and something that distinguishes them from celestials, I think there's a good reason to say they are less bounded than celestials, though no reason to _assume_ they are (based on canon), no. >>> For example, Mithredath (my Seraph of the Wind) might fall and become a Demon of Theft, but that isn't necessarily her Fate, which is to become a Demon of the Game.<<< Destiny is by definition that which sends you to Heaven, while Fate is that which sends you to Hell. Personally, I think Destinies and Fates are general rather than specific; a human's Fate might be to die in prison for murdering someone, but it's not "kill Bill Johnson with a steak knife over an argument over who will pick up the check and die in prison because of it" (implying that if he kills someone other than Bill Johnson, or kills Bill Johnson with a beer stein or over an argument about a woman, he hasn't met his Fate). >>>The distinction might therefore be that a human's Destiny will inevitably bring it to Heaven, and its Fate bring it to Hell (so long as that Fate isn't to become Undead), while this isn't the case for Celestials.<<< That's possible. Actually I'm leaning towards the theory that celestials don't have Destinies and Fates per se. For humans, once you've gone to Heaven or Hell, you've already achieved your Destiny or Fate; there's no way (in canon) that a blessed soul can go to Hell or that a damned soul can be freed from Hell and go to Heaven. But angels and demons _can_ switch states. Perhaps human Fates and Destinies are one-time and irreversible, whereas a celestial gets a new one every time he experiences a state-change (e.g. Redeeming or Falling), meaning that while it is an angel's Fate to Fall, upon Falling he then gains the Destiny of Redeeming. Likewise, even if it's an angel's Destiny to become an Archangel, becoming an Archangel doesn't mean he's now incapable of meeting his Fate, since even an Archangel can Fall. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 10:03:01 -0600 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > There is a great chain of creation, ordered from least to greatest, and > the lesser ought and should obey the greater, because they see more clearly > what is needful for the lesser's well-being. E.g., a man will give his > dog baths and heartworm pills, even though the dog doesn't like either, > because he knows better than the dog, or as a mother will force her child > to do his schoolwork, because she knows how the child should spend his > time better than he does, or as a guardian angel instructing a human on > how to live. There is a major flaw in the God>Man equals Man>Dog analogy. Dog's are intellectually inferior to humans, but that is something that no human caused or can change. God, on the other hand, is claimed to be omniscient and omnipotent. He not only created humans as they are, he created us with the inability to "see more clearly what is needful for the lesser's well-being." Unless I misunderstand what the word "omnipotent" means, he could have done it differently but chose not to. As he is responsible for my lack of awareness, I feel somewhat less inclined to trust in him completely. I'm sure that's how Lilith feels about it. In real life, I tend to agree with her. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 15:57:23 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> LSE On Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 03:33:13PM +0000, Hart, Joanna wrote: > I just wanted to comment on the Bank of England vs the Stock Exchange as > tethers in London. > > The actual motto of the LSE is 'My word is my bond' -- to me, that pretty > much has Marc written all over it. > I'm trying to remember which war the Bank of England was set up in response to, but for the life of me I can't. The Bank of England was a very significant innovation for both commerce and war financing, though. (It was the first Central Bank in history, right?) I wish I could think of a plausible Trade Tether for Ireland, though. The shipyards in Belfast were too sectarian to make good Tethers to Heaven, to my mind. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In our revolutionary court we are guided not by articles of the law and not by the degree of extenuating circumstances; in the tribunal we must proceed on the basis of considerations of expediency." the Gulag Archipelago, by Alexander Solzhenitsyn. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 16:07:25 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Destiny\Fate of Angels\Demons On Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 10:41:35AM -0500, David Edelstein wrote: > Since I'm a fan of making human free will a vital and important element in > the game, and something that distinguishes them from celestials, I think > there's a good reason to say they are less bounded than celestials, though > no reason to _assume_ they are (based on canon), no. > There are, of course, a large number of other ways in which humans are special. > >>> For example, Mithredath (my Seraph of the Wind) might fall and become a > Demon of Theft, but that isn't necessarily her Fate, which is to become a > Demon of the Game.