From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jan 14 14:44:44 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA11343 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:44:44 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id OAA08422 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:25:47 -0600 Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:25:47 -0600 Message-Id: <199901142025.OAA08422@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1095 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, January 14 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1095 In this digest: Re: IN> IN - GURPS Re: IN> Missing Choir/Band Attunements Re: IN> IN - GURPS Re: IN> IN - GURPS Re: IN> IN - GURPS Re: IN> RE: tethers Re: IN> ADMIN: Don't Go Off Topic (Re: Re:IN product quality and tethers(some how got change to VtM)) Re: IN> IN - GURPS IN> tethers IN> Flavour of GURPS IN Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN Re: IN> RE: tethers Re: IN> Discord and Rites Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN Re: IN> Re:IN product quality and tethers Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN IN> .1 Million Mailing. Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN IN> ADMIN: I stomped this (Re: .1 Million Mailing.) Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN Re: IN> Some questions about 'The Game' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:53:47 -0600 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> IN - GURPS B.H. wrote: > Aaahhh.... When you make the second edition will you post the changes > so those of us who bought the 1st edition don't have to buy the same > book twice? Do what I do with other games; buy the 2nd Edition and give your copy of the 1st to a friend who you haven't been able to get interested in it. Maybe actually having the concept in front of them might get 'em hooked. Besides, with enough games, a new edition is so much better that I don't really mind; 4th Ed Champions and 5th Ed. Call of Cthulhu spring immediately to mind. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:56:56 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Missing Choir/Band Attunements Is there redundancy in Calabim of Technology being sort of uber-gremlins? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:02:42 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN - GURPS At 11:26 AM -0800 1/13/99, B.H. wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> >> At 3:51 AM -0800 1/13/99, Steel Angel wrote: > >> In its current form, it intrudes on the Choir Attunement of the >> Kyriotates of Destiny, and is #2 for Up Against The Wall when the >> APG finally sells out and I can make a 2nd ed of it. > >... What's #1? Falling Chapter. #3 is the Lilim-impersonating Mercurian table. Though errata may make #2 and #3 get up against the wall before #1 makes it. >> (I have a couple of replacement tables which allow some limited >> stuff, but none of this "access everything" nonsense -- Shedim >> are limited by having to "ooze" or make a lot of noise to possess >> someone, and they have to corrupt anyone they stay in for a day -- >> they can't just hop in silently and hop away again, like Kyrios can.) > >Aaahhh.... When you make the second edition will you post the changes >so those of us who bought the 1st edition don't have to buy the same >book twice? With the possible exception of the Falling Chapter, there will be errata notations for 1st edition when I finally manage to butcher it and put it back together. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:34:21 -0800 From: "B.H." Subject: Re: IN> IN - GURPS Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > At 11:26 AM -0800 1/13/99, B.H. wrote: > >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> > >> At 3:51 AM -0800 1/13/99, Steel Angel wrote: > > > >> In its current form, it intrudes on the Choir Attunement of the > >> Kyriotates of Destiny, and is #2 for Up Against The Wall when the > >> APG finally sells out and I can make a 2nd ed of it. > > > >... What's #1? > > Falling Chapter. #3 is the Lilim-impersonating Mercurian table. > Though errata may make #2 and #3 get up against the wall before > #1 makes it. > Hmm... I'm letting one of the other players in the campaign I'm in borrow my APG. What's wrong with the the table and the Falling stuff? > >> (I have a couple of replacement tables which allow some limited > >> stuff, but none of this "access everything" nonsense -- Shedim > >> are limited by having to "ooze" or make a lot of noise to possess > >> someone, and they have to corrupt anyone they stay in for a day -- > >> they can't just hop in silently and hop away again, like Kyrios can.) > > > >Aaahhh.... When you make the second edition will you post the changes > >so those of us who bought the 1st edition don't have to buy the same > >book twice? > > With the possible exception of the Falling Chapter, there will be > errata notations for 1st edition when I finally manage to butcher > it and put it back together. > > --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor > GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ - -- Brian A.H. "I am Don Arturo de Los Angeles. I am the greatest reader of all time. I have read over a million books in my lifetime, and their pages flow through my mind like summer days..." Phoenix Clan Purifier*Gaijin*Shugenja*ABC Geeky Shugenja Man*Totoroan L5R(1.1) PX+ S(LA) G++ R Y+ C+ E+ M-- T-- D++ K U+++ L5R(R1.3) GP++ (PR+++ CC++) RP+ GT:! P+ PX/LN+ S++ G+++ R Y+ C++ CG++ U+++ J---- ABC(1.0) PX/ABC++(ic, anyways. =)) S(LA) Y+ A++ D++ BO/OC!N!