From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Jan 11 23:43:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA23496 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:43:21 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id XAA22841 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:34:58 -0600 Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:34:58 -0600 Message-Id: <199901120534.XAA22841@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1091 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, January 11 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1091 In this digest: IN> Humans IN> Servitorum IN> Re: IN- Humanity (was Gabriel's attunements or something) IN> The Game IN> Renegades on the run (and the Song of Correspondence) IN> IN product quality and tethers IN> Renegades on the run (and the Song of Correspondence) IN> Servants Re: IN> Renegades on the run (and the Song of Affinity) IN> Renegades on the run (and the Song of Correspondence) Re: IN> Destiny\Fate of Angels\Demons IN> Is the flavor text canon? (Book of James) IN> Breaking God's rules (was: Some questions about 'The Game') Re: IN> Destiny\Fate of Angels\Demons Re: IN> Re: IN- Humanity (was Gabriel's attunements or something) Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words IN> Caim - Duke of Bestiality Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words Re: IN> Vessels, Pt Cost, and Limbo (was: Discord and Rites) IN> Re: IN- Power of Superiors (Re: Gabriel's servants) Re: IN> Humanity (was Gabriel's attunements or something) Re: IN> The Game Re: IN> The Game Re: IN> Liber Servitorum Question (servants) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 15:49:29 -0500 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: IN> Humans Ah, I just found your update on the format. Never mind my second question! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 16:27:20 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: IN> Servitorum I was just thinking. There are Angel character sheets and Demon character sheets. You should put human and soldier character sheets in the Liber Servitorum. This is most likely unnecessary as you've probably already thought of this. Another question: Will there be rules for having Ethereal servants? That could open a mess of problems since you know somebody somewhere has asked for one at least once. :) Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 17:38:20 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Humanity (was Gabriel's attunements or something) >>No, you've got something here. I was just looking through GURPS Black >>Ops the other day, in which you play a character with a point total of >>650pts plus. Normals GURPS hero material is 100pts, that's like a six >>force human, I'd say, in In Nomine. > >The problem with this is that GURPS tries to be "realistic", while In >Nomine's game mechanics weren't designed with that intent at all. Also, >as a long-time GURPS player and playtester, I would claim that any claim >to mathematical sensibility in GURPS point costs has broken down well >before 650 points. In fact, Black Ops attempts to produce cinematic >characters in a realistic system, so any mathematical extrapolations >from it are decidedly suspect. Of I gave up on math a while ago. After all, in GURPS, pt level is the "gauge" of relative power (which is a total of skills as well as attributes as well as social clout, etc...), in In Nomine, it's Forces, Word-bound status, and Distinctions (which cannot measure skills, songs, and only somewhat social clout with Distinctions and Word-bound) which are the 'gauge' of power. Since these two gauges measure two different sets of things to measure power, they can't really be compared. A GURPS human with over 100 spells might still be only a 6 force creature in In Nomine. I may have to devise a Point Based system of 'gauging' my In Nomine characters so that I can translate my GURPS characters into the game. Or something. The two systems are very different. >>Why isn't this kind of power available to humans in In Nomine? > >Because it wasn't designed that way. Also, I'd place typical In Nomine >celestials at about the 400-500 point level in GURPS, so your 650pt >Black Ops character is well *beyond* what a typical 9-Force character >can do (other than straight supernatural abilities). Too true. I believe I'll have Black Ops *start* at 9 Forces as well as having bonus points for skills. I'll also have to "condense" certain skills so that the In Nomine Black Op does not have over 100 different skills. :) >Remember that the *typical* human in GURPS is 25 points, and 100-point >characters are supposed to be definite hero material, with really >powerful, experienced characters normally about 200 points. Those would >probably be a better comparison point. > >However, I'll agree that the typical 100-point GURPS PC is probably >roughly equivalent to a typical Soldier in IN. Yes, defintely. >>??? That's not right to me. Of course, I grew up on GURPS -and- I >>prefer playing humans to angels and demons, if it weren't for the fact >>that they are hardly able