From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Jan 8 14:44:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA24377 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:44:40 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id OAA06042 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:33:07 -0600 Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:33:07 -0600 Message-Id: <199901082033.OAA06042@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1088 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, January 8 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1088 In this digest: IN> Fates and Destinies Re: IN> Discord and Rites IN> RE: in_nomine-digest V1 #1086 IN> RE: in_nomine-digest V1 #1086 Re: IN> 'Nother Unofficial IN-page... Re: R: IN> Baphomet und Templars + INRI Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words Re: IN> New Member Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words IN> RE: in_nomine-digest V1 #1087 IN> RE: in_nomine-digest V1 #1087 IN> LSE Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words IN> Tattoos Re: IN> Gabriel's servants Re: IN> Tattoos Re: IN> Is the flavor text canon? Re: IN> Yassa Massa IN> re: Trade tethers in London RE: IN> today's posts ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:52:36 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Fates and Destinies I don't really see why being a superior is especially a 'better' destiny than being an ordinary angel. You'd be more powerful, for sure, but you still need someone around to actually do the work of saving souls (or whatever they do). I kind of like the template-destiny for celestials notion :) Maybe every celestial has the same destiny (to be an angel) and the same fate (to be a demon). So really angels of Yves might be more intolerant of dissonance than just about anyone. They just don't mention it. Angels are created having achieved their destiny. They just have to do angelic things and they will stay there. jo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:35:33 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Discord and Rites On Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 11:52:54AM -0500, dahak wrote: > Remember Asmodeus believes that demons can acquire selflessness as a > discord. So he has his people kill you for having dissonance. Consider that > for him sending one message to Staciel Why Staciel, in particular? Surely he has specialised recovery squads, under the jurisdiction of someone other than Intrigue. > Anyone who would report in: Will if they can. If they can't they will when > they can to get rid of the dissonance if nothing else.. I think the tacit assumption here is that they're not going to report in, because of the fact that they're the ones who ran away in the first place. Those rabbits who wait for the arresting forces to arrive are already in custody and such tactics are not required to deal with them. > Anyone who isn't going to report in is going to find loop holes in the > instructions to avoid dissonance if they can. If they can't they are forced > to either try to defect to heaven or come home to die. The extra dissonance > will make them believe that if they hold out long enough they at least have > a chance with an Archangel. I doubt it. The dissonance will probably give them the Paranoia Discord, if they haven't got it already. I doubt the average Renegade would bet a penny that an Archangel would redeem them if they found that penny on the street. All that propaganda they've been fed all their lives is bound to have an effect. > Anyone who is already an Angel has a steady supply of essence and no > problems. > Anyone in Limbo is going to come out of trauma with lots of essence and > discords. > Anyone who reasons in that way is going to die during redemption, anyway. > If he sends the minions of the game out to capture the errant minion he has > the chance of getting the minion or at least some of the forces invested in > it back. Plus he minimises the chance of their being another angel out > there. > No one was suggesting that they were mutually exclusive. Especially in deutero-canon, where the trick can only be pulled on the Renegades that have Hearts. In that case, you send out the message in order to incapacitate the Renegade's resonance, so that it's an easier target when the hit squad arrives. This is especially important when trying to get Calabim and Habbalah, whose resonances are nasty in combat, and especially fun when used on Shedim. Make it dissonant, shoot out its Vessel, and chain. Of course, if you have reliable agents following the demon, know his movements, etc., you can continue doing this for weeks in order to torment him, and move in whenever you want. This a) might net useful intelligence if the demon _is_ in contact with angels and b) is fun. Anyone who's read the Gulag Archipelago, especially the chapter on arrests and the details of how Bukharin was treated will find it quite in character for Asmodeus. (I regard the Gulag Archipelago as Asmodeus' character sheet.) I wish I remembered the exact quotation I'm thinking of but it went like "Sometimes there was so much superfluous effort, so much well-fed energy invested in those arrests, that it seemed like a game." > If any Demon prince is willing to spend the time and effort to find you > then all he has to do is use Correspondence liberally to drag you into his > presence. > I don't think Demon Princes can use Correspondence 4 to Filter All Space. > Renegades survive