++++(nosebleed) P+++ U++ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:16:16 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> IN - GURPS In a message dated 1/13/99 6:04:11 AM Central Standard Time, steelangel@cruzers.com writes: > > Ramesh, the advanced Resonance tables are in a few cases > (Kyrio!) > > some of the most broken parts of IN; heck, even I noticed it, and most > > of the things other people think are bugs in IN mechanics I think are > > features. :) > > Just what do you believe is wrong with the Kyrio advanced resonance? It > seemed to follow pretty well to me. The kyriotate can find out how to > keep its host in good shape and maybe access some of the memories and > skills. They obviously have this potential, since shedim can do it > naturally. > > - Abracax, Shedite of Riots I agree. This is also balanced by the fact that the Kyrio in question has to make a rather difficult roll, and still might not get much info if the check digit is low. The ones who work for Yves have still got a very sweet deal by comparison. Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:48:34 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> RE: tethers Martin Arnold wrote on 13 January 1999 >That's the goal; and it seems very realistic - although I haven't >anything for Blandine or Beleth yet. Maybe the Millennium Dome will >tether to Dreams, I'm not sure. What about Stone or Factions? (Depending on how successful it is) Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:42:59 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> ADMIN: Don't Go Off Topic (Re: Re:IN product quality and tethers(some how got change to VtM)) sorry Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:56:38 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN - GURPS At 1:34 PM -0800 1/13/99, B.H. wrote: >> Falling Chapter. #3 is the Lilim-impersonating Mercurian table. >> Though errata may make #2 and #3 get up against the wall before >> #1 makes it. > >Hmm... I'm letting one of the other players in the campaign I'm in >borrow my APG. What's wrong with the the table and the Falling stuff? One of the expanded Mercurian tables basically impersonates the Lilim resonance. The Falling chapter has several inconsistancies with the feel of the line and conflicts with things stated elsewhere. (Elsewhere in the same book, even, IIRC.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:43:35 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> tethers >>>I'm surprised people didn't like numerical details. Why is that? Is it not a helpful yardstick?<<< Because if you include numerical details, the numbers will inevitably conflict with what someone else came up with in their campaign, and then you'll get people ranting about how canon sucks because it forces them to follow it or throw it out of their campaign... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 01:51:43 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN Walter Milliken wrote: > (Yes, for those who haven't >seen the chat session with Dr. Kromm yet, Elizabeth and I are currently >writing the GURPS conversion of In Nomine.) Currently we've got most of >the Choirs and Bands done, and a lot of the other character-creation >material in notes. > Mechanics aside, Walter, how about flavour? Is the conversion going to be any 'darker' than IN itself or are you trying to capture the feel 'as is'? I suppose that this will depend upon all manner of things not the least of which is what you feel to be the main reason that folk will buy the book. Personally, I'd be looking at running GURPS IN as a far grittier game (in fact, I'd more likely run a modern day GURPS campaign with varying amounts of GURPS IN thrown in), so I for one would _like_ to see a grim tone to it. :) Going back to what some folks were saying awhile ago about artwork, there was, IIRC, a distinct opinion to move IN away from a cartoony approach and present it with a more sinister look. Again, perhaps this would better suit the conversion? - -- Julian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 21:10:10 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN At 1:51 AM +0000 1/14/99, Julian Breen wrote: >Mechanics aside, Walter, how about flavour? [...] It will probably keep a fair amount of the original flavor. I hope. (Neither of us are fanatic about Dark Flavor -- however, I'm better at being twisted like that than he is, and I'm doing most of the flavor.) >Going back to what some folks were saying awhile ago about artwork, [...] We have little to no input on the art stuff. We aren't the artists, after all. O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 21:36:39 -0500 From: Ron Carnegie Subject: Re: IN> RE: tethers At 02:02 PM 1/13/99 EST, you wrote: >So libraries and museums can be Tethers to other things, if appropriate. >This is most likely with specialized libraries. Museums tend to be >specialized, anyway. For example, in my Boston campaign, the Museum of >Science there is a mostly-unused Tether to Jean. Other museums in the >area could easily be to Creation, War, the War, Freedom, etc. > I work for a Museum (Colonial Williamsburg) and can think of many different interpretaions for whose tether this may be (a lot of that depends upon how cynical I am at the time). On the other hand, these sort of thoughts have made me think I historical In Nomini game might be interesting set here with this was Virginia's Capital during America's Revolution. Cheers, Ron Carnegie rcarnegie@widomaker.com ************************************************* "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." G.M. Trevelyan ************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 01:19:12 -0500 (EST) From: Eslin Subject: Re: IN> Discord and Rites On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > Except for the Marches (which for many demons isn't an option) where do > Renegages go if not on Earth. Surely not Hell, they'd get caught way too > easily. Some of them go to Limbo. Some of them repent and crawl back to bootlick for forgiveness. Some of them go to other Princes and bootlick even harder. Most of them go to Forces-dismemberment land, I think. :) -- Es ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:24:46 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, Julian Breen wrote: > Mechanics