to achieve the attributes which are claimed to >>be in human range without sacrificing the two other realms. > >And you're running into a common problem with game systems -- >representing two or more radically-different power levels, in a way >that's playable and reasonable is a *very* hard problem. The >"center-point" of the GURPS system is aimed at above-average humans, >while the center-point of the IN design is typical celestials. Either >system will strain a bit to try to represent the common case in the >other. (Frankly, I think GURPS would do a better job of handling both >than IN does.) Probably, but I don't want to lose a lot of the In Nomine flavor by trying to use the GURPS system. GURPS doesn't have the three realms (Corporeal, Ethereal and Celestial), and In Nomine is "built" around that triad. I feel that translating to GURPS would really take the wind out of In Nomine's world. - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 19:01:30 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> The Game LOL! Oh, that was excellent! - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 19:01:36 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Renegades on the run (and the Song of Correspondence) >>>These are quite good reasons, but i think that on a basic level, even if Asmodeus could grab back renegades in this manner, he wouldn't. If the renegade involved didn't have a chance, no matter how small, it wouldn't be a game.<<< This is another good point -- more importantly, Asmodeus maintains control by having a reputation for running a tight, horribly efficient organization. How does it look if the boss has to personally expend massive amounts of Essence to retrieve a Renegade because his supposedly efficient and fearsome servants can't do it themselves? - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 19:01:24 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> IN product quality and tethers >>>These were personal observations made whilst writing my own campaign and whilst working with the information at hand regarding the setting.<<< No -- these were retorts to Walter, who pointed out to you (after your complaining that canon might contradict your campaign) that it was exceedingly unlikely that any writers would come up with the same Tethers that you did in any given city. To which you replied (paraphrased) "There aren't as many options as you might think." >>>I would have thought by now you would know my feelings regarding the canonical approach.<<< Then make up your own canon, but it seems kind of silly to complain because what's in the books is canon. >>>That first point is something I would like to discuss; why doesn't it fade away. Surely if the location of Oscar Wilde's arrest (to use an earlier example), the Cadogan Hotel, is long forgotten to the mortal masses, how can it maintain its power?<<< Well, Pyramid playtesters will be able to read and discuss that -- you'll just have to wait for the book to come out, I guess. Or hope that someone else wants to discuss this with you. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 19:01:44 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Renegades on the run (and the Song of Correspondence) >>>Actually I think the Song of Affinity (from the LR) was the one which made going renegade almost impossible (at least from a well-organised, anal type of prince). It's so easy to demand that all servitors sign a release form every time they go to earth and write a report every time they get back. to Hell Those reports could be used for faultless tracking via songs of affinity, methinks.<<< Possibly. It adds a new level of intrigue for a Servitor of the Game who wants to go Renegade -- you have to destroy your files too! Or else run even faster since you *know* someone will always be on your trail. Of course, the Celestial Song of Revulsion (from the Liber Canticorum) can also sever the attunement. That Song could wind up being _very_ popular among wannabe Renegades. >>>I think it's been said somewhere that superiors can manifest on more than one plane at once?<<< Yes, but no doubt that costs additional Essence too. >>>Note that any superior who wanted to get anyone (of less than superior power) could use the same trick to do that. So just how badly did your PCs annoy Kobal last time out?<<< This isn't a new issue -- what keeps Demon Princes and Archangels from personally showing up to splat PCs who annoy them, especially if their Servitors Invoke them? You have to assume that (a) it's not usually worth their time and Essence (my mantra for handling Superior interventions is "That's what Servitors are for..."), and (b) it would escalate things more than most Superiors would like. If Kobal goes out of his way to personally splatter some angels of Jean, then Jean will go out of his way to personally vaporize some demons of Dark Humor. >>>He only has to do it once and make sure the news gets around to get most of the demons who were considering going renegade to start rethinking.