because either they have slinked off without being > noticed or they are not valuable enough for the prince to involve himself > personally in recovering. > I imagine Asmodeus takes all Renegades leaving his service personally. > It doesn't matter which prince wants a renegade dead, if he is willing to > spend 1/600th of his time [1 action taking 6 seconds every 3600 seconds] as > you suggest on dealing with him he is a walking collection of recyclable > forces unless he can find a new superior fast. > If the demon is in front of the Demon Prince, yes. Demon Princes are not omnipotent. > I can find no mention of it being voluntary that you regenerate essence. It's implied. Otherwise if someone is full of Essence, and performs an action which falls under the classification of a Rite, the Essence is wasted and can't be gained later that day. And yes, this means that if I were GMing, Daimon would not have generated Essence from the Creation rite. > It says nothing about fully redeemed angels and previous rites. > Why would it be dissonant for one category of angel to use a demonic rite but not another which is, by definition, more bound than the other category. > Which may be where Damion escapes dissonance. Since Eli gave her his choir > attunement which is usually the sign of having become a full angel. > I don't believe in the term full angel. It lacks precision. An angel is an angel. > Is there a cannon term for a point of essence? Chord perhaps? > I believe a number of campaigns use the term "measure". Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In our revolutionary court we are guided not by articles of the law and not by the degree of extenuating circumstances; in the tribunal we must proceed on the basis of considerations of expediency." the Gulag Archipelago, by Alexander Solzhenitsyn. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:40:12 -0500 From: dahak Subject: IN> RE: in_nomine-digest V1 #1086 Casca and I did a list of why people might work for an Angel. It's in the INC under Resources I think. As far as I can tell the resource level measures how valuable that reason is to the human, and thus how much they will put up for it. Oddly enough many of the reasons are the same for Soldiers of hell, except they mostly believe that if your nasty enough Lucy will turn you into an Demon. Sometimes however the resource level is just going to be a measure of the influence the celestials role is going to have over the human. I posted and Angel and Human pair on the list a month or so ago [Salim and Inez] where he hasn't told her about the war but she does what he tells her to because: a) he is the senior FBI special agent in the pair b) he takes her more seriously than their colleagues. c) When they do what he says they catch criminals that apparently logical behaviour would miss. Accusations of d) she wants to go to bed with him have no foundation in observable fact. On the other hand his control over her is somewhat weakened by his eccentric turn of thought [see below]. And she is a member however, gun happy, of one of America's elite law enforcement agencies. Admittedly she has got a need/5 to know what's going on. Along with the need/6 to be taken seriously by the other FBI special agents. She's Will 4 and a resource 1 so she has little chance of not going along with him. Higher resource levels are likely to require more reason that the character will go along [Love, blackmail, revenge, greed, fanaticism that sort of thing.] Does that help even a little? Adam Salim " Let me see if I can get this straight, they are suggesting that I should have an office in a basement because Special Agent Mulder has one in Washington." Inez "That's because he's strange." Salim " He's one of the counties leading experts on the psychology of mass murders, so of course he's strange, after all knowing that much about humans would confuse anybody. But he seemed perfectly pleasant when I met him." Inez " He believes in Flying Saucers too." Salim" Yes, but they are only our problem if they fail to fill in valid flight plans" Inez "What?" Salim" Well we don't have to arrest them until they break federal flight regulations do we?" - -----Original Message----- Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 02:17:47 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: IN> Yassa Massa Question: This'll probably be addressed in the Liber Servitorum, if it hasn't already been discussed on this very list. Servants have two basic stats, Level and Resource. The level part I understand. The resource bit I'm a little fuzzy on. I know the mechanics. The Resource level acts as a negative modifier on the servants Will when said servant is told to do something he'd rather not do. Simple. It shows the level of control over the servant. But what exactly does that mean? Where does this control originate from? A servant with a resource level of 6 probably has no Will left of his own (with regard to his master) and would slay members of his family if ordered. This implies that a Resource-6 servant is either a fanatic or is controlled in some other way. Money? Fear/intimidation? The promise of a Heavenly reward (or at least a condo in a nicer suburb of Hell)? Or is it a more direct control similar to the Will-War described in The Marches? It never says anywhere that the servants are directly controlled in that manner, but I can't see any other reason that they would be denied the use of their full Will when told to do something unpleasant. "Chop up these bodies and dispose