aside, Walter, how about flavour? Is the conversion going to > be any 'darker' than IN itself or are you trying to capture the feel 'as > is'? I suppose that this will depend upon all manner of things not the > least of which is what you feel to be the main reason that folk will buy > the book. Personally, I'd be looking at running GURPS IN as a far > grittier game (in fact, I'd more likely run a modern day GURPS campaign > with varying amounts of GURPS IN thrown in), so I for one would _like_ > to see a grim tone to it. :) What I would like to see is something I think is missing in the original - notes on how to run different flavors of IN. You can run it dark, gritty and generally depressing; epic and heroic; paranoid and backstabbing; anime-style cinematic (Warrior-Nun Areala might give some inspiration for this); slapsticky and generally weird; fast-paced and action-oriented; philosohpical and angst-ridden; and so on. I think IN would benefit from some structured ideas on how to achieve different feels to the game. Yes, most GMs are pretty well equipped for doing this for themselves, but everyone needs ideas, right? Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:41:24 +0200 From: Yossi Gurvitz Subject: Re: IN> Re:IN product quality and tethers At 19:30 13/01/99 , you wrote: >That inspires another thought -- I wonder if it would be worthwhile to >put a book's table of contents up with the book's web page on the >SJGames site. This could be done about the time the book goes to the >printer. I, for one, would find it worthwhile to know what topics are discussed in the book; knowing that there *is* a chapter dealing with tethers and campaigns makes me more inclined to purchase it. Yours, Yossi ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:27:39 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN I second Anders's suggestion on tips for different flavors. I would *not* like to see IN steered preferentially toward the angsty or gritty, since these are not flavors I favor. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:56:15 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN Me neither, but since I don't play GURPS, it's no skin off my nose if people who can't cope with the hi-octane outrageous weirdness migrate to that instead. Anyway, I have discovered INS and a good French dictionary so I don't need to get my fix from SJG any more (if you can get hold of a copy, I _highly_ recommend it...) I thought Walter said he didn't like gritty/ dark games, though :-) jo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 00:11:39 +0900 From: beda51@corona.laa.com.au (broyeure) Subject: IN> .1 Million Mailing. 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Phone (561) 792-2097 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Removal from lists, go to http://3520611773/remove/ 21d56g4d - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - :1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:19:21 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN > I second Anders's suggestion on tips for different flavors. > I would *not* like to see IN steered preferentially toward > the angsty or gritty, since these are not flavors I favor. > I would like the published IN Canon to pick _a_ flavor. I don't care which one it is, as long as it's consistent starting today through to the end of time. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:27:56 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN > Me neither, but since I don't play GURPS, it's no skin off my nose if people > who can't cope with the hi-octane outrageous weirdness migrate to that > instead. Anyway, I have discovered INS and a good French dictionary so I > don't need to get my fix from SJG any more (if you can get hold of a copy, I > _highly_ recommend it...) > Em shakes Jo. "Where, man, WHERE? And can I get my French Nephilim fix from the same place?" I have currently no money, and I don't know a lick of French. But that has never stopped me before. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 99 10:49 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN >Mechanics aside, Walter, how about flavour? Is the conversion going to >be any 'darker' than IN itself or are you trying to capture the feel 'as >is'? Pretty much the current version, since the idea is for existing and future IN supplements to be useable with GURPS IN. Thus, it won't deviate much from the IN canon universe. There will be *some* changes, mostly due to mechanics issues. The main one is that humans are going to be significantly more powerful in some ways than in regular IN, since we're equating Essence with Fatigue, and humans get to use the regular Fatigue recovery rules, while celestials use roughly the current IN Essence recovery rules. Thus, humans have a *lot* more daily Essence to play with than celestials do. This makes Soldiers a bit more powerful, and makes Impudites a bit more useful. It will also make a lot of celestials want to have human Soldier servants, to give them Essence; we'll have to do something about this, probably. > I suppose that this will depend upon all manner of things not the >least of which is what you feel to be the main reason that folk will buy >the book. There are several answers to that question -- some will be GURPS players who want to add celestials to an existing campaign, some will probably be people who like the IN concept but not the game mechanics. We're supposed to be supporting both, but the background material will probably be more than half the book. > Personally, I'd be looking at running GURPS IN as a far >grittier game (in fact, I'd more likely run a modern day GURPS campaign >with varying amounts of GURPS IN thrown in), so I for one would _like_ >to see a grim tone to it. :) I don't think it will go that direction, necessarily. On the other hand, you can mix in GURPS Illuminati or Black Ops for that.... We'll probably put in some suggestions to that effect in one of the campaign-style sidebars. >Going back to what some folks were saying awhile ago about artwork, >there was, IIRC, a distinct opinion to move IN away from a cartoony >approach and present it with a more sinister look. >Again, perhaps this would better suit the conversion? Artwork is chosen by the SJGames art director, not the authors. We have only very limited input into it. And frankly, I *like* Smif's In Nomine work. In this case, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the existing IN art was recycled in the GURPS IN book. We do expect the Superior pictures to be re-used, at least. Though it won't be in color.