<<< > > Destiny is by definition that which sends you to Heaven, while Fate is that > which sends you to Hell. I was defining Destiny as "the best you can be" and Fate as "the worst you can be". This argument is of course linked to the question of morality independent of dissonance conditions. Personally, I think Destinies and Fates are > general rather than specific; a human's Fate might be to die in prison for > murdering someone, but it's not "kill Bill Johnson with a steak knife over > an argument over who will pick up the check and die in prison because of > it" (implying that if he kills someone other than Bill Johnson, or kills > Bill Johnson with a beer stein or over an argument about a woman, he hasn't > met his Fate). > Indeed, though in reference to particular ways someone might go after Falling/Redemption, they aren't necessarily minor questions of detail. But angels and demons _can_ switch > states. Perhaps human Fates and Destinies are one-time and irreversible, > whereas a celestial gets a new one every time he experiences a state-change > (e.g. Redeeming or Falling), meaning that while it is an angel's Fate to > Fall, upon Falling he then gains the Destiny of Redeeming. Likewise, even > if it's an angel's Destiny to become an Archangel, becoming an Archangel > doesn't mean he's now incapable of meeting his Fate, since even an > Archangel can Fall. > There is, of course, the question of whether God will wrap up the universe and make a Final Judgement, which would make the concepts of Destiny and Fate more ultimate for Celestials. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In our revolutionary court we are guided not by articles of the law and not by the degree of extenuating circumstances; in the tribunal we must proceed on the basis of considerations of expediency." the Gulag Archipelago, by Alexander Solzhenitsyn. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 11:20:07 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Destiny\Fate of Angels\Demons David Edelstein wrote: > But angels and demons _can_ switch states. Kevin Walsh wrote: > There is, of course, the question of whether God will wrap up the > universe and make a Final Judgement, which would make the concepts > of Destiny and Fate more ultimate for Celestials. I once proposed some some modifications to IN, for Christian- flavored games, one of which was to add the states Blessed and Damned, in which a spirit is eternally fixed as angel or demon, having, in effect, shaped its character in one direction or the other until it has *used* *up* its free will. Most Archangels and Demon Princes would presumably be in those categories, with exciting exceptions. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:52:54 -0500 From: dahak Subject: Re: IN> Discord and Rites Remember Asmodeus believes that demons can acquire selflessness as a discord. So he has his people kill you for having dissonance. Consider that for him sending one message to Staciel a day [saying bring me the quivering semi-coherent remains of the characters forces] is less likely to end up handing one of his servants to the other side and be cheaper on essence. After all he is a game theorist. Look at the options. After the first report in message. Anyone who would report in: Will if they can. If they can't they will when they can to get rid of the dissonance if nothing else.. Anyone who isn't going to report in is going to find loop holes in the instructions to avoid dissonance if they can. If they can't they are forced to either try to defect to heaven or come home to die. The extra dissonance will make them believe that if they hold out long enough they at least have a chance with an Archangel. Anyone who is already an Angel has a steady supply of essence and no problems. Anyone in Limbo is going to come out of trauma with lots of essence and discords. His best case if he carries on is that the minion will die redeeming. His worst is it will redeem and he will feed it enough essence a day to keep it very happy. Once he puts it between a rock and a hard place, the hard place starts looking better. If he sends the minions of the game out to capture the errant minion he has the chance of getting the minion or at least some of the forces invested in it back. Plus he minimises the chance of their being another angel out there. If any Demon prince is willing to spend the time and effort to find you then all he has to do is use Correspondence liberally to drag you into his presence. Renegades survive because either they have slinked off without being noticed or they are not valuable enough for the prince to involve himself personally in recovering. It doesn't matter which prince wants a renegade dead, if he is willing to spend 1/600th of his time [1 action taking 6 seconds every 3600 seconds] as you suggest on dealing with him he is a walking collection of recyclable forces unless he can find a new superior fast. [Subject Change] On the subject of rites. All that I can find in canon is: 1) A rite is a resonance to a word which means that when you create certain physical or mental patterns you regenerate essence. 