From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jan 12 15:18:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA01708 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:18:21 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id PAA01768 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:06:51 -0600 Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:06:51 -0600 Message-Id: <199901122106.PAA01768@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1092 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, January 12 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1092 In this digest: Re: IN> Tattoos Re: IN> Some questions about 'The Game' Re: IN> In Nomine Black Ops? (was Humanity) Re: IN> Another rules question Re: IN> Servitorum IN> Renegades on the run (and the Song of Correspondence) IN> The PearlyGate Conspiracy (was Re: IN> Power of Superiors) IN> Character point values IN> Angels of the Lens Re: IN> Vessels, Pt Cost, and Limbo (was: Discord and Rites) Re: IN> Character point values Re: IN> Symphonic Language Re: Is Lilith cruel (was Re: IN> Is the flavor text canon?) Re: IN> Angels of the Lens IN> Saints article IN> Re:IN product quality and tethers Re: IN> Error Re: IN> The PearlyGate Conspiracy (was Re: IN> Power of Superiors) Re: IN> Renegades on the run (and the Song of Correspondence) Re: IN> Gabriel's servants warning slight Final trumpet spoiler Re: IN> Destiny\Fate of Angels\Demons Re: IN> Discord and Rites IN> Re: Gamesters and Dissonance Conditions (Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1084) Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words Re: IN> Vessels, Pt Cost, and Limbo (was: Discord and Rites) Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words Re: IN> Re:IN product quality and tethers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 01:02:54 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Tattoos At 1:33 PM -0500 1/8/99, Diane J. Donaldson wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >>An Attunement is something that changes the very being of the person >>who gets it. It's like a tattoo. You can't remove it without flaying >>away the skin it's on. > >I just got a tattoo myself: that very pretty burning feather on the IN >core book. Mmmmm! Scan a photo? (Me, I occasionally eye the Kyriotate symbol.) >As far as I'm concerned, flaying it off is NOT an option... That's how a lot of celestials feel about their attunements -- though their Princes may have other ideas, if they're displeased... (BTW, Distinctions count like attunements -- they may lose the status, if they go Renegade, but they keep the Nifty Special Abilities their Distinction granted them.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 01:02:57 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Some questions about 'The Game' At 2:51 PM +0000 1/8/99, Leath Sheales wrote: >1) Asmodues servants can identify members of their Band and their >dissonance. Is this part of Asmodeus' Band Attunement, It is the Band attunement for each. >[...] eg. A Balseraph of the Game has the >Balseraph, Djinn and Calabim attunements. Does this allow him to >sense Balseraphs, Djinn and Calabim, Yes. Djinn of the Game like to have the Shedim attunement -- they don't get the shedim-dissonance-related abilities, but they do get to spot other Shedim . . . >2) Dissonance Binding: [...] Does this mean that the >victim *must* have dissonance for this to work, Yes. >3)Basic Rites: [...] Or possibly, can they choose to only >regenerate 1 Essence, therefore avoiding the Rite and Asmodeus' >attention? They can choose to only regenerate 1. >4) Do you think Dominic is annoyed by the fact that Asmodues' first >distinction in "Knight of *Judgement*"? :) Undoubtedly. At 4:42 AM +0000 1/8/99, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >On the same kind of line if using the Humanity attunement you can't >regenerate Essence naturally and it costs 1 Essence to use for 24 hours. >What exactly does "naturally" mean does it mean you can't use Rites or does >it mean you don't regenerate Essence at Sunset? Both. But your partner gets 2 Essence at dusk, and can give you one -- if at no other time, then when you let Humanity lapse for a few seconds to accept the Essence. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 01:02:59 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Black Ops? (was Humanity) At 9:34 PM -0500 1/7/99, Perry Lloyd wrote: [5 or less Forces = un-enlightened mundane human] >Perhaps therefore the Black Ops *must* be enlightened? They know about the aliens/critters/etc. in their "native" book -- if translated to IN, then yes, I'd say they were somehow enlightened and non-mundane. >If they have >more than five forces then therefore they MUST Soldiers, if there is >nothing in between Soldier and Mundane. Soldiers don't *have* to serve Heaven or Hell or an ethereal -- it's just what celestials call 6-Force humans. If Black Ops existed in the IN universe, and the celestials knew about it, then they'd probably have some *other* name... >>If you introduce Black Ops, your celestials *should* be afraid. > >Cool. ;) i like it. But it can't work within In Nomine canon, can it? I dunno -- can it? >Then again, why should I worry about canon, anyway? Bingo. >But, within canon, wouldn't the Black Ops require spiritual growth, like >Night Music pg 30, "The . . . (more common) way is for the mortal to >acquire an extra force through rigorous training and spiritual growth." > >Hmmm... would the training within Black Ops be spiritual? Yeah, >maybe... Like for the "Warrior"... Trained by a Master? Or call it a less-common way of acquiring an extra Force -- via *excessive* training and chuck the spiritual growth. O;> >>It's human range, but you have to be an exceptional human -- either >>by trading off in other realms, or by being scary. > >And the Black Ops -are- scary. :) Exactly! >Cool. Maybe I *will* run In Nomine Black Ops. :) Dude.... >Thanks, Beth!! I am *so* happy. Glad to be of help! I'm sure you won't mind it when I ask a little favor later... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 01:02:56 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Another rules question At 4:53 PM +0000 1/8/99, Leath Sheales wrote: >Another question that has often bugged me: > >Elohite of Lightning Attunement states: "The Elohim of Jean are the >only angels with the calm precision to create microchips and circuit >boards from thin air." > >Does this make the attunement Elohim only, or can any Choir of Jean >still possess it, since it's not strictly Resonance-based??? I'm still gnawing on that one, but generally think that it's not resonance-based, so it can be take by others. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 01:04:44 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Servitorum At 4:27 PM -0500 1/10/99, BillionSix@aol.com wrote: > I was just thinking. There are Angel character sheets and Demon character >sheets. You should put human and soldier character sheets in the Liber >Servitorum. This is most likely unnecessary as you've probably already thought >of this. Yup. > Another question: Will there be rules for having Ethereal servants? Servants are servants, on some levels. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 02:21:12 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Renegades on the run (and the Song of Correspondence) >>>1) The write up in Libra Canticorum makes no mention of the requirement to be on the same plane as the target. Nor does the Song of motion in that volume [destination must be in sight or a place on earth the singer has been to.]. <<< No Song reaches across planes, unless the description says it can. >>>4) Correspondance needs to be sung for a destination for Celestial Motion to make the distance for jumps to that location be 0 [Libra Canticorum p66] i.e. Does not need to target the renegade. Wherever he is he is in range of that location for Celestial Motion.<<< But you need to know where that location is that you're targeting, since it's the location you're aiming at and not the Renegade. And as mentioned previously, if you know the Renegade's location, this is all moot. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:08:09 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: IN> The PearlyGate Conspiracy (was Re: IN> Power of Superiors) In message , Perry Lloyd writes >>Feel free to doubt it, but the Ethereal gods will tell you that they >>were. And that once, Yaweh was only as powerful as they... > >Add IMC... You *don't* want to wander too far from the Vale, at least >without a guide. Far Marches, sure. *Outer* Marches, bad, bad idea... > >- -Perry, KFC Perry, you are a bad man. You got me wondering about the nature of God in your campaign and I started to get some (even more than usual) cooky ideas. :) I'm curious. Are you implying that God *is* a grossed up ethereal IYC and the evidence is stashed away out there? Maybe such a guide is an Outcast servitor of Dreams who believes that he has found out the truth about Yahweh? Maybe Blandine *knows* and is covering things up, sending the odd group of Malakim to eliminate those who stray too far? That may have been her real objection to Uriel galumphing around the Marches. He might have _learnt_ something. So she has words with Yves (who is the Master Conspirator - rarely opens his mouth and speaks in riddles when he does) and he pulls some strings with the Seraphim Council to recall Uriel before it's too late. Result? God sticks Uriel in Warehouse 23. :D Hmm. Gabriel's probably in on it too, what with her having a direct Tether to the Marches and all. Explains her instability doesn't