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 99 10:52 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN >What I would like to see is something I think is missing in the original - >notes on how to run different flavors of IN. You can run it dark, gritty >and generally depressing; epic and heroic; paranoid and backstabbing; >anime-style cinematic (Warrior-Nun Areala might give some inspiration for >this); slapsticky and generally weird; fast-paced and action-oriented; >philosohpical and angst-ridden; and so on. There actually is some of this stuff in the back of the main book. However, I don't think we'll be able to spare much room for this -- the page budget is tight just covering the basic core book material. There will be some sidebars on using GURPS IN in *other* campaign settings, at a minimum. I'm not sure what more one could say that would be useful beyond what's in the current main IN book, without going into a serious dissertation of multiple pages. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 99 10:55 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN >I thought Walter said he didn't like gritty/ dark games, though :-) That's true enough. GURPS IN will probably have a more realistic feel, at least, since it will be moving into a rules system than favors that. To some extent, that may make it a bit darker and grittier, since combat will be somewhat nastier. (Also, celestials probably won't have enormously-higher hit points than humans, though the occasional combat-monster may have bought a lot of Extra Hit Points.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:53:42 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> ADMIN: I stomped this (Re: .1 Million Mailing.) I have sent email to the appropriate places. Don't quote all of it and gripe to the list. It doesn't do anything but generate more wasted bandwidth. - --Beth, Demon Princess of Nitpicking http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Demons/Prince.Beth.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:05:10 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, Emily Dresner wrote: > > > I second Anders's suggestion on tips for different flavors. > > I would *not* like to see IN steered preferentially toward > > the angsty or gritty, since these are not flavors I favor. > > > > I would like the published IN Canon to pick _a_ flavor. I don't care > which one it is, as long as it's consistent starting today through to > the end of time. Well, that would be the second best alternative, IMO. *inspiration strikes* Hey! Perhaps the Revelations Cycle was just all a big joke? Any minute now SJ will jump out and thumb his nose, going "Oh, you silly sods! Did you really believe all that?!". ;) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:35:30 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN I agree 100% with Anders. I like the fact that IN can be played loads of different ways. I like dark and gritty games but I also love the epic heroic flavour of IN and they're not always 100% compatible I'm not much of a GURPSer but one of the things I think is pretty cool about it is the fact that they often give you one standard way of doing things and then give you dozens of variantions on that standard way. Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:45:05 -0600 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN Walter Milliken wrote: > The main one is that humans are going to be significantly more powerful > in some ways than in regular IN, since we're equating Essence with > Fatigue, and humans get to use the regular Fatigue recovery rules, while > celestials use roughly the current IN Essence recovery rules. Thus, > humans have a *lot* more daily Essence to play with than celestials do. > This makes Soldiers a bit more powerful, and makes Impudites a bit more > useful. It will also make a lot of celestials want to have human > Soldier servants, to give them Essence; we'll have to do something about > this, probably. This is a decision I don't think I like. I don't see Essence and Fatigue as being at all the same thing. Witness, for instance, that humans are very often running around without any of it. Essence isn't something as mundane as Fatigue; it implies and provides a connection to the Symphony rather than just to inner strength. I have a number of specific objections, but their is an important flavor or meaning of Essence that is lost if it's treated this way. Granted, I don't have a good idea of how else to do it; I've now played two sessions in my first GURPS campaign, so I'm not very familiar with it yet. OTOH, I do like the idea that Celestials will actually have to worry about fatigue; makes that Ofanite of Faith attunement I wrote more worthwhile. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 15:21:20 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Some questions about 'The Game' >But your partner gets 2 Essence at dusk, and can give you one -- if >at no other time, then when you let Humanity lapse for a few seconds >to accept the Essence. > "Partner"? Did I miss something? Are Asmodeus's demons usually in pairs? - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "...Love is kind...love never fails...." 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1095 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.