of them. Yes, I know you wouldn't do this for your own wife if she asked you, but so what? I'm asking you. Hop to it, Monkey-boy!" Ideas, anyone? Brian A. Rogers - ------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:40:08 -0500 From: dahak Subject: IN> RE: in_nomine-digest V1 #1086 Which gives Furfur lots of opportunity for expansion [and being killed by other superiors] Hardcore after all quite often in my experience has meant either explicit pornography or blacktop. Far less frequently has it had anything to do with music and as frequently it has involved terrorists. So some bonus rites for Furfur's minions: Lie on the white line on a busy Motorway for an hour. [this does not protect you from being run over] Be involved in the production of a book/video/magazine that is beyond the bounds of common taste. Enable the formation of a small group of people who stick rigidly to a set of rules. Commit a gratuitously violent action just to get your name in the press. Adam - -----Original Message----- Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 03:36:11 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Symphonic Language Steel Angel wrote on 08 January 1999 >I was again, thinking (horrible habit) and I wondered, from some of my >reading, if the Symphony has a 'language'? The vignette about the Demon >of Spam (IPG) got me thinking...'Spam' is spiced ham...and a term in >-English-. The -concept- of spam as computer 'fluff' exists elsewhere, >but the word itself varies. Now, is the Demon of Spam merely the demon >of English-speaking 'spam'? Or all spam? And if he is of -all- spam, HOW >could he have gotten from 'spiced ham', to 'useless Email'? I always >pictured Words as more like pure concepts, not 'slang terms'. Lust, >Children, Judgement, War...these are concepts all humans have... >Any ideas? > >- Abracax, Shedite of Riots right... IIRC it is sugested that the Demon of spam manipulated the meaning of the Word Spam so that it meant useless email (I have lent out my copy of the IPG so I can't check), therefore what is important is the different conotations of the Word in the universal conciousness. When people (okay when I) think of the Sword they think of Knights, when they of knights they think Honour legends of Adventurers and the like. Hardcore is probably a better example "Hardcore. That's a tiny Word. What could Lucifer be thinking? Hardcore. Wait, this word is *expandable*. Hardcore could be so much more than the music. Sure, When Rock and Roll gains the power to incite violence, that's Hardcore. But whenever ordinary Lust becomes abusive, that's Hardcore too. Whenever human beings take things to absurd lengths, whenever any average sin crosses the border into the trly Hellish, Furfur could be there." (NM, p 123-124) If that's right in a Celestial tongue (assuming my impression that the Celestial language uses words which fits their meaning is correct) the meaning of a Word may change throughout time as people associate different things with it (maybe the [angelic] Word Fire meant only the physical object a fire rather than the hods of meanings it has now). Ramesh - ------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:41:46 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> 'Nother Unofficial IN-page... > In the grand tradition of 'IN NOMINE: Holy war' (okay, maybe not), I > present my own take on IN NOMINE. Wow. I didn't know Holy War was a grand tradition. I'll be sure to tell Daimon, he'll be proud. :) - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:49:37 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: R: IN> Baphomet und Templars + INRI > I don't know if this has been covered yet, but dies anybody know about the > Merovingian dynasty, Rennes-le-Chateau, and how this could relate to IN? Yes, in a very Holy Blood/Holy Grail sort of way. Details are going to have to wait until I dig out from under my email. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 13:13:53 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words Eeyore wrote: > >Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > >> There is a great chain of creation, ordered from least to greatest, and >> the lesser ought and should obey the greater, because they see more clearly >> what is needful for the lesser's well-being. E.g., a man will give his >> dog baths and heartworm pills, even though the dog doesn't like either, >> because he knows better than the dog, or as a mother will force her child >> to do his schoolwork, because she knows how the child should spend his >> time better than he does, or as a guardian angel instructing a human on >> how to live. > >There is a major flaw in the God>Man equals Man>Dog analogy. Dog's are >intellectually inferior to humans, but that is something that no human caused >or can change. God, on the other hand, is claimed to be omniscient and >omnipotent. He not only created humans as they are, he created us with the >inability to "see more clearly what is needful for the lesser's well-being." >Unless I misunderstand what the word "omnipotent" means, he could have done it >differently but chose not to. Welcome to wild 'n wacky world of theodicy. :) One of the more traditional Christian explanations for this is that this moral sense was one of the things that was lost in the Fall of Adam. When Adam and Eve broke God's commandment to them in the Garden of Eden, they lost their state of grace. Since the sense of the good is precisely an awareness of God, this is why their ability to automagically