it? It also puts another slant on all that cigarette smoking... ;) The Truth is *Out* There? - -- Julian (Conspiracies on the Brain) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 07:52:57 -0500 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Character point values Forces are 10 points each : 90 Points Superior Choir Attunements are 5 points : 5 Points *Rites [from Kobal's choir Attumnents] are 2.5 points: 8 points or so. Character points: 36 points *Choir Attunement and Discord condition [from Balseraph of Fate]: 5 points Conscious essence use, invocation of superiors, host/vessel advantage: Unknown Superiors discord condition: Unknown Ability to use songs per realm [from soldier attunements] 10: 30 points So 174 character points plus or minus. Unfortunately I am well aware that the starred items are dubious to say the least and that many of the attunements especially are of different values. Lilim of Death being a classic example, Calabite of Fate, being another. Fated Future is less valuable than Divine Destiny. [Not that that matters much since few characters will have a choice between them.] And so on. Adam Canning Obviously the Calabite of Technology, Shedite of Fanaticism and Lilim of Fanaticism attunements are either resonance based or totally useless, since they are not even written up to be bought by other minions of the same demon prince. - -----Original Message----- Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:08:00 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Oooh. Yeah. Characteristics are, what three pts a piece? That would mean that a beginning Angel would be 108 + 36 = 144pts total. Of course, IMC, characteristics are worth 4pts a piece, so that would be 144 + 36 = 180pts total. Hmmm... - - -Perry, KFC ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 07:52:54 -0500 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Angels of the Lens Ah so that explains why your heart glows when you touch it. It's a lens. The angels are attempting to create Civilisation. The demons have created Boskone. Soon Jean and Vapula will be playing with starkly indescribable forces. Yves is 4 archangels working in fusion. His minions are manipulating human genetics to breed the new messiah. Who will have red hair and gold flecked grey eyes and be a soldier of god from birth. Adam Canning "How am I to think that the proposed Seraphim Council or even I myself, will be strong enough to conquer a thing that has corrupted utterly every angel to understand it? Who is to watch the watchmen?" Uriel's last moment of doubt, shortly after the fall. - -----Original Message----- Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:32:30 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Sorry that I was away at Arisia this weekend... - - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 07:52:51 -0500 From: Adam Canning Subject: Re: IN> Vessels, Pt Cost, and Limbo (was: Discord and Rites) True but in play you can't bribe your superior to give you a vessel by taking discord. Being able to take discord and get character points at character creation is a game balance concept , otherwise all characters would receive character points for acquiring discords. Also the relative lack of value from discords in limbo is: a) probably a game balance thing[ otherwise 1 level of discord and you have a vessel.] b) explainable as the damage the character does to himself on attempting to put a vessel together without putting in enough essence and having to make up the difference at a loss out of their soul as they discover that the vessel won't hold together otherwise. I have no idea why the normal forces of the vessel in some circumstances affect the cost unless it is to discourage players from hiding in limbo and building a dragon vessel. It would be reasonable if it affected the cost in all cases. [The difficulty of building a fake x force construct.] It would be acceptable if the costs were flat rate. [The difference in value of the vessels is mostly Charisma/Sex Appeal, non human vessels can go where human ones can't and may have hardwired skills, Human vessels can normally interact with humans better.] If dog vessels were cheaper for a superior to make then I would have expected to see more demons on earth with non human vessels, if only as cannon fodder. And Malakim. As it is among published characters I can only think of one character with a cat vessel, and that is as a way of helping her attunements work. Only Jordi seems to like handing out Animal vessels to his servitors, or possibly only Jordi's servitors are happy being given animal vessels. Most servitors would prefer vessels with a better chance of being served at a bar. It is to be hoped that along side his expanded write up [whenever that comes.] there will be an expanded single location write up on animal