<<< We can probably assume Asmodeus regularly does all kinds of horrific things to Renegades, to make examples of them, and spreads all kinds of rumors about how easily he can track Renegades ("I'm the Djinn Demon Prince of the Game...do you really think I'm not personally attuned to ALL my Servitors? Do you think I can't _smell_ disloyalty, even in other Principalities?") This wouldn't be any more discouraging than all his other dissuasion efforts. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 19:03:34 -0500 From: dahak Subject: IN> Servants On will war dominance the end result is as you say similar. A loss of Free Will. I tell the angel yes, I'll work for you and then on my ability to change my mind is curtailed, not simply by my sense of honour and how well we get on but by a mystical effect. Loose a will war and your will is broken but you may still pervert the intent of your instructions until it wears off. They feel much the same. They do not have to be identical to make the dominance effect less unique. On the explanation of the meaning of the resource level. If the resource level is just a mechanic to cover how easy it is to get your servants to do things, it doesn't need to have a game world justification. We have other numerical evaluations of intangible or difficult to measure concepts and we use them to enable us to play [charisma bonuses for example]. If on the other hand it is as you say something which has some basis in the underlying fabric of the game universe, separate from an approximation to the utility of the master and servant relationship, then it needs to have some good reason by way of interacting with the rest of the rules and background to be a valuable addition. If there is such an interaction then I will quite happily leave off this discussion here. If not I would just ask you to spend a few minutes reconsidering the interaction between the titbit you have given us and such things as the canon uncertainty about free will and the angelic view of humans place in the universe. Either way, unless I have been totally incoherent. I think that probably wraps up what I have to say about this until after I have a copy of the Liber Servitorum. Adam Anyone who wishes to share any insights on making MS [or is that VS] Outlook work with the digest version of this list please email me about them. - -----Original Message----- Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 18:44:31 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Servants >>>The third problem is it makes the will war dominance somewhat less of a special and terrifying fate.<<< You misunderstand -- a servant relationship is not the result of a will-war. I said it was _similar_, I didn't say they are the same thing. >>>What was wrong with the idea that the level of the servant was the level of its need [but probably not Need] for what ever reason to do the celestials biding?<<< That's another way to put it, sure. - - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 19:03:46 -0500 From: dahak Subject: Re: IN> Renegades on the run (and the Song of Affinity) Especially if he makes you sign in blood. Or keeps a sample when making your vessel. Odd, how demons are supposed to be keen on signatures in blood. Limbo is still of course a good hiding place. Adam Gnostic legends present a malevolent child Jesus, who struck dead a child who pushed him over and made the people who accused him of the deed blind. He also used his powers to walk on sun beams and water and laughed at the misfortunes of his playmates who tried to copy him. - -----Original Message----- Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 12:50:04 -0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Renegades on the run (and the Song of Correspondence) Actually I think the Song of Affinity (from the LR) was the one which made going renegade almost impossible. It's so easy to demand that all servitors sign a release form every time they go to earth and write a report every time they get back. To Hell Those reports could be used for faultless tracking via songs of affinity, methinks. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 19:03:41 -0500 From: dahak Subject: IN> Renegades on the run (and the Song of Correspondence) 1) The write up in Libra Canticorum makes no mention of the requirement to be on the same plane as the target. Nor does the Song of motion in that volume [destination must be in sight or a place on earth the singer has been to.]. 2) Without using the songs of Affinity or Symphony, etc. This is agreed. 3), 5)True 4) Correspondance needs to be sung for a destination for Celestial Motion to make the distance for jumps to that location be 0 [Libra Canticorum p66] i.e. Does not need to target the renegade. Wherever he is he is in range of that location for Celestial Motion. 6) He does it in his office. No one will want to know what he is doing. It might be worse than they imagine. It might be a trap. The fact that he has done this to one individual will serve to encourage the others that his reach is inescapable. Bottom line Agreed. It is no fun being on the run from the Game. The Song of correspondence trick was used to come up with a cheaper essence expenditure than using the servitors dissonance condition and celestial tongues to hammer the minion with discord until he surrendered or self destructed. This trick is not going to happen unless the superior a) Knows the renegade is gone. b) is personally willing to exert himself to get him back. But consider It takes 3 cp to persuade a superior to expend 75 essence on your behalf.