2) You only regenerate a limited amount of essence per day from any rite. 3) If you exploit a demonic rite while redeeming you gain essence and dissonance. I can find no mention of it being voluntary that you regenerate essence. It says nothing about fully redeemed angels and previous rites. Which may be where Damion escapes dissonance. Since Eli gave her his choir attunement which is usually the sign of having become a full angel. There may be other rite pairs that cause this problem but from the evidence given Daimon met the conditions for both. It is possible to meet just Eli's but its going to take effort and small 5 minute nonsexual but still loving periods after each 25 minutes to get away with it. Adam Note: since a human vessel costs 75 essence per level or 3 character points per level. To a superior 1 character point equals about 25 essence. Thus 1 force or servitor distinction costs 250 essence. Possible corollary: Superiors can store and deploy at least 250 essence at a time. Since animal vessels cost less essence it is surprising most superiors don't make more use of them. The average starting character is made up of at least 131 character points. Is there a cannon term for a point of essence? Chord perhaps? Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:35:38 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Discord and Rites >>And how are you going to fight them? The way Asmodeus would set it up IMC >>is to send personal messages telling them to report back for duty >>within the hour every hour, which if disobeyed will inflict dissonance. >>Very shortly the Renegade will be a puddle of Discord, permanently unable >>to use its resonance. (Remember the secondary effects of gaining >>dissonance?) >So In your campaign if in his instructions to his minions. >Asmodeous tells them to do something three times they >take three notes of dissonance if they disobey him? "Servitor: report to Hades by noon." 12:00:01. "Servitor: report to Hades by 12:30." 12:30:01 "Servitor: report to the nearest Game-Tether by 1pm." 1:00:01 Repeat until Asmodeus gets bored. Remember that Djinn are... patient. >Not to mention the fact that its direct orders, >IE in person rather than through messages I count Celestial Tongues as "in person" enough for orders. It's a direct "from me to you" metaphysical communication. If that won't satisfy you, then use Correspondence and Ethereal Tongues. (I think it's Correspondence, in the Songbook -- the one that lets you affect far-away things.) Asm: "Servitor, report to Hades by noon." Ren: "No! I won't! I won't!" Asm: "And don't talk back to me." Ren: "*&^%&(^ you!" Ren: . o O (Ow.) 11:59:59 Asm: "Two seconds to go, Servitor." 12:00:01 Ren: . o O (Ow.) >and the essence cost involved in using Cel Tongues >on the player multiple times. 1 point of Essence per point of dissonance? Cheap at the price! Just flog it out of some humans or have your corrupt cops lean on some Shal-Mari sites for protection Essence. >>You can be made a Renegade for just about anything.[...] > >Asmodeus still needs a reason to get rid of you. If you're *his*, he needs the reason, "I think you're acting like a traitor or an incompetant, and being incompetant in the Game is treasonous to Hell. Now, let's make an Example." >>>Most of the above notes can be got rid of by either following your orders >>>again >>>if your that way inclined and if not well that's the cost for getting >>>from under the thumb of one of the universes top three or four micro >>>managers. > >>No, it makes them unplayable. The Heart is the focus point of a >>Celestial's connection to a Word, and if it's cracked, the connection is >>gone. > >So how can they use word based attunements? An Attunement is something that changes the very being of the person who gets it. It's like a tattoo. You can't remove it without flaying away the skin it's on. In this model, dissonance conditions are something imposed from pseudo- outside. There is a way to sever oneself from them: breaking the Heart, which is at once part of you and separate from you. >>>PS on rites as far as I could find there are mentions of not being able >>>to use them but renegades who can't can become angels who can. > >>I believe it's for instant redemption cases, rather than renegades on the >>run for X years who see the light. Anyway, Demon Princes have the option >>of letting Renegades use their Rites, but if they're used, the DP finds >>out where the Renegade is, so most Renegades aren't going to use that >>option. > >That is a better option but only at best deutrocanonical. I'll work on this. Though it's heavily implied on p. 94 of the IPG, top of the second column. >>>Nothing about what happens to fully fledged angels with demonic rites. >> >>If demonic rites are dissonant, demonic rites are dissonant. The normal >>dissonance rules apply. > >All dissonance conditions are situational. But if you get dissonance, you get dissonance, and it follows the normal rules. >The problem comes with characters like Damion in Maya's Fiat Justinia >who have both Andre's 30 minute sex rite and Eli's one hour making love >rite. The first triggers most times when you do the second. You can choose whether or not to use a Rite. Presumably, he didn't feel like using a mucky Lust Rite when he was being sharing with Kanah. Or else he was *making love*, not having sex. - - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1087 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.