vessels and hosts. Much like Lillith brought with her an expanded write up on geases. Of course if the information on animals is in Libra Servitorum, since animals and familiars make up a good 22-33% of the possible classes of servant, then we have not that long to wait. Adam "Time is money, but money is not time." - -----Original Message----- Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:55:14 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" > >Note: since a human vessel costs 75 essence per level or 3 character points >per level. To a superior 1 character point equals about 25 essence. Wait, wait, wait... but in Vessel creation Discord (normally granting a bonus of 3pts/level at Character Creation) only grants a fraction of it's former 3pt bonus. Anyway, why should the number of forces normally in a vessel affect vessel level cost, anyway? It didn't at character creation, and hits are figured as per normal (eg a Rat/3 vessel should have just as many hits as a Human/3 vessel, and certainly more than a Human/1 vessel, though the total essence cost would be the same). ______________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:15:48 -0600 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Character point values Adam Canning wrote: > > Obviously the Calabite of Technology, Shedite of Fanaticism and Lilim of > Fanaticism attunements are either resonance based or totally useless, since > they are not even written up to be bought by other minions of the same > demon prince. The reason there is no write up on Calabite of Technology is because Vapula has a hard enough time getting Vapu-tech to work without the entropy fields of Calabim luftgremlin-ing the works. Things [and people] tend to break down around Calabim, so Vapula doesn't use any. [IN, p183.] I haven't read the write-up on Dark Khalid; does he have similar reservations against using Shedim and Lilim, that would explain their resonances not being listed? tom timberlake, Cadre Cherub of Heaven ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:21:10 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Symphonic Language At 6:36 PM -0800 1/7/99, Steel Angel wrote: >I was again, thinking (horrible habit) and I wondered, from some of my >reading, if the Symphony has a 'language'? It does -- however, Lucifer is perfectly willing to give a demon a Word in an Earthly language. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:21:38 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Is Lilith cruel (was Re: IN> Is the flavor text canon?) At 6:06 AM +0000 1/8/99, Jo Hart wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: gantr@NKU.EDU >>On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> > >>> Or it could just be Lilith shielding (to block Gabriel??), Gabriel >>> rambling around a concept that only she understands, or that Lilith >>> is simply, frighteningly, amoral in a way that Fire's burning cannot >>> touch. [...] >But amoral people can be cruel. In fact, if you are amoral then you probably >don't know the difference between cruelty and kindness anyway, so what's to >stop you? > >Or do you think Gabriel's angels only target peopel whjo are knowingly >cruel? Well, they don't target cats . . . - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:17:06 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Angels of the Lens Adam Canning wrote: > Ah so that explains why your heart glows when you touch it. > It's a lens. > > The angels are attempting to create Civilisation. > The demons have created Boskone. I've said more than once that IN Lensman is a natural crossover. You *do* have to decide some issues, like: What is the scope of jurisdiction of the Superiors? I think simplest and most satisfying is to simply scale them up to cosmic scope, so that, for instance, Gabriel is AA of Fire on every planet in at least the Local Group if not in the universe. What about all those alien races? [shrug] Probably they're just various breeds of mortal, roughly equivalent to human, but things like the multi-dimensional Pallanians might be exotic brands of Ethereals. What about the Arisians? Are they a whole race of Soldiers? Or of Saints? Or are they angelic Roles on a planetary scale (as you imply by casting Jean as Mentor)? (Ditto Edorre for the demons.) Personally, I think the most amusing answer is that the Arisians are a planetful of alien Saints (though Mentor could be an exception) and the Edorreans are a planetful of alien Undead and/or corrupt alien Ethereals. Are Lenscritters super-charged Soliders, or Saints, or a mixture? I'd vote mixture. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:41:02 -0500 (EST) From: "Diane J. Donaldson" Subject: IN> Saints article Hello all, There's a pretty good article on "The Making of a Saint" in US News & World Report from 1/11/99. It gives a description of the process, as well as the stories of a few saints-possibly-to-be. An extremely compressed summary of the information contained follows; A person has to be dead for at least 5 years before being nominated for sainthood. After an exhaustive examination of the person's life (and perhaps their remains, if they died long ago), and after a positio (position paper) has been written and judged free of dogmatic error, and after the Vatican's Congregation for the Causes of Saints has decided ther person lived a life of heroic virtue, the candidate gets the title of "Venerable". Then begins the search for two posthumous miracles. When the first is confirmed, they get the title "Blessed", and the second earns canonization and the title "Saint". When examining miracles, there is no such thing as partial credit. An incident where someone has 90% of his vision miraculously restored will be rejected; God only does things all the way. Miracles have to be verified by a panel of five "notoriously exacting" doctors. All this costs a lot of money; some groups sell stationery to support their cause, and at least one priest sold bone chips of the candidate! There's also a short biography of Katharine Drexel, who is the US's most likely candidate for sainthood. Some good plot seeds here, centering around infernal or divine intervention in the process. djd ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:55:40 PST From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> Re:IN product quality and tethers "No -- these were retorts to Walter, who pointed out to you…it was exceedingly unlikely that any writers would come up with the same Tethers that you did in any given city. To which you replied (paraphrased) "There aren't as many options as you might think." " Er, yes; they WERE personal observations??? What else can they be? Why do you assume I'm being aggressive? Why do you assume I'm 'telling' Walter anything (let alone what he should write). FYI what mad e me post that initial comment was my own thoughts on tethers after spending these past few months working on my 'canon' if you like. As canon hasn't given me much to go on I'm left with little choice. But I find it rather 'unnecessary' to have it pointed out to me that my work is 'wrong' - i.e. non-canon. "Then make up your own canon, but it seems kind of silly to complain because what's in the books is canon." I am making up my own canon. I want to make up my own canon, but I would also like to know what canon is in case it has some good ideas I might use. The same with other people's canons - that's partly why I joined the list. What is somewhat frustration is the fact that I put all this effort into doing exactly what a GM should do (write a campaign) and then find that the rules have changed. For instance I can remember an earlier discussion on tethers that centres around how many tethers the average city can handle. IIRC this was something on the order of 1 per million people, or maybe per 100,000 (whatever). This was an important contribution because it gave us GM's something to work with so as to avoid flooding the game with the supernatural. (It's the same principle I guess as the V;tM rule about how many Vampires exist in a city.) Now it seems, if I infer correctly from what you guys are saying, that this is changed. There are dozens of tethers it seems. Well this raises a whole new set of questions. I don't think it is unreasonable to further infer that the entire world - at least the western, urban world, is covered with tethers. That everywhere you go you'll find a tether. "Well, Pyramid playtesters will be able to read and discuss that -- you'll just have to wait for the book to come out, I guess. Or hope that someone else wants to discuss this with you." Well as you don't want to discuss it with me, or say anything helpful perhaps it would be best if you just didn't bother. I can't say I want to piss everybody off again! So, any discussion regarding upcoming books (for example the current debate about servants from the new LS) is only for Pyramid subscribers. I didn't know this, perhaps you should have made this clear. I do hope that someone wants to discuss it with me, yes. I feel I am entitled to. Why? Because I play IN - simple as that. I think those are sound credentials. As Sean said: "Let me try to explain. Hi. I'm nobody. Nothing I say has any official status, nor do I speak with any of the staff for the game on a regular basis. But I play it and that's as good an excuse to talk as any." And Big Up to you for that insightful answer. Cheers! More whining and crying from Martin "Gazza" Arnold. PS does the Liber Castellorum have a release date yet - for the UK? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:59:30 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Error At 8:48 AM -0800 1/9/99, Janet Anderson wrote: >I observe upon checking that Raphael is the (deceased) Angel of >Knowledge, not of Healing. > >(Who IS the Angel of Healing?) According to http://www.incyclopedia.org, there isn't yet anyone with the Word of Healing in canon. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:18:45 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> The PearlyGate Conspiracy (was Re: IN> Power of Superiors) LOL Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:23:05 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Renegades on the run (and the Song of Correspondence) At 9:52 PM -0500 1/9/99, David Edelstein wrote: A very nice essay on the Song of Correspondence. [...] >If you apply all that >pressure several times over, you're creating the proper mood for life as a >Renegade of the Game. There's a _reason_ why there are so few of them. The *best* thing to do is find a way to shatter your Heart and make it look like you hit soul-death... Who would look for someone dead, after all? And Limbo is very nice this time of year. At 7:01 PM -0500 1/10/99, David Edelstein wrote: >[...] If Kobal goes out of his way to personally >splatter some angels of Jean, then Jean will go out of his way to >personally vaporize some demons of Dark Humor. And you thought the Smoking Boots (of Paranoia Fame) were *Vapulan*. Don't go out in thunderstorms. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:57:26 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Gabriel's servants warning slight Final trumpet spoiler At 7:54 AM -0500 1/8/99, dahak wrote: >Do characters get some advantage for fulfilling their Wyrd [Fate/Destiny]? I am not sure what you mean, but I think not -- however, it does *draw* them. I suppose that fate and destiny are rooted deeply in who the person *is*, and are pre-destination primarily in the sense that you can predict what someone will do, if you understand them *completely*. >I was under the impression that in IN Fates and Destinies were the most >and least godly things you could achieve. Not that you were going to do so. No, you do not *have* to achieve it. But Thor and Jormungandr #1: are ethereals, not humans, and #2: have entertwined Wyrds. In a sense, you could call it part of Thor's "Word," that he was the slayer-to-be of Jormungandr. So just as you ask Novalis to help you with plant-related problems, you ask Thor to help with Jormungandr-related problems. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:19:18 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Destiny\Fate of Angels\Demons At 10:41 AM -0500 1/8/99, David Edelstein wrote: >Personally, I think Destinies and Fates are >general rather than specific; a human's Fate might be to die in prison for >murdering someone, but it's not "kill Bill Johnson with a steak knife over >an argument over who will pick up the check and die in prison because of >it" (implying that if he kills someone other than Bill Johnson, or kills >Bill Johnson with a beer stein or over an argument about a woman, he hasn't >met his Fate). For what it's worth, that's exactly the sort of thing that I've been figuring on. (Which is why if a celestial destiny is "become Word-bound," I'd never say *which* Word.) [...] >whereas a celestial gets a new one every time he experiences a state-change >(e.g. Redeeming or Falling), meaning that while it is an angel's Fate to >Fall, upon Falling he then gains the Destiny of Redeeming. >Likewise, even >if it's an angel's Destiny to become an Archangel, becoming an Archangel >doesn't mean he's now incapable of meeting his Fate, since even an >Archangel can Fall. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:56:49 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Discord and Rites At 6:26 AM -0500 1/9/99, dahak wrote: [Good Gods, dahak, use traditional ">" for quoting!!! This is all but illegible!] >-----Original Message----- >Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:35:33 +0000 >From: Kevin Walsh >On Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 11:52:54AM -0500, dahak wrote: >>I doubt it. The dissonance will probably give them the Paranoia Discord, >>if they haven't got it already. I doubt the average Renegade would bet a >>penny that an Archangel would redeem them if they found that penny on the >>street. All that propaganda they've been fed all their lives is bound to >>have an effect. >IPG: p107 and 108 on Servants of the game and discord: The discords that >enhance dissonance are considered dangerous, since they increase the >chances of picking up a bad i.e. good discord >IPG : p105 The selfless discord is a plausible outcome from a divine >intervention on a dissonance check. IPG, p. 206: "...a demon who gains dissonance from [...] selfish reasons is rarely on the pathway to Heaven..." and "his personality may begin to change. [...]" Denial...Disloyalty...False Discord...Fanaticism... Overcompensation. >How does Asmodeus know whether you've gone renegade or not if your heart >hasn't broken? He does visit all his Servitors every month... If they have Hearts, at least. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:04:55 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Re: Gamesters and Dissonance Conditions (Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1084) At 7:54 AM -0500 1/8/99, dahak wrote: >I still see direct as in Asmodeus has to give you orders in person. >Not via some message system. Simple and removes the problem you don't like. If it's live and real-time, or direct like the Celestial Song of Tongues, then it's direct enough for me. >Or can he reduce any of his minions to a puddle just by putting out an >announcement across a montage of video screens? Yup. >What happens if I don't receive the celestial tongues message? That doesn't happen except under *EXTREME* circumstances. ("I'm very sorry, Dread Lord, but I was talking with someone I suspect was Lucifer, and I didn't get your Celestial Tongues message.") >Say I'm in conversation with another superior or am within an ethereal >shield. Ethereal Shields only guard against attacks, not communications. If the other Superior blocks it, then it just arrives late. >The below would have to be report to me by time since if I report to >someone in Hades or some location called Hades, I've met the order. If it's in demonic, you know full well that Hades is 'Halls of Loyalty.' Hair-splitting with Asmodeus is both dangerous and hard to do. >It still doesn't answer whether IF Asmodeus tells you to do something >several times and report in is the same thing. I'd say it's not. Each individual order is a new individual order. (And even if they weren't, he could make them individual easily enough so why bother weasle-wording?) >Whether you suffer >dissonance for each separately or once for having disobeyed, one collected >set of orders. Separately, if you ask me... If it's one long list of instructions, then it's just one order and one note of dissonance for breaking the chain there. If it's one order repeated exactly the same, within a second or two of each other, then it's one order. Separate it into something every few minutes, and it's definitely separate. At 1:22 PM +0000 1/8/99, Kevin Walsh wrote: >On Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 07:54:40AM -0500, dahak wrote: >> I still see direct as in Asmodeus has to give you orders in person. >> Not via some message system. Simple and removes the problem you don't like. >> >It may be simple, but to me it doesn't make sense. I might add that I >always interpreted it as having superior with a small 's', so that it >included your supervisor, and everybody else above you in the chain of >command. It forces plotting underlings to be indirect, and to follow the >rules to the letter, which is a good thing for atmosphere, IMO. Asmodeus dissonance conditions are, I quote, "by disobeying any of his direct orders or by helping a renegade to escape judgment." Your immediate superior is fair game for disobeying. Your Prince's Word is your life and breath. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:03:06 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words At 7:39 PM +0100 1/9/99, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: >On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: >> Yeah -- it's a least bad alternative. I bet Jean is thinking "I >> wish those social choice theorists would get off there lazy >> fat duffs and hurry up and invent applied Pareto engineering. >> The social forms they could then invent could win mankind as >> much as a 27.3% increase in median social welfare!" > >I was under the impression that Jean portioned out scientific advances at >a measured pace - basically giving us what we're ready for. I guess that, >in his and Yves' opinion, we're not ready for a better society. Actually, I suspect the reasons would be that the techniques and technologies that would create a Better Society -- would create a Worse one if used wrongly, and Jean's pretty sure that humans would use it wrongly at this time. (For a GURPS Space game, we actually created a culture that was "socially engineered" -- and frankly, the level of "Big Brother Libertairenism" in that society would *freak* me. Instead of age limits to get to things, they have Psychological-Emotional-Maturity tests (PEMs) which everyone takes for granted will be both used wisely and not mocked, and will make sure that they don't see things they wouldn't want to see anyway. I would never let any current Earthly government dictate such things to me...