[ The cost of 1 level for a human vessel] There are multiple forces in the renegade to recycle into a new minion. [90 cp's worth in the average PC.] So ex-superiors wants renegades back to dismember. If he can thinks he can get a renegade back by offering rewards to his minions [either implicitly as the rewards for doing a good job or explicitly as bounty] then he will do so. So long as he thinks that the cost of rewarding his minions is less trouble than the bother of getting the renegade back himself. If he doesn't know the renegade is gone then he won't be looking. Ambitious minions who have noticed the renegades absence will be looking for him to gain brownie points with the boss though. If he causes them too much trouble then they will report him, but a captured renegade is worth more than a report of a defection. Staciel is likely to filter less powerful renegades out of the reports Asmodeus receives if she thinks there are minions she can send to catch you. Asmodeus does prefer her to leave him to the big jobs like torturing Fallen Bright Lilim, plotting and intimidating the other demon princes. Other reasons a demon prince might leave renegades to his minions i) It is more fun to play cat and mouse games with them. [This serves Asmodeus's Word] ii) Watching them may spot other renegades or outcasts. iii) They might come back of their own accord. With a big bribe of some sort. iv) He doesn't want other demon princes to realise how the renegade was more valuable than outwardly apparent . v) He can't currently spare the time to recycle the minion into a new one. vi) The renegade has faked his own total destruction and hidden out in limbo. vii) Haagenti believes he has already consumed the renegade. viii) It serves some twisted and devious plot. [ Except for Haagenti, where it serves some blindingly obvious plot that the other demon princes will discount as not being obscure enough. ] Adam - -----Original Message----- Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 21:52:26 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Renegades on the run (and the Song of Correspondence) (This is partly to forestall future arguments that the Song of Correspondence makes going Renegade impossible...) (We can assume that Asmodeus knows the Songs of Correspondence and the Celestial Song of Motion at level 6.) (1) Asmodeus has to be on the same plane as his target. The Celestial Song of Motion can't transport things between realms. (2) Asmodeus has to use the correct version of the Song of Correspondence (3) Every time he tries it, he has to spend Essence ... (4) Then target has to be within range of the Celestial Song of Motion -- CD x 10 miles. (Someone mentioned using the Song of Correspondence to also reduce the range to 0. Doing that would require _two_ performances of the Song of Correspondence -- one to target the Renegade and one to make the range between them 0 -- and would require Asmodeus to know the location of the Renegade. And of course if he knows the location of the Renegade, all this is moot!) (5) The Renegade then still gets to resist. (6) A lot of disturbance. Asmodeus certainly isn't going to want everyone knowing that a Renegade has vexed and eluded him so thoroughly that it's become worth his time to _personally_ hunt him down. Bottom line: yes, if Asmodeus is willing to spend a LOT of Essence to get you and doesn't care who knows it, you're got. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 19:03:36 -0500 From: dahak Subject: Re: IN> Destiny\Fate of Angels\Demons The next paragraph describes what happens to those who meet both. They get recycled to try again. Thus it can be done. Adam - -----Original Message----- Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 01:44:25 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Destiny\Fate of Angels\Demons >IMO, it's quite possible for a human to meet both Destiny and Fate. For errrr.... I thought that "opinion" was canon: Predestination: Fate and Destiny (p67, IN) "Many people, of course, die without fallin to fate or touching destiny. And some seem* to reach their fate and destiny. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 19:03:44 -0500 From: dahak Subject: IN> Is the flavor text canon? (Book of James) The book you are thinking of is the Letter from James. Which is about how Christians must put their faith into practice. The book of James, otherwise known as the Protoevangelium, describes the story of the parentage, birth, and childhood of the Virgin Mary. It adds to the details on the birth of Christ and has the story of John the Baptist's escape during the slaughter of the innocents. It appears to have been written in the 2nd century AD and was translated into Latin in 1552 It was also a source for some of the stories in the *Archbishop Jacobus's Legenda Aurea which compiles various legends about the saints and stories about the chief events of the Christian year. It and the Gospel of Thomas the Israelite [c.125] were conflated in the 8th or 9th century to produce the Gospel of the Pseudo- Matthew. Which is notable for being adding the presence of an ox and an ass to much of Jesus's childhood, to meet the prophecy in Isiah 1:3 Look, Not one but four esoteric volumes to rush out and have your player characters try to find. [or hide] Most of the information in this message is provided by J.C.J Metford's Dictionary of Christian Lore and Legend. ISBN 0-500-11020-4 * Jacobus de Voragine, born 1230 died1298, Archbishop of Genoa, otherwise known as Jacopo de' Varazze I have the sneaking suspicion that there is an Apocalypse of St James as well, most of the apostles seem to have had ghost written Apocalypses. Adam Letter of James 2:24 Ye see, then, that out of works is man declared righteous, and not out of faith only; - -----Original Message----- Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 05:19:15 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Is the flavor text canon? Funny. I checked my bible, and the Book of James is in there. Towards the back. - - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 00:43:01 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Breaking God's rules (was: Some questions about 'The Game') >>It's the Band attunement. The extra character points for Roles aren't >>really an attunement, they're the product of Asmodeus' control over mortal >>institutions, and his obsessive secrecy. > >Depends on the campaign. In my game, the character points Asmodeus >gives for Roles are most certainly a supernatural attunement. > >IMC, most celestials need to carefully live out a life and fake >paperwork to create a Role, but demons of the Game can use their >attunement to simply will a Role into existence. Woah. That's cool. >This is because Asmodeus stands in direct opposition to divine law. >Whereas God's law is absolute and eternal, beyond the ability of >those under it to affect it, the Game is created by its players, and >is played according to rules that are chock full of loopholes, >exceptions, and inconsistencies. The Game is a consensual >hallucination, existing because everyone knows that it must exist. > >So when a demon of the Game wills a Role into existence, it is >trying to assert its independence from and immunity to God's >ordering of reality. It's place in society is what it is whatever >it says because everyone agrees. Think how in stories the evil >advisor to the king shows up and no one thinks to question where >he comes from or the motives behind his advice -- that's what a >Game demon's Role is like. Nowadays, the Game demon is more likely >to be a grey, colorless bureaucrat than an evil vizier, but the >principle remains the same. Neel, that's awesome. I love it. - -Perry, KFC Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:28:16 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Destiny\Fate of Angels\Demons On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > Anders Gabrielsson wrote on 09 January 1999 > >IMO, it's quite possible for a human to meet both Destiny and Fate. For > >example, if the (now snipped) person's Destiny was to write a great novel > >about the human condition, he could still do that while withering away in > >jail. > > errrr.... I thought that "opinion" was canon: > > Predestination: Fate and Destiny (p67, IN) Even better. :) The impression I got from the message I replied to was that a human, as opposed to a Celestial, could only reach one, not both. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:34:36 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Humanity (was Gabriel's attunements or something) On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, Perry Lloyd wrote: > I may have to devise a Point Based system of 'gauging' my In Nomine > characters so that I can translate my GURPS characters into the game. > Or something. The two systems are very different. By assigning a point value to Forces (10 or twelve would be reasonable I guess, considering the experience point costs - more if you think that's too cheap) you can get pretty far. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:33:29 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > I was under the impression that Jean portioned out scientific > advances at a measured pace - basically giving us what we're ready > for. I guess that, in his and Yves' opinion, we're not ready for a > better society. Or, contrary to the assumption in Neel's message, a better society cannot be achieved by technique. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 15:26:17 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: IN> Caim - Duke of Bestiality This was something I meant to post awhile ago but didn't get around to it. The question about whether or not Shedim can possess animals reminded me. That, and I recently saw an episode of 'When Good Pets Go Bad'. :) Caim - Duke of Bestiality _'The world is an untamed beast, run with it.'