know the right thing to do faded. Since all mankind are the children of Adam and Eve, we also lack a perfect moral sense, since the inferior cannot beget something superior to it. Remember that omnipotence in theology is typically defined as "all that is possible," not "all that is possible and impossible." Even God can't prove 2+2=5 according to Peano's axioms. This is why God didn't make sure that the children of Adam and Eve were automatically morally perfect -- it would have required that Adam and Eve produce beings superior to themselves. (See, I warned you that Neoplatonism is everywhere!) But God is a nice deity: He will kindly make up the difference for us, if we acknowledge our imperfection to Him and ask Him for His help. But you have to ask: this is the basis of the demand for faith in Him. You might at this point wonder why God didn't strike Adam and Eve with infertility, if their children were to lack moral perfection. But consider: the only people who say "I wish I were never born" are those in the throes of the worst sort of despair. Existence is a good that God would not deny us. (Ok, they could also have been reading too much existential philosophy -- but that's same thing, really. :) >As he is responsible for my lack of awareness, I feel somewhat less >inclined to trust in him completely. I'm sure that's how Lilith feels >about it. In real life, I tend to agree with her. Like I said: Lilith lucks out that our age's moral weaknesses make her variety of sin attractive. Lacking trust in God *is* a sin, in the purest sense of the term: it takes the person further away from the awareness of God. [In real life, I'm an atheist, a materialist, and an anarchocapitalist, so I'm pretty much on the bullet train to Hell in the IN-verse. But at least I don't gratuitously kick cats. :) ] - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 13:11:03 -0500 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> New Member Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > At 5:54 PM -0800 1/5/99, Steel Angel wrote: > >Nothing I've seen says they -can't-, like it does with Celestial > >Vessels. > > The specific wording in their description says "humans." > > I'm sure this is in the FAQ -- right, Karakash? It says it SPECIFICALLY in the FAQ. Can a Shedite possess a celestial or an animal? Shedim can only possess humans (In Nomine, p. 151). > > More on that note: What happens when a Shedite with Song of Poessession > >tries to possess a Celestial's vessel? Does the original host human > >vessel fall unconscious and wait for the Shedite to return, or does it > >snap out of its possession and this Song is the only way a Shedite -can- > >possess a Celestial's vessel? > > The latter. But the celestial's mind is AWOL in the Marches, as in > a typical Song-of-Possession. The Shedite does not get the ability to > tap the celestial's memories, nor will any of its actions have the least > chance of causing the owner of the possessed vessel any dissonance. Exact-o-mundo. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 13:22:15 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words Earl Wajenberg wrote: > >Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > >> Angels and democracy. Angels don't believe in liberty in the >> familiar sense, and don't believe in equality either. So how >> come they do things like support fledgling democracies? > >Perhaps, also, they realize that it passes human ability to >determine who the superior people ARE. Humans wind up using >such hopelessly wrong-headed markers as race, gender, nationality, >social class, physical strength or beauty, or wealth, as >indicators of spiritual superiority. So a legal fiction of >equality is preferable. Yeah -- it's a least bad alternative. I bet Jean is thinking "I wish those social choice theorists would get off there lazy fat duffs and hurry up and invent applied Pareto engineering. The social forms they could then invent could win mankind as much as a 27.3% increase in median social welfare!" >(N.B.: While Abrahamic tradition doesn't make a big deal of >equality, it isn't all that attached to rank, either. When the >Israelites demanded that the prophet Samuel appoint a king over >them, he said, in effect, "All right, but you're REALLY not going >to like the result. But you ASKED for it...") I was thinking more along the lines of the God-man relation than the man-man relation, with angels somewhere in between humans and God. This matters more in In Nomine than IRL, because IN has angels on every streetcorner. :) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:27:41 -0500 From: dahak Subject: IN> RE: in_nomine-digest V1 #1087 My Apologies Redneck. My apologises to Casca as well. Adam Book of Wisdom Wis 1:7 For the Spirit of the Lord filleth the world: and that which containeth all things hath knowledge of the voice. Wis 1:8 Therefore he that speaketh unrighteous things cannot be hid: neither shall vengeance, when it punisheth, pass by him. Wis 1:9 For inquisition shall be made into the counsels of the ungodly: and the sound of his words shall come unto the Lord for the manifestation of his wicked deeds. - -----Original Message----- Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 13:25:34 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Is the flavor text canon? On Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 07:54:36AM -0500, dahak wrote: > Like: Demon princes turning humans into demons. Elizabeth, Archangel of > Trent, has ruled. This never happens. Or Vignettes. Or Casca's Dark > Victory. > Dark Victory is, in fact, the work of Redneck, who admittedly has been lurking/absent for some time now. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - - -- "In our revolutionary court we are guided not by articles of the law and not by the degree of extenuating circumstances; in the tribunal we must proceed on the basis of considerations of expediency." the Gulag Archipelago, by Alexander Solzhenitsyn. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:27:45 -0500 From: dahak Subject: IN> RE: in_nomine-digest V1 #1087 My memory of Millsean Liberalism is that the doctrine do anything that does not harm another includes not destroying the state that guarantees those rights because that will harm people not yet born. Thus what ever is necessary to protect the government that provides the above rights is good. One of the reasons Americans do not like liberals. Liberal thought does not require democracy as a moral good. Nor does it require any unalieanble rights. What it does have is unalieanable responsibilities. It can be read as do not suffer the existence of any government that does not agree because that is an action that harms its citizens. It has strong threads of allowing a situation to continue is an action. If that lack of action is causing people harm then you must act against the situation. Which is one way of looking at what angels do and some demons think they do. Lilith's darkness comes from the fact her guiding principle is: Do what you will. That is the whole of the law. This means: There is no such thing as society. There is no responsibility. The free are free to starve, or die or be exploited. Lilith's darkness is that she holds that there are no moral constraints to action. Some angels probably think democracy is not the best way to organise things. Heaven is not a democracy. The seraphim council are not elected representatives. A platonic Republic is a closer match. Adam [Liberal candidate for Abbey ward, Reading] - -----Original Message----- Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 09:12:09 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words Elizabeth Bartley wrote: > >Except for Lilith, the Demon Princes promote, and appear to be powered by, >solely the darker side of their Words. I don't think even Lilith is immune from this: she just has better PR is all. It's just that us moderns tend to be depraved in the ways that make Lilith's brand of evil a bit more attractive than, say, Baal's. (Whose obsession with honor, pride and hierarchy must have hit warrior classes throughout history like the proverbial third rail.) The ideas that "everyone is equal" and "live free or die," which are popular in modern society, are -wrong-. Lilith's promotion of these concepts is an -evil-. Likewise, the notion of the Lockean state of liberty is a flawed one as well. Mills's harm principle -- the notion that anything is ok as long as it doesn't violate another's rights -- is clearly not correct, since the divinely ordained order (which includes, for example, the Celestial Inquisition) doesn't agree with it. An example: Angels and democracy. Angels don't believe in liberty in the familiar sense, and don't believe in equality either. So how come they do things like support fledgling democracies? While the idea that people have an intrinsic right to govern themselves and so should maintain democratic institutions is bunk to an angel, the fact remains that people are mostly bad. If a theocracy or somesuch were instituted, human nature would lead inevitably to corruption and tyranny. A democracy is a "least-bad" alternative, since different groups attempts to tyrannize each other will tend to somewhat cancel out. If someone invented a better way of organizing society, there would be no nostalgia for democracy on the part of the angels. - - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:27:48 -0500 From: dahak Subject: IN> LSE One of the petrol stations involved in cross border fuel sales? A farm straddling the border where the cattle migrate from one country to the other dependant on supply? The building that holds the computerised cattle breading and health registers that got Northern Ireland out from under the BSE scare before the rest of the UK? The farm the first potato was planted? Stormont Castle? [lots of negotiation and deal making there. Pity Malphas probably has it.] A basement where the IRA bought a Nuke from a renegade Russian General? [I hope this doesn't really exist but it gives a party something to look for.] Adam The Purifiers recruit from the various sectarian terror groups. Imagine the Loyalists being told by an angel to work with their old enemies from the IRA. "He's a psychotic killer" "But he's our killer and his targets were working for hell...." - -----Original Message----- Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 15:57:23 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> LSE > The actual motto of the LSE is 'My word is my bond' -- to me, that pretty > much has Marc written all over it. > I'm trying to remember which war the Bank of England was set up in response to, but for the life of me I can't. The Bank of England was a very significant innovation for both commerce and war financing, though. (It was the first Central Bank in history, right?) I wish I could think of a plausible Trade Tether for Ireland, though. The shipyards in Belfast were too sectarian to make good Tethers to Heaven, to my mind. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 13:31:16 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > I was thinking more along the lines of the God-man relation than > the man-man relation, with angels somewhere in between humans and > God. This matters more in In Nomine than IRL, because IN has > angels on every streetcorner. :) In his "Preface to Paradise Lost," C. S. Lewis says that some people have accused Milton of hypocrisy or inconsistency because he was a Parlimentarian in the English Civil War but writes like a royalist in Paradise Lost. Lewis points out that there is no inconsistency in advocating democracy for politics within one's species while advocating hierarchy between species. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:33:23 -0500 (EST) From: "Diane J. Donaldson" Subject: IN> Tattoos Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >An Attunement is something that changes the very being of the person >who gets it. It's like a tattoo. You can't remove it without flaying >away the skin it's on. I just got a tattoo myself: that very pretty burning feather on the IN core book. (Ok, ok, I am *not* obsessed with IN, alright??? It's a very pretty feather, and I've been wanting a tattoo for a while. But I am sure my players are going to be surprised.) As far as I'm concerned, flaying it off is NOT an option... djd ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 99 9:48:24 PST From: nick jost Subject: Re: IN> Gabriel's servants > >A great example is war. Both sides use the word war. On Micheal's > >side this promotes a purifying conflict that has a resulotion. Baal's > >word promotes harmful conflict that is self fueling. > > > >I think that the 'drug' word works the same way. That is the > >infernal word of 'drug' denotes substances that are abused in such > >a way that they cause harm. Particularly addictive substances. > > > > In the write-up of Fleurity it states that ' "Drug" means more than heroin > or cocaine - it also means Prozac and Valium'. I don't disagree that > Fleurity probably concentrates on the Darker aspects of Drugs, I'm just > saying that Pharmaceuticals are within his domain. > > Ramesh Let's see....I said, "That is the infernal word of 'drug' denotes substances that are abused in such a way that they cause harm." Hmmmm........could this include Prozac? Ya, think? Could Prozac be misused?!?!? Perish the thought. - ------ Kakita Nikku ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 13:40:21 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Tattoos Diane J. Donaldson wrote: > As far as I'm concerned, flaying it off is NOT an option... There's a recently developed laser removal method, should you wish to reconsider... Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 14:09:42 -0500 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Is the flavor text canon? Samovar3@aol.com wrote: > > Since an angry Djinn Princess has repeatedly mentioned it, I know that the > vignettes in the book are non-canon. What about the (for lack of a better > name) flavor text that accompanies some of the sections? To illustrate what > I'm talking about, in the APG (or IPG) under the section dealing with mixed > groups of renegade angels and demons, Las Vegas is mentioned as being Mammon's > town. Is this "official" or is it just fluff? What about the comments by > Superiors in the expanded write-ups? According to Gabriel, Lilith is not > cruel which could shake the faith of an angelic Fire servitor which finds a > Demon Princess who is not cruel. Rule-stuff in fiction is usually not canon (unless we can bend it in). Setting stuff _usually_ is, and is subject to errata-ing if necessary. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 19:50:01 +0000 From: Paul Subject: Re: IN> Yassa Massa David spoke, but I dont see it that way: My problem is that i see the angelic host as too selfless to enslave a mortal this way, and I kind of like the free will idea... >Brian: >Servants have two basic stats, Level and Resource. The level part I >understand. The resource bit I'm a little fuzzy on. >I know the mechanics. The Resource level acts as a negative modifier on the >servants Will when said servant is told to do something he'd rather not do. >Simple. It shows the level of control over the servant. >From: David Edelstein >>But what exactly does that mean? Where does this control originate >>from? > >It's a supernatural, Symphonic connection, a master-servant relationship. >The servant's will is suboordinated to that of his master. Don't have a problem with this for the infernal forces, but humans given free will by god? Why should an angel subordinate them, an action performed contrary to gods intent? If Lawrence is now organising Heavens soldiers and Yves-Dominic take an interest in gods plan & laws couldn't they take severe issue with this? Oooh.. nobody expects the inquisition! >>This implies that a Resource-6 servant is either a fanatic or is >>controlled in some other way. Money? Fear/intimidation? The promise of a >>Heavenly reward (or at least a condo in a nicer suburb of Hell)? Or is it a >>more direct control similar to the Will-War described in The Marches? > >The latter. A servant's level is not necessarily an indicator of loyalty -- >a low-level servant might be very loyal, but easily able to resist orders >if he chooses to, while a high-level servant might hate his master, but not >have the ability to resist him. > Fine for demons again, but if a shedite corrupts and depraves humans, and this is not their exlcusive right, so that hideously nasty acts are commonplace, can't the will-war be more of a gentle programming - conditioning thing. Similarly for the angels through a process of 'enlightenment'. I see the time and roleplaying to get a servitor, as the time to get a bright & pure soul utterly depraved, or a depraved soul further into the darkest pits... so that it is ready to accept it's work. That is a demonic example :-> IMHO of course. tyriel and god said go forth into the world and kill everyone for at the time he was angry [words from the bible: they're all in there somewhere!] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 12:19:10 PST From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> re: Trade tethers in London Jo writes some interesting points on London (as ever you have my complete attention ~s~) which I'm grateful for. "I also don't quite see what you mean about 'it doesn't have trading unless it is done on computers' -- of course it is done on computers these days, but the LSE is where the accounts are settled." Well, part of the reason for me not choosing the LSE is because the info I had at hand wasn't anywhere near as thorough as that on the BOE. For what its worth I agree that the LSE is suitable but like I said, the books don't really do it justice. That everything is done in computers to me meant the place is not the same as it was - and therefore too weak compared to the BOE. I don't know how it works these days, do people still settle on a handshake as before. Maybe I'll change things, but id like more info - which is the problem (can you recommend any books/sites?) "Anyway, all I was going to say is that you can see how two people who know the same city really well (I'm a Londoner and I've spent most of my life there) can still come to different conclusions about it." Well I live outside of London, so most of my info comes from books. Any help you can give (and have given) is most welcome! :-) BTW, why do you feel the Temple is unsuitable for Dominic? (I had a hard time getting to grips with that place; maybe I need too much research!) "I'm trying to remember which war the Bank of England was set up in response to, but for the life of me I can't. The Bank of England was a very significant innovation for both commerce and war financing, though." That plus it's a more well known place, in only in tourists terms. I know this isn't necessarily relevant to the formation of a tether but it's a pretty strong plus point because it fixes it in the minds of men. To answer your first question… "Sixteen years later, when James II declared war on France, the government found itself unable to raise the funds necessary for its army. Thus it was that in 1694 a Scottish merchant, William Paterson, proposed the creation of a new joint-stock bank that would lend the government the money at an 8% interest rate with no fixed term for repayments. The proposal was an instant success; soon after Royal charter recognised the bank." Martin PS: Um I have a horrible feeling I've posted that Nybbas thing twice, sorry 'bout that! Feel fee to bin it if you've seen it already! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:28:34 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: RE: IN> today's posts > At 10:59 AM -0800 1/5/99, Steven Feldon (Exchange) wrote: > >Elizabeth, correct me if I'm wrong, but you _can't_ open the playtest to > >everyone without giving away certain kinds of rights to the material that a > >restricted, membership only, controlled list of playtesters allows you to > >keep, can you? > > Entirely possible, yes. I'm not the legal expert, though. It might > just be because the net *is* full of people who don't understand > that intellectual property is what *feeds* some other people. I've repeated this several times, but I'll repeat it again just for the edification of the list and that I like using long words like "edification". Anything published to the web in a public domain manner is considered fully first published, and it makes publishing it as a book very difficult, and in some cases impossible. Once it goes to the masses of the net, there is little or no way to protect it except by acknowledging copyright _if copyright had been originally applied to the material_, and furthermore, there is little justification for demanding money to receive the published material. This is why publishing clips of stuff that didn't make it into the books and then get rolled into the books later a mind-bogglingly bad idea - someone who took it and changed it a bit and published it themselves can sue, and very likely win. Keeping the playtest in a private forum skirts the laws somewhat, but not entirely by any stretch of the imagination. Because no one signs any non-disclosure forms or legal documents which protects the playtest material, there is no way to stop people from passing it around to their friends once they download it. This is exceedingly bad form for SJG from a legal standpoint, but this is not, in fact, my problem. [My experience in other forums is the joy of the fax machine. You download a form, sign it, and fax it back. Then you are allowed to the material.] This is outlined on several copyright law web sites around, go ahead and do some reading. Look, it's $15. My god, it's less then two days worth of lunch and you get access. - - Em Current Quote: "Never look directly at the sun through a Pattern Lens." -- the LintKing ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1088 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.