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:06:14 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Vessels, Pt Cost, and Limbo (was: Discord and Rites) I haven't decided about where I stand on this issue but here a few things which popped into my head on the matter. Corporeals (you can have Celestials and Ethereals so why not!) with more forces tend to be more complex so mimicing the Vessel of one with may be more difficult and therefore require more Essence. In Solitare in IPG I seem to remember that a certain demon (I've lent out IPG and can't find the main book so I can't check) was so desperate to get back to earth quickly that the best Vessel he could get was a dog with a leg missing (or something). This could suggest that it costs less essence to create than a human (or it could be due to some wierd vessel allocation system, or it could be due to Haagenti's sense of humor [I think the demon worked for him], etc, etc) The reason why most DPs provide v. few animal vessels is because humans are so much more useful (generally). Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:42:16 -0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words - -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth McCoy >Instead of age >limits to get to things, they have Psychological-Emotional-Maturity >tests (PEMs) which everyone takes for granted will be both used wisely >and not mocked, and will make sure that they don't see things they >wouldn't want to see anyway. > >I would never let any current Earthly government dictate such things >to me...) > I would. As long as they used the same tests to decide who got to be allowed to stand for government elections ;) jo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:44:16 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words > Actually, I suspect the reasons would be that the techniques and > technologies that would create a Better Society -- would create a > Worse one if used wrongly, and Jean's pretty sure that humans would > use it wrongly at this time. > > (For a GURPS Space game, we actually created a culture that was > "socially engineered" -- and frankly, the level of "Big Brother > Libertairenism" in that society would *freak* me. Instead of age > limits to get to things, they have Psychological-Emotional-Maturity > tests (PEMs) which everyone takes for granted will be both used wisely > and not mocked, and will make sure that they don't see things they > wouldn't want to see anyway. > > I would never let any current Earthly government dictate such things > to me...) Read Brave New World. You only react to the mind altering and controlling effects of the Government in question because you are coming at it from the outside, where the culture you hail from emphasizes individuality uber alles. Had you come from it from within, you would find this a perfectly acceptable practice - along with all the other social engineering which happens within the confines of a Big Brother culture. Furthermore, you would never understand how one could live _without_ the social engineering. How would you ever get along? Who would make sure you were happy? On an IN topic, we've dealt with this in Fiat. Shal-Mari has a certain amount of social and psychological engineering which goes along with the inhabitants - angels are bad, Malakim commit grievous acts of harm, Archangels are more nightmarish then Demon Princes, they watch your every move and every thought. In Heaven, there is no freedom since you have to conform to God's will. Is it true? Well..... not really, except the bit about the will of God. Do the kids believe it because it's fed to them from screaming television sets every day of their lives? Certainly. "Keep you doped with religion and sex and TV And you think you're so clever and classless and free But you're still fucking peasants as far as I can see A working class hero is something to be" - John Lennon, Working Class Hero - - Em Current Quote: "Pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding." - - Kahlil Gibran ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:00:46 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Re:IN product quality and tethers Martin Arnold wrote: > Well as you don't want to discuss it with me, or say anything helpful > perhaps it would be best if you just didn't bother. I can't say I > want to piss everybody off again! Thank you; I appreciate this. > So, any discussion regarding upcoming books (for example the current > debate about servants from the new LS) is only for Pyramid > subscribers. I didn't know this, perhaps you should have made this > clear. There is no such restriction. On the other hand, Pyramid playtesters clearly get more input into the actual, final book. Non-playtesters on the list can say, "Gee, I sure hope the upcoming book has feature X," and hope that this affects things indirectly. Earl ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1092 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.