_ In the form of a thrush, Caim was watching the proceedings below. The Grigori called Azazel was surrounded by womenfolk as he used one of their number as an example. With great delicacy and tenderness he first painted the woman's eyes, and then her lips. Then he brushed her hair. When he had finished, the other women - as one - beseeched him that they be next. Caim was fascinated. He could sense that the women desired this beautiful angel who was amongst them. Given the chance, they would surely rut with him. A day ago, he himself had been so engaged whilst in the form of a stag. Hunters had entered the forest in search for food and had interrupted his activities. He had fled their weapons yet his doe had not been so fortunate. Angered, he returned to the humans and attacked them, killing one, yet just managing to evacuate his host before he himself was killed. That had been a most painful experience. It had also been Caim's first contact with humanity and it had sufficiently intrigued him so as to bring him amongst them this day. When Azazel had finished his ministering for the time being, Caim flew down and spoke with him. "What does it feel like oh brother, to have the adoration of the Daughters of God?" "It is my task to educate them, brother, nothing more. They are merely expressing gratitude for my teaching." "You are mistaken, Azazel, if that is what you truly believe. They desire you in the same way that they do their menfolk. Indeed _more_ so. I have watched you, also. Can you truthfully say that you have no desire to so commune with them yourself?" Azazel seemingly uncomfortable with Caim's conversation, excused himself. Caim retired to the forest. In time, man again intruded, and this time Caim took possession of one of his number. Returning to the camp, Caim saw that Azazel was still here. Instead of beautifying the womenfolk though, he was showing the men how to make the weapons with which they brought death into the forest. Caim avoided him. Though he did not think that Azazel suspected him, he did not wish to risk a confrontation and spoil his plans. That night, Caim took the woman who belonged to his host. He found it exhilarating - even more so than in his experiences with the animals. So engaged, Caim made the mistake of Singing sweetly to the woman - so engrossed with her was he. In time, Azazel burst into the hut. "Who are you, to endulge yourself in this way with the Daughters of God!?", he angrily demanded. "We have met already, brother. And I have done nothing wrong. I am fulfilling only that which is natural. My urges..." But Azazel rushed forward and assaulted Caim, knocking him to the floor. Caim raised a hand to his bloodied lip. And smiled. "Jealous, oh brother, that I should have seized the initiative? Have I taken something from you?" Azazel stepped forward, but the woman took hold of him, seemingly imploring him to be merciful to her 'partner'. Azazel looked down into her eyes, and faltered. Caim merely smiled to himself and left the abode. Outside, he left the body of the man in search of a lesser creature within which to leave. As he did so the Symphony sang a different tune at his departure. *********************************************************************** Caim's downfall (he was once a Kyriotate of Jordi) came as a result of his intoxication with earthly sensations. Fulfilling the basic drives of the animal hosts that he took made him giddy with excitement, yet this self-absorption was to eventually cost him dearly. It was he who was partially responsible for the Fall of many of the Grigori, being instigator of their desire to know the pleasures of the flesh. When he Fell he was quickly approached by Lucifer and promised great rewards for his service, should he but swear an oath of loyalty to Andrealphus. When he did so, he was instantly made a Duke in Hell with the Word of Bestiality. His Word these days is generally thought to represent abnormal sexual practices, but it is far more than that. Anytime somebody acts savagely, or brutally, dismissing all sense of morals or common sense, they also further Caim's Word. The Demon of Crimes of Passion, for example, is one of many demons who is in his service. Rites * Cause someone to throw caution to the wind and follow their 'animal instincts'. Usable twice/day. Special Attunement The Shedim of Caim may inhabit animal hosts without the need to corrupt them _per se_. Yet such animals must (will) show profoundly more savage behaviour. Ordinary domesticated pets will noticeably become feral, for example. - -- Julian jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:52:42 -0800 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words Our agents report Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Or, contrary to the assumption in Neel's message, a better >society cannot be achieved by technique. > >Earl This is always an interesting question. I'm not going to argue it, but it might well be the reason. Instead, consider that, for better or worse, Jean gives out the technology in this way. Humans figure some of it out for themselves, even without Infernal inspiration, though Jean doesn't always like it.. From what we know of Jean, there's no chance he'd do it any other way. Who gave all the knowledge to Jean? Yves. Yves, probably the most capable of knowing what will happen in the future. He knows the best and brightest possibilities and with that, he chose Jean to micromanage the technology out at a snail's pace. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:55:14 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Vessels, Pt Cost, and Limbo (was: Discord and Rites) > >Note: since a human vessel costs 75 essence per level or 3 character points >per level. To a superior 1 character point equals about 25 essence. Thus 1 >force or servitor distinction costs 250 essence. Possible corollary: >Superiors can store and deploy at least 250 essence at a time. Since animal >vessels cost less essence it is surprising most superiors don't make more >use of them. > >The average starting character is made up of at least 131 character points. Wait, wait, wait... but in Vessel creation Discord (normally granting a bonus of 3pts/level at Character Creation) only grants a fraction of it's former 3pt bonus. In character creation, one level of Discord can balance out another Vessel level, however in Limbo, a level of even Celsetial Discord is only equal to 1/15 of the vessel expense for a human vessel per level. So, a human vessel does NOT really cost three character points per level any more than a Rat should cost three points per level. Unless I'm mistaken, of course. Anyway, why should the number of forces normally in a vessel affect vessel level cost, anyway? It didn't at character creation, and hits are figured as per normal (eg a Rat/3 vessel should have just as many hits as a Human/3 vessel, and certainly more than a Human/1 vessel, though the total essence cost would be the same). ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:02:03 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Power of Superiors (Re: Gabriel's servants) >>> I thought most of the extra Superiors in the supplements were "minor" >>> Superiors, - which I think means that their Word doesn't have such a >>> presence in the Symphony when compared to the BIG 26 (27?). >>> >>> Ramesh >>... I'm sorry, but I doubt any Ethereal God was ever as powerful as >>Zadkiel. > >Feel free to doubt it, but the Ethereal gods will tell you that they >were. And that once, Yaweh was only as powerful as they... Add IMC... You *don't* want to wander too far from the Vale, at least without a guide. Far Marches, sure. *Outer* Marches, bad, bad idea... - -Perry, KFC Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:08:00 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Humanity (was Gabriel's attunements or something) >On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, Perry Lloyd wrote: > >> I may have to devise a Point Based system of 'gauging' my In Nomine >> characters so that I can translate my GURPS characters into the game. >> Or something. The two systems are very different. > >By assigning a point value to Forces (10 or twelve would be reasonable I >guess, considering the experience point costs - more if you think that's >too cheap) you can get pretty far. > >Anders Gabrielsson Oooh. Yeah. Characteristics are, what three pts a piece? That would mean that a beginning Angel would be 108 + 36 = 144pts total. Of course, IMC, characteristics are worth 4pts a piece, so that would be 144 + 36 = 180pts total. Hmmm... Hmmmm... - -Perry, KFC Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:17:31 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> The Game Very cool. :) >The man beat against the bulging metal door in vain. The falling roof had >buckled it and, even if he could get past, the corridor beyond was blocked. ETc . . . - -Perry, Kyriotate of Flowers serving Creation and sometimes Tanniael, Archangel of Tea Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:12:01 +0100 From: cd skogsberg Subject: Re: IN> The Game On Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 08:23:06PM +0000, Peter Witney wrote: > -Just because you serve one superior, doesn't mean you can't make use of > another's word and work. Verrrrrrry nice! /cd - -- "When I die, I want my tombstone to be engraved 'What would Jesus do?'" -- Jacob H-A (jshasofthome.net) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:32:30 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Liber Servitorum Question (servants) At 5:53 PM -0500 1/9/99, Perry Lloyd wrote: >I know it's a bit under the wire, but how do want us to submit >characters and their servants? Do servants count as seperate >characters? Yes. >I have a character who write-up as well as her servants is under the 625 >word total. Is that okay? Basically, not quite. Servants need to be characters in their own right if they're expanded at all. >What should I do? I didn't see this problem covered in the rules >presented on-line, at least to the list. :) Sorry that I was away at Arisia this weekend... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1091 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.